The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus. Again. I'm procedurally renominating the article with an editing restriction; see the forthcoming third AfD. Sandstein 14:02, 6 June 2020 (UTC) reply

Plav-Gusinje massacres (1912-13)

Plav-Gusinje massacres (1912-13) (  | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log · Stats)

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The issues outlined in the previous deletion discussion still haven't been resolved. The article relies heavily on synthesis of sources (some reliable, others not) to reach a certain conclusion, namely that the wartime suffering of Albanians and Bosniaks in Plav and Gusinje was part of some larger massacre in which 1,800 were killed and 12,000 displaced. The killings described in this article would make this alleged massacre one of the largest of the Balkan Wars. Proponents of keeping the article during the previous discussion invariably resorted to arguing that there WP:THEREMUSTBESOURCES and " but it's true!". Yet, there are no non-Balkan sources that unequivocally describe a massacre as having taken place, and the entire premise thus fails WP:V.

As before, I propose a compromise solution, which is to describe the instances of forced conversions and displacement (which almost certainly took place) in the history sections of the Plav and Gusinje articles, as well as Albanians of Montenegro and Bosniaks of Montenegro. This way, we aren't falling into the original research and synthesis trap that currently plagues this problem-riddled article. Amanuensis Balkanicus ( talk) 18:02, 22 May 2020 (UTC) reply

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Montenegro-related deletion discussions. Amanuensis Balkanicus ( talk) 18:02, 22 May 2020 (UTC) reply

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Serbia-related deletion discussions. Amanuensis Balkanicus ( talk) 18:02, 22 May 2020 (UTC) reply

• Delete as nominator. Amanuensis Balkanicus ( talk) 18:02, 22 May 2020 (UTC) reply
  • @ Amanuensis Balkanicus: Your support is already assumed, there is zero reason for you to add this. ★Trekker ( talk) 20:17, 4 June 2020 (UTC) reply
• Support highly selective merge while reviewing the DYK ( Template:Did you know nominations/Plav-Gusinje massacres (1912-13)), I unfortunately found that several of the sources do not meet WP:RS. I think that the article creator is acting in good faith but it's important to use high quality sources when writing about ethnic conflicts. b uidh e 18:19, 22 May 2020 (UTC) reply

I agree that the article creators are acting in good faith and many of their contributions to Wikipedia have been extremely positive, which is commendable. I wouldn't categorize this as a WP:HOAX. But as Wikipedians we have to abide by certain parameters, including WP:V, and do our best to avoid WP:SYNTH and WP:OR. Unfortunately, this article doesn't pass that threshold. Amanuensis Balkanicus ( talk) 18:24, 22 May 2020 (UTC) reply

I'll be copying the arguments about the bibliography from the previous AfD (with some changes), because not much has changed:

• The sources do discuss this topic extensively, so it is notable. I will take some time to discuss some of the RS claims about the article, not because that discussion is related to this procedure, but because I just want to reply to the allegations by Balkanicus. Rexhep Dedushaj, is a historian from Gusinje whose book is on its 4th edition offline. It is regularly used as bibliography by historians like Marenglen Verli, member of the Academy of Sciences of Albania in his work about Plav/Plav-Gusinje/Gucia (it has full bibliographical details - I used the same). Premović's article was published in Almanah, which is a peer-reviewed journal that is hosted online on CEEOL, a leading provider of academic e-journals and e-books in the Humanities and Social Sciences from and about Central and Eastern Europe., from where I got the citation. If Balkanicus wants to discuss about CEEOL or Almanah or Premović, there's RSN about that.

• The two sources in English don't just "mention" these events. The BalkanInsight article was written specifically about this topic. Full quote: More than 2,000 Bosniaks and ethnic Albanians prayed together to mark the 100th anniversary of what they allege was genocide against their ancestors. The collective religious ritual took place on Tuesday, in the municipality of Plav in eastern Montenegro, to mark the anniversary of mass killings of Bosniaks and Albanians nearby 100 years ago. Bosniak organisations claim that more than 1,800 Muslims from Plav and the nearby municipality of Gusinje were killed and more than 12,000 of them forcibly converted to Christianity during the 1912-13 Balkan wars.

• Sabina Pacariz, also in the bibliography of the article writes: President Filip Vujanović joined the cerenomy, where he stated the crimes performed in Plav and Gusinje are the dark side of the Montenegrin history and later she also writes: On 5 March 2013, in a joint organisation of the Islamic Community of Montenegro together with the Islamic Community and Cultural Centre of Plav and Gusinje in New York, Janazah—a funeral prayer in the sports hall in Plav was organised. Under the name 'Vakat zuluma' (the times of tyranny), the prayer was performed to mark the passing of 100 years from the forceful conversions and killing of Albanians and Bosniaks in Plav and Gusinje in the years 1912-1913. Approximately 2,500 Albanians and Bosniaks from Montenegro, Serbia, Kosovo, Bosnia and Herzegovina and from the usa joined the funeral prayer.

• Elsie-Destani have published documents from the Balkan Wars and WWI about the situation of the Albanians in the Balkans. The fact that there are extensive primary documents that mention even the names of those killed in these events only proves its notability even more, it doesn't diminish it.

