- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was no consensus. It is not clear whether census-designated places qualify as "populated, legally recognized places" under WP:GEOLAND. I see that there is an ongoing discussion on the talk page of the guideline; should it resolve as no, feel free to renominate for deletion. King of ♥ ♦ ♣ ♠ 15:55, 22 April 2020 (UTC)
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- Muhlenberg Park, Pennsylvania ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log · Stats)
- (Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
This is a subdivision/census tract census-designated place within
Muhlenberg Township, Berks County, Pennsylvania. Newspapers.com has numerous ads and promotional articles from the 1920s, but nothing that suggests this was a distinct community. –
dlthewave
☎
14:34, 29 March 2020 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Geography-related deletion discussions. – dlthewave ☎ 14:34, 29 March 2020 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Pennsylvania-related deletion discussions. – dlthewave ☎ 14:34, 29 March 2020 (UTC)
- Delete Not a populated place per WP:GEOLAND. Fails WP:GNG Lightburst ( talk) 15:36, 29 March 2020 (UTC)
- Keep Clearly a populated place per GEOLAND. Is a census-designated place, which are always considered notable. The communities are not considered always notable are developments, though CDPs do not qualify. ~ EDDY ( talk/ contribs)~ 16:04, 29 March 2020 (UTC)
- @
Editorofthewiki: Please show me where in the
WP:GEOLAND guidelines
a census-designated place is always considered notable
. My reading per geoland: census tracts are usually not considered notable unless SIGCOV exists. From our own Wikipedia article: Census-designated place The boundaries of a CDP have no legal status and may not always correspond with the local understanding of the area or community with the same name. Lightburst ( talk) 16:39, 29 March 2020 (UTC)- CDPs are bigger than tracts; in areas where town incorporation is uncommon (e.g. Maryland) towns, even some cities (such as Silver Spring), are CDPs because they don't have legal boundaries. There are problems with the lines the census draws, but it seems reasonable to me that the assignment of a definite population qualifies as sufficient official recognition of a settlement of some sort; as a rule the census is establishing a CDP because there is some sense that people think of it as a distinct place.
Mangoe (
talk)
17:40, 29 March 2020 (UTC)
- Comment: You have stated that this is kind of a general feeling you have - as you have stated:
it seems reasonable to me
. However, I am not finding this - nor has anyone quoted actual WP:SNG) to support this feeling. I would suggest an RfC. Until then I cannot see that this CDP passes GNG or Geoland. Lightburst ( talk) 18:25, 29 March 2020 (UTC)- FWIW I have started a discussion on the topic at Wikipedia talk:Notability (geographic features). I am of the opinion that "legally recognized places" DOES include CDPs as the Census Bureau tracks and provides data for them. ~ EDDY ( talk/ contribs)~ 21:06, 29 March 2020 (UTC)
- Comment: You have stated that this is kind of a general feeling you have - as you have stated:
- CDPs are bigger than tracts; in areas where town incorporation is uncommon (e.g. Maryland) towns, even some cities (such as Silver Spring), are CDPs because they don't have legal boundaries. There are problems with the lines the census draws, but it seems reasonable to me that the assignment of a definite population qualifies as sufficient official recognition of a settlement of some sort; as a rule the census is establishing a CDP because there is some sense that people think of it as a distinct place.
