- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was delete. Arminden, please take a look at WP:BLUDGEON. Sandstein 14:19, 6 August 2022 (UTC)
Mawsim (disambiguation)
[Hide this box] New to Articles for deletion (AfD)? Read these primers!
- Mawsim (disambiguation) ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log | edits since nomination)
- (Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
This page is not required. In Enwiki there is only one article titled, or might otherwise be titled, Mawsim, and that article has a hatnote to wikt. No other entry on the page is a valid entry per MOS:DAB. PROD removed by @ Arminden:. Shhhnotsoloud ( talk) 12:35, 29 July 2022 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Disambiguations-related deletion discussions. Shhhnotsoloud ( talk) 12:35, 29 July 2022 (UTC)
- Keep: it serves the user. That should be enough. One page covering the whole range of meanings and variants, which
Mawsim does not. Moussem (Arabic) is a variant and has one more article. Similarly Mevsim (Turkish), which has several related articles. Neither Wiktionary (of which there are two linked pages, not just one!), nor
Mawsim covers the range of topics bundled together here. Also, given the range and importance of the Arabic/Muslim term mawsim/moussem, there are certainly more articles to come: google for these terms and see for yourselves. Just one example: "Moussem Moulay Abdellah Amghar", the moussem from the commune of Moulay Abdellah, has been proposed for the UNESCO Cultural Heritage list etc.
Arminden (
talk) 14:07, 29 July 2022 (UTC)
- Policy and guidelines require disambiguation pages to adhere to standards—this does not—or articles about a topic, which this is perhaps attempting to be, to be properly-sourced to ensure WP:Verifiability—this is not. Shhhnotsoloud ( talk) 08:52, 30 July 2022 (UTC)
- Comment: is there any reason why our readers would go searching for Mawsim when they are interested in Tan-Tan Moussem, or in Turkish films whose titles contain the Turkish word Mevsim? I know all three words are related and mean "Season", but to an English reader, they are spelled quite differently, and I doubt any English-speaking reader would type Mawsim when they're thinking Mevsim, or would have read a lot about Turkish films in Arabic-language sites. If no one is likely to go looking for these other pages using the word Mawsim, then the DAB isn't helping anyone. But I don't feel strongly about deleting DABs.
Elemimele (
talk) 16:38, 29 July 2022 (UTC)
- Reply: Wrong way round. I landed here looking for the meaning of mawsim, and by reading & editing it, I learned what it means etymologically, what it means culturally, especially in the French-influenced Maghreb, how it took a different shade when adopted by the Turks, and in the end understood a whole linguistic and cultural phenomenon. All I had known before was "fantasia", which sounded like a word made up by Europeans. That's why I used to love perusing through old encyclopaedias as a kid, and still do like getting as much of the picture as possible. One can indeed come searching for connections or know about N aspects and search for a specific additional one, but more often than not, any kind of well-written piece opens up a wider horizon than expected. The difference between an encyclopaedia and a technical tutorial. Arminden ( talk) 21:26, 29 July 2022 (UTC)
- Delete. All of the entries other than the primary topic are
WP:partial title matches, hence there is nothing to disambiguate.
