- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was keep. Consensus is that the topic may not have done or accomplished anything notable, but that the topic is notable per available sources (GNG) 78.26 ( spin me / revolutions) 16:39, 8 July 2021 (UTC)
Mary Somerset, Duchess of Beaufort
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If this person did anything that makes her pass WP:GNG, i.e. anything but be related to some people, then I do not see it in the article or in the publications that mention her. To me this looks like a genealogical entry. Surtsicna ( talk) 18:17, 30 June 2021 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of People-related deletion discussions. Surtsicna ( talk) 18:17, 30 June 2021 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Women-related deletion discussions. Surtsicna ( talk) 18:17, 30 June 2021 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of United Kingdom-related deletion discussions. Surtsicna ( talk) 18:17, 30 June 2021 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of England-related deletion discussions. Surtsicna ( talk) 18:17, 30 June 2021 (UTC)
- Delete. <sarcasm>OK, but she was bridesmaid at the wedding of Prince Albert, Duke of York. How much more notability would you want?</sarcasm> Athel cb ( talk) 18:37, 30 June 2021 (UTC)
Keep A quick search reveals tons of secondary source coverage. In particular, two academic articles about her plant cultivation habits: [1], [2]. Suriname0 ( talk) 14:09, 1 July 2021 (UTC)
- Oops, there are two Mary Somersets who were both Duchess of Beaufort. Suriname0 ( talk) 14:13, 1 July 2021 (UTC)
- Keep notable: obituary published in The Times Piecesofuk ( talk) 16:35, 1 July 2021 (UTC)
- Keep. I can't find a copy of her obituary on-line, but assuming it was by-lined, I believe that unpaid obituaries in prestigious newspapers are de facto evidence of notability. I'm also surprised that we don't have a page about her daughter-in-law, Caroline Beaufort, another notable noble. [1] pburka ( talk) 23:32, 1 July 2021 (UTC)
Delete. An obituary in a major newspaper does not automatically confer notability -- it may be presumed, but if nothing else actually turns up providing SIGCOV then it fails the requirement for multiple such sources. Moreover, the obituary in question does not have a byline (I have Gale access through my library) so its independence is not clear. JoelleJay ( talk) 19:44, 3 July 2021 (UTC)
Keepper sources dug up using her titled name. JoelleJay ( talk) 01:21, 6 July 2021 (UTC)
- Comment. Striking my keep !vote since I haven't been able to turn up any other SIGCOV yet... JoelleJay ( talk) 20:04, 7 July 2021 (UTC)
- Keep The Independent
featured as "visit the life of a notable figure. This week: Caroline Beaufort." There’s enough coverage to pass WP:SIGCOV. Generally being a member of the royalty, even minor royalty, makes you notable by birth as evidenced by the sources.
VocalIndia (
talk)
14:22, 4 July 2021 (UTC)
- VocalIndia, a) one article with SIGCOV is not enough to pass GNG; and b) that article is about Caroline Beaufort, not Mary Somerset. JoelleJay ( talk) 17:26, 4 July 2021 (UTC)
- Comment Here's a link to a British Newspaper Archive search for the "Duchess of Beaufort" in the 1930s https://www.britishnewspaperarchive.co.uk/search/results/1930-01-01/1939-12-31?basicsearch=%22duchess%20of%20beaufort%22%20-dowager&phrasesearch=duchess%20of%20beaufort¬search=dowager&exactsearch=false&retrievecountrycounts=false Piecesofuk ( talk) 18:26, 4 July 2021 (UTC)
- Hmm, that does indicate a lot more coverage than what's in the article. Perhaps "Mary Somerset" just isn't used in the media so it didn't turn up more articles. I will reassess after looking through the newspaper hits. JoelleJay ( talk) 22:04, 4 July 2021 (UTC)
- Wow, the BNA seems like a great resource. I don't have access, but by scanning the excerpts it looks like while most of the mentions are WP:ROTM (openings, benefits, meetings with the Queen and the like, but don't miss the exciting encounter with a riderless horse), several are more in depth. Here's the biosketch provided by one of the more promising of the articles:
The Duchess of Beaufort who, with the Duke, is staying with the King and Queen at Sandringham, is rarely seen in London, preferring a quiet country life at Badminton amongst her horses, dogs, and flowers, and taking personal interest in the rearing of poultry. “Master and Mary,” as the Duke and Duchess are affectionately known to the members of the Beaufort Hunt, are great home lovers, fond of sport and all outdoor life, not very interested in the rush of social gaieties, averse to publicity and having their photographs taken. Occasionally they visit their property in South Wales, traveling usually by train, which stops to pick them up and put them down at Badminton, and merely reserving their compartment. The Duchess, a niece of the Queen mother, dislikes fuss of any kind, and, when visiting South Wales to open a bazaar or perform some other duty for charity, she prefers to take family lunch or tea in a quiet little house staffed with one maid rather to be feted in a mansion and waited upon by butler and footmen.
