The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. It looks like the majority of editors in this discussion believe this town satisfies WP:GEOLAND. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 22:06, 19 September 2022 (UTC) reply

Lee, Indiana

Lee, Indiana (  | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log | edits since nomination)

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Here I have come across a new low in edit comments, with the whole section on the Monon added with the following note: "Added more info. Mostly hearsay from men and women who were at there at the time." The section on the railroad museum is also padding, as it is nowhere near Lee. Also in the edit comments is a citation to A Standard History of White County, Indiana from 1915, which on pp. 209-210 identifies the place as a post office and shipping point on the Monon; the writer records an aspiration of the place to develop beyond that, but given the date of publication I would want something later to record that expansion. As it is, we have a few houses sprinkled about with nothing else suggesting a town. Mangoe ( talk) 19:42, 6 September 2022 (UTC) reply

• Automated comment: This AfD was not correctly transcluded to the log ( step 3). I have transcluded it to Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Log/2022 September 6. — ^{cyberbot I} _{Talk to my owner:Online} 19:57, 6 September 2022 (UTC) reply
• Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Geography and Indiana. Spiderone ^{(Talk to Spider)} 20:00, 6 September 2022 (UTC) reply
• Comment: I think this might meet WP:GEOLAND? It's always difficult to assess that for a place that was never large, and then mostly abandoned for a long time. My search only yields this, but if that book "History and Reflections of Lee, Indiana" actually was published, it might give support to the claims on that page (Lee, Indiana, like so many throughout the state, died out when the rail lines stopped passenger service and closed depots), and might have been the source of some of the info in the article. I'm frankly unsure how to vote here ( WP:GEOLAND has given me headaches before), so only leaving a comment. – LordPickleII ( talk) 20:38, 6 September 2022 (UTC) reply

  It is unfortunate that the book is not online, but a preview by the State of Indiana government website regarding legacy projects does reference it and supports the statement: These stops became small towns complete with a depot, stores and early settlers. Lee, Indiana, like so many throughout the state, died out when the rail lines stopped and closed depots. Djflem ( talk) 07:14, 8 September 2022 (UTC) reply

• Delete - Performed a newspapers.com search. This location is variously called Lee, Lee Station, and Lee's Station. Only coverage I can find is sporadic mentions in obituaries and railway news (e.g. "Man hit by train four miles from Lee Station"). There was apparently a "Lee M.E. church", but other than that, nothing new. Fails NGEO and GNG. - Indy beetle ( talk) 05:11, 7 September 2022 (UTC) reply

  Certainly a post office, a rail station, and church [1] [2] are a settlement/community, no? Even if somewhat abandoned? per Bass, Cotter (2020), The Treasure Hunter's Guide To INDIANA'S LOST & BURIED TREASURES: Plus GHOST TOWNS & HISTORIC SITES, BookRix, ISBN  9783748767732 Djflem ( talk) 08:00, 7 September 2022 (UTC) reply

  Sure, but not satisfying NGEO I think as "Populated places without legal recognition are considered on a case-by-case basis in accordance with the GNG." I do not think there is enough SIGCOV. "Lee was place with a post office open from X to Y and had a rail depot and church" is hardly an article. - Indy beetle ( talk) 09:21, 7 September 2022 (UTC) reply

  As as NGEO NGEO says (see below), it's appropriate to redirect/merge. Djflem ( talk) 11:46, 7 September 2022 (UTC) reply

• Merge (selective) to Monon Township, White County, Indiana per Wikipedia:NGEO If a Wikipedia article cannot be developed using known sources, information on the informal place should be included in the more general article on the legally recognized populated place or administrative subdivision that contains it. and per Hamelle, W. H. (1915), A Standard History of White County, Indiana: An Authentic Narrative of the Past, with an Extended Survey of Modern Developments in the Progress of Town and Country, University of Wisconsin - Madison, p. 209, OAKDALE, OR LEE The only existing postoffice in Monon Township outside the village is Lee , in the northwest corner , about a mile from the Jasper County line on the Louisville , New Albany & Chicago (Monon) Railroad. and other. Djflem ( talk) 08:00, 7 September 2022 (UTC) reply

  Keep per HEY (additions and improvements to article): satisfies GNG. Djflem ( talk) 21:53, 12 September 2022 (UTC) reply