Clarityfiend (
talk) 06:46, 30 July 2022 (UTC)
- Reply: The conflict is between bureaucracy (rule ACX/97 §15b) vs the benefit of the user who gets the bigger picture - and there is no downside to it whatsoever. Now you tell me. Who knew before reaching this page about the connection between mawsim, moussem, mevsim, what they mean ("season" mutating to "jubilee"), and what connects them (Muslim, Arabic-based culture, which took different forms in different regions, under different influences - Bedouin/Berber, French, Turkish) before coming here? I didn't, until I did a research, which is now done and here to learn the results of. Bureaucracy is a disease that kills the spirit. Arminden ( talk) 07:13, 30 July 2022 (UTC)
- Did someone not click the Wiktionary page from the hatnote? I agree that 'bureaucracy is a disease that kills the spirit," but I don't think that that is what is going on here. - Bejnar ( talk) 16:18, 30 July 2022 (UTC)
- There are THREE Wiktionary pages linked. I have put in 2 of the 3. The Arabic Wikt. entry is the key one and it wasn't mentioned. It's not about reading Arabic, the Wikt. entry is all in English. All information is for the English-speaking, curious user. It was also me who put in the variant "moussem" into the lead of which there was no mention, and the Turkish "mevsim". Only now one knows to connect the three, not before, and not by only looking up mawsim. That is part of the gain one has by using such a page after it evolved to the stage it's at now: one sees connections, context, lexical and semantic evolution. Not a technical spreadsheet or oversized one-way redirect, but a crossroads to related information. Arminden ( talk) 16:42, 30 July 2022 (UTC)
- Delete If one is looking for Turkish films, they probably should start with Lists of Turkish films and not at Mawsim. If they want to find all Wikipedia articles that mention 'mawsim' they should run that search. If there are films that primarily deal with mawsim, then an appropriate sub-section in that article could be written to cover them. Partial title matches are really only useful to the searcher where they are also known by the shorter nickname of the entry word. -- Bejnar ( talk) 16:18, 30 July 2022 (UTC)
- @ Arminden: Wider context is usually provided in summary in the lead of an article, and in more detail in a section on etymology or history, or in a 'cultural aspects' section. That is not the function of a disambiguation page. -- Bejnar ( talk) 18:10, 30 July 2022 (UTC)
- Bejnar, thank you for entering the argument. I've been here so many times. Theory vs reality. Do you see anywhere an enWiki article on the Arabic word for "season" and its wide & important ramifications in the Muslim world? Are you planning to write one? I guess not. Now it's here (in a minimal form), we have it, it doesn't cost anyone anything - why remove it? The only possible honest answer is: by principle, because the rules say so - which I read as: bureaucracy. Winning over intellectual benefit. See now what I mean? And because honest arguments do work like brainstorming: I'll look into the article on " season", maybe this material can be salvaged there. I'm not stubborn or irrational, I just want to combat enthropy the best I can.
- I did check. It only has a natural science approach, it doesn't fit at all, unless one adds a whole new dimension to it (history, culture). A bit too ambitious for me now. This here we have already. Does anyone volunteer to start an aricle on "Mawsim (season)" ? Start with what's here, add a bit more, and we can have a useful new stub. A constructive solution.
Arminden (
talk) 21:11, 30 July 2022 (UTC)
- @
Arminden: You are correct, this is not the proper place for content. Articles are the proper place for content. Your research gave you context and allowed you to extract meaning from this page, others will not have that benefit when they arrive here, nor should they expect to find content here. It is not bureaucratic, it is a sensible way to organize information. In general, the map should not be confused with the territory, navigation aids should not be confused with the target. --
Bejnar (
talk) 14:22, 1 August 2022 (UTC)
- @ Bejnar: Wait, not so fast! Whatever I found I put on the DAB page! The 2 very relevant additional Wikt entries, the original meaning of the word (season), the additional unchallenged example ( Tan-Tan Moussem), I put some order into the lot (there was 1 Turkish movie dumped it), fixed smaller mistakes (mevsim, not mevsimi the basic form; lower-case as common nouns).
- To remind you: this is how it looked like when I started editing it. Also, had I stayed away, nobody would have brought up the deletion of -- a much worse DAB. But those who want it deleted don't accept the facts, I keep on pointing them out, the same ones, and they keep on ignoring them in their counterfactual arguments. That's really not very productive. Compare the 3 January 2021 page with now: I AM SHARING my findings with the user! That's my/the whole point. Any user arriving here has it already available, and it's nowhere else -- put it in an article, and I'l transform the DAB into a redirect myself. Insisting to remove material which is useful, but not available anywhere else on enWiki for formal reasons: precisely that I call bureaucracy. And check DABs: lots of them offer the level of information found here. Again, reality vs abstract formal "rules". It goes against the spirit of Wiki, and by definition: the spirit has to have the upper hand. Even as per "the rules" :)
- PS: The truth is in the pudding. I arrived on the page while editing
Nebi Musa, looking for the wider meaning of mawsim: no answer back then, and very much so now. I would have been a very happy user to find what's on the page now. QED. And you want to take that away, for no gain whatsoever.