• Full quote from Galaty, Michael; Lafe, Ols; Lee, Wayne; Tafilica, Zamir (2013). Light and Shadow: Isolation and Interaction in the Shala Valley of Northern Albania. The Cotsen Institute of Archaeology Press. ISBN  1931745714. which I still haven't had the time to add in the article: Warfield's letter also addressed the claim, made at the time by Edith Durham, that the Montenegrins were persecuting Albanians who lived in their territory and driving them out of their villages. He reported that 2000 Albanians had come over the mountains from Gusinje and Plav and were refugees in Shkodra. [William Warfield was Director of the Red Cross Unit in Albania in the Balkan Wars]
• Full quote (to establish the notability of the event - not as a source to be used because secondary modern bibliography, already in the article, explains the same event in much detail): In the primary sources of the era about the region this massacre appears in many of them. Rebecca West was a famed travel writer of her age. In the book, Black Lamb and Grey Falcon she specifically [link to blacklisted site removed] writes] just about the village of Plav (not the region as a whole): An unfortunate contretemps occurred here during the Balkan War. When Montenegro captured the village of Plav from the Turks in 1912, they were greatly aided by a local Moslem priest, who joined the Orthodox Church and was appointed a major in the Montenegrin Army. His first action when left unsupervised was to hold a court-martial on his former congregation and to shoot all those who refused to be baptized. They numbered, it is said, five hundred. She is referring to Mulla Hajro Basic/Basha/Bashiqi who changed his named Balsa Balsic for a certain amount of money and was used by the Montenegrin army as a "local judge" to condemn many locals to death.
• News reports in the local press: Memorial of the first person who was killed in the massacre. [1]. List of the 700 who were killed in total in Previ [2]
• About the forceful conversions and the beginning of the events: Kolë Krasniqi, Islamist Extremism in Kosovo and the Countries of the Region, p.19
• About the total number of casualties: Jusuf Bajraktari, The Kosova issue--a historic and current problem: symposium held in Tirana on April 15-16, 1993 Full quote: In 1913, 4 000 Albanians in the vicinity of Peje and Gjakove alone, and 8 000 in Plave and Guci, were shot after refusing to renounce their Moslem or Catholic religion and their Albanian nationality. This was published by the Academy of Sciences of Albania. You can certainly claim that in the article it should be used with attribution to the author, but notability of the topic has been established here.

• Conclusion: Keep The existing bibliography establishes notability beyond doubt.The claims about the humber of casualties range from 1,800 to 8,000. About the 700 killed in Previ Pass there is a complete list of the victims This is an event which a)is discussed in bibliography b)is mentioned in diplomatic documents of the era c)influences mass events in Montenegro and the diaspora from that country d)is an event about which the President of Montenegro has apologized about.-- Maleschreiber ( talk) 18:33, 22 May 2020 (UTC) reply

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Albania-related deletion discussions. Maleschreiber ( talk) 18:38, 22 May 2020 (UTC) reply

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Bosnia and Herzegovina-related deletion discussions. Maleschreiber ( talk) 18:38, 22 May 2020 (UTC) reply

Side comment: 1,800-8,000 killed in Plav-Gusinje is not an WP:EXTRAORDINARY number of casualties for the Balkans Wars. The total number of killings of just Albanians reaches up to 200,000. If we add to that all the other communities that suffered throughout the Balkans, the total number is even higher, so 1,800-8,000 in Plav-Gusinje is not something out of the ordinary.-- Maleschreiber ( talk) 18:43, 22 May 2020 (UTC) reply

I'll address your points one by one:

1. Dedushaj is a primary schoolteacher and political activist. We've been over this. Moreover, just because he is cited by a scholar such as Verli doesn't mean Wikipedia should treat him as a WP:RS.
2. As I said in the previous discussion, Balkan Insight and Pacariz are undoubtedly WP:RS. However, the articles don't unequivocally say that a massacre took place. Those sources merely report this as a claim made by Bosniak special interest groups.
3. Elsie is merely reprinting primary source material. This doesn't get the article past the threshold of WP:V either, see WP:PRIMARY.
4. Again, Galaty is a WP:RS. But he doesn't mention any kind of massacre, only that 2,000 refugees had fled to Scutari ( WP:SYNTH). Feel free to add it to Plav, Gusinje and Shkodër's history sections.
5. Rebecca West is another primary source, not a secondary one. This doesn't stand up under WP:V.
6. Local newspapers are not academic, scholarly publications.
7. Krasniqi mentions an imam from Plav who converted to Orthodox Christianity and had his cousins killed for refusing to do the same. Again, WP:SYNTH. How does this = Plav-Gusinje massacre? Feel free to add it to Plav's history section.
8. Bajraktari's remarks were made at a symposium in Tirana in 1993, at a time when relations between Albanians and Serbs over Kosovo were strained to say the least. Balkan scholars weren't exactly paragons of academic excellence in the 1990s. On the contrary, the so-called scholarly institutions of all these countries were plagued by hackery, malpractice and nationalistic dick-measuring. I fail to see how this is WP:RS.

Side note: Are you seriously arguing that 200k Albanians were killed by the Serbian and Montenegrin armies? Even the Albanian primary sources from 1913 don't report a figure in excess of 25k. I've seen some WP:FRINGE claims on Wikipedia before, but that is way out there. Also, WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS. Amanuensis Balkanicus ( talk) 19:12, 22 May 2020 (UTC) reply

I'm arguing that the range of the claims about the total number of killings of Albanians reaches up to 200k in total (not just by Serbo-Montenegrin armies), so 1,800 dead in Plav-Gusinje a very densely populated area at that time, is nothing out of the ordinary. The imam paid by the Montenegrin army was later convicted by a military court for his actions. These events are part of the official military history of Montenegro. His actions are extensively described by Dedushaj.-- Maleschreiber ( talk) 19:27, 22 May 2020 (UTC) reply

Again, we're going off topic here, but which reliably published, peer-reviewed, non-Balkan academic source unequivocally claims that 200k Albanians were killed in the Balkan Wars? If true, this would be a slaughter larger in scale and in scope than the Bosnian genocide and four times larger than all civilian casualties inflicted by the Chetniks during World War II. It would be almost on par with the genocide of Serbs in the NDH between 1941 and 1945 (which left 300k dead). 8k dead in Plav-Gusinje would make this the single largest massacre in Southeastern Europe until the Bleiburg massacre 30 years later (30-50k dead) and on the same scale as Srebrenica in 1995. You would think Western academics and scholars would have written extensively about a massacre of such momentous magnitude had it actually taken place. Alas, they have not. Amanuensis Balkanicus ( talk) 19:39, 22 May 2020 (UTC) reply

