The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was redirect‎ to Llanelli#Settlements near Llanelli as a viable ATD Star Mississippi 01:51, 26 February 2024 (UTC) reply

Pen-y-graig, Carmarthenshire (  | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log | edits since nomination)

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Fails WP:GEOLAND and WP:GNG, no sufficient sources found to develop the article, unreferenced since its creation. Not a name recognised by Ordnance Survey today, nor other online maps, unless connected to the "Penygraig road" in a similar location. Only seen it used as a trivial place name, possibly influenced by this article, and as a historic place name. However, as per the talk RM it may have been a building name, or a tiny village, since lost, and not enough for an article. Dank Jae 18:38, 18 February 2024 (UTC) reply

• Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Geography and Wales. Dank Jae 18:38, 18 February 2024 (UTC) reply
• Delete or redirect to Llanelli#Settlements near Llanelli. Indeed not an OS settlement [1], can't find much online and although the Welsh Wikipedia article is more developed it mainly lists services etc nearby so doesn't really contain any content other than location etc. Crouch, Swale ( talk) 20:13, 18 February 2024 (UTC) reply
  • @ Crouch, Swale, the cy article is bot generated, so just uses the coordinates to guess where the nearest stuff is or what constituency it is in. Dank Jae 20:15, 18 February 2024 (UTC) reply
    • I just looked at the RM and see I was the nom and you supported where we questioned notability and I tagged the article for notability. Indeed the cy article is bot generated possibly from this article. Crouch, Swale ( talk) 20:22, 18 February 2024 (UTC) reply
• I can find no evidence that this is anything at all, and although it was something almost a century and a quarter ago, it appearing in some old gazetteers, I can find no documentation of what, specifically, it was. There are hints that, after what it was vanished, the name lingered in the names of some bungalows and a road on a council estate built in the 1960s. But no firm documentation of anything. The hints are in a sports player's biography, not exactly a firm geographic resource. Uncle G ( talk) 15:13, 19 February 2024 (UTC) reply
• Delete I can't find anything to even verify this. The other Pen-y-graig does not help. SportingFlyer T· C 15:13, 19 February 2024 (UTC) reply
• Unsure Pen-y-Graig is marked on the OS six-inch 1888-1915 map, [2] and on the OS 25-inch map 1892-1914, [3] where Pen-y-graig looks like a hamlet. I found a reliable modern source: Llanelli Rural Council mentions Penygraig as a community, [4] (although this is not an official community for local government). An argument for keeping it is that does not seem to be a part of another place (based on the maps), it is unclear whether we might redirect it to Cwmcarnhywel, Bryn or Llwynhendy. Verbcatcher ( talk) 07:18, 20 February 2024 (UTC) reply

  @ Verbcatcher, The LRC source uses Clos Cilsaig, Dafen and Penygraig, Bynea. Clos Cilsaig, "clos meaning close?", seems to be a street name, so Penygraig is likely too (Penygraig Road), with Clos Cilsaig located in Dafen, and Penygraig located in Bynea (for some reason). So "community" here likely is used generally. Dank Jae 12:11, 20 February 2024 (UTC) reply

  @ DankJae: The LRC source says "Penygraig play area will also be situated on space formerly used as a play area at land behind Penllwynrhodyn Road." Penllwynrhodyn Road is about 200m from Penygraig road. The location of the Penygraig play area is confirmed by the picture in the LRC page (where they have copied a Google StreetView image). [5] This confirms that the LRC page uses Penygraig as an area, or a suburb. This qualifies for "Populated places without legal recognition" in WP:GEOLAND, but it should be "considered on a case-by-case basis" so there is no requirement to treat it as 'notable'. Verbcatcher ( talk) 23:11, 20 February 2024 (UTC) reply

  Looking at the text size of the old maps compared to other places that are settlements it looks like it might just be making reference to a farm or at least a place below a settlement but its not clear. Its quite possible it was only a farm or similar and as Llanelli expanded the area it became became known informally as Pen-y-graig or similar but otherwise has (and quite possibly never had) any legal recognition. Looking at notability of places in Wales, communities (in the sense of municipalities as opposed to informal areas of towns etc) would be considered legally recognized per GEOLAND, OS settlements may be considered legally recognized and areas below OS settlements would not be considered legally recognized so it seems quite clear today (and possibly always) its a place without legal recognition and we haven't found any substantial coverage of it so it should be deleted or merged. Crouch, Swale ( talk) 19:46, 22 February 2024 (UTC) reply

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.