Arminden (
talk) 14:42, 1 August 2022 (UTC)
- If the content belongs in Wikipedia, by no means certain (see
WP:RS and
WP:N), put it where it belongs, not hidden in a DAB page. --
Bejnar (
talk) 15:08, 1 August 2022 (UTC)
- @
Bejnar: You can drive even a calmer person than me crazy, you know that? I'VE ANSWERED TO EVERY PART OF THAT ALREADY.
- "If the content belongs in Wikipedia, by no means certain" - "seasons in Islamic world" not encyclopedic, in your opinion?
- "see rule 1, rule 2" - AGAIN: not interested. This is so evidently useful encyclopedic material, we'd just end up interpreting bureaucratic rules AND contradicting the spirit of Wiki, its rule No. 1.
- "Put it where it belongs" - it belongs nowhere else, READ ABOVE! There is no other article on "seasons in Islamic world", and Season has nothing other than natural science, zero on cultural perception. That's why I have invited you & anyone who wishes to write such articles, for which I lack the time.
- "Not hidden in a DAB page" - not hidden at all, search for the term and it shows up. Reality check, as I said ALREADY.
- I'll try to stay out of this now. I've copied the info on my hard drive, do as you like, let everyone else go buy a Britannica if they want to learn things. Arminden ( talk) 16:00, 3 August 2022 (UTC)
- @
Bejnar: You can drive even a calmer person than me crazy, you know that? I'VE ANSWERED TO EVERY PART OF THAT ALREADY.
- If the content belongs in Wikipedia, by no means certain (see
WP:RS and
WP:N), put it where it belongs, not hidden in a DAB page. --
Bejnar (
talk) 15:08, 1 August 2022 (UTC)
- @
Arminden: You are correct, this is not the proper place for content. Articles are the proper place for content. Your research gave you context and allowed you to extract meaning from this page, others will not have that benefit when they arrive here, nor should they expect to find content here. It is not bureaucratic, it is a sensible way to organize information. In general, the map should not be confused with the territory, navigation aids should not be confused with the target. --
Bejnar (
talk) 14:22, 1 August 2022 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was delete. Arminden, please take a look at WP:BLUDGEON. Sandstein 14:19, 6 August 2022 (UTC)
Mawsim (disambiguation)
[Hide this box] New to Articles for deletion (AfD)? Read these primers!
- Mawsim (disambiguation) ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log | edits since nomination)
- (Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
This page is not required. In Enwiki there is only one article titled, or might otherwise be titled, Mawsim, and that article has a hatnote to wikt. No other entry on the page is a valid entry per MOS:DAB. PROD removed by @ Arminden:. Shhhnotsoloud ( talk) 12:35, 29 July 2022 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Disambiguations-related deletion discussions. Shhhnotsoloud ( talk) 12:35, 29 July 2022 (UTC)
- Keep: it serves the user. That should be enough. One page covering the whole range of meanings and variants, which
Mawsim does not. Moussem (Arabic) is a variant and has one more article. Similarly Mevsim (Turkish), which has several related articles. Neither Wiktionary (of which there are two linked pages, not just one!), nor
Mawsim covers the range of topics bundled together here. Also, given the range and importance of the Arabic/Muslim term mawsim/moussem, there are certainly more articles to come: google for these terms and see for yourselves. Just one example: "Moussem Moulay Abdellah Amghar", the moussem from the commune of Moulay Abdellah, has been proposed for the UNESCO Cultural Heritage list etc.
Arminden (
talk) 14:07, 29 July 2022 (UTC)
- Policy and guidelines require disambiguation pages to adhere to standards—this does not—or articles about a topic, which this is perhaps attempting to be, to be properly-sourced to ensure WP:Verifiability—this is not. Shhhnotsoloud ( talk) 08:52, 30 July 2022 (UTC)
- Comment: is there any reason why our readers would go searching for Mawsim when they are interested in Tan-Tan Moussem, or in Turkish films whose titles contain the Turkish word Mevsim? I know all three words are related and mean "Season", but to an English reader, they are spelled quite differently, and I doubt any English-speaking reader would type Mawsim when they're thinking Mevsim, or would have read a lot about Turkish films in Arabic-language sites. If no one is likely to go looking for these other pages using the word Mawsim, then the DAB isn't helping anyone. But I don't feel strongly about deleting DABs.
