- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was keep. As noted below, there is consensus that the nominator's complaint is really one about content (and no consensus to apply WP:TNT), and the sole WP:LISTN argument is without other support (and arguably rebutted by Arxiloxos). postdlf ( talk) 16:39, 22 January 2014 (UTC)
- List of National Basketball Association season minutes leaders ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log · Stats)
- (Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
This list is largely incorrect and therefore has to be remade from scratch. The minutes leaders in the NBA are and have always been determined by total minutes played, not by minutes per game average. Hoops gza ( talk) 20:32, 30 December 2013 (UTC)
- Default speedy close looks like a content dispute, there's not one iota of justification for deletion of this article in the nomination. Time wasted? Check. The Rambling Man ( talk) 20:34, 30 December 2013 (UTC)
- Keep. (EC). The nomination provides no rationale for deletion. If revisions to the list are needed those are to be addressed at the article's Talk page. AFD is not a forum for cleanup. -- do ncr am 20:36, 30 December 2013 (UTC)
- Note: This debate has been included in the list of Basketball-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k ( talk) 00:24, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
- Note: This debate has been included in the list of Lists of people-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k ( talk) 00:24, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
- Speedy Keep The proper forum for this discussion is at WT:NBA. Most stat leaders are based on per game averages and not totals. The WP:RS for this statistic uses average.-- TonyTheTiger ( T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 20:27, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
- Stat leaders are based on how they are discussed in reliable sources, which do not follow a general rule of always being an average or always a total. Nobody refers to average games played for games played leaders. The article sites both an average http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/mp_per_g_yearly.html and total from basketball-reference.com http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/mp_yearly.html, so even the RS doesnt tout one over another.— Bagumba ( talk) 17:47, 4 January 2014 (UTC)
- Comment Original AFD rationale aside, is there any evidence that WP:LISTN is met, namely that this grouping is discussed in reliable sources? All I see are sources from pure stats sites.— Bagumba ( talk) 21:08, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
- Delete Fails WP:LISTN, as I couldn't find any reliable sources that were non-pure statistics sites that discuss this grouping. If this was discussed in enough sources, it would also be clear if the grouping should be based on total minutes played or average minutes. Moreover, the general references cited in the article from basketball-reference.com has links to both average minutes leaders http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/mp_per_g_yearly.html and total minutes leaders http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/mp_yearly.html. Therefore, it's not even clear from the cited basketball-reference.com which is the more common grouping. It seems the nominator's concern with inappropriate entry critieria for the list, which some have said is a content issue, is in fact born from the list's lack of notability.— Bagumba ( talk) 17:26, 4 January 2014 (UTC)
- Note to closing admin The first three !votes argue for a procedural close and keep due to the nominators rationale being a content issue. Given my delete !vote due to lack of notability, hopefully those earlier !votes are either withdrawn or ignored.— Bagumba ( talk) 17:26, 4 January 2014 (UTC)
- Note to closing admin The list is reliably sourced to the same source used by almost all the lists at
Template:NBA statistical leaders. Since when does a reliable source have to be pure or non-pure anything? Why don't we hold a discussion at
WP:NBA on what counts as a notable statistic. The list has reason to cite both main references and this list does not preclude someone from creating a total minutes played list.--
TonyTheTiger (
T /
C /
WP:FOUR /
WP:CHICAGO /
WP:WAWARD)
17:51, 4 January 2014 (UTC)
- WP:LISTN is a community guideline, that a project would need good reason to ignore. You are arguing WP:OTHERSTUFF, but a list could be notable without sources because it is obviously notable and nobody wants to be disruptive and contest that the WP:SKYISBLUE. Notability, not verifiability of stats does apply, as WP:NOTSTATS guards against a list being created for every random stat list at [1]. As the nominator made a good faith argument that the criteria is not notable, it seems reasonable that references should be identified to prove average minutes played leaders, or any minutes played leaders, are discussed as a group.— Bagumba ( talk) 18:12, 4 January 2014 (UTC)
-
this is an example of a minute played per game article from a RS. Other exmaples include
[2].-
TonyTheTiger (
T /
C /
WP:FOUR /
WP:CHICAGO /
WP:WAWARD)
18:29, 4 January 2014 (UTC)