— Bylined as "from a woman correspondent", "Duchess of Beaufort", https://www.britishnewspaperarchive.co.uk/viewer/bl/0000038/19370127/135/0005 (Belfast News-Letter - 27 January 1937)- Not much to go on, but certainly a reasonable little bio if more can be found like it. Suriname0 ( talk) 16:40, 5 July 2021 (UTC)
- Keep per those above, obituary in The Times and other sources (some I have added and am searching for me) which establish WP:SIGCOV. Note for other searching: "Mary Somerset" will not have much about this individual as British duchesses are seldom if ever, referred to merely by the family name. As shown by searching the BNA, media mentions of "Princess Mary of Teck" "Lady Mary Cambridge" and "The Duchess of Beaufort" from the times she held those titles will show more. Richiepip ( talk) 21:58, 5 July 2021 (UTC)
- Thanks Richiepip, the article looks a lot better. However, I'm still concerned about significant coverage: an independent source that goes into detail about Mary. I'm having an immense amount of difficulty finding sustained discussion of her life and actions, and not just passing mentions (e.g. [1]). Since it seems you may have access, do any of the book sources you added have more significant coverage? There may be other sources such as [2] that may have sustained coverage, but I personally don't have access to them. It seems like the most likely sources to have SIGCOV would be a section in one of the books on Queen Elizabeth e.g. Young Elizabeth (Williams), but I can't personally verify that. Suriname0 ( talk) 00:47, 6 July 2021 (UTC)
- Keep. An obituary in The Times alone is sufficient for notability. --
Necrothesp (
talk)
10:25, 7 July 2021 (UTC)
-
Necrothesp, just a note -- it is not sufficient, there is still the MULTIPLE requirement (which she does seem to meet).
JoelleJay (
talk)
16:46, 7 July 2021 (UTC)
- Sorry, but this is not true. An obituary in a major national newspaper has always been held to be sufficient for notability at AfD. I don't recall ever seeing anyone with such an obit deleted. There is a very clear consensus, and Wikipedia runs on consensus. -- Necrothesp ( talk) 09:16, 8 July 2021 (UTC)
-
Necrothesp, just a note -- it is not sufficient, there is still the MULTIPLE requirement (which she does seem to meet).
JoelleJay (
talk)
16:46, 7 July 2021 (UTC)
- Comment. I searched "Duchess of Beaufort" from 1924 to 1975 in the British Periodicals archive (using ProQuest, which I access through my university), and there are indeed many hits, although they are all non-SIGCOV and routine (non-encyclopedic). The deepest coverage was some anecdotes in a short, un-bylined obit in The Field vol. 269, Iss. 6990, Aug 1987: 60. I'm withdrawing my keep !vote now since I share Suriname0's concern about the lack of SIGCOV. JoelleJay ( talk) 20:04, 7 July 2021 (UTC)
- Yeah I mean to be honest I'm glad we seem to be keeping the article, since I am almost positive that the detailed coverage exists, most likely in some dense biography of Queen Mary or Elizabeth. She regularly corresponded with the Queen, and lived with her during WWII! Just a shame its so hard to uncover relevant sourcing for her. Suriname0 ( talk) 03:37, 8 July 2021 (UTC)
- Keep - based on the sources already in the bio, she was notable. Bearian ( talk) 00:39, 8 July 2021 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was keep. Consensus is that the topic may not have done or accomplished anything notable, but that the topic is notable per available sources (GNG) 78.26 ( spin me / revolutions) 16:39, 8 July 2021 (UTC)
Mary Somerset, Duchess of Beaufort
[Hide this box] New to Articles for deletion (AfD)? Read these primers!
