- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was merge to place to be determined. I am at least average if not above average in my willingness to make a tough call. However after 38 days of discussion I cannot find a clear outcome here. There's a consensus this should not be a standalone article but not enough to delete. This defaults to a consensus to merge it but the opinion on the target for merge is divided between Jews in New York City and List of New York City parks. Someone can either BOLDLY merge into one of those places or can start a WP:MERGE discussion so watchers of those pages might weigh in on the suitability of that page for the merge or way in which a merge could be completed. Barkeep49 ( talk) 01:51, 31 March 2020 (UTC)
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- List of New York City parks relating to Jewish culture ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log · Stats)
- (Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
Wikipedia:No original research. No sources provided to show this is a notable subject. Loksmythe ( talk) 16:51, 21 February 2020 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Lists-related deletion discussions. Loksmythe ( talk) 16:51, 21 February 2020 (UTC)
Keep.Keep or merge with List of New York City parks or Jews in New York City. While I do agree that the sourcing needs to be improved, the NYC Parks citations do show a history of the parks' respective namesakes. Many of them clearly say that it was named for a Jewish subject. epicgenius ( talk) 17:03, 21 February 2020 (UTC)- I changed my vote. I do not think that this necessarily needs to be deleted, but maybe some of the contents can be merged. This has the potential to be improved, and I don't believe in throwing out articles unless there aren't any sources that show notability. In this case the subject is notable, but the sourcing just isn't there. epicgenius ( talk) 22:32, 21 February 2020 (UTC)
- Amended my vote for the record. epicgenius ( talk) 14:37, 3 March 2020 (UTC)
- Delete This is original research. I see no indication that really any of the parks "relate to Jewish culture" rather than are just named after people who were Jewish, which may be expected in a city with a significant Jewish population. The monuments and memorials that are more specifically about Jewish history are that: monuments and memorials, not parks (and I'm sure there's a number of these in the city outside of the parks too). I would encourage including them in Jews in New York City but this list is not the way to do it. There are so many parks in NYC and elsewhere named after a variety of people and we don't need lists for each intersection, especially short sources covering the topic as a whole. This likewise goes for List of New York City parks relating to Hispanic and Latino American culture and List of New York City parks relating to the Vietnam War, which are just namesakes. A better option would be making List of New York City parks into a table that includes that. Reywas92 Talk 18:26, 21 February 2020 (UTC)
CommentDelete or merge with Jews in New York City I think Reywas92 has the right response but I've been on Wikipedia too long, and seen too many "List of xyz"s to think that will actually happen. Perhaps rename to List of New York City parks named after Jewish People? Merely pointing to web pages on NYC parks doesn't support a relation with Jewish culture (which, by itself, is hardly monolithic anyway). -- regentspark ( comment) 18:34, 21 February 2020 (UTC)-
RegentsPark, that would be a great compromise. The same can apply to the Hispanic/Latino American parks article.
epicgenius (
talk)
19:32, 21 February 2020 (UTC)
- No, I don't think that's appropriate. Just put etymology in
List of New York City parks or something; we don't need another list for those named after women, and named after Italian Americans, and named after African Americans, and named after politicians, and named after activists, etc. This has not "been discussed as a group or set by independent reliable sources" and fails
WP:LISTN, getting to be
excessive cross-categorization.
Reywas92
Talk
20:15, 21 February 2020 (UTC)
- If it does turn out this page should be merged into the List of NYC Parks article, then it should be merged with the existing lists, because a standalone list won't do any good. Better to integrate it with what's already there.
epicgenius (
talk)
20:18, 21 February 2020 (UTC)
- Switched my !vote. As Reywas92 points out, these parks are named after Jewish persons associated with NYC. That they are associated with Jewish culture, or that their names were used because they were Jewish, is WP:OR (and, imo, mildly offensive). Ideally, this should be deleted, but, if that's not going to happen, some of it could be merged with Jews in New York City.-- regentspark ( comment) 15:57, 28 February 2020 (UTC)
- If it does turn out this page should be merged into the List of NYC Parks article, then it should be merged with the existing lists, because a standalone list won't do any good. Better to integrate it with what's already there.
epicgenius (
talk)
20:18, 21 February 2020 (UTC)
- No, I don't think that's appropriate. Just put etymology in
List of New York City parks or something; we don't need another list for those named after women, and named after Italian Americans, and named after African Americans, and named after politicians, and named after activists, etc. This has not "been discussed as a group or set by independent reliable sources" and fails
WP:LISTN, getting to be
excessive cross-categorization.
