- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was keep, nomination withdrawn. WP:NAUTHOR is met and WP:PROF#C1 is arguably met even if WP:PROF#C5 is not. XOR'easter ( talk) 19:55, 1 September 2023 (UTC) ( non-admin closure)
Michael Fitzgerald (psychiatrist)
[Hide this box] New to Articles for deletion (AfD)? Read these primers!
- Michael Fitzgerald (psychiatrist) ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log | edits since nomination)
- (Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
Appears to fail WP:PROF. The closest I can come is his being the "Henry Marsh Professor of Child and Adolescent Psychiatry at Trinity College, Dublin" (1996-2010), except no one can find any reference to this "chair" being created, or to anyone who held it before Fitzgerald (which seems improbable anyway, since Henry Marsh (neurosurgeon) himself was only 46 in 1996), or since. See Talk:Michael_Fitzgerald_(psychiatrist)#Notable?. Pinging everyone who particiapted there: User:Tryptofish, User:ElKevbo, User:Tacyarg. E Eng 21:07, 29 August 2023 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Academics and educators-related deletion discussions. E Eng 21:07, 29 August 2023 (UTC)
- Comment. The Marsh Professorship is at least verifiable through official TCD documents and not just Fitzgerald's own cv: the
TCD Calendar 2007–2008 lists him as "Henry Marsh Professor of Child and Adolescent Psychiatry (1996)", where I think the year is the founding of the chair. Maybe it was named for
Sir Henry Marsh, 1st Baronet? —
David Eppstein (
talk)
21:44, 29 August 2023 (UTC)
- Sorry, I should have been clearer. I'm not questioning whether he held the position, but I am questioning whether the position truly qualifies as a "named chair appointment or distinguished professor appointment". I mean, obviously it has a name, but the fact that it seems to have been a one-off (i.e. it seems to have been vacant since Fitzgerald gave it up) makes me wonder what's really going on. Interesting that you've found another candidate Henry Marsh (and this one Irish -- mine was English, and we're talking about Trinity Dublin) but the fact that neither you nor I nor anyone else seems to be able to figure out the origin of this "chair" is a further bad sign. E Eng 23:15, 29 August 2023 (UTC)
- Comment. It seems to me that a strict reading of WP:PROF kind of "forces" a keep on the basis of that named chair, but I'm not a big fan of technical reasons for notability when they seem at odds with common sense. (I don't think the history of the chair matters for our purposes, since being the inaugural Professor in that position is, arguably, a reason to find notability.) I'm having trouble seeing any other reasons to keep. I'm going to wait another day or so, before making up my mind about this AfD, but I feel it is useful for me to register these thoughts now. -- Tryptofish ( talk) 22:20, 29 August 2023 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Psychiatry and Ireland. Spiderone (Talk to Spider) 22:24, 29 August 2023 (UTC)
Weak delete.I see this as a borderline case. On the plus side, we have clear sourcing that he has held a named chair professorship; it does not matter that there is little or no information on the creation of the chair, or that he was the first person to hold it, or that the chair has not been filled after he retired from it.But on the minus side, I looked at his publications at Google Scholar, and in particular I looked at the numbers of times his publications were cited by others. He has a couple of publications that got cited a few hundred times, but most of them have citations in the tens. Comparing that with other prominent academic psychiatrists, who have corresponding numbers in the hundreds to thousands, leads me to conclude that his work has had a modest impact in his field. That makes me come down, weakly, on the side of him not really passing WP:PROF.-- Tryptofish ( talk) 20:53, 30 August 2023 (UTC)- Well again, my point is that the lack of any trace of reference of any kind, anywhere, to this "chair", other than that Fitzgerald seems to have held the position for a period, makes me wonder whether it's indeed a distinguished professorship instead of a hopeful label that never got off the ground. Anyway, I do think "weak delete" is the right way of putting it.
E
Eng
19:43, 31 August 2023 (UTC) P.S. Here
[1] we learn that Fitzgerald was the first occupant, which to be honest makes it even weirder that there's no trace of any annoucement of where this chair comes from.