You can't compare single, localized massacres like the Srebrenica genocide with a series of massacres which happened over a period of time. You also can't go on to frame the question about the upper limit. Why are Balkan academic sources excluded? I'm pretty sure that the upper limit in Albanian academia reaches up to 200,000 and it should be carefully attributed, but general estimates easily surpass the 100,000+ limit. As for individual massacres have you read the only primary source of the period? It's the Report of the International Commission on the Balkan Wars. The series of massacres described by the international committee reaches up to tens of thousands. As for single massacres, after the Balkan Wars: in 1919, 700 were killed in Rozhaja and in 1924, 600 were killed in the Šahovići massacre in nearby Kolasin. What makes it so extraordinary to you that more than 1,800 people were executed in Plav-Gusinje just a few years before these events?-- Maleschreiber ( talk) 20:10, 22 May 2020 (UTC) reply

• Delete - When I saw some claims about alleged massacres committed by the Montenegrin army during and immediately after the First Balkan War, I decided to investigate the topics and created two articles about two Montenegrin officials who allegedly committed/ordered those massacres. They are Radomir Vešović and Avram Cemović. I carefully investigated the issue and concluded that such claims did not receive significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject, which is the request of WP:NOTABILITY. -- Antidiskriminator ( talk) 18:57, 22 May 2020 (UTC) reply

Side comment for closing admin:Antidiskriminator is an editor who has been permanently blocked on Serbian wikipedia and a few days ago I nominated for deletion an extreme POVFORK he had written about Demonization of the Serbs. It was (obviously) deleted. Now, this editor decides to comment here. Antidiskriminator wrote the article Avram Cemović with very bad bibliography only in order to write an article that would dispute the events of forced conversion (which is undisputed even by the nominator of the article).

Also, there is nothing "alleged" about either the killings or the forced conversion. There was a military court which put to trial part of the perpetrators and they were convicted. This is explained in detail in the article. -- Maleschreiber ( talk) 19:10, 22 May 2020 (UTC) reply

Maleschreiber, please don't make ad hominem attacks on other users. If you have a beef with Antid, take it elsewhere. Amanuensis Balkanicus ( talk) 19:13, 22 May 2020 (UTC) reply

It's not an ad hominem to explain someone's editing history. I haven't accused Antidiskriminator of anything. He is permanently blocked in Serbian wikipedia and he did write just a few days ago an article about "Demonization and Satanization of Serbs" which I nominated for deletion and it was deleted.-- Maleschreiber ( talk) 19:19, 22 May 2020 (UTC) reply

Now, this editor decides to comment here. Incorrect. I wrote a comment ( diff) at Template:Did you know nominations/Plav-Gusinje massacres (1912-13) before Maleschreiber folllowed my edits and nominated for deletion article that I wrote link. This comment is aimed to create false narrative about me so it can be used at report against me, in the absence of real valid arguments. -- Antidiskriminator ( talk) 19:23, 22 May 2020 (UTC) reply

It looks like you're right, Antid. The article was nominated for deletion less than an hour after you left your comment. I wonder if this is a case of WP:WIKISTALKING and disrupting Wikipedia to make a WP:POINT? In any event, this deletion page is no place for such polemics. Both of you, please take your beef elsewhere. Amanuensis Balkanicus ( talk) 19:30, 22 May 2020 (UTC) reply

AB, I was already discussing with Ant. on Talk:Destruction of books in post-independence Croatia (my first comment was on 06:55 12 May) and then on 14:55 12 May Antidiskriminator decided to comment on the DYKN). I didn't just learn about Ant.'s activity. I have nominated another article on AfD a few months ago too in which he was involved and it was deleted too. My comment stands correct and the closing admin is now aware of the editor's activity and content history. Now, we can certainly move on.-- Maleschreiber ( talk) 19:38, 22 May 2020 (UTC) reply

If you really wanted to explain my editing history you could have pointed to multiple article on early 20th century Albanian related topics I created, including:

And many other articles on related topics. That is what should be taken in consideration when evaluating my !vote. Now, we can certainly move on. All the best. -- Antidiskriminator ( talk) 19:43, 22 May 2020 (UTC) reply

Comment sorry I've been gone for awhile, but I'm a bit confused and can't quickly find the answer in all this text. Is there something that changed since the the previous AfD? Thanks all. -- Calthinus ( talk) 21:06, 22 May 2020 (UTC) reply

• Delete or Merge per lack of coverage in reliable sources. As Amanuensis Balkanicus explains very clearly, there is simply no mention of this rather large massacre in reliable sources. As far as I can see, we have activist schoolteachers, collections of primary documents, and an obscure symposium in Albania in 1993. Yet, had such a large massacre taken place, one would expect at least one modern scholar to have documented it. The Balkans are a heavily studied area; there are dozens of scholars who focus on Balkan history and politics. Surely one of them would have verified the existence of this massacre and put his name to that? Maleschreiber has had plenty of time to find reliable sources that document this purported massacre, but has failed to do so, likely because such sources do not exist (certainly not through lack of effort or motivation). The only reliable sources (BI and Pacariz) speak of commemorations by activists, but do not document the existence of the massacre itself. They are misused. I also find arguments of the type "there is no coverage because this was a small massacre" to be absolutely ridiculous and contrived. 2,000 killed is not a small number, it is a HUGE number (comparable to the 8,000 killed in Srebrenica). To suggest that this was a minor event and that WP:EXTRAORDINARY does not apply is highly intellectually dishonest. Khirurg ( talk) 22:15, 22 May 2020 (UTC) reply

The President of Montenegro has apologized for these events and the commemoration in Plav-Gusinje involved the whole area not just "some activists". 2,500 people in total participated.