Reywas92
Talk
20:15, 21 February 2020 (UTC)
-
RegentsPark, that would be a great compromise. The same can apply to the Hispanic/Latino American parks article.
epicgenius (
talk)
19:32, 21 February 2020 (UTC)
- Keep This list and other lists of NYC Parks that I've compiled are helpful to the public in understanding the history of NYC Parks, impact of groups and individuals on the city, and sharing useful information. Some zealots on Wikipedia are too quick to hit delete. Let's remember why we are here- to share our knowledge with the world.--
Queens Historian (
talk)
18:41, 21 February 2020 (UTC)
- This provides nothing for "understanding the history of NYC Parks", it's a list of names. If you want to discuss the "impact of groups and individuals on the city", Jews in New York City is a great place to describe that in prose, not a list of names related only by the ethnic background of their namesake. Reywas92 Talk 20:15, 21 February 2020 (UTC)
- Delete per nom as OR. WP:SOAPBOX promotion of Jewish culture also applies. Clarityfiend ( talk) 20:17, 21 February 2020 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of New York-related deletion discussions. Coolabahapple ( talk) 23:31, 21 February 2020 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Geography-related deletion discussions. Coolabahapple ( talk) 23:31, 21 February 2020 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Judaism-related deletion discussions. Coolabahapple ( talk) 23:31, 21 February 2020 (UTC)
- Comment, i was going to suggest that all we need is this info in a "notes" column added to the
List of New York City parks tables but see that its not in table form, drat.
Coolabahapple (
talk)
23:36, 21 February 2020 (UTC)
- I tried to make a table out of it, but there doesn't seem to be an easy way to do it not by hand, maybe I can figure out something on AWB to automate it. However, even this list is just a selection: the number of (largely small and non-notable) squares, triangles, playgrounds, gardens, and parks managed by NYC Parks is so massive that their website apparently only lists them broken down by borough and first letter. I'm not sure if there's a good way to present this on Wikipedia – or if we even should. Every kids' playground (18 on this list) or quarter-acre undeveloped space doesn't really need to be noted here ( WP:NOTEVERYTHING) even if they're named in honor of someone of a particular background in a significant city. Reywas92 Talk 01:32, 22 February 2020 (UTC)
- Delete per Reywas92 and WP:NOTDIRECTORY. Yoninah ( talk) 20:43, 22 February 2020 (UTC)
- Keep or merge with
List of New York City parksJews in New York City Agree with Epicgenius above. And I don't think this whole list is original research, since everything on the list is cited, and more citations have been added since this discussion started. However, some of the citations don't mention "Jewish," so I think those need to be swapped out with better citations. I do think the title is weird, but it seems like "culture" is just being used as a general term, since a lot of the histories of these parks do relate to Jewish culture (as some of the sources seem to show). I also think the intersection between these parks and Judaism could be argued as culturally significant since it's a list of public space memorializations of Jewish people in NYC. WP:LISTN also mentions that cross-categorization lists that fulfill informational/navigation purposes are usually kept, and this seems to be useful information for finding Jewish places in NYC, so that's something to consider. - Whisperjanes ( talk) 07:23, 27 February 2020 (UTC)- In hindsight, the title for this article is a bit clumsy. Perhaps better to rename it as "List of New York City Parks Relating to Jewish Individuals and Culture." That way parks not named after people, such as Holocaust Memorial Park can remain on this list. I'd like to get feedback on a more ideal name for the page. And of course, I'll continue to add more sources to back up those from the Parks Department web page. Rename, don't delete.-- Queens Historian ( talk) 16:41, 27 February 2020 (UTC)
-
Whisperjanes a list doesn't fulfill any navigational purpose if there are little or no WP articles linked therein to navigate to. This article is hopelessly lopsided in favor of unlinked parks. And merging with
List of New York City parks doesn't seem logical because it would create a redundant list there.
WP:READERS of that article are interested in NYC parks, not Jewish culture.
