- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was no consensus. Although this looks like an obvious Keep I have discarded all the comments that do not address policy. Black Kite (talk) 10:31, 10 October 2014 (UTC)
Marooned (band)
- Marooned (band) ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log · Stats)
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This is a musical group that lacks significant coverage in independent reliable sources to establish notability. Whpq ( talk) 20:28, 13 September 2014 (UTC)
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- Keep- the Renaissance Faire community is a smaller one, but it's certainly larger than many other recognized communities, and it's been around a long time, too. The members of Marooned have been active participants in the community for many years and are well known. They are valuable contributors to keeping folk music in general (and pirate music in specific) a living, growing musical genre. Their contributions to historical and charitable projects alone would qualify them for inclusion in any reference work. - Juli McCarthy — Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.53.202.29 ( talk) 22:04, 16 September 2014 (UTC)
- Keep-This musical group has received several awards within its community and has been performing since 1995. While Renaissance Festivals are a niche market, I'd argue against their being deleted simply because they are part of a niche. They have been reviewed within the Pirate community (Bilgemunkey Pirate Radio, Celtic MP3s Magazine, Renaissance Festival Music Podcast - All of which are notable members of the festival community) and won awards via the Renaissance Festival Music Podcast's annual "Renaissance Festival Awards", which certainly makes them notable within that community.
Ceronomus (
talk) 20:57, 13 September 2014 (UTC)
- Comment - I see you've added 19 references since the nomination. However, I don't see that any of those references, nor any of the ones present in the article at the time pof nomination qualigy as reliable sources for establishing notability. -- Whpq ( talk) 18:01, 16 September 2014 (UTC)
- Comment - Bilgemunkey Pirate Radio was, at the time it aired, the #1 source for all things relating to Pirate Music. While the show is now off the "air" it still has a solid following. I'd say that is notable. The Renaissance Festival Awards from the Renaissance Festival Music Podcast (which include the Renaissance Faire Hall of Fame awards) are followed by every major player in the Renaissance Faire community (and the major faires, such as Southern CA, Bristol, and New York are certainly quick to mention their wins and to acknowledge them with pre-recorded statements) and have since been picked up in annual print by Renaissance Magazine. Again, this is something that is certainly notable within this market. That you choose to ignore sources notable in the genre doesn't make them non-notable, it just means that you are disregarding them. Indeed, within the Renaissance Faire community the only "notable" sources are the Renaissance Festival Music Podcast, Renaissance Magazine and, to a lesser degree, RenFaire magazine. The Pirate Music and reenactment communities sources of note are No Quarter Given magazine, Mutiny magazine, Pirates Way magazine, Pirate magazine, and Bilgemunkey. That you refuse to recognize these sources reflects more on your lack of knowledge in these particular scenes than the notability of the sources. You choose to disregard the most notable awards in the Ren Faire music category as notable so... I don't know as anything will change your mind. Ceronomus ( talk) 18:47, 16 September 2014 (UTC)
- Note: This debate has been included in the list of Bands and .musicians-related deletion discussions. Jinkinson talk to me 21:18, 13 September 2014 (UTC)
- Note: This debate has been included in the list of United States of America-related deletion discussions. — Ascii002 Talk Contribs GuestBook 01:45, 14 September 2014 (UTC)
- Keep - It's notable. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bdboyc ( talk • contribs) 13:47, 14 September 2014 (UTC)
- Comment @ Wgolf and Bdboyc: Simply declaring theyre' notable is not helpful. Please explain how they are notable with evidence to support your position. -- Whpq ( talk) 18:01, 16 September 2014 (UTC)
- Keep - I'm actually a fan of this genre and the fact that they are part of at least 10 recordings is not insignificant in this field. I think multiple awards and press releases are relatable links for notability. Caffiendcc ( talk) 19:49, 16 September 2014 (UTC)
- Keep- This group has been a defining influence both in the history of the national Renaissance Faire circuit musicians, as well as many Fandom and Gaming related conventions. They've contributed thousands of dollars in donations to multiple charities, as well as hundreds of hours of their time both towards performance and the conservation of the music created and performed by folk artists from all over the entire country. They have existed as a group for almost twenty years, and have friends and followers all over the world. This is by definition notable. DO NOT DELETE THIS ARTICLE. Cavalaxis ( talk) 04:08, 17 September 2014 (UTC)