Full quote from BI: More than 2,000 Bosniaks and ethnic Albanians prayed together to mark the 100th anniversary of what they allege was genocide against their ancestors. The collective religious ritual took place on Tuesday, in the municipality of Plav in eastern Montenegro, to mark the anniversary of mass killings of Bosniaks and Albanians nearby 100 years ago. Bosniak organisations claim that more than 1,800 Muslims from Plav and the nearby municipality of Gusinje were killed and more than 12,000 of them forcibly converted to Christianity during the 1912-13 Balkan wars.

Sabina Pacariz writes: President Filip Vujanović joined the cerenomy, where he stated the crimes performed in Plav and Gusinje are the dark side of the Montenegrin history and later she also writes: On 5 March 2013, in a joint organisation of the Islamic Community of Montenegro together with the Islamic Community and Cultural Centre of Plav and Gusinje in New York, Janazah—a funeral prayer in the sports hall in Plav was organised. Under the name 'Vakat zuluma' (the times of tyranny), the prayer was performed to mark the passing of 100 years from the forceful conversions and killing of Albanians and Bosniaks in Plav and Gusinje in the years 1912-1913. Approximately 2,500 Albanians and Bosniaks from Montenegro, Serbia, Kosovo, Bosnia and Herzegovina and from the usa joined the funeral prayer.

How is it that they don't refer to the events explicitly?-- Maleschreiber ( talk) 23:41, 22 May 2020 (UTC) reply

The behavior of Balkan politicians is meaningless as far as whether the event happened or not. For years Serbian politicians refused to acknolwedge Srebrenica, but that doesn't mean it didn't happen. Regarding BI, did you see the part where it says "of what they allege was genocide..."? BI does not endorse the view that a massacre took place. Pacariz only describes the commemoration. Nowhere does she endorse the view that a massacre actually took place. Face it, you don't have a single reliable source that says a massacre did indeed take place (after what I imagine must have been some very frantic searching). Where is the description of the massacre? Where are the bodies? 2,000 dead is a lot of bodies. Why isn't there a single scholar that investigated this "massacre", as has been the case for so many others? Khirurg ( talk) 01:34, 23 May 2020 (UTC) reply

But there is:

• Premović, Marijan (2013). "VАSOJEVIĆI PREMА PLАVU I GUSINJU [Vasojevići against Plav and Gusinje]". Almanah. 54–56. OCLC  1088898622.
• Zejnullahu, Adem (2006). "KËNGËT POPULLORE PËR KONVERTIMIN E DHUNSHËM TË SHQIPTARËVE NË FENË ORTODOKSE NGA FQINJËT SLLAVË [Folk songs about the violent conversion of Albanians to Christian Orthodoxy by their Slavic neighbours]". Gjurmime Albanologjike. 36.
• These are both articles written in academic journals and cover extensively the events. Zejnullahu (2006) is also very interesting because he has written about how the memory of these events has been expressed in folk songs in the region.-- Maleschreiber ( talk) 13:06, 24 May 2020 (UTC) reply

"Almanah.com" and a...collection of folk songs (in Albanian). Wow, you're really scraping the bottom of the barrel here. The desperation is evident. You have written 20 kb of text [3] to try to save this article, and not a single reliable source. Khirurg ( talk)

There were military trials about these events and in 2012 memorials were erected by the descendants of those killed: "Pranë memorialit të te pushkatuarve të parë më 1912, pas okupimit të Plavë Gucisë nga Mali i Zi (foto)". Plava-Gucia Sot. Retrieved 6 May 2020.

The President of Montenegro in a public ceremony recognized this event, not a random politician. I don't understand why you would think that this is not important in deciding notability. So you think that the president of the country just randomly recognized publicly an event that never happened?

BI says: More than 2,000 Bosniaks and ethnic Albanians prayed together to mark the 100th anniversary of what they allege was genocide against their ancestors. The collective religious ritual took place on Tuesday, in the municipality of Plav in eastern Montenegro, to mark the anniversary of mass killings of Bosniaks and Albanians nearby 100 years ago. BI explicitly says that these were mass killings and uses the verb "allege" to refer to whether they can also be called genocide. The fact that these were mass killings is written in BI's "voice".-- Maleschreiber ( talk) 02:35, 23 May 2020 (UTC) reply

You're just recycling the same discredited sources over and over. Find me one, just one scholarly source that investigates this purported massacre (as opposed to sources that merely mention the commemorations of something), and I will change my vote. This would have been the largest massacre in the Balkan Wars (let alone the fact that is unlikely that the entire Plav-Gusinje area even had that many people in total at the time). Surely there are are sources that investigated this? Where are they? Khirurg ( talk) 18:58, 23 May 2020 (UTC) reply

• Keep. As user Maleschreiber demonstrated, the article is backed by enough sources. Furthermore, modern political recognition demonstrates that the events are significant and undisputed. The article should be maintained and expanded. N.Hoxha ( talk) 02:48, 23 May 2020 (UTC) reply

Comment: wasn't there just recently an AfD about this article that was closed? What were the changes made since then to justify the premature reopening of another Afd? N.Hoxha ( talk) 02:48, 23 May 2020 (UTC) reply

• Keep. Topic is well-cited in both Albanian and Bosnian sources. No POW here. -- Fa alk ( talk) 10:38, 23 May 2020 (UTC) reply
• Delete: Not a single RS provided in this article. For certain it does not pass the threshold. No wonder DYKN was a straight failure. Alexikoua ( talk) 07:59, 24 May 2020 (UTC) reply

Why isn't Pacariz (2013) who was published by Brill RS?.-- Maleschreiber ( talk) 13:06, 24 May 2020 (UTC) reply