StonyBrook (
talk)
17:09, 28 February 2020 (UTC)
- Thanks for pointing that out. I was reading "navigational" just by its name (a "navigational" purpose in physical spaces) - I didn't realize it was another wiki vocab word. I do actually agree it would be a bit strange to put this on the List of New York City parks, on second thought, unless there were other sections for different cultural-park categories (which there aren't, and I don't think there should be -- because it would give WP:UNDUE weight to any categories included as opposed to the ones excluded). I think merging with Jews in New York City might make more sense (if there were a section to be added on geography, locations, or parks) if merged at all, so I'm changing my "vote" above. - Whisperjanes ( talk) 21:47, 2 March 2020 (UTC)
- This article is a factual list of existing parks and monuments. There is no potential issue of bias. That this is being considered for deletion is a an example of potential bias. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:1017:B803:6D32:D9E5:D79B:6721:14DB ( talk) 03:24, 23 February 2020 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, North America 1000 09:01, 28 February 2020 (UTC)
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, North America 1000 09:01, 28 February 2020 (UTC)
- Merge with Jews in New York City, per nom's reasoning and WP:INDISCRIMINATE. Useful list, but not a topic for an encyclopedia, even one that is WP:NOTPAPER. I would also add other NYC infrastructure named for Jews in the above. StonyBrook ( talk) 14:00, 28 February 2020 (UTC)
- Merge with List of New York City parks or Jews in New York City. Lightburst ( talk) 04:55, 9 March 2020 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: Relisting, thought about closing as no consensus however the merging is a possibility. If this is to be moved/merged target would need to be agreed on.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Night fury 14:41, 11 March 2020 (UTC)
Relisting comment: Relisting, thought about closing as no consensus however the merging is a possibility. If this is to be moved/merged target would need to be agreed on.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Night fury 14:41, 11 March 2020 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, xinbenlv Talk, Remember to "ping" me 05:33, 21 March 2020 (UTC)
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, xinbenlv Talk, Remember to "ping" me 05:33, 21 March 2020 (UTC)
- Delete - This has been relisted several times; somebody needs to make a call. I would argue that this is a low value directory, so delete per NOTDIRECTORY. I can see the argument for a merge of some or most of this information to a page on Jewish culture in New York if somebody wants to do that; I don't see this as a rational stand-alone list, however. Carrite ( talk) 09:47, 23 March 2020 (UTC)
- merge with List of New York City parks as proposed above. Srijanx22 ( talk) 05:48, 24 March 2020 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was merge to place to be determined. I am at least average if not above average in my willingness to make a tough call. However after 38 days of discussion I cannot find a clear outcome here. There's a consensus this should not be a standalone article but not enough to delete. This defaults to a consensus to merge it but the opinion on the target for merge is divided between Jews in New York City and List of New York City parks. Someone can either BOLDLY merge into one of those places or can start a WP:MERGE discussion so watchers of those pages might weigh in on the suitability of that page for the merge or way in which a merge could be completed. Barkeep49 ( talk) 01:51, 31 March 2020 (UTC)
[Hide this box] New to Articles for deletion (AfD)? Read these primers!
- List of New York City parks relating to Jewish culture ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log · Stats)
- (Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
Wikipedia:No original research. No sources provided to show this is a notable subject. Loksmythe ( talk) 16:51, 21 February 2020 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Lists-related deletion discussions. Loksmythe ( talk) 16:51, 21 February 2020 (UTC)
Keep.Keep or merge with List of New York City parks or Jews in New York City. While I do agree that the sourcing needs to be improved, the NYC Parks citations do show a history of the parks' respective namesakes. Many of them clearly say that it was named for a Jewish subject. epicgenius ( talk) 17:03, 21 February 2020 (UTC)- I changed my vote. I do not think that this necessarily needs to be deleted, but maybe some of the contents can be merged. This has the potential to be improved, and I don't believe in throwing out articles unless there aren't any sources that show notability. In this case the subject is notable, but the sourcing just isn't there. epicgenius ( talk) 22:32, 21 February 2020 (UTC)
- Amended my vote for the record. epicgenius ( talk) 14:37, 3 March 2020 (UTC)
- Delete This is original research. I see no indication that really any of the parks "relate to Jewish culture" rather than are just named after people who were Jewish, which may be expected in a city with a significant Jewish population. The monuments and memorials that are more specifically about Jewish history are that: monuments and memorials, not parks (and I'm sure there's a number of these in the city outside of the parks too). I would encourage including them in Jews in New York City but this list is not the way to do it. There are so many parks in NYC and elsewhere named after a variety of people and we don't need lists for each intersection, especially short sources covering the topic as a whole. This likewise goes for List of New York City parks relating to Hispanic and Latino American culture and List of New York City parks relating to the Vietnam War, which are just namesakes. A better option would be making List of New York City parks into a table that includes that. Reywas92 Talk 18:26, 21 February 2020 (UTC)
CommentDelete or merge with Jews in New York City I think Reywas92 has the right response but I've been on Wikipedia too long, and seen too many "List of xyz"s to think that will actually happen. Perhaps rename to List of New York City parks named after Jewish People? Merely pointing to web pages on NYC parks doesn't support a relation with Jewish culture (which, by itself, is hardly monolithic anyway). -- regentspark ( comment) 18:34, 21 February 2020 (UTC)-
RegentsPark, that would be a great compromise. The same can apply to the Hispanic/Latino American parks article.
