- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was delete. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs talk 18:46, 13 June 2022 (UTC)
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- Midwest hip hop ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log | edits since nomination)
- (Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
There is no topic here other than a List of rappers from the midwest United States. Certainly there is no established style of midwest hip hop: see the Denver source saying "artists from the Midwest have succeeded each with their own unique style and flavor". Chopper (rap) is from the Midwest, but the Midwest is not all chopper. There is no defining style of Midwest rap music except the geography of origin. I suggest creating a list of hip hop artists from this geography. Binksternet ( talk) 19:00, 18 May 2022 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Music-related deletion discussions. Binksternet ( talk) 19:00, 18 May 2022 (UTC)
- Delete, synthesis of ideas with no clear coherent topic. Ten Pound Hammer • ( What did I screw up now?) 19:16, 18 May 2022 (UTC)
I have edited the introduction to make it more than just s list of subgenres. There's more sources on it than east coast hip hop and an explanation that there's a bias towards midwest hip hop not being a real genre. Complexity or being nebulous doesn't mean it's not a genre as IDM demonstrates. IDM is a nebulous genre with very minimal defining characteristics that even its creators reject as a label and argue isn't a real genre. Same with progressive music. Just like midwest hip hop. If were deleting midwest hip hop based off citations then we should delete east coast hip hop which has way less citations, progressive music and the IDM pages to by this logic. I even explained the distinct influences and lyricism in general for it. I've added sources explaining why it's a genre in and of itself as well as demonstrating the overlap between subregions sounds. At least a few of them. Synthesis is based on sources and patterns it reveals. This is not original research since the citations justify these conclusions. The entire explanation for why it is in the introduction is not entirely synthesis. Many parts are just stating exactly what those articles say. even then extrapolating based on patterns of data from cited sources is not original research that would violate Wikipedia's synthesis policy. A loosely connected genre is still a genre. I have sources that clearly demonstrate there are connecting characteristics between subregions sounds that make it a genre even if those could be considered subgenres of this genre. Umbrella terms as shown by the other articles I mentioned can be genres if there's a minimal set of characteristics. This page thus should be seen as a page needing improvement and based off this it shouldn't be deleted based of wikipedia's own deletion standard. Matsuiny2004 ( talk) 19:25, 18 May 2022 (UTC)
- Keep. It is very much an established scene of hip hop that has its own identity. Velo ciraptor 888 18:59, 19 May 2022 (UTC)
- That's just the thing. It has a fractured geographic "scene" identity related to various metropolitan city scenes—there's a Dallas scene, a Chicago scene, etc. There is nothing tying the whole midwest area together and it's not a definable musical genre.
Binksternet (
talk)
14:24, 23 May 2022 (UTC)
- i do explain that it is still a genre. being fractured doesn't mean it's not a genre as my sources demonstrate and genres like idm demonstrate. so why should we delete it? Matsuiny2004 ( talk) 21:04, 23 May 2022 (UTC)
- That's just the thing. It has a fractured geographic "scene" identity related to various metropolitan city scenes—there's a Dallas scene, a Chicago scene, etc. There is nothing tying the whole midwest area together and it's not a definable musical genre.
Binksternet (
talk)
14:24, 23 May 2022 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, ✗ plicit 00:10, 26 May 2022 (UTC)Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, North America 1000 12:28, 2 June 2022 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the
deletion sorting lists for the following topics:
Geography and
United States of America.
North America
1000
12:29, 2 June 2022 (UTC)
- This is currently a C-class article. The rater tool suggests it should be at least a B. There's lots of information here, sourced with 105 citations. It seems solid. To say it is, I'd need to spend a lot of time reviewing. Even just he first two citations seems to suggest it's specifically a notable thing. But I don't know the sources well enough to say they are. So it seems this is a clear keep. But for me to !vote as such, I'd want to be more certain. Can the people who know and support keeping this make it easier for me to reach conclusions by sharing the top three best sources, ones that are at the intersection of this exact topic and being reliable sources with significant coverage? For now I'm "leaning keep" but will upgrade or downgrade depending on what people say about my comments here. CT55555 ( talk) 15:50, 2 June 2022 (UTC)
- Delete - This is a list of hip-hop artists from the Midwest, and a description of local music scenes. It is a synthesis of ideas from other article, with nothing to support that "Midwest hip hop" is a unique genre. The only explanation in the article is the unencyclopedic "The Midwest style is also more complex with funkier vibes than what you would hear from the coasts." Funkier vibes? Some of the sources cited which try to explain this genre include:
- [1] - a blog post.
