- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was delete. Liz Read! Talk! 23:17, 6 August 2023 (UTC)
Lists of Celts
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- Lists of Celts ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log | edits since nomination)
- (Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
WP:UNSOURCED WP:OR/ WP:SYNTH WP:CROSSCAT between language family – Celtic languages – and a couple of hand-picked lists of nationalities and ethnicities which are overgeneralised to be all "Celtic", but that just isn't correct. Most of these people will speak English (a Germanic language) in they daily lives, or French (a Romance language) in the Bretons' case. (Well, not all of them. One tiny village... or one great song...).
The very opening sentence is riddled with issues: This is a collection of lists of Celts who tend to be most associated with a modern Celtic identity. "who tend to be most associated with" is just an opinion. If this were a category, it would be deleted per WP:ARBITRARYCAT WP:OPINIONCAT WP:ASSOCIATEDWITH. In modern times, identifying as a "Celt" or "Celtic" is up to individuals. It is not up to Wikipedia to categorise all inhabitants of modern countries or regions as "Celts/Celtic" by default just because they "tend to be associated" with modern Celtic identity.
We just can't mix up language family and nationality/ethnicity like this. See Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of Turkic dynasties and countries for a long list of precedents. Similar categories and lists involving "Germanic", "Celtic", "Slavic" and other language-family WP:CROSSCATs have already been deleted (most recently "Category:Celtic clans"). Cheers, Nederlandse Leeuw ( talk) 23:30, 30 July 2023 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Lists of people and Language. Nederlandse Leeuw ( talk) 23:30, 30 July 2023 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Ethnic groups, Ireland, Scotland, and Wales. Spiderone (Talk to Spider) 19:50, 31 July 2023 (UTC)
- 'Delete per nom and WP:ARBITRARYCAT. This reminds me of a discussion I had with an editor, some years ago, about applying unspoken/subjective/"in own head only" criteria to categorise otherwise random modern people into Category:Gaels. Notwithstanding that corollary, it seems bizarre (at best) to assume that all members of the List of Irish people or List of Welsh people or List of Scots (sub)lists are "celts". Arthur Wellesley, Laura Ashley and Khalid Abdalla are included in these respective (sub)lists. Are these people "celts"? By what measure? (Frankly think this "list of (less-than-related) lists" causes more problems than it solves, and that deleting it is probably for the best. Certainly I cannot conceive of an alternative use of the title. A redirect (to where?), DRAFTIFY (to what end?)...) Guliolopez ( talk) 20:16, 31 July 2023 (UTC)
- Delete Given complexity over celtic identity both modern (see The Atlantic Celts: Ancient People or Modern Invention?) and historic (maybe the person buried at Vix would have called herself a celt but we have no way of knowing) this isn't something we can really get into. ©Geni ( talk) 20:23, 31 July 2023 (UTC)
- Delete: I don't think the nature of the term Celt (as others have covered above), which is very much a modern back-projection, is inherently compatible with a list of this sort. UndercoverClassicist ( talk) 17:11, 2 August 2023 (UTC)
- Delete As currently defined, I don't think this is a useful list. If this was covering notable celtic figures from antiquity then maybe it would be viable, but this just is just a bad cross categorisation. Hemiauchenia ( talk) 20:44, 3 August 2023 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was delete. Liz Read! Talk! 23:17, 6 August 2023 (UTC)
Lists of Celts
[Hide this box] New to Articles for deletion (AfD)? Read these primers!
- Lists of Celts ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log | edits since nomination)
- (Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
WP:UNSOURCED WP:OR/ WP:SYNTH WP:CROSSCAT between language family – Celtic languages – and a couple of hand-picked lists of nationalities and ethnicities which are overgeneralised to be all "Celtic", but that just isn't correct. Most of these people will speak English (a Germanic language) in they daily lives, or French (a Romance language) in the Bretons' case. (Well, not all of them. One tiny village... or one great song...).
The very opening sentence is riddled with issues: This is a collection of lists of Celts who tend to be most associated with a modern Celtic identity. "who tend to be most associated with" is just an opinion. If this were a category, it would be deleted per WP:ARBITRARYCAT WP:OPINIONCAT WP:ASSOCIATEDWITH. In modern times, identifying as a "Celt" or "Celtic" is up to individuals. It is not up to Wikipedia to categorise all inhabitants of modern countries or regions as "Celts/Celtic" by default just because they "tend to be associated" with modern Celtic identity.
We just can't mix up language family and nationality/ethnicity like this. See Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of Turkic dynasties and countries for a long list of precedents. Similar categories and lists involving "Germanic", "Celtic", "Slavic" and other language-family WP:CROSSCATs have already been deleted (most recently "Category:Celtic clans"). Cheers, Nederlandse Leeuw ( talk) 23:30, 30 July 2023 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Lists of people and Language. Nederlandse Leeuw ( talk) 23:30, 30 July 2023 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Ethnic groups, Ireland, Scotland, and Wales. Spiderone (Talk to Spider) 19:50, 31 July 2023 (UTC)
- 'Delete per nom and WP:ARBITRARYCAT. This reminds me of a discussion I had with an editor, some years ago, about applying unspoken/subjective/"in own head only" criteria to categorise otherwise random modern people into Category:Gaels. Notwithstanding that corollary, it seems bizarre (at best) to assume that all members of the List of Irish people or List of Welsh people or List of Scots (sub)lists are "celts". Arthur Wellesley, Laura Ashley and Khalid Abdalla are included in these respective (sub)lists. Are these people "celts"? By what measure? (Frankly think this "list of (less-than-related) lists" causes more problems than it solves, and that deleting it is probably for the best. Certainly I cannot conceive of an alternative use of the title. A redirect (to where?), DRAFTIFY (to what end?)...) Guliolopez ( talk) 20:16, 31 July 2023 (UTC)
- Delete Given complexity over celtic identity both modern (see The Atlantic Celts: Ancient People or Modern Invention?) and historic (maybe the person buried at Vix would have called herself a celt but we have no way of knowing) this isn't something we can really get into. ©Geni ( talk) 20:23, 31 July 2023 (UTC)
- Delete: I don't think the nature of the term Celt (as others have covered above), which is very much a modern back-projection, is inherently compatible with a list of this sort. UndercoverClassicist ( talk) 17:11, 2 August 2023 (UTC)
- Delete As currently defined, I don't think this is a useful list. If this was covering notable celtic figures from antiquity then maybe it would be viable, but this just is just a bad cross categorisation. Hemiauchenia ( talk) 20:44, 3 August 2023 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.