- The first source is from the Yahoo Contributor Network, which is a blog service anyone can write for and should not be considered reliable. See the bottom where it says "This article was written by a Yahoo! contributor. Sign up here to start publishing your own sports content." The author is not an employee of Yahoo Sports. The second source does not make any mention of the group of annual minutes leaders. LISTN says "The entirety of the list does not need to be documented in sources for notability, only that the grouping or set in general has been."—
Bagumba (
talk)
22:56, 4 January 2014 (UTC)
- It is unclear whether the Contributor Network has an editorial process or not (which is the determining factor for whether it is an RS), but they seem to be paid, which makes it likely that they have an editorial process. I don't see why the second reference does not count as "the grouping or set in general".-- TonyTheTiger ( T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 23:44, 5 January 2014 (UTC)
- The first source is from the Yahoo Contributor Network, which is a blog service anyone can write for and should not be considered reliable. See the bottom where it says "This article was written by a Yahoo! contributor. Sign up here to start publishing your own sports content." The author is not an employee of Yahoo Sports. The second source does not make any mention of the group of annual minutes leaders. LISTN says "The entirety of the list does not need to be documented in sources for notability, only that the grouping or set in general has been."—
Bagumba (
talk)
22:56, 4 January 2014 (UTC)
This was not my reason for deleting the article. The point is that the National Basketball Association does track "minutes leaders" and the official criteria has always been total minutes played, not minutes per game average. You can see the list of minutes leaders in any edition of the Official NBA Guide and it will show that it is total minutes. The most recent edition is available here on pages 130 and 131: [3]. This is what is meant by "leading the league in minutes". We can't have an article on Wikipedia that is titled "List of National Basketball Association season minutes leaders" that is half incorrect. Hoops gza ( talk) 21:57, 4 January 2014 (UTC)
- So User:Hoops gza, are you arguing that the content of the article is incorrect, or that the article shouldn't exist? I'm unclear. Please help me. The Rambling Man ( talk) 21:59, 4 January 2014 (UTC)
The content of the article is incorrect. But since it basically has to be remade from scratch, I thought that it might be better to delete it. This was wrong and mininformed in hindsight. Hoops gza ( talk) 22:02, 4 January 2014 (UTC)
- Okay, suggest this is snow closed as the original nomination is not correctly instigated. If content discussion needs to take place, it can take place on the talk page or at a Wikiproject or similar. AFD is not the place for the place for this.
The Rambling Man (
talk)
22:07, 4 January 2014 (UTC)
- Neither this current article, or the proposed changed content to total minutes played, meets LISTN. Seems like we would be creating more work to procedurally close this on a technicality just to reopen another one, when we can simply continue with this already open AdD and discuss its notability. Bagumba ( talk) 23:05, 4 January 2014 (UTC)
- NOte that ESPN considers minutes per game to be a notable statistic and they keep track of the leaders here.-- TonyTheTiger ( T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 23:51, 5 January 2014 (UTC)
-
NBA.com keeps track of the stat
here.--
TonyTheTiger (
T /
C /
WP:FOUR /
WP:CHICAGO /
WP:WAWARD)
23:51, 5 January 2014 (UTC)
- And NBA.com also has total—not average—minutes
here. In short, there is no end to the stats that websites will produce. Hence, WP:NOTSTATS.—
Bagumba (
talk)
05:47, 6 January 2014 (UTC)
- It is misleading to make the argument that the page you pointed to shows total minutes. It shows total points, rebounds, assists and steals, but there is no one saying that the NBA recognizes total leaders in any of those categories. The official leadership statistic is the link I presented above, which is average minutes.--
TonyTheTiger (
T /
C /
WP:FOUR /
WP:CHICAGO /
WP:WAWARD)
06:07, 6 January 2014 (UTC)
- Let's not get sidetracked. The only sources that have been provided are more stats listings that show the grouping for season minutes leaders; we know stats sites exist. However, no reliable sources have been identified that discuss the grouping in prose. To me, LISTN is not met, and NOTSTATS is appropriate. Let's avoid WP:WABBITSEASON unless sources are found that discuss the grouping in prose.— Bagumba ( talk) 06:33, 6 January 2014 (UTC)
- It is misleading to make the argument that the page you pointed to shows total minutes. It shows total points, rebounds, assists and steals, but there is no one saying that the NBA recognizes total leaders in any of those categories. The official leadership statistic is the link I presented above, which is average minutes.--
TonyTheTiger (
T /
C /
WP:FOUR /
WP:CHICAGO /
WP:WAWARD)
06:07, 6 January 2014 (UTC)
- And NBA.com also has total—not average—minutes
here. In short, there is no end to the stats that websites will produce. Hence, WP:NOTSTATS.—
Bagumba (
talk)
05:47, 6 January 2014 (UTC)
I provided the official list of minutes leaders; they are grouped by total not average. I do find it strange that NBA.com would use average, while the Official Guide would use total. Either way I have to say that the subject's notability is arguable. Hoops gza ( talk) 17:36, 6 January 2014 (UTC)
-
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.
- Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, — Coffee // have a cup // beans // 16:49, 13 January 2014 (UTC)
- Relisting admin comment: I'm relisting the debate at this time to facilitate discussion beyond the possibly faulty AFD opening rationale. The question that needs to be answered at this point by the community is whether this list meets the requirements of WP:LISTN. — Coffee // have a cup // beans // 16:51, 13 January 2014 (UTC)
- Keep. Minutes played (whether per game or total) is certainly a notable stat and something that is often mentioned in evaluating a player's season or career. [4] Content disagreements will need resolution but the list is worth keeping. -- Arxiloxos ( talk) 18:59, 13 January 2014 (UTC)
- Thanks for the link. I couldn't find sources there that weren't just an almanac-like stats listing (
WP:NOTSTATS), or that talked about members of the group of season minutes leaders (
WP:LISTN). Minutes leaders in a given season are discussed but nothing in relation to winners from season-to-season. LISTN recommends: "The entirety of the list does not need to be documented in sources for notability, only that the grouping or set in general has been."—
Bagumba (
talk)
22:37, 13 January 2014 (UTC)
- This topic is a bear to search, especially now that Google News Archives are no longer useful to isolate reliable sources that aren't behind paywalls. But here is a 2011 piece from The New York Times discussing Monta Ellis's playing time and comparing him in that respect to Jordan, Iverson, and Chamberlain among others. [5] -- Arxiloxos ( talk) 01:18, 14 January 2014 (UTC)
- Thanks for the link. I couldn't find sources there that weren't just an almanac-like stats listing (
WP:NOTSTATS), or that talked about members of the group of season minutes leaders (
WP:LISTN). Minutes leaders in a given season are discussed but nothing in relation to winners from season-to-season. LISTN recommends: "The entirety of the list does not need to be documented in sources for notability, only that the grouping or set in general has been."—
Bagumba (
talk)
22:37, 13 January 2014 (UTC)
- Comment The outcome of this AfD will be useful to determine if sports stats lists need to demonstrate sources that satisfy WP:LISTN to guard against WP:NOTSTATS, or if it is sufficient to have WP:VERIFIABILITY and subjective criteria that a stat is notable. For example, can new list be created for all stats at http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/, e.g. Win Shares Per 48 Minutes?— Bagumba ( talk) 22:20, 13 January 2014 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was keep. As noted below, there is consensus that the nominator's complaint is really one about content (and no consensus to apply WP:TNT), and the sole WP:LISTN argument is without other support (and arguably rebutted by Arxiloxos). postdlf ( talk) 16:39, 22 January 2014 (UTC)
- List of National Basketball Association season minutes leaders ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log · Stats)
- (Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
This list is largely incorrect and therefore has to be remade from scratch. The minutes leaders in the NBA are and have always been determined by total minutes played, not by minutes per game average. Hoops gza ( talk) 20:32, 30 December 2013 (UTC)
- Default speedy close looks like a content dispute, there's not one iota of justification for deletion of this article in the nomination. Time wasted? Check. The Rambling Man ( talk) 20:34, 30 December 2013 (UTC)
- Keep. (EC). The nomination provides no rationale for deletion. If revisions to the list are needed those are to be addressed at the article's Talk page. AFD is not a forum for cleanup. -- do ncr am 20:36, 30 December 2013 (UTC)
- Note: This debate has been included in the list of Basketball-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k ( talk) 00:24, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
- Note: This debate has been included in the list of Lists of people-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k ( talk) 00:24, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
- Speedy Keep The proper forum for this discussion is at WT:NBA. Most stat leaders are based on per game averages and not totals. The WP:RS for this statistic uses average.-- TonyTheTiger ( T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 20:27, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
- Stat leaders are based on how they are discussed in reliable sources, which do not follow a general rule of always being an average or always a total. Nobody refers to average games played for games played leaders. The article sites both an average http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/mp_per_g_yearly.html and total from basketball-reference.com http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/mp_yearly.html, so even the RS doesnt tout one over another.— Bagumba ( talk) 17:47, 4 January 2014 (UTC)
- Comment Original AFD rationale aside, is there any evidence that WP:LISTN is met, namely that this grouping is discussed in reliable sources? All I see are sources from pure stats sites.— Bagumba ( talk) 21:08, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