- Keep - I have watched this group perform in venues across the united states including but not limited to Ren fairs and conventions. This combined with their work on multiple charity albums with a variety of notable artists places them in a noteworthy category. While the Ren community,pirate based community and gamer communities are all specialized, the fact that this group has been seen by thousands of people attending events for these communities should not be ignored. To do so insinuates that the communities themselves have a lesser value because of the focused nature of the fandom. I believe the draw of Wikipedia is that it is a source of information for the public, by the public.please do not invalidate the very mission of Wikipedia by make a value judgment on what subcultures are not worth representing. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Billhatfield42 ( talk • contribs) 04:12, 17 September 2014 (UTC)
- Comment - This article can't link to oral history or paper history (Ren Faire and Con programmes and flyers), which are just as valuable a source as any online news article or website. Twenty years of history and contribution is notable. Cavalaxis ( talk) 04:17, 17 September 2014 (UTC)
- Keep This group has albums available on Amazon and ITunes. They have performed in many environments including renaissance faires on both coasts, a promotional event for A&E, and every year for around 9 years for GenCon (the biggest gaming scifi/fantasy convention in the US I believe - though a couple of those years were at the smaller offshoot GenCon SoCal). They have been around since 95. One of the members held a significant position (artistic director I think) at the Bristol Renaissance Faire for multiple years. Another member has many audiobook and other voice over jobs under her belt. They are referenced in a book of sea shanties for one of their versions of a popular song. They helped to create a series of CDs of pirate music that donates all proceeds to New Orleans schools to buy musical instruments for the kids to learn with (in the wake of Katrina). They were approached by the creators of the role playing game system Sixcess to create a soundtrack for one of their settings - that is their newest cd, released in August of this year. Two of their members also created Modern Bard to collect and preserve renaissance faire music in all formats and from all performers possible. This is a group who is both constantly creating And constantly giving back to the music world. — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
Mhoraigh (
talk •
contribs) 07:04, 17 September 2014 (UTC)
- Comment - Dug through my songbook collection and found the book you are referring to. Citation added to the Mel Bay publication.
- Comment - http://www.noquartergiven.net/ae_sd.htm An article mentioning Marooned's performance at the A&E Horatio Hornblower event. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mhoraigh ( talk • contribs) 08:31, 18 September 2014 (UTC)
- Keep I believe the band Marooned meets the criteria for notability based on the previously cited references to contributions to the Renaissance and gaming genres in this discussion, and that the Wikipedia page should be kept. Marooned has been has been performing as a group at Renaissance Festivals since 1995 and has been an official performer at GenCon for over a decade. This years' GenCon attendance was a record unique attendance of 56,614, [1], and featured artists are exposed to a significant number of those attendees during scheduled performance times. Additional third party sources covering or supporting the notability of the band Marooned: [2] - GenCon article identifying Marooned as a featured GenCon performer for 11 years. [3] - interview with Marooned by Indie Nation (indienation.fm). Marc.a.bruner ( talk) 16:21, 17 September 2014 (UTC)
- Keep I have seen this group at multiple conventions and other venues for a very long time. They are extremely recognizable and sought out for their long history and depth of their work. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tmessnet ( talk • contribs) 19:55, 18 September 2014 (UTC)
- Keep I loved hearing their music on Bilgemunkey radio.. This Band is relevant to the Pirate Community ! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.176.125.170 ( talk) 23:42, 18 September 2014 (UTC)
