The result was delete. The crux of the dispute here seems to boil down to whether or not Church on the Rock is a major religious movement and whether Kennedy is the equivalent of a bishop. Consensus seems to be leaning in the direction that he is not. While Church on the Rock certainly appears to represent a lot of folks, it self-describes as non-denominational, therefore it would seem that comparisons to the Catholic or other major Christian sects power structures are invalid. As an aside I would add that the numerous accusations of bad faith present here have no place in this debate and were not considered when making this close. Beeblebrox ( talk) 19:23, 8 September 2011 (UTC) reply
Article was originally nominated for speedy deletion as it did not contain any non-inherited notability claims. The article creator made an argument on the talk page for notability, so I agreed to remove the speedy and start an AfD. Unfortunately my research has not turned up significant reliable source coverage to establish notability for the article subject. The bulk of the citations on the current article are primary sources linked directly to organizations the subject is involved in, and do not establish notability. Other notability claims include, "He is friends with David Yonggi Cho" and "He is the father of Texas philanthropist and politician Lance Kennedy and a descendant of Republic of Texas politician John J. Kennedy." and "He sits on the board of governors of the S. Daniel Abraham Center of Strategic Dialogue" and that he performed a wedding for Chuck Norris. All of these claims are inherited notability claims (giving the benefit of the doubt that the subjects he is affiliated with are even notable - which is not entirely clear in some cases). I am unable to find significant reliable source coverage to establish the notability of these claims, with the one exception of perhaps being mentioned in Norris' autobiography (but I have not pulled the paper version to verify). Even if that is verified, it still is a rather weak claim of notability unless reported in a reliable secondary source. ConcernedVancouverite ( talk) 17:17, 31 August 2011 (UTC) reply
Weak keep - Some level of notability has been established by the sources provided, but I am undecided as to notaable Kennedy is. I would argue that the article is kept because the sources do seem to giv at least some level of notability. My persona decision could be swayed either way - I'd want to listen to further opinions and see whether any additional sources can be found.
ItsZippy (
talk) 21:23, 31 August 2011 (UTC)
reply
Change to delete - The references do not do enough to me to suggest notability. For notability, Lawrence Kennedy needs to be the primary focus of the source. The ones given mention him in passing - the primary focus is an organisation or another person. If there exists a source which is primarily about Kennedy, then I would vote to keep it. As there is not, it seems he is not notable enough. ItsZippy ( talk) 16:32, 1 September 2011 (UTC) reply
Let me look at each source individually. The first source is just a list of churches. Kennedy is mentioned in passing, as the pastor of a church - the source does not attribute additional any notability to him. The second source is the North Church website. This is affiliated with Kennedy, so cannot be used to attribute notability. The third source, the Church on the Rocks website, is again affiliated with Kennedy, so cannot allocate notability. The fourth source I have no access to; however, unless it is about Kennedy, it will not give him notability. The fifth source is a link to a site which does not work. The sixth source is, again, affiliated with Kennedy. The seventh source is an article about the Clothe A Child organisation and the involvement of a man called John Hammond. Kennedy's name is mentioned once to establish context - it does not give notability to Kennedy. The eighth source is a local news report about Cloth a Child. Firstly, as a local news report, it is not very deep coverage, so would struggle to meet notability guidelines. In any case, the article is about Clothe A Child, not about Kennedy - Kennedy's name is there, again, just to provide context. The ninth source, again, is affiliated with Kennedy so cannot provide notability. The tenth source, as before, is about Clothe A Child and just mentions Kennedy to provide context. The eleventh source is exactly the same as the eighth, just on a different website. The twelfth source is the strongest provided, but still only mentions Kennedy in passing. The article is not about Kennedy, it is about the event. Kennedy is briefly mentioned on a few occasions because he has a role in it. The notability, if any, if the event's. I cannot access the thirteenth source; see what I put for the fourth. The fourteenth and fifteenth sources are about Chuck Norris. Kennedy is mentioned because he took the wedding of Chuck Norris. If we had articles on ever pastor, priest and vicar who took the weddings of notable people, we'd have thousands of articles about people who's only claim to fame is that. This does not, therefore, constitute notability.