• Keep per WP:GEOLAND. There are certainly quite a few named "localities" in Indiana that in practice are not actually populated places in any reasonable sense, and it's good for those to be deleted. Lee, however, doesn't seem to fall into that category. For one thing, I notice it has multiple named streets of its own, something GNIS-spam non-towns generally don't and a good indication that it's a recognized populated place, presumably like any other existing ones with a town plat at the courthouse. (Most like the rightly deleted Pleasant Acres and others tend to be just indistinguishable points along county roads.) It also has documented history; for any small rural community it's to be expected that it'll be sparse, and no less so for Lee that for many others that we rightly retain. Though it's certainly small, Lee appears to be a legitimate town, and deleting it would be contrary to the guidance at GEOLAND: "Populated, legally recognized places are typically presumed to be notable, even if their population is very low." ╠╣uw [ talk 11:04, 7 September 2022 (UTC) reply

  How is it "legally recognized"? It doesn't appear to have ever been incorporated. - Indy beetle ( talk) 12:03, 7 September 2022 (UTC) reply

  No, it's not incorporated (at least not that I'm aware of), but even under GEOLAND's guidelines for populated places without legal recognition it's still appropriate to retain the article, in that it has the characteristics and long-term historical indicators of a legitimate and extant (though small and unincorporated) town, and not just a non-notable GNIS/GEOnNS artifact. I support efforts to clean up Wikipedia by getting rid of the latter, but I favor keeping the former. ╠╣uw [ talk 14:34, 7 September 2022 (UTC) reply

  Legal recognition and incorporation are not one and the same thing by any means (the former being a poorly defined term Wikipedia term in a geographical context, bantered about for a long time). It's just that incorporated places get a "free pass to "wikinotablity" via NGEO. It's not even clear if townships in Indiana are incorporated, but they, too, get a "free pass". Djflem ( talk) 15:43, 7 September 2022 (UTC) reply

  Yeah, I was wondering about the "legal recognition" phrase too since it seems a bit murky, and as you say it's not synonymous with incorporation. For things that are more than just "GNIS fluff" and for which at least a modicum of documentary and historical evidence exists in reliable sources, I think it's best to retain, and it seems like Lee's in that group. ╠╣uw [ talk 17:09, 7 September 2022 (UTC) reply

  I know there have been debates about what "legal recognition" entails. Incorporation is just an example of something that satisfies that. What kind of legal recognition are you talking about? Is there evidence that this is a CDP? - Indy beetle ( talk) 00:15, 8 September 2022 (UTC) reply

  Appears we moved away from the unuseful debate about legal recognition, which is a non-defining term. What would be inappropriate about following the NGEO guidle line which suggests merge for "informal places"? Djflem ( talk) 04:24, 8 September 2022 (UTC) reply

  Since GEOLANDS separates guidelines on the basis of legal recognition, it unfortunately seems like something we do still have to consider. Is being formally platted as a town something that would constitute a form of legal recognition? (If so, that's something I could probably verify.) ╠╣uw [ talk 14:41, 8 September 2022 (UTC) reply

  That might depend on who platted it. The town of Pembroke, North Carolina, for example, was platted by a real estate management subsidiary of the railway company which built a station there, several years before the town gained incorporation, so that lots could be sold to people and businesses who wanted to locate nearby. Private platting doesn't seem like "legal recognition". - Indy beetle ( talk) 17:47, 8 September 2022 (UTC) reply

• Delete - No actual evidence of legal recognition or significant coverage to meet GEOLAND or GNG. Despite its age, A Standard History of White County, Indiana (1915) is the best source we have; The Treasure Hunter's Guide To INDIANA'S LOST & BURIED TREASURES is self-published through Bookrix and many of its entries cite Wikipedia. With these old platted towns, it's often hard to parse whether or not they were ever actually developed, but it's telling that after 30 years of existence the 1915 source only mentions it as a post office instead of including it alongside the town of Monon/New Bradford. If there had been anything in Lee besides the post office and railroad shipping point, then surely the author would have said so. – dlthewave ☎ 17:30, 7 September 2022 (UTC) reply

  Conjecture about what and why a writer writes something or not is clearly not a AfD argument, is it? Twenty five years later still worthy of inclusion in this 1908 map. Unclear what is depicted in this 1920 map. Could it be the church, which goes unmentioned above, but certainly speaks to more than a PO or RR station? Djflem ( talk) 18:03, 7 September 2022 (UTC) reply

  No, the 1915 source doesn't say it was only a post office: "Oakdale, or Lee, is an important shipping point for hay. Hundreds of tons are baled at the station every year and shipped abroad, and, with the improvement of the surrounding farming lands, it has become an equally good point for the marketing and shipping of grain." (Multiple other sources also call out the grain market.) So we know it was at least a post office, railway station, grain market, and center for transportation of local bulk agricultural products including grain and hay. The town's roughly 120 lots were also laid out on multiple named streets, three of which are still there today. ╠╣uw [ talk 17:09, 11 September 2022 (UTC) reply

Update: I took a trip to the library (and explored more online) to look for additional supporting sources and found several more which I've added to the article. I actually wound up boldly rewriting a majority of the article text, not just to incorporate the new sources but also to flesh out the historical summary and geographical descriptions, correct some minor errors and misstatements, add a photo of the town, etc.