- "very real and non-pretentious".
- "The Midwest in particular is considered to be a melting pot of styles".
- "A lot of rap enthusiasts have trouble pinpointing exactly what the Midwest sound is like".
- [2]:
- "The Midwest is the bastard child of the American rap scene at large -- unsung and independent, with a massive chip on its shoulder".
- [3]:
- "It's just grittier".
- The Midwest style "truly reflects the times. The artists lived the lives they rap about. The lyrics can be overwhelming, but they are truth. They tell the stories about what they have experienced".
- "Besides the reality of the rhymes, the accompanying music is also unique. 'The Midwest style is also more complex with funkier vibes than what you would hear from the coasts'".
- I looked for additional sources and found Hip Hop in America, A Regional Guide, which offered no definition of Midwest hip hop, explaining that "Midwest hip hop artists don't have a well-trodden musical path to follow" (p. 314). Magnolia677 ( talk) 10:45, 9 June 2022 (UTC)
- Delete per Magnolia677's in-depth analysis as WP:SYNTH and as a result delete the list too as a non-encyclopedic cross-categorization. RandomCanadian ( talk / contribs) 15:05, 12 June 2022 (UTC)
- Move to Hip hop in the midwestern United States and refactor into an article on the phenomenon within the geography, rather than forcing a fit into a concept of a phenomenon of the geography. BD2412 T 20:40, 12 June 2022 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was delete. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs talk 18:46, 13 June 2022 (UTC)
[Hide this box] New to Articles for deletion (AfD)? Read these primers!
- Midwest hip hop ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log | edits since nomination)
- (Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
There is no topic here other than a List of rappers from the midwest United States. Certainly there is no established style of midwest hip hop: see the Denver source saying "artists from the Midwest have succeeded each with their own unique style and flavor". Chopper (rap) is from the Midwest, but the Midwest is not all chopper. There is no defining style of Midwest rap music except the geography of origin. I suggest creating a list of hip hop artists from this geography. Binksternet ( talk) 19:00, 18 May 2022 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Music-related deletion discussions. Binksternet ( talk) 19:00, 18 May 2022 (UTC)
- Delete, synthesis of ideas with no clear coherent topic. Ten Pound Hammer • ( What did I screw up now?) 19:16, 18 May 2022 (UTC)
I have edited the introduction to make it more than just s list of subgenres. There's more sources on it than east coast hip hop and an explanation that there's a bias towards midwest hip hop not being a real genre. Complexity or being nebulous doesn't mean it's not a genre as IDM demonstrates. IDM is a nebulous genre with very minimal defining characteristics that even its creators reject as a label and argue isn't a real genre. Same with progressive music. Just like midwest hip hop. If were deleting midwest hip hop based off citations then we should delete east coast hip hop which has way less citations, progressive music and the IDM pages to by this logic. I even explained the distinct influences and lyricism in general for it. I've added sources explaining why it's a genre in and of itself as well as demonstrating the overlap between subregions sounds. At least a few of them. Synthesis is based on sources and patterns it reveals. This is not original research since the citations justify these conclusions. The entire explanation for why it is in the introduction is not entirely synthesis. Many parts are just stating exactly what those articles say. even then extrapolating based on patterns of data from cited sources is not original research that would violate Wikipedia's synthesis policy. A loosely connected genre is still a genre. I have sources that clearly demonstrate there are connecting characteristics between subregions sounds that make it a genre even if those could be considered subgenres of this genre. Umbrella terms as shown by the other articles I mentioned can be genres if there's a minimal set of characteristics. This page thus should be seen as a page needing improvement and based off this it shouldn't be deleted based of wikipedia's own deletion standard. Matsuiny2004 ( talk) 19:25, 18 May 2022 (UTC)
- Keep. It is very much an established scene of hip hop that has its own identity. Velo ciraptor 888 18:59, 19 May 2022 (UTC)
- That's just the thing. It has a fractured geographic "scene" identity related to various metropolitan city scenes—there's a Dallas scene, a Chicago scene, etc. There is nothing tying the whole midwest area together and it's not a definable musical genre.