- Actually, the Trinity College calendars linked to by David also show the year the chair was established as being the same year that Fitzgerald was named to it. But your link in the PS part of your comment refers only to him claiming to be the first person in Ireland to be tenured as a Professor of Child and Adolescent Psychiatry, but that's not as the named chair. I think your insistence on it being a "hopeful label" is just a distraction from this AfD discussion, because there's nothing remarkable about a university position not being filled after someone steps down from it. That might just mean that the faculty search was unsuccessful, something that happens fairly often in academia. -- Tryptofish ( talk) 20:00, 31 August 2023 (UTC)
- Well again, my point is that the lack of any trace of reference of any kind, anywhere, to this "chair", other than that Fitzgerald seems to have held the position for a period, makes me wonder whether it's indeed a distinguished professorship instead of a hopeful label that never got off the ground. Anyway, I do think "weak delete" is the right way of putting it.
E
Eng
19:43, 31 August 2023 (UTC) P.S. Here
[1] we learn that Fitzgerald was the first occupant, which to be honest makes it even weirder that there's no trace of any annoucement of where this chair comes from.
- Changed to keep. Other editors, below, have clearly demonstrated that I screwed up in my citation search. Woops. Therefore, his impact in his field is clearly demonstrated, and that makes for an unambiguous "keep". -- Tryptofish ( talk) 19:01, 1 September 2023 (UTC)
- strong keep. I dont think the chair is reason enough to keep the article but a professor with 42 papers with 100+ citations and an h-index of 58 clearly passes the bar for
WP:NPROF#1 - applying a much higher standard here than in other AfD discussions does not seem to make sense to me. --
hroest
21:13, 31 August 2023 (UTC)
- I'm confused. I only saw a few papers with that many citations. -- Tryptofish ( talk) 21:39, 31 August 2023 (UTC)
- Comment. Here are the Scopus metrics for 200+ of Fitzgerald's coauthors with 20+ papers (absent the ones from one consensus statement with a million authors):
Total citations: average: 17819, median: 8627, Fitzgerald: 6717.
Total papers: 242, 162, 198.
h-index: 57, 45, 40.
Top 5 citations: 1st: 1495, 834, 636. 2nd: 906, 498, 447. 3rd: 704, 388, 339. 4th: 580, 324, 298. 5th: 493, 295, 294.This is an extremely high-citation field. JoelleJay ( talk) 02:09, 1 September 2023 (UTC) - Keep as a pass of
WP:Author. I found nine academic reviews of Autism and Creativity: Is There a Link Between Autism in Men and Exceptional Ability? including the British Medical Journal and the Lancet.
[1] (One a joint review with the next book.) I found four reviews of The Genesis of Artistic Creativity: Asperger's Syndrome and the Arts (one a joint review with the previous book).
[2] I found one review each of Young, Violent & Dangerous to Know and Unstoppable Brilliance: Irish Geniuses and Asperger's Syndrome (cites included in the article, but not here.) --
Jahaza (
talk)
02:21, 1 September 2023 (UTC)
- I found a second review of Unstoppable Brilliance although I haven't been able to access it. [2] Jahaza ( talk) 03:14, 1 September 2023 (UTC)
References
-
^
Reviewed in:
- Morris, Kelly (February 2004). "Move over, you neurotypicals…". The Lancet. 363 (9410): 742–743. doi: 10.1016/S0140-6736(04)15653-5.
- McClure, Iain (6 May 2004). "Autism and Creativity: Is there a Link between Autism in Men and Exceptional Ability?". BMJ. 328 (7448): 1139. doi: 10.1136/bmj.328.7448.1139-a. ISSN 0959-8138. Retrieved 1 September 2023.
- Barber, Christopher (August 2005). "Autism and Creativity: Is There a Link Between Autism in Men and Exceptional Ability?". Journal of Psychiatric and Mental Health Nursing. 12 (4): 506–508. doi: 10.1111/j.1365-2850.2005.00860.x. ISSN 1351-0126.
- McDougall, Tim (October 2004). "Autism and creativity Michael Fitzgerald Autism and creativity Brunner-Routledge 300 £29.99 hardback 15839121341583912134". Mental Health Practice. 8 (2): 28–28. doi: 10.7748/mhp.8.2.28.s25.
- Dosani, Sabina (March 2005). "Autism and Creativity: Is There a Link between Autism in Men and Exceptional Ability? By Michael Fitzgerald. London: Taylor & Francis. 2003. 294 pp. £29.99 (hb). ISBN 1 583912134". British Journal of Psychiatry. 186 (3): 267–267. doi: 10.1192/bjp.186.3.267.