- Delete Fails WP:LISTN, as I couldn't find any reliable sources that were non-pure statistics sites that discuss this grouping. If this was discussed in enough sources, it would also be clear if the grouping should be based on total minutes played or average minutes. Moreover, the general references cited in the article from basketball-reference.com has links to both average minutes leaders http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/mp_per_g_yearly.html and total minutes leaders http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/mp_yearly.html. Therefore, it's not even clear from the cited basketball-reference.com which is the more common grouping. It seems the nominator's concern with inappropriate entry critieria for the list, which some have said is a content issue, is in fact born from the list's lack of notability.— Bagumba ( talk) 17:26, 4 January 2014 (UTC)
- Note to closing admin The first three !votes argue for a procedural close and keep due to the nominators rationale being a content issue. Given my delete !vote due to lack of notability, hopefully those earlier !votes are either withdrawn or ignored.— Bagumba ( talk) 17:26, 4 January 2014 (UTC)
- Note to closing admin The list is reliably sourced to the same source used by almost all the lists at
Template:NBA statistical leaders. Since when does a reliable source have to be pure or non-pure anything? Why don't we hold a discussion at
WP:NBA on what counts as a notable statistic. The list has reason to cite both main references and this list does not preclude someone from creating a total minutes played list.--
TonyTheTiger (
T /
C /
WP:FOUR /
WP:CHICAGO /
WP:WAWARD)
17:51, 4 January 2014 (UTC)
- WP:LISTN is a community guideline, that a project would need good reason to ignore. You are arguing WP:OTHERSTUFF, but a list could be notable without sources because it is obviously notable and nobody wants to be disruptive and contest that the WP:SKYISBLUE. Notability, not verifiability of stats does apply, as WP:NOTSTATS guards against a list being created for every random stat list at [1]. As the nominator made a good faith argument that the criteria is not notable, it seems reasonable that references should be identified to prove average minutes played leaders, or any minutes played leaders, are discussed as a group.— Bagumba ( talk) 18:12, 4 January 2014 (UTC)
-
this is an example of a minute played per game article from a RS. Other exmaples include
[2].-
TonyTheTiger (
T /
C /
WP:FOUR /
WP:CHICAGO /
WP:WAWARD)
18:29, 4 January 2014 (UTC)
- The first source is from the Yahoo Contributor Network, which is a blog service anyone can write for and should not be considered reliable. See the bottom where it says "This article was written by a Yahoo! contributor. Sign up here to start publishing your own sports content." The author is not an employee of Yahoo Sports. The second source does not make any mention of the group of annual minutes leaders. LISTN says "The entirety of the list does not need to be documented in sources for notability, only that the grouping or set in general has been."—
Bagumba (
talk)
22:56, 4 January 2014 (UTC)
- It is unclear whether the Contributor Network has an editorial process or not (which is the determining factor for whether it is an RS), but they seem to be paid, which makes it likely that they have an editorial process. I don't see why the second reference does not count as "the grouping or set in general".-- TonyTheTiger ( T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 23:44, 5 January 2014 (UTC)
- The first source is from the Yahoo Contributor Network, which is a blog service anyone can write for and should not be considered reliable. See the bottom where it says "This article was written by a Yahoo! contributor. Sign up here to start publishing your own sports content." The author is not an employee of Yahoo Sports. The second source does not make any mention of the group of annual minutes leaders. LISTN says "The entirety of the list does not need to be documented in sources for notability, only that the grouping or set in general has been."—
Bagumba (
talk)
22:56, 4 January 2014 (UTC)
This was not my reason for deleting the article. The point is that the National Basketball Association does track "minutes leaders" and the official criteria has always been total minutes played, not minutes per game average. You can see the list of minutes leaders in any edition of the Official NBA Guide and it will show that it is total minutes. The most recent edition is available here on pages 130 and 131: [3]. This is what is meant by "leading the league in minutes". We can't have an article on Wikipedia that is titled "List of National Basketball Association season minutes leaders" that is half incorrect. Hoops gza ( talk) 21:57, 4 January 2014 (UTC)
- So User:Hoops gza, are you arguing that the content of the article is incorrect, or that the article shouldn't exist? I'm unclear. Please help me. The Rambling Man ( talk) 21:59, 4 January 2014 (UTC)
The content of the article is incorrect. But since it basically has to be remade from scratch, I thought that it might be better to delete it. This was wrong and mininformed in hindsight. Hoops gza ( talk) 22:02, 4 January 2014 (UTC)
- Okay, suggest this is snow closed as the original nomination is not correctly instigated. If content discussion needs to take place, it can take place on the talk page or at a Wikiproject or similar. AFD is not the place for the place for this.