epicgenius (
talk)
19:32, 21 February 2020 (UTC)
- No, I don't think that's appropriate. Just put etymology in
List of New York City parks or something; we don't need another list for those named after women, and named after Italian Americans, and named after African Americans, and named after politicians, and named after activists, etc. This has not "been discussed as a group or set by independent reliable sources" and fails
WP:LISTN, getting to be
excessive cross-categorization.
Reywas92
Talk
20:15, 21 February 2020 (UTC)
- If it does turn out this page should be merged into the List of NYC Parks article, then it should be merged with the existing lists, because a standalone list won't do any good. Better to integrate it with what's already there.
epicgenius (
talk)
20:18, 21 February 2020 (UTC)
- Switched my !vote. As Reywas92 points out, these parks are named after Jewish persons associated with NYC. That they are associated with Jewish culture, or that their names were used because they were Jewish, is WP:OR (and, imo, mildly offensive). Ideally, this should be deleted, but, if that's not going to happen, some of it could be merged with Jews in New York City.-- regentspark ( comment) 15:57, 28 February 2020 (UTC)
- If it does turn out this page should be merged into the List of NYC Parks article, then it should be merged with the existing lists, because a standalone list won't do any good. Better to integrate it with what's already there.
epicgenius (
talk)
20:18, 21 February 2020 (UTC)
- No, I don't think that's appropriate. Just put etymology in
List of New York City parks or something; we don't need another list for those named after women, and named after Italian Americans, and named after African Americans, and named after politicians, and named after activists, etc. This has not "been discussed as a group or set by independent reliable sources" and fails
WP:LISTN, getting to be
excessive cross-categorization.
Reywas92
Talk
20:15, 21 February 2020 (UTC)
-
RegentsPark, that would be a great compromise. The same can apply to the Hispanic/Latino American parks article.
epicgenius (
talk)
19:32, 21 February 2020 (UTC)
- Keep This list and other lists of NYC Parks that I've compiled are helpful to the public in understanding the history of NYC Parks, impact of groups and individuals on the city, and sharing useful information. Some zealots on Wikipedia are too quick to hit delete. Let's remember why we are here- to share our knowledge with the world.--
Queens Historian (
talk)
18:41, 21 February 2020 (UTC)
- This provides nothing for "understanding the history of NYC Parks", it's a list of names. If you want to discuss the "impact of groups and individuals on the city", Jews in New York City is a great place to describe that in prose, not a list of names related only by the ethnic background of their namesake. Reywas92 Talk 20:15, 21 February 2020 (UTC)
- Delete per nom as OR. WP:SOAPBOX promotion of Jewish culture also applies. Clarityfiend ( talk) 20:17, 21 February 2020 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of New York-related deletion discussions. Coolabahapple ( talk) 23:31, 21 February 2020 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Geography-related deletion discussions. Coolabahapple ( talk) 23:31, 21 February 2020 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Judaism-related deletion discussions. Coolabahapple ( talk) 23:31, 21 February 2020 (UTC)
- Comment, i was going to suggest that all we need is this info in a "notes" column added to the
List of New York City parks tables but see that its not in table form, drat.