I hope that helps. Feel free to disagree with any of the analysis I've given but, if you do, please reason with me and explain why. I've given you detailed reasoning behind my rejection of each source, so I would like to see the same thought behind any attempts to refute my arguments. If I've made any errors, please let me know. Thanks. ItsZippy( talk • Contributions) 13:47, 7 September 2011 (UTC) reply
The result was delete. The crux of the dispute here seems to boil down to whether or not Church on the Rock is a major religious movement and whether Kennedy is the equivalent of a bishop. Consensus seems to be leaning in the direction that he is not. While Church on the Rock certainly appears to represent a lot of folks, it self-describes as non-denominational, therefore it would seem that comparisons to the Catholic or other major Christian sects power structures are invalid. As an aside I would add that the numerous accusations of bad faith present here have no place in this debate and were not considered when making this close. Beeblebrox ( talk) 19:23, 8 September 2011 (UTC) reply
Article was originally nominated for speedy deletion as it did not contain any non-inherited notability claims. The article creator made an argument on the talk page for notability, so I agreed to remove the speedy and start an AfD. Unfortunately my research has not turned up significant reliable source coverage to establish notability for the article subject. The bulk of the citations on the current article are primary sources linked directly to organizations the subject is involved in, and do not establish notability. Other notability claims include, "He is friends with David Yonggi Cho" and "He is the father of Texas philanthropist and politician Lance Kennedy and a descendant of Republic of Texas politician John J. Kennedy." and "He sits on the board of governors of the S. Daniel Abraham Center of Strategic Dialogue" and that he performed a wedding for Chuck Norris. All of these claims are inherited notability claims (giving the benefit of the doubt that the subjects he is affiliated with are even notable - which is not entirely clear in some cases). I am unable to find significant reliable source coverage to establish the notability of these claims, with the one exception of perhaps being mentioned in Norris' autobiography (but I have not pulled the paper version to verify). Even if that is verified, it still is a rather weak claim of notability unless reported in a reliable secondary source. ConcernedVancouverite ( talk) 17:17, 31 August 2011 (UTC) reply
Weak keep - Some level of notability has been established by the sources provided, but I am undecided as to notaable Kennedy is. I would argue that the article is kept because the sources do seem to giv at least some level of notability. My persona decision could be swayed either way - I'd want to listen to further opinions and see whether any additional sources can be found.
ItsZippy (
talk) 21:23, 31 August 2011 (UTC)
reply
Change to delete - The references do not do enough to me to suggest notability. For notability, Lawrence Kennedy needs to be the primary focus of the source. The ones given mention him in passing - the primary focus is an organisation or another person. If there exists a source which is primarily about Kennedy, then I would vote to keep it. As there is not, it seems he is not notable enough. ItsZippy ( talk) 16:32, 1 September 2011 (UTC) reply
Let me look at each source individually. The first source is just a list of churches. Kennedy is mentioned in passing, as the pastor of a church - the source does not attribute additional any notability to him. The second source is the North Church website. This is affiliated with Kennedy, so cannot be used to attribute notability. The third source, the Church on the Rocks website, is again affiliated with Kennedy, so cannot allocate notability. The fourth source I have no access to; however, unless it is about Kennedy, it will not give him notability. The fifth source is a link to a site which does not work. The sixth source is, again, affiliated with Kennedy. The seventh source is an article about the Clothe A Child organisation and the involvement of a man called John Hammond. Kennedy's name is mentioned once to establish context - it does not give notability to Kennedy. The eighth source is a local news report about Cloth a Child. Firstly, as a local news report, it is not very deep coverage, so would struggle to meet notability guidelines. In any case, the article is about Clothe A Child, not about Kennedy - Kennedy's name is there, again, just to provide context. The ninth source, again, is affiliated with Kennedy so cannot provide notability. The tenth source, as before, is about Clothe A Child and just mentions Kennedy to provide context. The eleventh source is exactly the same as the eighth, just on a different website. The twelfth source is the strongest provided, but still only mentions Kennedy in passing. The article is not about Kennedy, it is about the event. Kennedy is briefly mentioned on a few occasions because he has a role in it. The notability, if any, if the event's. I cannot access the thirteenth source; see what I put for the fourth. The fourteenth and fifteenth sources are about Chuck Norris. Kennedy is mentioned because he took the wedding of Chuck Norris. If we had articles on ever pastor, priest and vicar who took the weddings of notable people, we'd have thousands of articles about people who's only claim to fame is that. This does not, therefore, constitute notability.
I hope that helps. Feel free to disagree with any of the analysis I've given but, if you do, please reason with me and explain why. I've given you detailed reasoning behind my rejection of each source, so I would like to see the same thought behind any attempts to refute my arguments. If I've made any errors, please let me know. Thanks. ItsZippy( talk • Contributions) 13:47, 7 September 2011 (UTC) reply