The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus. King of ♥ ♦ ♣ ♠ 09:52, 15 May 2014 (UTC) reply

Rati Tsiteladze

Rati Tsiteladze (  | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log · Stats)

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The page was deleted not so long ago after AfD but the subsequent speedy deletion of the repost was declined because references were added. I think the issues brought up in the original AfD with respect to notability and quality of references are still valid. I will say that the new poster has made significant effort to improve their original prose and also there is quite a bit of discussion/question about notability on the Talk page. Peter Rehse ( talk) 09:42, 17 April 2014 (UTC) reply

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Martial arts-related deletion discussions. Peter Rehse ( talk) 09:42, 17 April 2014 (UTC) reply

I have read and understood that as an Entertainer the subject of my article meets the criteria of the Guidelines. In guidelines it is written that the Entertainers - Actors, voice actors, comedians, opinion makers, models, and celebrities: are notable if they •Has had a significant role in multiple notable films, television shows, stage performances, or other productions. •Has a large fan base or a significant "cult" following. •Has made unique, prolific or innovative contributions to a field of entertainment.

Which means that the participant of ‘’Dancing with the Stars’’ can be considered as notable because it is a television show and performance was taking place on the stage of Tbilisi Philharmonia Concert Hall. The subject of my article have also had a leading role in film “Dark Side’’ produced and directed by him and has been a subject of two major TV Channels in Georgia which are Imedi TV and Rustavi 2. He became notable in Georgia because of his sport achievements and his role in the film, therefore he was invited in ‘’Dancing with the Stars’’ as a star – as a notable/famous person in Georgia. Usually they only invite notable people in such kind of TV shows: The stars are being chosen and it is by invitation not a casting: (I have provided with the episodes of Dancing with The Stars in reference list) He also has a large fan base or a significant "cult” I mean Official Facebook Fun Page. I still don't understand why do you take it to AfD. After original AfD there was a big change in references which are articles published in official inter media and are far from blogs. I've seen many articles with only two references but even those articles are not Afd. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sofiamar ( talk • contribs) 10:14, 17 April 2014 (UTC) reply

Please note that it's not your article. Nevertheless, I'm inclined to say Keep this one. He's obviously not going to have a lot of English-language coverage, but I think the multiple international sports championships along with the film and television career push him over the line into notability. GoldenRing ( talk) 11:25, 17 April 2014 (UTC) reply

I found the comments on the first AfD quite instructive. Peter Rehse ( talk) 12:10, 17 April 2014 (UTC) reply

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Georgia (country)-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k ( talk) 14:30, 17 April 2014 (UTC) reply

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Sportspeople-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k ( talk) 14:30, 17 April 2014 (UTC) reply

{GoldenRing} Please be informed that your note has been taken and your comment about the English-language can only motivate me and push me for improvement for which I have to thank you. With regards to instructive comments on the first AFD allow me to discuss, go through the comments step by step and provide with the qualitative information. User WikiDan61 was saying that Non-notable athlete, actor and model. Claims of notability as an athlete (kickboxing world championship in Egypt, 2008 and Karate European Champion in Lithuania, 2009) cannot be verified as no indication is given as to what sanctioning bodies awarded such titles (nor can any indication be found that such championships were held by any of the major sanctioning bodies). It should be noted that the subject's photograph shows him wearing a championship belt inscribed with the date November 2007, but the rest of the belt cannot be read to ascertain what championship it was.

I understand his point because that time there was no qualitative references and details provided and the belt which WikiDan61 was talking about was the belt of the national league of Georgian martial arts GEO-FIGHT ( Rati was the captain of Geo-Fight Team) Awarded by the most prestigious international federation “World gold belt” This time I have provided with the verification and information which was not provided before. Please find below Information About world championship: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File%3ARati_Tsiteladze_with_World_Champion's_belt_and_other_awards_obtained_in_2008.gif http://www.muaythaitv.com/events/wasko-world-kickboxing-championship-e495.html http://forums.sherdog.com/forums/f42/wasko-world-championships-749763/ Also you can find WASKO ON “Liste d'organisations de kick boxing” European Championship

Below you can find the information of federation/when and where the championship was held and the pictures/evidence of winning (Due to his success he was even accompanied by the Chairman of the Department of sport and youth affairs of Georgia)

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Rati_Tsiteladze_and_Chairman_of_the_Department-of-sport_Irakli_Dolaberidze.jpg ; https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:First_Place_European_Champion_Rati_Tsiteladze.JPG ; https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Winners-of-European-championshp-in-Kyokushin-2009.jpg ; https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:European_Kyokushin-Shinkyokushin_karate_championship_-_Lithuania_-_2009.jpg ; http://www.kyokarate.hu/keres1_en.html?id=1150 ; /info/en/?search=Kyokushin .