Keep – Properly evaluating the grounds this deletion request is based upon requires a review of Wikipedia’s standards regarding use of primary sources and notability guidelines for music, and then applying a test of reasonability. Maintaining standards is crucial for Wikipedia to sustain credibility and continue to be a primary source of information beneficial to all users. However, we must guard against an overzealous application of those standards which results in the deletion of articles that demonstrate comparable values through the use of subculture resources. The article in question provides over 30 references; the majority of these references are acceptable if we apply genre-specific values for recognizing reliable sources. For example, “Renaissance Festival Podcast”, sponsored in part by “Renaissance Magazine”, founded in 2005, offers bimonthly podcasts of notable music and entertainment from Renaissance festivals in the U.S. and is currently compiling data for the 10th Annual Renaissance Festival Awards, which Marooned has received twice. Or we can look at “Bilgemunky Radio”, a respected source of information, which produced over 200 episodes in 5 years, and reviewed multiple album releases by Marooned. While these sources may not be comparable in size and prominence to “Rolling Stone Magazine” podcasts to the general public, they are well known in the community comprised of members devoted to Renaissance festivals, Irish folk music, sea shanties and a cappella groups. Credit should be given to this article for being the subject of multiple, non-trivial, published works as well as for placing in a major music competition. Marooned has played multiple venues across the United States, including nine years at GenCon, one of the largest gaming conventions in North America, which reported over 56,600 unique attendees this year. Again, the venue may not be comparable to the New York Philharmonic concert hall, but considering the record for highest attended indoor concert in U.S. history was set this summer (by George Strait at the Dallas Cowboy stadium) with an attendance of only double that number, it would seem that credit should be given for meeting this standard as well. By utilizing reasonable, comparable standards for this genre, Marooned would be considered notable by meeting more than one of the listed criteria. LVShadyLady ( talk) 01:37, 20 September 2014 (UTC)
Keep - Marooned is a notable pirate/renaissance faire band with a prolonged history, established and regular release schedule (11 albums in 11 years, as of 2014) and were one of the first performers to be retained by Gencon to entertain convention attendees. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.53.238.246 ( talk) 14:07, 20 September 2014 (UTC)
-
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.
- Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Spartaz Humbug! 17:01, 23 September 2014 (UTC)
- Note: This debate has been included in the list of Nevada-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k ( talk) 21:14, 23 September 2014 (UTC)
- Comment - They have won two national awards in their field, have been cited in a book published by Mel Bay, they have been interviewed by IndieNation, have been covered by the Renaissance Festival Music Podcast (sponsored in part by Renaissance Magazine) as well as a number of others (Bilgemunkey Pirate Radio, RenRadio, CelticMP3s Magazine, Celtic Geek Podcast) and even have had coverage from the Indianapolis Star. They have performed at a major event (40k+ people) for eleven years. I think LVShadyLady above sums it up fairly well. Ceronomus ( talk) 21:24, 23 September 2014 (UTC)
- Delete. A bunch of minor mention mostly as part of promotional material is not significant coverage in independent reliable sources. The awards are not major. duffbeerforme ( talk) 14:37, 26 September 2014 (UTC)
- Comment - Even if one disregards the national awards in their field (which is an inclusive factor for notability, not an exclusive one), I don't see a whole lot of "promotional material" being cited here in this conversation as grounds for notability. As mentioned above, there is plenty of independent, reliable, coverage. Ceronomus ( talk) 19:51, 26 September 2014 (UTC)
-
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.
- Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Jim Carter (from public cyber) 07:02, 1 October 2014 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was no consensus. Although this looks like an obvious Keep I have discarded all the comments that do not address policy. Black Kite (talk) 10:31, 10 October 2014 (UTC)
Marooned (band)
- Marooned (band) ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log · Stats)
- (Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
This is a musical group that lacks significant coverage in independent reliable sources to establish notability. Whpq ( talk) 20:28, 13 September 2014 (UTC)
|
| If you came here because someone asked you to, or you read a message on another website, please note that this is
not a majority vote, but instead a discussion among Wikipedia contributors. Wikipedia has
policies and guidelines regarding the encyclopedia's content, and
consensus (agreement) is gauged based on the merits of the arguments, not by counting votes.