Pacariz is RS indeed, but unfortunately does not mention any event known as such. Alexikoua ( talk) 14:11, 24 May 2020 (UTC) reply

Sabina Pacariz writes: President Filip Vujanović joined the cerenomy, where he stated the crimes performed in Plav and Gusinje are the dark side of the Montenegrin history and later she also writes: On 5 March 2013, in a joint organisation of the Islamic Community of Montenegro together with the Islamic Community and Cultural Centre of Plav and Gusinje in New York, Janazah—a funeral prayer in the sports hall in Plav was organised. Under the name 'Vakat zuluma' (the times of tyranny), the prayer was performed to mark the passing of 100 years from the forceful conversions and killing of Albanians and Bosniaks in Plav and Gusinje in the years 1912-1913. Approximately 2,500 Albanians and Bosniaks from Montenegro, Serbia, Kosovo, Bosnia and Herzegovina and from the usa joined the funeral prayer. I have placed the same quote three times. I hope this time you read it.-- Maleschreiber ( talk) 14:39, 24 May 2020 (UTC) reply

Pardon me but the word 'massacre' or any equivalent term is absent in the quote you provided, neither is there a description that warrants a 'massacre' article as you insist. It might have occurred but sources can't confirm this. Alexikoua ( talk) 15:06, 24 May 2020 (UTC) reply

You just argued that the article should be deleted because one of the sources describes it as forceful conversions and killing of Albanians and Bosniaks, instead of massacres. That's an argument for starting a move discussion for the descriptive title which represents the events best, not for asking for the article to be deleted. In the past days after the replies against !delete, the argument in favor of !delete has moved from "this never happened, so it should be deleted" to "this may have happened but there's no in-depth discussion so it should be deleted" and now to "this may have happened, but it refers to "killings" instead of "massacres", so it should be deleted". The 2nd nomination should be retracted.-- Maleschreiber ( talk) 15:23, 24 May 2020 (UTC) reply

For future reference 'forceful conversions and killing' does not equal 'massacre', but even the former description related to the claimed event. It's really sad that this is the only one RS you can provide here. However, feel free to make additional research on the subject and always follow wp:RS carefully. Alexikoua ( talk) 15:43, 24 May 2020 (UTC) reply

There are sources that call it a genocide and the descendants of those killed started in 2012 a campaign for it to be recognized as genocide. A CENTURY OF MONTENEGRIN GENOCIDE ON BOSNIAKS AND ALBANIANS IN PLAV AND GUSINJE. Massacre is one of the many descriptive titles and it's certainly the less POV.-- Maleschreiber ( talk) 15:51, 24 May 2020 (UTC) reply

This article needs a decent wp:RS and I have the feeling that sources like instituteforgenocide.org can't be helpful on that. Alexikoua ( talk) 16:51, 24 May 2020 (UTC)   reply

• I found a paper published in Almanah in 2017. It is interesing because it highlights that these events were censored by Yugoslav historiography up to the 1980s. Rastoder (2017) also explains in detail many of the executions. Rastoder has a great job of gathering archival material, government orders and military dispatches about the events. How can some editors for the 2nd time say "this never happened" or "this happened, but isn't notable enough for a standalone article" when many historians have dedicated so much effort to accurately document them? -- Maleschreiber ( talk) 13:06, 24 May 2020 (UTC) reply

Almanah.com is not a peer-reviewed journal and does not meet the criteria for WP:RS. Khirurg ( talk) 19:44, 24 May 2020 (UTC) reply

• Oppose deletion There are several reliable sources that mention crimes committed there at the time. For instance, Zuzana Poláčková and Pieter van Duin ("Montenegro Old and New: History, Politics, Culture, and the People") p. 72 mention 500 Muslims killed after they refused to convert. The authors cite as sources Malcolm, "Kosovo" pp. 253-5 and Judah, "The Serbs", pp. 85-6. Another source that touches the topic is [4]. The article needs work, much work to be done, though to addreess several issues it has. The nom has not provided any viable rationale why the article should be nominated for deletion a second time. After some work is done, researching and adding more sources such as the ones posted above, then it can be better evaluated if the article can be merged or its topic be expanded to include closely related events such as later similar crimes in the same places. Ktrimi991 ( talk) 15:37, 24 May 2020 (UTC) reply

Your first source is published by "islamawareness.net" [5] (presumably the reason you did not insert a link), and the second is a primary document from 1920. Still no modern secondary reliable sources verifying the existence of this "massacre". Khirurg ( talk) 19:36, 24 May 2020 (UTC) reply

Khirurg, you're misinformed or maybe you haven't read many of the full quotes which have been placed like Pacariz (2013): Under the name 'Vakat zuluma' (the times of tyranny), the prayer was performed to mark the passing of 100 years from the forceful conversions and killing of Albanians and Bosniaks in Plav and Gusinje in the years 1912-1913. Ktrimi is quoting a paper published in Studia Politica Slovaca a journal of the Slovak Academy of Sciences (SAS). Zuzana Poláčková and Pieter van Duin write(the link is from the SAS site): Those who refused to convert, including some Catholics, were tortured or shot, for example a well-known Catholic priest who was killed for refusing to make the Orthodox sign of the cross. A report from 1914 of an international commission of enquiry set up by the Carnegie Endowment described how in 1913 the Albanians were crushed in Kosovo and how "unarmed and innocent populations were massacred by the Serbo-Montenegrin soldiery, with a view to the entire transformation of the ethnic character of regions inhabited exclusively by Albanians." When Plav in northern Albania was occupied by the Montenegrins, 500 Muslims who refused to convert to Christianity were shot. I'll add that to the article's bibliography, thank you @ Ktrimi991:!. -- Maleschreiber ( talk) 20:26, 24 May 2020 (UTC) reply

