- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was keep. I see a consensus here to Keep, but clean up, this article. Liz Read! Talk! 07:11, 23 July 2023 (UTC)
[Hide this box] New to Articles for deletion (AfD)? Read these primers!
- Jim Hall (musician) compositions ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log | edits since nomination)
- (Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
Article cites no sources, and does not elaborate on the compositions. There is not enough sourced information on Jim Hall’s compositions, especially as compared to Thelonious Monk and Bill Evans, the only other Modern Jazz composers with a comparable article, to warrant an article Mach61 ( talk) 02:24, 30 June 2023 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Music-related deletion discussions. AllyD ( talk) 05:41, 30 June 2023 (UTC)
- I can see what you're saying about lack of sourced information. But if this article is simply deleted, there will be nothing left to add the sourced information to. Maybe merge it into the Jim Hall article if it is deleted, though I can see objections to that. What is here is information that does not exist elsewhere on Wikipedia, so it adds value. Merge it, tag it in some way to invite more citations, or whatever. But I do not agree that this article should be deleted outright. -- Alan W ( talk) 06:17, 30 June 2023 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Lists-related deletion discussions. Spiderone (Talk to Spider) 19:26, 30 June 2023 (UTC)
- Keep as a valid split from the main article which is notable.. The AllMusic link in the external links verifies a number of the entries in the discogrography section, imv
Atlantic306 (
talk)
22:35, 2 July 2023 (UTC)
- Notability is not inherited, so an individual artist being notable does not necessarily mean their compositions deserve their own list. Note that the aforementioned Monk and Evans had collected books about their compositions, implying nobility on their own, and that no such work exists for Hall. Mach61 ( talk) 01:31, 3 July 2023 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Liz Read! Talk! 03:01, 7 July 2023 (UTC)Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Liz Read! Talk! 05:01, 14 July 2023 (UTC)
- Keep, it's a very common way to split articles, beyond that, it certainly meets WP:NLIST. It's technically not even unsourced, it just doesn't have inline citations, and its sources are buried in the External links section. — siro χ o 11:35, 19 July 2023 (UTC)
- I helped with organization and cleanup of this article a while back when it was created. But I am getting less hopeful about any justification for keeping it in any form. I too thought, well, someone can dig into those External Links and come up with the inline citations. I just looked at those External Sources. Alas, not even this one, "Jim Hall (musician) compositions", really points to any compositions that I can see. If you click on the link, it ends up on an IMDb page with general information about Jim Hall. The other links are even more hopeless. This is very sad. Why do I say that? Because I just found out that the originator and main author of the article is
deceased, as of about five and a half years ago. Now that I see the situation, I wouldn't even know where to begin rescuing this article. Maybe someone else has a better idea. --
Alan W (
talk)
12:43, 19 July 2023 (UTC)
- That is sad. I'll start pointing inline references at AllMusic by album. It may not be comprehensive but we can get a start at least. —
siro
χ
o
10:53, 20 July 2023 (UTC)
- Allmusic listings do not establish notability, which was my concern in nominating the article, not that the compositions couldn't be verified. Considering the previously mentioned lack of writing on Hall's compositions in relative to comparable Jazz artists, it's difficult to argue that they've been "as a group or set by independent reliable sources," the relevant criterion for NLIST. Mach61 ( talk) 17:55, 20 July 2023 (UTC)
- That is sad. I'll start pointing inline references at AllMusic by album. It may not be comprehensive but we can get a start at least. —
siro
χ
o
10:53, 20 July 2023 (UTC)
- I helped with organization and cleanup of this article a while back when it was created. But I am getting less hopeful about any justification for keeping it in any form. I too thought, well, someone can dig into those External Links and come up with the inline citations. I just looked at those External Sources. Alas, not even this one, "Jim Hall (musician) compositions", really points to any compositions that I can see. If you click on the link, it ends up on an IMDb page with general information about Jim Hall. The other links are even more hopeless. This is very sad. Why do I say that? Because I just found out that the originator and main author of the article is
deceased, as of about five and a half years ago. Now that I see the situation, I wouldn't even know where to begin rescuing this article. Maybe someone else has a better idea. --
Alan W (
talk)
12:43, 19 July 2023 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: Final relist.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Liz Read! Talk! 06:03, 21 July 2023 (UTC)
- Keep per Siroxo. It's probably worth quoting the full relevant sentence in NLIST:
One accepted reason why a list topic is considered notable is if it has been discussed as a group or set by independent reliable sources, per the above guidelines.