Mangoe (
talk)
17:40, 29 March 2020 (UTC)
- @
Editorofthewiki: Please show me where in the
WP:GEOLAND guidelines
- Keep Census-designated places are explicitly different from census tracts in the US; the only real similarity is that they're both defined by the Census Bureau. While the entire country is divided into census tracts, including large incorporated cities and completely uninhabited areas, census-designated places that the Census Bureau determines should be counted as places despite not being incorporated. This amounts to official government recognition of census-designated places as named communities, which means they pass WP:GEOLAND. TheCatalyst31 Reaction• Creation 01:28, 31 March 2020 (UTC)
- Keep Census-designated places are consider to be notable-tank you- RFD ( talk) 10:58, 1 April 2020 (UTC)
- Keep CDPs are defined as places by the local / county / state governments in conjunction with the U.S. Census Bureau. The article for Iselin, New Jersey provides a model for the statistical data maintained by the Census Bureau that could and should be used to expand the article. Alansohn ( talk) 13:08, 1 April 2020 (UTC)
- Comment I do not believe there is any consensus regarding Census-designated places passing WP:GEOLAND. It appears the keep !votes are WP:IAR. Lightburst ( talk) 20:27, 4 April 2020 (UTC)
- Delete. Fails the clear wording of WP:GEOLAND, and is no where remotely close to passing WP:GNG. Yilloslime ( talk) 20:52, 4 April 2020 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, North America 1000 10:38, 5 April 2020 (UTC)
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, North America 1000 10:38, 5 April 2020 (UTC)
- Redirect to Muhlenberg Township, Berks County, Pennsylvania. A CDP is defined "for statistical purposes only"; it is not a community for which there is sufficient information to develop an encyclopedic article. As this area is really a non-notable neighboorhood and is mentioned as such in the article on the township in which it is located, it should redirect there. MB 05:25, 10 April 2020 (UTC)
- The 5th and 6th sources are about Muhlenberg Township, although 6 does have a reference to "Muhlenberg Village" and I don't know if that refers to the township in an earlier era or the Muhlenberg Park area. 1 - 4 are are passing mentions to people from "Muhlenberg Park" and other such trivia, clearly not in-depth sigcov about it. Source 3 is the best, it defines the boundaries but something like that could probably be found for every NN neighborhood. Still does not meet GNG. Anything important from any of these kinds of sources can be added to the township article per GEOLAND: "information on the informal place should be included in the more general article on the legally recognized populated place or administrative subdivision that contains it." MB 16:46, 10 April 2020 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Barkeep49 ( talk) 01:37, 14 April 2020 (UTC)
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Barkeep49 ( talk) 01:37, 14 April 2020 (UTC)
- Keep This CDP is clearly defined as an inhabited/populated place, plus per above statements. Wikipedia as an encyclopedia should be comprehensive & in this case take its lead from RS that has established the CDP. Djflem ( talk) 17:25, 21 April 2020 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was no consensus. It is not clear whether census-designated places qualify as "populated, legally recognized places" under WP:GEOLAND. I see that there is an ongoing discussion on the talk page of the guideline; should it resolve as no, feel free to renominate for deletion. King of ♥ ♦ ♣ ♠ 15:55, 22 April 2020 (UTC)
[Hide this box] New to Articles for deletion (AfD)? Read these primers!
- Muhlenberg Park, Pennsylvania ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log · Stats)
- (Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
This is a subdivision/census tract census-designated place within
Muhlenberg Township, Berks County, Pennsylvania. Newspapers.com has numerous ads and promotional articles from the 1920s, but nothing that suggests this was a distinct community. –
dlthewave
☎
14:34, 29 March 2020 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Geography-related deletion discussions. – dlthewave ☎ 14:34, 29 March 2020 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Pennsylvania-related deletion discussions. – dlthewave ☎ 14:34, 29 March 2020 (UTC)
- Delete Not a populated place per WP:GEOLAND. Fails WP:GNG Lightburst ( talk) 15:36, 29 March 2020 (UTC)
- Keep Clearly a populated place per GEOLAND. Is a census-designated place, which are always considered notable. The communities are not considered always notable are developments, though CDPs do not qualify. ~ EDDY ( talk/ contribs)~ 16:04, 29 March 2020 (UTC)
- @
Editorofthewiki: Please show me where in the
WP:GEOLAND guidelines
a census-designated place is always considered notable
. My reading per geoland: census tracts are usually not considered notable unless SIGCOV exists. From our own Wikipedia article: Census-designated place The boundaries of a CDP have no legal status and may not always correspond with the local understanding of the area or community with the same name. Lightburst ( talk) 16:39, 29 March 2020 (UTC)- CDPs are bigger than tracts; in areas where town incorporation is uncommon (e.g. Maryland) towns, even some cities (such as Silver Spring), are CDPs because they don't have legal boundaries. There are problems with the lines the census draws, but it seems reasonable to me that the assignment of a definite population qualifies as sufficient official recognition of a settlement of some sort; as a rule the census is establishing a CDP because there is some sense that people think of it as a distinct place.