However, you are invited to participate and your opinion is welcome. Remember to assume good faith on the part of others and to sign your posts on this page by adding ~~~~ at the end. Note: Comments may be tagged as follows: suspected single-purpose accounts:{{subst:
spa|username}}; suspected
canvassed users: {{subst:
canvassed|username}}; accounts blocked for
sockpuppetry: {{subst:
csm|username}} or {{subst:
csp|username}}. |
- Keep- the Renaissance Faire community is a smaller one, but it's certainly larger than many other recognized communities, and it's been around a long time, too. The members of Marooned have been active participants in the community for many years and are well known. They are valuable contributors to keeping folk music in general (and pirate music in specific) a living, growing musical genre. Their contributions to historical and charitable projects alone would qualify them for inclusion in any reference work. - Juli McCarthy — Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.53.202.29 ( talk) 22:04, 16 September 2014 (UTC)
- Keep-This musical group has received several awards within its community and has been performing since 1995. While Renaissance Festivals are a niche market, I'd argue against their being deleted simply because they are part of a niche. They have been reviewed within the Pirate community (Bilgemunkey Pirate Radio, Celtic MP3s Magazine, Renaissance Festival Music Podcast - All of which are notable members of the festival community) and won awards via the Renaissance Festival Music Podcast's annual "Renaissance Festival Awards", which certainly makes them notable within that community.
Ceronomus (
talk) 20:57, 13 September 2014 (UTC)
- Comment - I see you've added 19 references since the nomination. However, I don't see that any of those references, nor any of the ones present in the article at the time pof nomination qualigy as reliable sources for establishing notability. -- Whpq ( talk) 18:01, 16 September 2014 (UTC)
- Comment - Bilgemunkey Pirate Radio was, at the time it aired, the #1 source for all things relating to Pirate Music. While the show is now off the "air" it still has a solid following. I'd say that is notable. The Renaissance Festival Awards from the Renaissance Festival Music Podcast (which include the Renaissance Faire Hall of Fame awards) are followed by every major player in the Renaissance Faire community (and the major faires, such as Southern CA, Bristol, and New York are certainly quick to mention their wins and to acknowledge them with pre-recorded statements) and have since been picked up in annual print by Renaissance Magazine. Again, this is something that is certainly notable within this market. That you choose to ignore sources notable in the genre doesn't make them non-notable, it just means that you are disregarding them. Indeed, within the Renaissance Faire community the only "notable" sources are the Renaissance Festival Music Podcast, Renaissance Magazine and, to a lesser degree, RenFaire magazine. The Pirate Music and reenactment communities sources of note are No Quarter Given magazine, Mutiny magazine, Pirates Way magazine, Pirate magazine, and Bilgemunkey. That you refuse to recognize these sources reflects more on your lack of knowledge in these particular scenes than the notability of the sources. You choose to disregard the most notable awards in the Ren Faire music category as notable so... I don't know as anything will change your mind. Ceronomus ( talk) 18:47, 16 September 2014 (UTC)
- Note: This debate has been included in the list of Bands and .musicians-related deletion discussions. Jinkinson talk to me 21:18, 13 September 2014 (UTC)
- Note: This debate has been included in the list of United States of America-related deletion discussions. — Ascii002 Talk Contribs GuestBook 01:45, 14 September 2014 (UTC)
- Keep - It's notable. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bdboyc ( talk • contribs) 13:47, 14 September 2014 (UTC)