- Davies, D.P. (2004). "Autism and Creativity (Book)". Clinical Child Psychology & Psychiatry. 9 (4): 617–619.
- Snyder, Allan (April 2004). "Autistic genius?". Nature. 428 (6982): 470–471. doi: 10.1038/428470a. ISSN 1476-4687. Retrieved 1 September 2023.
- McGrath, James (2007). "Reading Autism". Interdisciplinary Literary Studies. 8 (2): 100–113. ISSN 1524-8429. Retrieved 1 September 2023.
- Lauritsen, Marlene B. (October 2004). "Autism and creativity. Is there a link between autism and exceptional ability". Acta Psychiatrica Scandinavica. 110 (4): 316–316. doi: 10.1111/j.1600-0447.2004.00390.x.
-
^
Reviewed in:
- Hewston, Ruth (Spring 2007). "Book Review (Celebrating Genius): The Genesis of Artistic Creativity, by Michael Fitzgerald (2005) and The Nature of Creative Development, by J. S. Feinstein (2006)". Gifted Children. 2: 10. ISSN 2326-1544. Retrieved 1 September 2023.
- Persaud, Raj (January 2007). "The Genesis of Artistic Creativity – Asperger's Syndrome and the Arts Michael Fitzgerald Jessica Kingsley, 2005, £13.95 pb, 256 pp. ISBN: 1 84310 334 6". Psychiatric Bulletin. 31 (1): 39–39. doi: 10.1192/pb.31.1.39.
- Lee, Sang-Hie (January 2007). "Book Review: The Genesis of Artistic Creativity: Asperger's Syndrome and the Arts". Psychology of Music. 35 (1): 172–173. doi: 10.1177/030573560703500110. Retrieved 1 September 2023.
- McGrath, James (2007). "Reading Autism". Interdisciplinary Literary Studies. 8 (2): 100–113. ISSN 1524-8429. Retrieved 1 September 2023.
- Keep. We now have a clear case for
WP:AUTHOR and a plausible case for
WP:PROF#C1, so we no longer need to clarify the case for #C5. —
David Eppstein (
talk)
18:24, 1 September 2023 (UTC)
- OK, let's 86 this AfD PDQ. E Eng 19:08, 1 September 2023 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was keep, nomination withdrawn. WP:NAUTHOR is met and WP:PROF#C1 is arguably met even if WP:PROF#C5 is not. XOR'easter ( talk) 19:55, 1 September 2023 (UTC) ( non-admin closure)
Michael Fitzgerald (psychiatrist)
[Hide this box] New to Articles for deletion (AfD)? Read these primers!
- Michael Fitzgerald (psychiatrist) ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log | edits since nomination)
- (Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
Appears to fail WP:PROF. The closest I can come is his being the "Henry Marsh Professor of Child and Adolescent Psychiatry at Trinity College, Dublin" (1996-2010), except no one can find any reference to this "chair" being created, or to anyone who held it before Fitzgerald (which seems improbable anyway, since Henry Marsh (neurosurgeon) himself was only 46 in 1996), or since. See Talk:Michael_Fitzgerald_(psychiatrist)#Notable?. Pinging everyone who particiapted there: User:Tryptofish, User:ElKevbo, User:Tacyarg. E Eng 21:07, 29 August 2023 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Academics and educators-related deletion discussions. E Eng 21:07, 29 August 2023 (UTC)
- Comment. The Marsh Professorship is at least verifiable through official TCD documents and not just Fitzgerald's own cv: the
TCD Calendar 2007–2008 lists him as "Henry Marsh Professor of Child and Adolescent Psychiatry (1996)", where I think the year is the founding of the chair. Maybe it was named for
Sir Henry Marsh, 1st Baronet? —
David Eppstein (
talk)
21:44, 29 August 2023 (UTC)
- Sorry, I should have been clearer. I'm not questioning whether he held the position, but I am questioning whether the position truly qualifies as a "named chair appointment or distinguished professor appointment". I mean, obviously it has a name, but the fact that it seems to have been a one-off (i.e. it seems to have been vacant since Fitzgerald gave it up) makes me wonder what's really going on. Interesting that you've found another candidate Henry Marsh (and this one Irish -- mine was English, and we're talking about Trinity Dublin) but the fact that neither you nor I nor anyone else seems to be able to figure out the origin of this "chair" is a further bad sign. E Eng 23:15, 29 August 2023 (UTC)
- Comment. It seems to me that a strict reading of WP:PROF kind of "forces" a keep on the basis of that named chair, but I'm not a big fan of technical reasons for notability when they seem at odds with common sense. (I don't think the history of the chair matters for our purposes, since being the inaugural Professor in that position is, arguably, a reason to find notability.) I'm having trouble seeing any other reasons to keep. I'm going to wait another day or so, before making up my mind about this AfD, but I feel it is useful for me to register these thoughts now. -- Tryptofish ( talk) 22:20, 29 August 2023 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Psychiatry and Ireland. Spiderone (Talk to Spider) 22:24, 29 August 2023 (UTC)