Admission of Rati Tsiteladze on international Tournaments http://www.geotimes.ge/index.php?newsid=15119&lang=eng ; http://www.adjaratv.ge/ge/index.php?page=shownews&id=9142 ; http://www.georgianews.ge/sports/2534-i-owe-my-success-to-my-failure.html ; http://www.geotimes.ge/index.php?m=home&newsid=12354 ;

Wikidan61 also said that as for the subject's acting and modeling career, it is limited to an appearance… Well if it was limited in his opinion I can provide you with the evidence of two Major Modeling agencies in Dubai http://divadubai.com/search_detail.php?mod_id=13170&search_for=models&category=1&session_value=13170&session_index=0 http://www.emodels.me/search.php?search=Rati+Tsi+-+13006&match_type=all

Which was also not provided before as evidence and maybe you can have your own sense of judgment this time. In addition please note that Rati has IMDB credits which were not provided before as well. I hope you have an idea of what IMDB is for filmmaking industry.

The last comment of Wikidan61 was (win? loss? kicked out before he started? on the Georgian version of Dancing with the Stars, and a non-specific modeling career in Dubai.

Obviously it was not mentioned in previous article that the show premiered on October 8, 2012 and after 10 weeks Rati finished in 5th place and I have provided with the details and the episodes in reference list.With regards to none specific modeling career in Dubai I already provided the evidence and his Facebook Fun page https://www.facebook.com/RatiTsiteladze Has 191,000 fans which is statistically on the first place (in sport category) in Georgia followed by the Georgian National Rugby Team with 119,000 fans only https://www.facebook.com/OfficialGeorgiaRugby

Which speaks a lot about notability - Please note that the fun page of Rati Tsiteladze is just about one person while the other page is about Georgian National Rugby Team – even though rugby is considered as the first sport in Georgia.

I hope you understand that there have been many improvements in tone, details, references and evidence after the first Afd and will decide to keep this one. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sofiamar ( talk • contribs) 00:07, 18 April 2014 (UTC) reply

• Weak Delete He's not notable as a kickboxer--amateur kickboxing is specifically identified as not showing notability and WASKO is amateur. He's won no notable titles. Facebook followers are not a sign of notability. My search found lots of videos, but a lack of significant independent coverage. Mdtemp ( talk) 18:30, 22 April 2014 (UTC) reply

• Comment On the belt it is clearly written World All Styles Kickboxing Organization not World Amateur Kickboxing Sport Organization. You can see on the link that I have provided that in that year there was an Amateur and Professional championships held at the same time and he won WK1(Professional) And if the Facebook Followers are not sign of notability could you please be kind and tell me what below sentence mean?

•Has a large fan base or a significant "cult" following. (Mentioned In entertainers Notability)

The bottom line is that he doesn't meet the kickboxing notability criteria at WP:KICK and Facebook can't be considered a reliable source for anything. Mdtemp ( talk) 15:27, 24 April 2014 (UTC) reply

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, King of ♥ ♦ ♣ ♠ 00:12, 24 April 2014 (UTC) reply

• Delete Fails WP:KICK and appearing on the Georgian version of Dancing with the Stars is not enough to show notability (I know the U.S. version has a generous definition of "star"). 204.126.132.231 ( talk) 15:44, 25 April 2014 (UTC) reply

It doesn't fail anything and by the way Georgia is also a country on this universe and saying that Georgian version doesn't have a generous definition of Star but U.S does is just highlighting your racism... I don't see anything like that written anywhere in Wikipedia policy or guidelines. And also logging in with different user names or IP address in order to place your opinion hundred times here, doesn't meet wikipedia policies and guidlines. -- Sofiamar ( talk) 20:29, 25 April 2014 (UTC) reply