- Comment @ Wgolf and Bdboyc: Simply declaring theyre' notable is not helpful. Please explain how they are notable with evidence to support your position. -- Whpq ( talk) 18:01, 16 September 2014 (UTC)
- Keep - I'm actually a fan of this genre and the fact that they are part of at least 10 recordings is not insignificant in this field. I think multiple awards and press releases are relatable links for notability. Caffiendcc ( talk) 19:49, 16 September 2014 (UTC)
- Keep- This group has been a defining influence both in the history of the national Renaissance Faire circuit musicians, as well as many Fandom and Gaming related conventions. They've contributed thousands of dollars in donations to multiple charities, as well as hundreds of hours of their time both towards performance and the conservation of the music created and performed by folk artists from all over the entire country. They have existed as a group for almost twenty years, and have friends and followers all over the world. This is by definition notable. DO NOT DELETE THIS ARTICLE. Cavalaxis ( talk) 04:08, 17 September 2014 (UTC)
- Keep - I have watched this group perform in venues across the united states including but not limited to Ren fairs and conventions. This combined with their work on multiple charity albums with a variety of notable artists places them in a noteworthy category. While the Ren community,pirate based community and gamer communities are all specialized, the fact that this group has been seen by thousands of people attending events for these communities should not be ignored. To do so insinuates that the communities themselves have a lesser value because of the focused nature of the fandom. I believe the draw of Wikipedia is that it is a source of information for the public, by the public.please do not invalidate the very mission of Wikipedia by make a value judgment on what subcultures are not worth representing. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Billhatfield42 ( talk • contribs) 04:12, 17 September 2014 (UTC)
- Comment - This article can't link to oral history or paper history (Ren Faire and Con programmes and flyers), which are just as valuable a source as any online news article or website. Twenty years of history and contribution is notable. Cavalaxis ( talk) 04:17, 17 September 2014 (UTC)
- Keep This group has albums available on Amazon and ITunes. They have performed in many environments including renaissance faires on both coasts, a promotional event for A&E, and every year for around 9 years for GenCon (the biggest gaming scifi/fantasy convention in the US I believe - though a couple of those years were at the smaller offshoot GenCon SoCal). They have been around since 95. One of the members held a significant position (artistic director I think) at the Bristol Renaissance Faire for multiple years. Another member has many audiobook and other voice over jobs under her belt. They are referenced in a book of sea shanties for one of their versions of a popular song. They helped to create a series of CDs of pirate music that donates all proceeds to New Orleans schools to buy musical instruments for the kids to learn with (in the wake of Katrina). They were approached by the creators of the role playing game system Sixcess to create a soundtrack for one of their settings - that is their newest cd, released in August of this year. Two of their members also created Modern Bard to collect and preserve renaissance faire music in all formats and from all performers possible. This is a group who is both constantly creating And constantly giving back to the music world. — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
Mhoraigh (
talk •
contribs) 07:04, 17 September 2014 (UTC)
- Comment - Dug through my songbook collection and found the book you are referring to. Citation added to the Mel Bay publication.