Maleschreiber, also take a look at Dietmar Müller. Ktrimi991 ( talk) 21:33, 24 May 2020 (UTC) reply

New source in the article's bibliography. Dietmar Müller writes: The Montenegrin integration policy was characterized by a measure that was obviously not followed by the Serbian side: the forced baptism of Albanian and Slavic Muslims in the cities of Plav, Gusinje, Pec, and Djakovo. In an action agreed between several ministries, of which King Nikola Petrovic Njegos apparently also knew, 12,000 Muslims were forcibly christianized in the first two cities by February 1913 and 800 people killed who did not want to undergo this procedure. Then followed Catholic Albanians from Pec and Dakovo. Only when Catholic Albanians from Pec and Dakovo were included did the forced baptisms have to be stopped under pressure from Austria-Hungary.-- Maleschreiber ( talk) 23:55, 24 May 2020 (UTC) reply

(ec) Maleschreiber: I am not "misinformed" at all. Fact is, you haven't found a single reliable source that unequivocally documents this massacre. All your sources so far are highly obscure Balkan sources, all from countries with an axe to grind against Serbia/Montenegro. I just don't buy it that international Balkan scholars miss what would have been one of the biggest massacres of the war. It just doesn't add up. Khirurg ( talk) 23:57, 24 May 2020 (UTC) reply

Just above this comment, there are two full quotes from sources added today in the article's content and bibliography. Zuzana Poláčková and Pieter van Duin (2013) wrote their paper for Studia Politica Slovaca a journal of the Slovak Academy of Sciences (SAS), while Dietmar Müller (2005) is also an international Balkans scholar whose book was published by the well-known German academic publishing house Harrassowitz Verlag. Are these "highly obscure Balkan sources" (what's a "highly obscure Balkan source" really? A source either is RS or not, whether we personally know their work or not, is irrelevant) or "from countries with an axe to grind against Serbia/Montenegro" (this isn't even an argument about RS, but a personal attack against scholars, so you're into WP:BLP territory here if you're actually saying that for any of these scholars)? -- Maleschreiber ( talk) 00:06, 25 May 2020 (UTC) reply

Comment I agree, it is clear that citations have been adequately recruited from both Balkan and non-Balkan (Muller for one) sources. What needs to stop is crude nationalized accusations based on scholars coming from "countries with an axe to grind with Serbia/Montenegro" (who has an axe to grind with tiny Montenegro? Aside from Serbian individuals who think it should be part of Serbia and Montenegrins are one people, not many people let alone entire countries... and this is a page about stuff that happened a century ago). As for coverage, to be honest I still have to examine the matter. -- Calthinus ( talk) 19:18, 27 May 2020 (UTC) reply

Oh, there are plenty of people with axes to grind and WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS, expecially here. For instance, if you actually look at the contribs log of all of those who voted "Keep". A pattern emerges, and it's pretty obvious what's going on here: coordinated ethnic bloc voting, as with every such discussion nowadays. Khirurg ( talk) 05:19, 28 May 2020 (UTC) reply

Yeah you love talking about this. Never mind how it could just as well apply to the other side ... or the total lack of evidence other than the alleged ethnicities of other users. -- Calthinus ( talk) 15:59, 30 May 2020 (UTC) reply

Neither of the new sources has significant coverage that would count towards WP:GNG... b uidh e 07:48, 26 May 2020 (UTC) reply

Yeap, passing mentions are just not going to cut it. Thanks for pointing that out. Khirurg ( talk) 05:19, 28 May 2020 (UTC) reply

• Delete or Merge per lack of coverage in RS. Sadkσ (talk is cheap) 17:45, 25 May 2020 (UTC) reply

• Delete Not with these sources. I need to see real coverage in independent sources because issues like this are too politically-charged to rely upon partisan accounts. Chris Troutman ( talk) 02:42, 3 June 2020 (UTC) reply

How many of the sources do you consider to be "too politically-charged"? I'm asking that because you were one of the few editors who voted !keep when I nominated for deletion Demonization of the Serbs - in fact, all the !delete in this AfD are from editors who when I nominated "Demonization of the Serbs" tried to !keep it. I've expanded this article which I didn't create in the first place, because it is a very notable subject about the Plav-Gusinje/Plava-Gucia region. I'll accept whatever decision the community ultimately makes, but it has to be part of an actual assessment of the subject. It strikes me as very contradictory in terms of policy judgment how the people who when I nominated an obvious and extreme POVFORK about "Demonization/Satanization" thought that it should be kept are the same editors who think that this article should be deleted.

Nonetheless, I'll reply to your request. The Bibliography section lists 13 sources. The first sources which were already included in the article have been extensively discussed above, but I want to mention some of the newer ones and I also need a clarification about which ones you consider to not be RS or "too politically-charged":

• Zuzana Poláčková/Peter van Duin published their paper in Studia Politica Slovaca, a journal of the Slovak Academy of Sciences and Arts

  Dietmar Müller is an international scholar, published by the Harrassowitz Verlag

  Kolë Krasniqi, a university professor, published by Springer Nature-- Maleschreiber ( talk) 15:09, 3 June 2020 (UTC) reply

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Politics-related deletion discussions. Maleschreiber ( talk) 15:17, 3 June 2020 (UTC) reply

The issue here is which sources say what. In that other AfD, I felt that there were sufficient non-Balkan sources making the case that the Serbs were demonized. Those sources said so directly. Here, you have Balkan people with a dog in the fight alleging stuff. Regardless of what outlet published the material, I'd have a hard time believing any Slav on the question of a massacre. Müller doesn't say there was a massacre. There were certainly forced conversations wherein some people were killed and, as you discuss with Alexikoua, maybe there should have been a rename discussion. I can't say that an article about violence being called a massacre should be kept if there was no clear consensus of a massacre, although the forced conversions and violence probably did happen. Do you want me to !vote keep because something happened but we can't be sure independent academics call it a massacre although Wikipedia claims so in the article's name? Chris Troutman ( talk) 17:52, 3 June 2020 (UTC) reply