- Mary Somerset, Duchess of Beaufort ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log)
- (Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
If this person did anything that makes her pass WP:GNG, i.e. anything but be related to some people, then I do not see it in the article or in the publications that mention her. To me this looks like a genealogical entry. Surtsicna ( talk) 18:17, 30 June 2021 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of People-related deletion discussions. Surtsicna ( talk) 18:17, 30 June 2021 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Women-related deletion discussions. Surtsicna ( talk) 18:17, 30 June 2021 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of United Kingdom-related deletion discussions. Surtsicna ( talk) 18:17, 30 June 2021 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of England-related deletion discussions. Surtsicna ( talk) 18:17, 30 June 2021 (UTC)
- Delete. <sarcasm>OK, but she was bridesmaid at the wedding of Prince Albert, Duke of York. How much more notability would you want?</sarcasm> Athel cb ( talk) 18:37, 30 June 2021 (UTC)
Keep A quick search reveals tons of secondary source coverage. In particular, two academic articles about her plant cultivation habits: [1], [2]. Suriname0 ( talk) 14:09, 1 July 2021 (UTC)
- Oops, there are two Mary Somersets who were both Duchess of Beaufort. Suriname0 ( talk) 14:13, 1 July 2021 (UTC)
- Keep notable: obituary published in The Times Piecesofuk ( talk) 16:35, 1 July 2021 (UTC)
- Keep. I can't find a copy of her obituary on-line, but assuming it was by-lined, I believe that unpaid obituaries in prestigious newspapers are de facto evidence of notability. I'm also surprised that we don't have a page about her daughter-in-law, Caroline Beaufort, another notable noble. [1] pburka ( talk) 23:32, 1 July 2021 (UTC)
Delete. An obituary in a major newspaper does not automatically confer notability -- it may be presumed, but if nothing else actually turns up providing SIGCOV then it fails the requirement for multiple such sources. Moreover, the obituary in question does not have a byline (I have Gale access through my library) so its independence is not clear. JoelleJay ( talk) 19:44, 3 July 2021 (UTC)
Keepper sources dug up using her titled name. JoelleJay ( talk) 01:21, 6 July 2021 (UTC)
- Comment. Striking my keep !vote since I haven't been able to turn up any other SIGCOV yet... JoelleJay ( talk) 20:04, 7 July 2021 (UTC)
- Keep The Independent
featured as "visit the life of a notable figure. This week: Caroline Beaufort." There’s enough coverage to pass WP:SIGCOV. Generally being a member of the royalty, even minor royalty, makes you notable by birth as evidenced by the sources.
VocalIndia (
talk)
14:22, 4 July 2021 (UTC)
- VocalIndia, a) one article with SIGCOV is not enough to pass GNG; and b) that article is about Caroline Beaufort, not Mary Somerset. JoelleJay ( talk) 17:26, 4 July 2021 (UTC)
- Comment Here's a link to a British Newspaper Archive search for the "Duchess of Beaufort" in the 1930s https://www.britishnewspaperarchive.co.uk/search/results/1930-01-01/1939-12-31?basicsearch=%22duchess%20of%20beaufort%22%20-dowager&phrasesearch=duchess%20of%20beaufort¬search=dowager&exactsearch=false&retrievecountrycounts=false Piecesofuk ( talk) 18:26, 4 July 2021 (UTC)
- Hmm, that does indicate a lot more coverage than what's in the article. Perhaps "Mary Somerset" just isn't used in the media so it didn't turn up more articles. I will reassess after looking through the newspaper hits. JoelleJay ( talk) 22:04, 4 July 2021 (UTC)
- Wow, the BNA seems like a great resource. I don't have access, but by scanning the excerpts it looks like while most of the mentions are WP:ROTM (openings, benefits, meetings with the Queen and the like, but don't miss the exciting encounter with a riderless horse), several are more in depth. Here's the biosketch provided by one of the more promising of the articles:
The Duchess of Beaufort who, with the Duke, is staying with the King and Queen at Sandringham, is rarely seen in London, preferring a quiet country life at Badminton amongst her horses, dogs, and flowers, and taking personal interest in the rearing of poultry. “Master and Mary,” as the Duke and Duchess are affectionately known to the members of the Beaufort Hunt, are great home lovers, fond of sport and all outdoor life, not very interested in the rush of social gaieties, averse to publicity and having their photographs taken. Occasionally they visit their property in South Wales, traveling usually by train, which stops to pick them up and put them down at Badminton, and merely reserving their compartment. The Duchess, a niece of the Queen mother, dislikes fuss of any kind, and, when visiting South Wales to open a bazaar or perform some other duty for charity, she prefers to take family lunch or tea in a quiet little house staffed with one maid rather to be feted in a mansion and waited upon by butler and footmen.