Elemimele (
talk) 16:38, 29 July 2022 (UTC)
- Reply: Wrong way round. I landed here looking for the meaning of mawsim, and by reading & editing it, I learned what it means etymologically, what it means culturally, especially in the French-influenced Maghreb, how it took a different shade when adopted by the Turks, and in the end understood a whole linguistic and cultural phenomenon. All I had known before was "fantasia", which sounded like a word made up by Europeans. That's why I used to love perusing through old encyclopaedias as a kid, and still do like getting as much of the picture as possible. One can indeed come searching for connections or know about N aspects and search for a specific additional one, but more often than not, any kind of well-written piece opens up a wider horizon than expected. The difference between an encyclopaedia and a technical tutorial. Arminden ( talk) 21:26, 29 July 2022 (UTC)
- Delete. All of the entries other than the primary topic are
WP:partial title matches, hence there is nothing to disambiguate.
Clarityfiend (
talk) 06:46, 30 July 2022 (UTC)
- Reply: The conflict is between bureaucracy (rule ACX/97 §15b) vs the benefit of the user who gets the bigger picture - and there is no downside to it whatsoever. Now you tell me. Who knew before reaching this page about the connection between mawsim, moussem, mevsim, what they mean ("season" mutating to "jubilee"), and what connects them (Muslim, Arabic-based culture, which took different forms in different regions, under different influences - Bedouin/Berber, French, Turkish) before coming here? I didn't, until I did a research, which is now done and here to learn the results of. Bureaucracy is a disease that kills the spirit. Arminden ( talk) 07:13, 30 July 2022 (UTC)
- Did someone not click the Wiktionary page from the hatnote? I agree that 'bureaucracy is a disease that kills the spirit," but I don't think that that is what is going on here. - Bejnar ( talk) 16:18, 30 July 2022 (UTC)
- There are THREE Wiktionary pages linked. I have put in 2 of the 3. The Arabic Wikt. entry is the key one and it wasn't mentioned. It's not about reading Arabic, the Wikt. entry is all in English. All information is for the English-speaking, curious user. It was also me who put in the variant "moussem" into the lead of which there was no mention, and the Turkish "mevsim". Only now one knows to connect the three, not before, and not by only looking up mawsim. That is part of the gain one has by using such a page after it evolved to the stage it's at now: one sees connections, context, lexical and semantic evolution. Not a technical spreadsheet or oversized one-way redirect, but a crossroads to related information. Arminden ( talk) 16:42, 30 July 2022 (UTC)
- Delete If one is looking for Turkish films, they probably should start with Lists of Turkish films and not at Mawsim. If they want to find all Wikipedia articles that mention 'mawsim' they should run that search. If there are films that primarily deal with mawsim, then an appropriate sub-section in that article could be written to cover them. Partial title matches are really only useful to the searcher where they are also known by the shorter nickname of the entry word. -- Bejnar ( talk) 16:18, 30 July 2022 (UTC)
- @ Arminden: Wider context is usually provided in summary in the lead of an article, and in more detail in a section on etymology or history, or in a 'cultural aspects' section. That is not the function of a disambiguation page. -- Bejnar ( talk) 18:10, 30 July 2022 (UTC)
- Bejnar, thank you for entering the argument. I've been here so many times. Theory vs reality. Do you see anywhere an enWiki article on the Arabic word for "season" and its wide & important ramifications in the Muslim world? Are you planning to write one? I guess not. Now it's here (in a minimal form), we have it, it doesn't cost anyone anything - why remove it? The only possible honest answer is: by principle, because the rules say so - which I read as: bureaucracy. Winning over intellectual benefit. See now what I mean? And because honest arguments do work like brainstorming: I'll look into the article on " season", maybe this material can be salvaged there. I'm not stubborn or irrational, I just want to combat enthropy the best I can.
- I did check. It only has a natural science approach, it doesn't fit at all, unless one adds a whole new dimension to it (history, culture). A bit too ambitious for me now. This here we have already. Does anyone volunteer to start an aricle on "Mawsim (season)" ? Start with what's here, add a bit more, and we can have a useful new stub. A constructive solution.