Binksternet (
talk)
14:24, 23 May 2022 (UTC)
- i do explain that it is still a genre. being fractured doesn't mean it's not a genre as my sources demonstrate and genres like idm demonstrate. so why should we delete it? Matsuiny2004 ( talk) 21:04, 23 May 2022 (UTC)
- That's just the thing. It has a fractured geographic "scene" identity related to various metropolitan city scenes—there's a Dallas scene, a Chicago scene, etc. There is nothing tying the whole midwest area together and it's not a definable musical genre.
Binksternet (
talk)
14:24, 23 May 2022 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, ✗ plicit 00:10, 26 May 2022 (UTC)Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, North America 1000 12:28, 2 June 2022 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the
deletion sorting lists for the following topics:
Geography and
United States of America.
North America
1000
12:29, 2 June 2022 (UTC)
- This is currently a C-class article. The rater tool suggests it should be at least a B. There's lots of information here, sourced with 105 citations. It seems solid. To say it is, I'd need to spend a lot of time reviewing. Even just he first two citations seems to suggest it's specifically a notable thing. But I don't know the sources well enough to say they are. So it seems this is a clear keep. But for me to !vote as such, I'd want to be more certain. Can the people who know and support keeping this make it easier for me to reach conclusions by sharing the top three best sources, ones that are at the intersection of this exact topic and being reliable sources with significant coverage? For now I'm "leaning keep" but will upgrade or downgrade depending on what people say about my comments here. CT55555 ( talk) 15:50, 2 June 2022 (UTC)
- Delete - This is a list of hip-hop artists from the Midwest, and a description of local music scenes. It is a synthesis of ideas from other article, with nothing to support that "Midwest hip hop" is a unique genre. The only explanation in the article is the unencyclopedic "The Midwest style is also more complex with funkier vibes than what you would hear from the coasts." Funkier vibes? Some of the sources cited which try to explain this genre include:
- [1] - a blog post.
- "very real and non-pretentious".
- "The Midwest in particular is considered to be a melting pot of styles".
- "A lot of rap enthusiasts have trouble pinpointing exactly what the Midwest sound is like".
- [2]:
- "The Midwest is the bastard child of the American rap scene at large -- unsung and independent, with a massive chip on its shoulder".
- [3]:
- "It's just grittier".
- The Midwest style "truly reflects the times. The artists lived the lives they rap about. The lyrics can be overwhelming, but they are truth. They tell the stories about what they have experienced".
- "Besides the reality of the rhymes, the accompanying music is also unique. 'The Midwest style is also more complex with funkier vibes than what you would hear from the coasts'".
- I looked for additional sources and found Hip Hop in America, A Regional Guide, which offered no definition of Midwest hip hop, explaining that "Midwest hip hop artists don't have a well-trodden musical path to follow" (p. 314). Magnolia677 ( talk) 10:45, 9 June 2022 (UTC)
- Delete per Magnolia677's in-depth analysis as WP:SYNTH and as a result delete the list too as a non-encyclopedic cross-categorization. RandomCanadian ( talk / contribs) 15:05, 12 June 2022 (UTC)
- Move to Hip hop in the midwestern United States and refactor into an article on the phenomenon within the geography, rather than forcing a fit into a concept of a phenomenon of the geography. BD2412 T 20:40, 12 June 2022 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.