Bibliography in very certain terms describes that hundreds to thousands were killed. Müller writes The Montenegrin integration policy was characterized by a measure that was obviously not followed by the Serbian side: the forced baptism of Albanian and Slavic Muslims in the cities of Plav, Gusinje, Pec, and Djakovo. In an action agreed between several ministries, of which King Nikola Petrovic Njegos apparently also knew, 12,000 Muslims were forcibly christianized in the first two cities by February 1913 and 800 people killed who did not want to undergo this procedure. Then followed Catholic Albanians from Pec and Dakovo. Only when Catholic Albanians from Pec and Dakovo were included did the forced baptisms have to be stopped under pressure from Austria-Hungary. The other sources describe the trials which were held after the events for some of the officers involved and how today in Montenegro the President of the country recognize these events as the dark side of the history of Montenegro. I renamed the article to Plav-Gusinje massacres (1912-1913) from Previ Pass massacre based on what bibliography says. In my opinion, it's very pedantic and irrelevant to argue that an article should be deleted because in picking the title one editor - based on sources that described how many hundreds of people were killed - picked the title "Massacres in X area in Y timeline". It's a reasonable title, which if anyone considers to be wrong, they could start a move discussion, but nobody can argue that the article should get deleted because a source says 800 people were killed without a reference to the exact term massacre.-- Maleschreiber ( talk) 19:32, 3 June 2020 (UTC) reply

"nobody can argue that the article should get deleted because a source says 800 people were killed without a reference to the exact term massacre" That's precisely the issue. Chris Troutman ( talk) 21:19, 3 June 2020 (UTC) reply

That is an argument about a possible rename which could be Killings and Forced Conversion in Plav-Gusinje in 1912-1913. I picked another descriptive title among the many that could be used. There is no "correct" title about events which haven't been assigned one in historiography. Many hundreds up to thousands of people were killed between the end of 1912 and the spring of 1913 in Plav-Gusinje during a forced conversion campaign which resulted in 12,000 people temporarily becoming Orthodox against their will. This campaign ended with the intervention of Austria-Hungary, which forced the Montenegrin king to proclaim freedom of religion again in the area. It's reasonable to name the killing of 800> people in an organized state-planned campaign as massacre(s). Many historical events don't have a "correct" title which is the prevailing one in historiography. Debates about "correct" titles of events can't be turned into debates about the historicity/notability of the events, which undoubtedly happened.-- Maleschreiber ( talk) 21:43, 3 June 2020 (UTC) reply

You still haven't explained why islamawareness.net should be considered a reliable source. Amanuensis Balkanicus ( talk) 15:47, 4 June 2020 (UTC) reply

• Keep The article should be improved but that is not reason for deletion when we have a notable topic. Sadsadas ( talk) 19:51, 3 June 2020 (UTC) reply

WP:ITSNOTABLE and WP:THEREMUSTBESOURCES aren't valid arguments. Amanuensis Balkanicus ( talk) 15:47, 4 June 2020 (UTC) reply

AB, there are many full quotes of WP:RS throughout this discussion. Claiming that bibliography doesn't exist when presented with full quotes is itself not a valid argument. You made the same claim a month ago when you first nominated this article to AfD. Many sources/full quotes later, you're making the same claim, but haven't assessed the sources themselves.-- Maleschreiber ( talk) 02:33, 5 June 2020 (UTC) reply

• Keep The sources perfectly reflect what happened to the people from the region of Plav and Gusinje/Plava and Gucia. I don't see a reason why this article should be completely deleted since we can all agree that it represents a dark period for the people of this region, which should not be forgotten. Crazydude1912 ( talk) 22:27, 3 June 2020 (UTC) reply

The sources are synthesized to reach a conclusion that no WP:RS reaches on its own, in violation of WP:SYNTH. Amanuensis Balkanicus ( talk) 15:47, 4 June 2020 (UTC) reply

• Keep Notable topic. Once again, people having issues with the articles POW or its general quality is not reason for deletion. If the topic passes GNG then it passes GNG. ★Trekker ( talk) 14:25, 4 June 2020 (UTC) reply

@ *Treker: WP:ITSNOTABLE. Also, POV isn't one of the arguments that have been made in favour of deletion. WP:GNG requires significant coverage in reliable sources and this article doesn't meet either of those thresholds. On the contrary, it synthesizes multiple sources (some reliable, most not) to reach the conclusion that a massacre of thousands of people took place. Amanuensis Balkanicus ( talk) 15:47, 4 June 2020 (UTC) reply

Comment: Both Sadsadas & Crazydude1912 are not uninvolved in Balkans issues. Their userpage makes quite clear their national background. Per Sadstein's relisting comment their votes should be cancelled. Otherwise I assume "all" users can vote again. Alexikoua ( talk) 19:50, 4 June 2020 (UTC) reply

• • • • • Neither you nor the nominator seem "uninvolved" in Balkan issues either. Let the admins decide which side is wrong like all the other AFDs. This discussion seems to be plagued by POV from both sides here, and as such an damin should have final say. A competend admin can see if someone has tried to "vote" twice or whatever. ★Trekker ( talk) 20:25, 4 June 2020 (UTC) reply

Indeed, an admin can see who is uninvolved and who isn't in this topic and each opinion is judged accordingly (not on the basis of a !vote, but on the basis of an !argument). Calling someone "involved" because of their "national background" and calling for their opinions to be "canceled" because you disagree with them doesn't promote community procedures. Anyone who hasn't made a comment here, can do that. It's incomprehensible to me that Alexikoua thinks that because editors who hadn't been involved in this discussion or the previous AfD about "Demonization of the Serbs" (in which all the !delete were involved including Alexikoua), gave their opinion, Alexikoua him/herself can "vote again". I don't understand the point of the above comment, but this AfD needs a discussion which focuses on the article not on the national backgrounds of editors.