Weak delete.I see this as a borderline case. On the plus side, we have clear sourcing that he has held a named chair professorship; it does not matter that there is little or no information on the creation of the chair, or that he was the first person to hold it, or that the chair has not been filled after he retired from it.But on the minus side, I looked at his publications at Google Scholar, and in particular I looked at the numbers of times his publications were cited by others. He has a couple of publications that got cited a few hundred times, but most of them have citations in the tens. Comparing that with other prominent academic psychiatrists, who have corresponding numbers in the hundreds to thousands, leads me to conclude that his work has had a modest impact in his field. That makes me come down, weakly, on the side of him not really passing WP:PROF.-- Tryptofish ( talk) 20:53, 30 August 2023 (UTC)- Well again, my point is that the lack of any trace of reference of any kind, anywhere, to this "chair", other than that Fitzgerald seems to have held the position for a period, makes me wonder whether it's indeed a distinguished professorship instead of a hopeful label that never got off the ground. Anyway, I do think "weak delete" is the right way of putting it.
E
Eng
19:43, 31 August 2023 (UTC) P.S. Here
[1] we learn that Fitzgerald was the first occupant, which to be honest makes it even weirder that there's no trace of any annoucement of where this chair comes from.
- Actually, the Trinity College calendars linked to by David also show the year the chair was established as being the same year that Fitzgerald was named to it. But your link in the PS part of your comment refers only to him claiming to be the first person in Ireland to be tenured as a Professor of Child and Adolescent Psychiatry, but that's not as the named chair. I think your insistence on it being a "hopeful label" is just a distraction from this AfD discussion, because there's nothing remarkable about a university position not being filled after someone steps down from it. That might just mean that the faculty search was unsuccessful, something that happens fairly often in academia. -- Tryptofish ( talk) 20:00, 31 August 2023 (UTC)
- Well again, my point is that the lack of any trace of reference of any kind, anywhere, to this "chair", other than that Fitzgerald seems to have held the position for a period, makes me wonder whether it's indeed a distinguished professorship instead of a hopeful label that never got off the ground. Anyway, I do think "weak delete" is the right way of putting it.
E
Eng
19:43, 31 August 2023 (UTC) P.S. Here
[1] we learn that Fitzgerald was the first occupant, which to be honest makes it even weirder that there's no trace of any annoucement of where this chair comes from.
- Changed to keep. Other editors, below, have clearly demonstrated that I screwed up in my citation search. Woops. Therefore, his impact in his field is clearly demonstrated, and that makes for an unambiguous "keep". -- Tryptofish ( talk) 19:01, 1 September 2023 (UTC)
- strong keep. I dont think the chair is reason enough to keep the article but a professor with 42 papers with 100+ citations and an h-index of 58 clearly passes the bar for
WP:NPROF#1 - applying a much higher standard here than in other AfD discussions does not seem to make sense to me. --
hroest
21:13, 31 August 2023 (UTC)
- I'm confused. I only saw a few papers with that many citations. -- Tryptofish ( talk) 21:39, 31 August 2023 (UTC)
- Comment. Here are the Scopus metrics for 200+ of Fitzgerald's coauthors with 20+ papers (absent the ones from one consensus statement with a million authors):
Total citations: average: 17819, median: 8627, Fitzgerald: 6717.
Total papers: 242, 162, 198.
h-index: 57, 45, 40.
Top 5 citations: 1st: 1495, 834, 636. 2nd: 906, 498, 447. 3rd: 704, 388, 339. 4th: 580, 324, 298. 5th: 493, 295, 294.This is an extremely high-citation field. JoelleJay ( talk) 02:09, 1 September 2023 (UTC) - Keep as a pass of
WP:Author. I found nine academic reviews of Autism and Creativity: Is There a Link Between Autism in Men and Exceptional Ability? including the British Medical Journal and the Lancet.