Arminden (
talk) 21:11, 30 July 2022 (UTC)
- @
Arminden: You are correct, this is not the proper place for content. Articles are the proper place for content. Your research gave you context and allowed you to extract meaning from this page, others will not have that benefit when they arrive here, nor should they expect to find content here. It is not bureaucratic, it is a sensible way to organize information. In general, the map should not be confused with the territory, navigation aids should not be confused with the target. --
Bejnar (
talk) 14:22, 1 August 2022 (UTC)
- @ Bejnar: Wait, not so fast! Whatever I found I put on the DAB page! The 2 very relevant additional Wikt entries, the original meaning of the word (season), the additional unchallenged example ( Tan-Tan Moussem), I put some order into the lot (there was 1 Turkish movie dumped it), fixed smaller mistakes (mevsim, not mevsimi the basic form; lower-case as common nouns).
- To remind you: this is how it looked like when I started editing it. Also, had I stayed away, nobody would have brought up the deletion of -- a much worse DAB. But those who want it deleted don't accept the facts, I keep on pointing them out, the same ones, and they keep on ignoring them in their counterfactual arguments. That's really not very productive. Compare the 3 January 2021 page with now: I AM SHARING my findings with the user! That's my/the whole point. Any user arriving here has it already available, and it's nowhere else -- put it in an article, and I'l transform the DAB into a redirect myself. Insisting to remove material which is useful, but not available anywhere else on enWiki for formal reasons: precisely that I call bureaucracy. And check DABs: lots of them offer the level of information found here. Again, reality vs abstract formal "rules". It goes against the spirit of Wiki, and by definition: the spirit has to have the upper hand. Even as per "the rules" :)
- PS: The truth is in the pudding. I arrived on the page while editing
Nebi Musa, looking for the wider meaning of mawsim: no answer back then, and very much so now. I would have been a very happy user to find what's on the page now. QED. And you want to take that away, for no gain whatsoever.
Arminden (
talk) 14:42, 1 August 2022 (UTC)
- If the content belongs in Wikipedia, by no means certain (see
WP:RS and
WP:N), put it where it belongs, not hidden in a DAB page. --
Bejnar (
talk) 15:08, 1 August 2022 (UTC)
- @
Bejnar: You can drive even a calmer person than me crazy, you know that? I'VE ANSWERED TO EVERY PART OF THAT ALREADY.
- "If the content belongs in Wikipedia, by no means certain" - "seasons in Islamic world" not encyclopedic, in your opinion?
- "see rule 1, rule 2" - AGAIN: not interested. This is so evidently useful encyclopedic material, we'd just end up interpreting bureaucratic rules AND contradicting the spirit of Wiki, its rule No. 1.
- "Put it where it belongs" - it belongs nowhere else, READ ABOVE! There is no other article on "seasons in Islamic world", and Season has nothing other than natural science, zero on cultural perception. That's why I have invited you & anyone who wishes to write such articles, for which I lack the time.
- "Not hidden in a DAB page" - not hidden at all, search for the term and it shows up. Reality check, as I said ALREADY.
- I'll try to stay out of this now. I've copied the info on my hard drive, do as you like, let everyone else go buy a Britannica if they want to learn things. Arminden ( talk) 16:00, 3 August 2022 (UTC)
- @
Bejnar: You can drive even a calmer person than me crazy, you know that? I'VE ANSWERED TO EVERY PART OF THAT ALREADY.
- If the content belongs in Wikipedia, by no means certain (see
WP:RS and
WP:N), put it where it belongs, not hidden in a DAB page. --
Bejnar (
talk) 15:08, 1 August 2022 (UTC)
- @
Arminden: You are correct, this is not the proper place for content. Articles are the proper place for content. Your research gave you context and allowed you to extract meaning from this page, others will not have that benefit when they arrive here, nor should they expect to find content here. It is not bureaucratic, it is a sensible way to organize information. In general, the map should not be confused with the territory, navigation aids should not be confused with the target. --
Bejnar (
talk) 14:22, 1 August 2022 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.