I do want to reply to AB's claim that there is "SYNTH" about the casualties in the article though- which I think is an argument which returns the discussion to its original subject and as such at least allows for a real discussion to happen. The full paragraph is There is variation in the estimates about the total number of those killed in the massacres and those who underwent forced reconversion. (..) The total number of those forced to convert reached 12,000 and 800 who refused to do so were executed (..) [15] In Plav, a total of about 500 who refused to convert were executed.[16] Modern Bosniak organizations maintain that more than 1,800 were killed (..) [17] Mark Krasniqi of the Academy of Sciences of Kosovo has placed the total number of Albanians killed during the massacres at 8,000.[18] Besides the need for RS, significant coverage in GNG means that no original research is needed to extract the content. No OR is needed to extract the content about the casualties and RS is used (Müller, Van Duin, Polackova). There's well-sourced attribution of particular claims wherever that is necessary. I won't post full quotes again, I've already placed 4 times Müller who concludes that 12,000 Muslims were forcibly christianized in the first two cities by February 1913 and 800 people killed who did not want to undergo this procedure If we're going to continue having this discussion, new arguments should be put forward for !delete, but repetition of the old ones doesn't highlight anything new. It just causes confusion because anyone can see in the article that nobody has "synthesized multiple sources to reach the conclusion that thousands of people were killed".-- Maleschreiber ( talk) 02:29, 5 June 2020 (UTC) reply

Indeed, an admin can see that all but one of the keep votes are from the same ethnic bloc. And any admin can see that the statement the AfD about "Demonization of the Serbs" (in which all the !delete were involved including Alexikoua) is blatantly false. You're not helping your credibility here. Khirurg ( talk) 02:48, 5 June 2020 (UTC) reply

Don't arbitrarily categorize editors based on their national backgrounds. Here's Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Demonization of the Serbs. Any closing admin can review that. Can you instead of putting forward comments about 'ethnic blocs" in this AfD focus on its content?-- Maleschreiber ( talk) 02:58, 5 June 2020 (UTC) reply

How about you strike the blatant falsehood that the AfD about "Demonization of the Serbs" (in which all the !delete were involved including Alexikoua). As for focuing on content, I've already shown this purported massacre is not substantiated by the literature. I can understand you really don't like me pointing out inconvenient facts, but someone's got to do it. Every recent AfD and RfC in this topic area has been successfully is plagued by an apparently well-coordinated ethnic bloc that never fails to show up and vote along party lines. Khirurg ( talk) 04:14, 5 June 2020 (UTC) reply

• The AfD is there for anyone to review who in that AfD who voted "keep" and even "speedy keep" (you) for a blatant POVFORK, here has been arguing for !delete. I've been pointing this out since the middle stage of the AfD..and then it got relisted because it was judged that there was no sufficient outside input. Every single !delete comment which followed the nominator's argument here, was a !keep there. Which !delete comment here wasn't involved as a !keep comment there? I stand to be proven wrong. And I highlight this because of the highly contradictory assessment of those two articles by the !delete here.
• I've already posted quotes upon quotes upon quotes, so it's WP:IDONTLIKEIT on your part to keep arguing for deletion. Also, don't make unsubstantiated accusations against other editors based on their origins.
• But just to help the readers in order to understand the magnitude of WP:IDONTLIKEIT of the claim that it is "not substantiated by literature", Zuzana Poláčková and Pieter van Duin write: Those who refused to convert, including some Catholics, were tortured or shot, for example a well-known Catholic priest who was killed for refusing to make the Orthodox sign of the cross. A report from 1914 of an international commission of enquiry set up by the Carnegie Endowment described how in 1913 the Albanians were crushed in Kosovo and how "unarmed and innocent populations were massacred by the Serbo-Montenegrin soldiery, with a view to the entire transformation of the ethnic character of regions inhabited exclusively by Albanians." When Plav in northern Albania was occupied by the Montenegrins, 500 Muslims who refused to convert to Christianity were shot and Müller writes The Montenegrin integration policy was characterized by a measure that was obviously not followed by the Serbian side: the forced baptism of Albanian and Slavic Muslims in the cities of Plav, Gusinje, Pec, and Djakovo. In an action agreed between several ministries, of which King Nikola Petrovic Njegos apparently also knew, 12,000 Muslims were forcibly christianized in the first two cities by February 1913 and 800 people killed who did not want to undergo this procedure. -- Maleschreiber ( talk) 04:39, 5 June 2020 (UTC) reply

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Islam-related deletion discussions. Maleschreiber ( talk) 05:00, 5 June 2020 (UTC) reply

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Religion-related deletion discussions. Maleschreiber ( talk) 05:00, 5 June 2020 (UTC) reply

• Strong Keep - If there are reliable sources, any instance of genocide is notable enough to be included and page created, than. In recent months, on several occasions, I have come across individual editors who reassured me that there must be only a RS, and creation of such page is valid, and that judicial and/or multilateral international declarations are in no way only and/or necessary for validation and acceptance of the genocide occurrence, regardless of scope, location or era, and page creations, unless its really, really recent happening, so it's not covered thoroughly.-- ౪ Santa ౪ ^99° 01:21, 6 June 2020 (UTC) corrected-- ౪ Santa ౪ ^99° 03:42, 6 June 2020 (UTC) reply

• Additional remark - I reserve the right to change my mind and/or be wrong. I am not that familiar with specific Balkan Wars war-crimes, which is, in my case, evident in this example, and especially regarding RS.-- ౪ Santa ౪ ^99° 03:42, 6 June 2020 (UTC) reply

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.