Coolabahapple (
talk)
23:36, 21 February 2020 (UTC)
- I tried to make a table out of it, but there doesn't seem to be an easy way to do it not by hand, maybe I can figure out something on AWB to automate it. However, even this list is just a selection: the number of (largely small and non-notable) squares, triangles, playgrounds, gardens, and parks managed by NYC Parks is so massive that their website apparently only lists them broken down by borough and first letter. I'm not sure if there's a good way to present this on Wikipedia – or if we even should. Every kids' playground (18 on this list) or quarter-acre undeveloped space doesn't really need to be noted here ( WP:NOTEVERYTHING) even if they're named in honor of someone of a particular background in a significant city. Reywas92 Talk 01:32, 22 February 2020 (UTC)
- Delete per Reywas92 and WP:NOTDIRECTORY. Yoninah ( talk) 20:43, 22 February 2020 (UTC)
- Keep or merge with
List of New York City parksJews in New York City Agree with Epicgenius above. And I don't think this whole list is original research, since everything on the list is cited, and more citations have been added since this discussion started. However, some of the citations don't mention "Jewish," so I think those need to be swapped out with better citations. I do think the title is weird, but it seems like "culture" is just being used as a general term, since a lot of the histories of these parks do relate to Jewish culture (as some of the sources seem to show). I also think the intersection between these parks and Judaism could be argued as culturally significant since it's a list of public space memorializations of Jewish people in NYC. WP:LISTN also mentions that cross-categorization lists that fulfill informational/navigation purposes are usually kept, and this seems to be useful information for finding Jewish places in NYC, so that's something to consider. - Whisperjanes ( talk) 07:23, 27 February 2020 (UTC)- In hindsight, the title for this article is a bit clumsy. Perhaps better to rename it as "List of New York City Parks Relating to Jewish Individuals and Culture." That way parks not named after people, such as Holocaust Memorial Park can remain on this list. I'd like to get feedback on a more ideal name for the page. And of course, I'll continue to add more sources to back up those from the Parks Department web page. Rename, don't delete.-- Queens Historian ( talk) 16:41, 27 February 2020 (UTC)
-
Whisperjanes a list doesn't fulfill any navigational purpose if there are little or no WP articles linked therein to navigate to. This article is hopelessly lopsided in favor of unlinked parks. And merging with
List of New York City parks doesn't seem logical because it would create a redundant list there.
WP:READERS of that article are interested in NYC parks, not Jewish culture.
StonyBrook (
talk)
17:09, 28 February 2020 (UTC)
- Thanks for pointing that out. I was reading "navigational" just by its name (a "navigational" purpose in physical spaces) - I didn't realize it was another wiki vocab word. I do actually agree it would be a bit strange to put this on the List of New York City parks, on second thought, unless there were other sections for different cultural-park categories (which there aren't, and I don't think there should be -- because it would give WP:UNDUE weight to any categories included as opposed to the ones excluded). I think merging with Jews in New York City might make more sense (if there were a section to be added on geography, locations, or parks) if merged at all, so I'm changing my "vote" above. - Whisperjanes ( talk) 21:47, 2 March 2020 (UTC)
- This article is a factual list of existing parks and monuments. There is no potential issue of bias. That this is being considered for deletion is a an example of potential bias. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:1017:B803:6D32:D9E5:D79B:6721:14DB ( talk) 03:24, 23 February 2020 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, North America 1000 09:01, 28 February 2020 (UTC)
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, North America 1000 09:01, 28 February 2020 (UTC)
- Merge with Jews in New York City, per nom's reasoning and WP:INDISCRIMINATE. Useful list, but not a topic for an encyclopedia, even one that is WP:NOTPAPER. I would also add other NYC infrastructure named for Jews in the above. StonyBrook ( talk) 14:00, 28 February 2020 (UTC)
- Merge with List of New York City parks or Jews in New York City. Lightburst ( talk) 04:55, 9 March 2020 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: Relisting, thought about closing as no consensus however the merging is a possibility. If this is to be moved/merged target would need to be agreed on.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Night fury 14:41, 11 March 2020 (UTC)
Relisting comment: Relisting, thought about closing as no consensus however the merging is a possibility. If this is to be moved/merged target would need to be agreed on.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Night fury 14:41, 11 March 2020 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, xinbenlv Talk, Remember to "ping" me 05:33, 21 March 2020 (UTC)
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, xinbenlv Talk, Remember to "ping" me 05:33, 21 March 2020 (UTC)
- Delete - This has been relisted several times; somebody needs to make a call. I would argue that this is a low value directory, so delete per NOTDIRECTORY. I can see the argument for a merge of some or most of this information to a page on Jewish culture in New York if somebody wants to do that; I don't see this as a rational stand-alone list, however. Carrite ( talk) 09:47, 23 March 2020 (UTC)
- merge with List of New York City parks as proposed above. Srijanx22 ( talk) 05:48, 24 March 2020 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.