— Bylined as "from a woman correspondent", "Duchess of Beaufort", https://www.britishnewspaperarchive.co.uk/viewer/bl/0000038/19370127/135/0005 (Belfast News-Letter - 27 January 1937)- Not much to go on, but certainly a reasonable little bio if more can be found like it. Suriname0 ( talk) 16:40, 5 July 2021 (UTC)
- Keep per those above, obituary in The Times and other sources (some I have added and am searching for me) which establish WP:SIGCOV. Note for other searching: "Mary Somerset" will not have much about this individual as British duchesses are seldom if ever, referred to merely by the family name. As shown by searching the BNA, media mentions of "Princess Mary of Teck" "Lady Mary Cambridge" and "The Duchess of Beaufort" from the times she held those titles will show more. Richiepip ( talk) 21:58, 5 July 2021 (UTC)
- Thanks Richiepip, the article looks a lot better. However, I'm still concerned about significant coverage: an independent source that goes into detail about Mary. I'm having an immense amount of difficulty finding sustained discussion of her life and actions, and not just passing mentions (e.g. [1]). Since it seems you may have access, do any of the book sources you added have more significant coverage? There may be other sources such as [2] that may have sustained coverage, but I personally don't have access to them. It seems like the most likely sources to have SIGCOV would be a section in one of the books on Queen Elizabeth e.g. Young Elizabeth (Williams), but I can't personally verify that. Suriname0 ( talk) 00:47, 6 July 2021 (UTC)
- Keep. An obituary in The Times alone is sufficient for notability. --
Necrothesp (
talk)
10:25, 7 July 2021 (UTC)
-
Necrothesp, just a note -- it is not sufficient, there is still the MULTIPLE requirement (which she does seem to meet).
JoelleJay (
talk)
16:46, 7 July 2021 (UTC)
- Sorry, but this is not true. An obituary in a major national newspaper has always been held to be sufficient for notability at AfD. I don't recall ever seeing anyone with such an obit deleted. There is a very clear consensus, and Wikipedia runs on consensus. -- Necrothesp ( talk) 09:16, 8 July 2021 (UTC)
-
Necrothesp, just a note -- it is not sufficient, there is still the MULTIPLE requirement (which she does seem to meet).
JoelleJay (
talk)
16:46, 7 July 2021 (UTC)
- Comment. I searched "Duchess of Beaufort" from 1924 to 1975 in the British Periodicals archive (using ProQuest, which I access through my university), and there are indeed many hits, although they are all non-SIGCOV and routine (non-encyclopedic). The deepest coverage was some anecdotes in a short, un-bylined obit in The Field vol. 269, Iss. 6990, Aug 1987: 60. I'm withdrawing my keep !vote now since I share Suriname0's concern about the lack of SIGCOV. JoelleJay ( talk) 20:04, 7 July 2021 (UTC)
- Yeah I mean to be honest I'm glad we seem to be keeping the article, since I am almost positive that the detailed coverage exists, most likely in some dense biography of Queen Mary or Elizabeth. She regularly corresponded with the Queen, and lived with her during WWII! Just a shame its so hard to uncover relevant sourcing for her. Suriname0 ( talk) 03:37, 8 July 2021 (UTC)
- Keep - based on the sources already in the bio, she was notable. Bearian ( talk) 00:39, 8 July 2021 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.