- Comment - http://www.noquartergiven.net/ae_sd.htm An article mentioning Marooned's performance at the A&E Horatio Hornblower event. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mhoraigh ( talk • contribs) 08:31, 18 September 2014 (UTC)
- Keep I believe the band Marooned meets the criteria for notability based on the previously cited references to contributions to the Renaissance and gaming genres in this discussion, and that the Wikipedia page should be kept. Marooned has been has been performing as a group at Renaissance Festivals since 1995 and has been an official performer at GenCon for over a decade. This years' GenCon attendance was a record unique attendance of 56,614, [1], and featured artists are exposed to a significant number of those attendees during scheduled performance times. Additional third party sources covering or supporting the notability of the band Marooned: [2] - GenCon article identifying Marooned as a featured GenCon performer for 11 years. [3] - interview with Marooned by Indie Nation (indienation.fm). Marc.a.bruner ( talk) 16:21, 17 September 2014 (UTC)
- Keep I have seen this group at multiple conventions and other venues for a very long time. They are extremely recognizable and sought out for their long history and depth of their work. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tmessnet ( talk • contribs) 19:55, 18 September 2014 (UTC)
- Keep I loved hearing their music on Bilgemunkey radio.. This Band is relevant to the Pirate Community ! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.176.125.170 ( talk) 23:42, 18 September 2014 (UTC)
Keep – Properly evaluating the grounds this deletion request is based upon requires a review of Wikipedia’s standards regarding use of primary sources and notability guidelines for music, and then applying a test of reasonability. Maintaining standards is crucial for Wikipedia to sustain credibility and continue to be a primary source of information beneficial to all users. However, we must guard against an overzealous application of those standards which results in the deletion of articles that demonstrate comparable values through the use of subculture resources. The article in question provides over 30 references; the majority of these references are acceptable if we apply genre-specific values for recognizing reliable sources. For example, “Renaissance Festival Podcast”, sponsored in part by “Renaissance Magazine”, founded in 2005, offers bimonthly podcasts of notable music and entertainment from Renaissance festivals in the U.S. and is currently compiling data for the 10th Annual Renaissance Festival Awards, which Marooned has received twice. Or we can look at “Bilgemunky Radio”, a respected source of information, which produced over 200 episodes in 5 years, and reviewed multiple album releases by Marooned. While these sources may not be comparable in size and prominence to “Rolling Stone Magazine” podcasts to the general public, they are well known in the community comprised of members devoted to Renaissance festivals, Irish folk music, sea shanties and a cappella groups. Credit should be given to this article for being the subject of multiple, non-trivial, published works as well as for placing in a major music competition. Marooned has played multiple venues across the United States, including nine years at GenCon, one of the largest gaming conventions in North America, which reported over 56,600 unique attendees this year. Again, the venue may not be comparable to the New York Philharmonic concert hall, but considering the record for highest attended indoor concert in U.S. history was set this summer (by George Strait at the Dallas Cowboy stadium) with an attendance of only double that number, it would seem that credit should be given for meeting this standard as well. By utilizing reasonable, comparable standards for this genre, Marooned would be considered notable by meeting more than one of the listed criteria. LVShadyLady ( talk) 01:37, 20 September 2014 (UTC)
Keep - Marooned is a notable pirate/renaissance faire band with a prolonged history, established and regular release schedule (11 albums in 11 years, as of 2014) and were one of the first performers to be retained by Gencon to entertain convention attendees. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.53.238.246 ( talk) 14:07, 20 September 2014 (UTC)
-
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.
- Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Spartaz Humbug! 17:01, 23 September 2014 (UTC)
- Note: This debate has been included in the list of Nevada-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k ( talk) 21:14, 23 September 2014 (UTC)
- Comment - They have won two national awards in their field, have been cited in a book published by Mel Bay, they have been interviewed by IndieNation, have been covered by the Renaissance Festival Music Podcast (sponsored in part by Renaissance Magazine) as well as a number of others (Bilgemunkey Pirate Radio, RenRadio, CelticMP3s Magazine, Celtic Geek Podcast) and even have had coverage from the Indianapolis Star. They have performed at a major event (40k+ people) for eleven years. I think LVShadyLady above sums it up fairly well. Ceronomus ( talk) 21:24, 23 September 2014 (UTC)
- Delete. A bunch of minor mention mostly as part of promotional material is not significant coverage in independent reliable sources. The awards are not major. duffbeerforme ( talk) 14:37, 26 September 2014 (UTC)
- Comment - Even if one disregards the national awards in their field (which is an inclusive factor for notability, not an exclusive one), I don't see a whole lot of "promotional material" being cited here in this conversation as grounds for notability. As mentioned above, there is plenty of independent, reliable, coverage. Ceronomus ( talk) 19:51, 26 September 2014 (UTC)
-
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.
- Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Jim Carter (from public cyber) 07:02, 1 October 2014 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.