I appreciate that English is not your first language and the use of the word "generous" above is a little subtle but basically it means that in the US show they use the word "star" too easily. He believes the Georgian version of the show is probably no better. Don't play the racism card - no one has any time for that. Peter Rehse ( talk) 20:51, 25 April 2014 (UTC) reply

I apologize for misunderstanding. In Georgia it is very important TV Show because if in U.S there are hundreds of TV Shows and series in Georgia is only few of them and Whole country is watching. They cannot really have a generous definition of "star" Because people know who is notable and who is not. I am not an expert in sport but I found evidence of his fighting in kickboxing (You can check) https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:FIGHTING_ROOKIES_-_K-1_-_2010.jpg https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Professional_K-1_Championship_-_Copy.jpg ; https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Favorite_stunt_of_World_%26_European_Champion.gif ; https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Another_Victory_of_World_Champion.gif ; However it is not just about kickboxing but many other styles of martial arts: http://www.geotimes.ge/index.php?newsid=15119&lang=eng , and it is about the person who has many achievements in Sport, TV and Film industry https://www.mashpedia.com/Rati_Tsiteladze .

The criteria for being a notable kickboxer can be found at WP:KICK. He doesn't seem to meet any of them. Sofiamar, you should be aware that you are violating WP:CIVIL when you call other editors racist and sockpuppets. Papaursa ( talk) 01:15, 27 April 2014 (UTC) reply

• Comment He doesn't appear to be a notable kickboxer since he doesn't meet any of the criteria at WP:KICK. Besides kickboxing the article claims he has won multiple international championships in full contact karate (besides Kyokushin), Shorin-ryu Shidokan, neko ryu, Goju-Ryu, and sanda. If reliable independent sources for all of these championships can be found I'd say he likely passes WP:MANOTE, but the claims are not referenced. I would even say an argument could be made for keeping the article if reliable sources could be found for him being a 4 time European champion in Kyokushin. The only source for those is an invitation to the under 22 championship and that doesn't show he won (plus junior events are not generally considered sufficient to show notability). As far as being a notable entertainer goes, that's not really my area of expertise, but I'd say appearing on Dancing with the Stars doesn't show notability just like being an MMA fighter on The Ultimate Fighter fails to grant notability. I also have no idea what constitutes notability for a model. I'm not voting, at least not yet, because I want the author to have a chance to document those international championships in a wide variety of styles and because I am not sure about notability as a model. Papaursa ( talk) 01:15, 27 April 2014 (UTC) reply

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, NorthAmerica ¹⁰⁰⁰ 03:26, 3 May 2014 (UTC) reply

• Keep Article has been edited and cleaned up by the professional editor. Article has been linked to other pages so it is no longer an orphan. Tone, wording and English Language coverage has been improved. More reliable sources has been added.-- Sofiamar ( talk) 20:37, 4 May 2014 (UTC) reply

• Comment His name in Georgian is "რატი წითელაძე". -- Moscow Connection ( talk) 21:20, 4 May 2014 (UTC) reply

I still don't see independent sources about the multiple international championships in most of those disciplines. I also must admit the Georgian TV clips are useless to me. I take it the "universal fighter" award is given to the person deemed the best all-around fighter in Georgia, though it's never explained. Papaursa ( talk) 22:01, 4 May 2014 (UTC) reply

• Weak Keep I have removed unsourced claims and sourced some specific claims in the article. I'm still not convinced he meets WP:MANOTE and I found the Georgian Times interview with his coach, Kakhaber Markozashvili, to be poor journalism since he identified as a martial arts expert without identifying him as his coach. However, I do think a reasonable case can be made for him meeting WP:GNG and while I think a reasonable case can be made for deletion, I also think a reasonable case can be made for keeping the article so I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt. Papaursa ( talk) 00:52, 8 May 2014 (UTC) reply
• Keep - Multiple international sports championships coupled with his film and television career make him notable, as GoldenRing pointed out. - AuthorAuthor ( talk) 19:17, 9 May 2014 (UTC) reply

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.