[1] (One a joint review with the next book.) I found four reviews of The Genesis of Artistic Creativity: Asperger's Syndrome and the Arts (one a joint review with the previous book).
[2] I found one review each of Young, Violent & Dangerous to Know and Unstoppable Brilliance: Irish Geniuses and Asperger's Syndrome (cites included in the article, but not here.) --
Jahaza (
talk)
02:21, 1 September 2023 (UTC)
- I found a second review of Unstoppable Brilliance although I haven't been able to access it. [2] Jahaza ( talk) 03:14, 1 September 2023 (UTC)
References
-
^
Reviewed in:
- Morris, Kelly (February 2004). "Move over, you neurotypicals…". The Lancet. 363 (9410): 742–743. doi: 10.1016/S0140-6736(04)15653-5.
- McClure, Iain (6 May 2004). "Autism and Creativity: Is there a Link between Autism in Men and Exceptional Ability?". BMJ. 328 (7448): 1139. doi: 10.1136/bmj.328.7448.1139-a. ISSN 0959-8138. Retrieved 1 September 2023.
- Barber, Christopher (August 2005). "Autism and Creativity: Is There a Link Between Autism in Men and Exceptional Ability?". Journal of Psychiatric and Mental Health Nursing. 12 (4): 506–508. doi: 10.1111/j.1365-2850.2005.00860.x. ISSN 1351-0126.
- McDougall, Tim (October 2004). "Autism and creativity Michael Fitzgerald Autism and creativity Brunner-Routledge 300 £29.99 hardback 15839121341583912134". Mental Health Practice. 8 (2): 28–28. doi: 10.7748/mhp.8.2.28.s25.
- Dosani, Sabina (March 2005). "Autism and Creativity: Is There a Link between Autism in Men and Exceptional Ability? By Michael Fitzgerald. London: Taylor & Francis. 2003. 294 pp. £29.99 (hb). ISBN 1 583912134". British Journal of Psychiatry. 186 (3): 267–267. doi: 10.1192/bjp.186.3.267.
- Davies, D.P. (2004). "Autism and Creativity (Book)". Clinical Child Psychology & Psychiatry. 9 (4): 617–619.
- Snyder, Allan (April 2004). "Autistic genius?". Nature. 428 (6982): 470–471. doi: 10.1038/428470a. ISSN 1476-4687. Retrieved 1 September 2023.
- McGrath, James (2007). "Reading Autism". Interdisciplinary Literary Studies. 8 (2): 100–113. ISSN 1524-8429. Retrieved 1 September 2023.
- Lauritsen, Marlene B. (October 2004). "Autism and creativity. Is there a link between autism and exceptional ability". Acta Psychiatrica Scandinavica. 110 (4): 316–316. doi: 10.1111/j.1600-0447.2004.00390.x.
-
^
Reviewed in:
- Hewston, Ruth (Spring 2007). "Book Review (Celebrating Genius): The Genesis of Artistic Creativity, by Michael Fitzgerald (2005) and The Nature of Creative Development, by J. S. Feinstein (2006)". Gifted Children. 2: 10. ISSN 2326-1544. Retrieved 1 September 2023.
- Persaud, Raj (January 2007). "The Genesis of Artistic Creativity – Asperger's Syndrome and the Arts Michael Fitzgerald Jessica Kingsley, 2005, £13.95 pb, 256 pp. ISBN: 1 84310 334 6". Psychiatric Bulletin. 31 (1): 39–39. doi: 10.1192/pb.31.1.39.
- Lee, Sang-Hie (January 2007). "Book Review: The Genesis of Artistic Creativity: Asperger's Syndrome and the Arts". Psychology of Music. 35 (1): 172–173. doi: 10.1177/030573560703500110. Retrieved 1 September 2023.
- McGrath, James (2007). "Reading Autism". Interdisciplinary Literary Studies. 8 (2): 100–113. ISSN 1524-8429. Retrieved 1 September 2023.
- Keep. We now have a clear case for
WP:AUTHOR and a plausible case for
WP:PROF#C1, so we no longer need to clarify the case for #C5. —
David Eppstein (
talk)
18:24, 1 September 2023 (UTC)
- OK, let's 86 this AfD PDQ. E Eng 19:08, 1 September 2023 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.