The Rambling Man (
talk)
22:07, 4 January 2014 (UTC)
- Neither this current article, or the proposed changed content to total minutes played, meets LISTN. Seems like we would be creating more work to procedurally close this on a technicality just to reopen another one, when we can simply continue with this already open AdD and discuss its notability. Bagumba ( talk) 23:05, 4 January 2014 (UTC)
- NOte that ESPN considers minutes per game to be a notable statistic and they keep track of the leaders here.-- TonyTheTiger ( T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 23:51, 5 January 2014 (UTC)
-
NBA.com keeps track of the stat
here.--
TonyTheTiger (
T /
C /
WP:FOUR /
WP:CHICAGO /
WP:WAWARD)
23:51, 5 January 2014 (UTC)
- And NBA.com also has total—not average—minutes
here. In short, there is no end to the stats that websites will produce. Hence, WP:NOTSTATS.—
Bagumba (
talk)
05:47, 6 January 2014 (UTC)
- It is misleading to make the argument that the page you pointed to shows total minutes. It shows total points, rebounds, assists and steals, but there is no one saying that the NBA recognizes total leaders in any of those categories. The official leadership statistic is the link I presented above, which is average minutes.--
TonyTheTiger (
T /
C /
WP:FOUR /
WP:CHICAGO /
WP:WAWARD)
06:07, 6 January 2014 (UTC)
- Let's not get sidetracked. The only sources that have been provided are more stats listings that show the grouping for season minutes leaders; we know stats sites exist. However, no reliable sources have been identified that discuss the grouping in prose. To me, LISTN is not met, and NOTSTATS is appropriate. Let's avoid WP:WABBITSEASON unless sources are found that discuss the grouping in prose.— Bagumba ( talk) 06:33, 6 January 2014 (UTC)
- It is misleading to make the argument that the page you pointed to shows total minutes. It shows total points, rebounds, assists and steals, but there is no one saying that the NBA recognizes total leaders in any of those categories. The official leadership statistic is the link I presented above, which is average minutes.--
TonyTheTiger (
T /
C /
WP:FOUR /
WP:CHICAGO /
WP:WAWARD)
06:07, 6 January 2014 (UTC)
- And NBA.com also has total—not average—minutes
here. In short, there is no end to the stats that websites will produce. Hence, WP:NOTSTATS.—
Bagumba (
talk)
05:47, 6 January 2014 (UTC)
I provided the official list of minutes leaders; they are grouped by total not average. I do find it strange that NBA.com would use average, while the Official Guide would use total. Either way I have to say that the subject's notability is arguable. Hoops gza ( talk) 17:36, 6 January 2014 (UTC)
-
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.
- Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, — Coffee // have a cup // beans // 16:49, 13 January 2014 (UTC)
- Relisting admin comment: I'm relisting the debate at this time to facilitate discussion beyond the possibly faulty AFD opening rationale. The question that needs to be answered at this point by the community is whether this list meets the requirements of WP:LISTN. — Coffee // have a cup // beans // 16:51, 13 January 2014 (UTC)
- Keep. Minutes played (whether per game or total) is certainly a notable stat and something that is often mentioned in evaluating a player's season or career. [4] Content disagreements will need resolution but the list is worth keeping. -- Arxiloxos ( talk) 18:59, 13 January 2014 (UTC)
- Thanks for the link. I couldn't find sources there that weren't just an almanac-like stats listing (
WP:NOTSTATS), or that talked about members of the group of season minutes leaders (
WP:LISTN). Minutes leaders in a given season are discussed but nothing in relation to winners from season-to-season. LISTN recommends: "The entirety of the list does not need to be documented in sources for notability, only that the grouping or set in general has been."—
Bagumba (
talk)
22:37, 13 January 2014 (UTC)
- This topic is a bear to search, especially now that Google News Archives are no longer useful to isolate reliable sources that aren't behind paywalls. But here is a 2011 piece from The New York Times discussing Monta Ellis's playing time and comparing him in that respect to Jordan, Iverson, and Chamberlain among others. [5] -- Arxiloxos ( talk) 01:18, 14 January 2014 (UTC)
- Thanks for the link. I couldn't find sources there that weren't just an almanac-like stats listing (
WP:NOTSTATS), or that talked about members of the group of season minutes leaders (
WP:LISTN). Minutes leaders in a given season are discussed but nothing in relation to winners from season-to-season. LISTN recommends: "The entirety of the list does not need to be documented in sources for notability, only that the grouping or set in general has been."—
Bagumba (
talk)
22:37, 13 January 2014 (UTC)
- Comment The outcome of this AfD will be useful to determine if sports stats lists need to demonstrate sources that satisfy WP:LISTN to guard against WP:NOTSTATS, or if it is sufficient to have WP:VERIFIABILITY and subjective criteria that a stat is notable. For example, can new list be created for all stats at http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/, e.g. Win Shares Per 48 Minutes?— Bagumba ( talk) 22:20, 13 January 2014 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.