Mangoe (
talk)
17:40, 29 March 2020 (UTC)
- Comment: You have stated that this is kind of a general feeling you have - as you have stated:
it seems reasonable to me
. However, I am not finding this - nor has anyone quoted actual WP:SNG) to support this feeling. I would suggest an RfC. Until then I cannot see that this CDP passes GNG or Geoland. Lightburst ( talk) 18:25, 29 March 2020 (UTC)- FWIW I have started a discussion on the topic at Wikipedia talk:Notability (geographic features). I am of the opinion that "legally recognized places" DOES include CDPs as the Census Bureau tracks and provides data for them. ~ EDDY ( talk/ contribs)~ 21:06, 29 March 2020 (UTC)
- Comment: You have stated that this is kind of a general feeling you have - as you have stated:
- CDPs are bigger than tracts; in areas where town incorporation is uncommon (e.g. Maryland) towns, even some cities (such as Silver Spring), are CDPs because they don't have legal boundaries. There are problems with the lines the census draws, but it seems reasonable to me that the assignment of a definite population qualifies as sufficient official recognition of a settlement of some sort; as a rule the census is establishing a CDP because there is some sense that people think of it as a distinct place.
Mangoe (
talk)
17:40, 29 March 2020 (UTC)
- @
Editorofthewiki: Please show me where in the
WP:GEOLAND guidelines
- Keep Census-designated places are explicitly different from census tracts in the US; the only real similarity is that they're both defined by the Census Bureau. While the entire country is divided into census tracts, including large incorporated cities and completely uninhabited areas, census-designated places that the Census Bureau determines should be counted as places despite not being incorporated. This amounts to official government recognition of census-designated places as named communities, which means they pass WP:GEOLAND. TheCatalyst31 Reaction• Creation 01:28, 31 March 2020 (UTC)
- Keep Census-designated places are consider to be notable-tank you- RFD ( talk) 10:58, 1 April 2020 (UTC)
- Keep CDPs are defined as places by the local / county / state governments in conjunction with the U.S. Census Bureau. The article for Iselin, New Jersey provides a model for the statistical data maintained by the Census Bureau that could and should be used to expand the article. Alansohn ( talk) 13:08, 1 April 2020 (UTC)
- Comment I do not believe there is any consensus regarding Census-designated places passing WP:GEOLAND. It appears the keep !votes are WP:IAR. Lightburst ( talk) 20:27, 4 April 2020 (UTC)
- Delete. Fails the clear wording of WP:GEOLAND, and is no where remotely close to passing WP:GNG. Yilloslime ( talk) 20:52, 4 April 2020 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, North America 1000 10:38, 5 April 2020 (UTC)
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, North America 1000 10:38, 5 April 2020 (UTC)
- Redirect to Muhlenberg Township, Berks County, Pennsylvania. A CDP is defined "for statistical purposes only"; it is not a community for which there is sufficient information to develop an encyclopedic article. As this area is really a non-notable neighboorhood and is mentioned as such in the article on the township in which it is located, it should redirect there. MB 05:25, 10 April 2020 (UTC)
- The 5th and 6th sources are about Muhlenberg Township, although 6 does have a reference to "Muhlenberg Village" and I don't know if that refers to the township in an earlier era or the Muhlenberg Park area. 1 - 4 are are passing mentions to people from "Muhlenberg Park" and other such trivia, clearly not in-depth sigcov about it. Source 3 is the best, it defines the boundaries but something like that could probably be found for every NN neighborhood. Still does not meet GNG. Anything important from any of these kinds of sources can be added to the township article per GEOLAND: "information on the informal place should be included in the more general article on the legally recognized populated place or administrative subdivision that contains it." MB 16:46, 10 April 2020 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Barkeep49 ( talk) 01:37, 14 April 2020 (UTC)
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Barkeep49 ( talk) 01:37, 14 April 2020 (UTC)
- Keep This CDP is clearly defined as an inhabited/populated place, plus per above statements. Wikipedia as an encyclopedia should be comprehensive & in this case take its lead from RS that has established the CDP. Djflem ( talk) 17:25, 21 April 2020 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.