A few of the additional sources relate specifically to Lee and its history, features, status, etc. It's noted in Baker and Carmony's Indiana Place Names (1975) and in Baker's From Needmore to Prosperity (1995), which describes it as a village and grain market established by (and named for) ID&C Railroad President John Lee in 1883. The origins are also described by the Monon Railroad Historical Technical-Society (citation added). I note too that Hamelle's Standard History (previously cited) describes Lee as "an important shipping point for hay" as well as a local center for grain shipping and marketing; this point wasn't previously mentioned in the text but is now included. As I mentioned earlier I also wanted to find more plat-related details, and though I wasn't able to check the original records in Monticello I did find multiple volumes of official plat books in the library (published from 1990 through the early 2000s) that identify Lee as a town or village, rather than simply a point. I'll follow up with more details when I get the actual plat.

Some of the other newly-added sources touch only on related subjects in the article such as the history of the railroad that passes through town, the local geography, etc., and so aren't strictly relevant to this discussion; I included them while I was doing my update, though, just in the interest of strengthening the article overall.

(Note: Several of the reference citations I put in have overly length quotation blocks, something I did deliberately as a temporary aid to expanding and reviewing the article. These can and should be trimmed down once they've been reviewed.) ╠╣uw [ talk 16:01, 11 September 2022 (UTC) reply

• Keep per sources found by Huwmanbeing. A trip to the library, wow! That's kinda old school, I like it :) Coverage is still a little thin, but I am convinced the sources now suffice to establish notability. – LordPeterII ( talk) 17:25, 11 September 2022 (UTC) reply

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Comr Melody Idoghor (talk) 21:10, 13 September 2022 (UTC) reply

• Keep. This appears to satisfy WP:GEOLAND inasmuch as this is a legally recognized place that is currently (and has historically been) populated, so WP:DEL-REASON#8 is off the table. The sourcing is substantial enough to write a brief encyclopedia entry, but this is not destined to be a permastub. As such, I see no convincing reason to do anything other than keep the page. — Red-tailed hawk  _(nest) 06:07, 14 September 2022 (UTC) reply

"Presumed to be notable" isn't the same thing as actually being notable, something can pass WP:GEOLAND and still be reasonably deleted per consensus. Horse Eye's Back ( talk) 15:56, 14 September 2022 (UTC) reply

WP:N#1 requires that a subject meet either the general notability guideline... or the criteria outlined in a subject-specific notability guideline (emphasis added), so passing WP:GEOLAND is perfectly sufficient and does not require a GNG pass. That being said, this article also does pass GNG through coverage by multiple independent RS, including:

1. [3] pp. 209-210, which describes the origin of the town
2. [4], which per the Indiana Bicentennial Commission is a whole book on the history of Lee.

— Red-tailed hawk  _(nest) 17:12, 14 September 2022 (UTC) reply

• Delete, does not meet GNG. Horse Eye's Back ( talk) 15:56, 14 September 2022 (UTC) reply
• Keep, meets GNG with the two pieces of SIGCOV listed above by Red-tailed hawk, which includes a whole book on this town's history. BeanieFan11 ( talk) 20:51, 16 September 2022 (UTC) reply
• Keep the place had a fucntioning post office for 50 years, that'll generate coverage, even if it's never made it to digital. Not your siblings' deletionist ( talk) 22:24, 17 September 2022 (UTC) reply

I'm not aware that post offices typically generate coverage and our guidelines certainly don't support that assertion. WP:NRV requires "verificable, objective evidence", not just a vague claim that sources probably exist offline. – dlthewave ☎ 12:47, 18 September 2022 (UTC) reply

• Keep, while the book about Lee cited above is clearly unreliable, as it was self-published by someone who does not appear to be a subject-matter expert, this place does clearly pass WP:GEOLAND. Devonian Wombat ( talk) 11:25, 18 September 2022 (UTC) reply

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.