So an expressly non-exclusive criterion. The widespread practice of creating such lists suggests that, if they indeed do not qualify under the "discussed as a group" criterion, there is at least a working editorial consensus that such lists represent anotheraccepted reason
. But I don't think we need to go that far in this case. The Jim Hall (musician) article cites sources that discuss Hall's composing style, which is necessarily a discussion of his compositionsas a group or set
, meeting NLIST. (Might be nice to import some of that material to this currently leadless list.) If an individual X is verifiably notable for creating works of type Y, then it would IMO be fairly exceptional if a "List of Ys by X" did not meet the discussed-as-a-group criterion of NLIST, and I don't see any reason to consider this to be such an exception. -- Visviva ( talk) 16:05, 22 July 2023 (UTC) - Keep. I was on the fence, given the sketchiness of the few sources given, only External Links, and not much there about the compositions. But I looked back at the Jim Hall article again, and this sentence did it for me: "In 1997, Hall received the New York Jazz Critics Award for Best Jazz Composer/Arranger." To me his notability as a composer, which is now clearer to me (I always loved Hall as a guitarist but, frankly, had no idea he was so respected as a composer), justifies keeping the material in this article. Maybe merge it into the Jim Hall article, maybe, if enough can be fleshed out with more sources, keep it as is. But let's not throw this material away. Hall was a notable jazz composer. -- Alan W ( talk) 22:57, 22 July 2023 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was keep. I see a consensus here to Keep, but clean up, this article. Liz Read! Talk! 07:11, 23 July 2023 (UTC)
[Hide this box] New to Articles for deletion (AfD)? Read these primers!
- Jim Hall (musician) compositions ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log | edits since nomination)
- (Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
Article cites no sources, and does not elaborate on the compositions. There is not enough sourced information on Jim Hall’s compositions, especially as compared to Thelonious Monk and Bill Evans, the only other Modern Jazz composers with a comparable article, to warrant an article Mach61 ( talk) 02:24, 30 June 2023 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Music-related deletion discussions. AllyD ( talk) 05:41, 30 June 2023 (UTC)
- I can see what you're saying about lack of sourced information. But if this article is simply deleted, there will be nothing left to add the sourced information to. Maybe merge it into the Jim Hall article if it is deleted, though I can see objections to that. What is here is information that does not exist elsewhere on Wikipedia, so it adds value. Merge it, tag it in some way to invite more citations, or whatever. But I do not agree that this article should be deleted outright. -- Alan W ( talk) 06:17, 30 June 2023 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Lists-related deletion discussions. Spiderone (Talk to Spider) 19:26, 30 June 2023 (UTC)
- Keep as a valid split from the main article which is notable.. The AllMusic link in the external links verifies a number of the entries in the discogrography section, imv
Atlantic306 (
talk)
22:35, 2 July 2023 (UTC)
- Notability is not inherited, so an individual artist being notable does not necessarily mean their compositions deserve their own list. Note that the aforementioned Monk and Evans had collected books about their compositions, implying nobility on their own, and that no such work exists for Hall. Mach61 ( talk) 01:31, 3 July 2023 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Liz Read! Talk! 03:01, 7 July 2023 (UTC)Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Liz Read! Talk! 05:01, 14 July 2023 (UTC)
- Keep, it's a very common way to split articles, beyond that, it certainly meets WP:NLIST. It's technically not even unsourced, it just doesn't have inline citations, and its sources are buried in the External links section. — siro χ o 11:35, 19 July 2023 (UTC)
- I helped with organization and cleanup of this article a while back when it was created. But I am getting less hopeful about any justification for keeping it in any form. I too thought, well, someone can dig into those External Links and come up with the inline citations. I just looked at those External Sources. Alas, not even this one, "Jim Hall (musician) compositions", really points to any compositions that I can see. If you click on the link, it ends up on an IMDb page with general information about Jim Hall. The other links are even more hopeless. This is very sad. Why do I say that? Because I just found out that the originator and main author of the article is
deceased, as of about five and a half years ago. Now that I see the situation, I wouldn't even know where to begin rescuing this article. Maybe someone else has a better idea. --
Alan W (
talk)
12:43, 19 July 2023 (UTC)
- That is sad. I'll start pointing inline references at AllMusic by album. It may not be comprehensive but we can get a start at least. —
siro
χ
o
10:53, 20 July 2023 (UTC)
- Allmusic listings do not establish notability, which was my concern in nominating the article, not that the compositions couldn't be verified. Considering the previously mentioned lack of writing on Hall's compositions in relative to comparable Jazz artists, it's difficult to argue that they've been "as a group or set by independent reliable sources," the relevant criterion for NLIST. Mach61 ( talk) 17:55, 20 July 2023 (UTC)
- That is sad. I'll start pointing inline references at AllMusic by album. It may not be comprehensive but we can get a start at least. —
siro
χ
o
10:53, 20 July 2023 (UTC)
- I helped with organization and cleanup of this article a while back when it was created. But I am getting less hopeful about any justification for keeping it in any form. I too thought, well, someone can dig into those External Links and come up with the inline citations. I just looked at those External Sources. Alas, not even this one, "Jim Hall (musician) compositions", really points to any compositions that I can see. If you click on the link, it ends up on an IMDb page with general information about Jim Hall. The other links are even more hopeless. This is very sad. Why do I say that? Because I just found out that the originator and main author of the article is
deceased, as of about five and a half years ago. Now that I see the situation, I wouldn't even know where to begin rescuing this article. Maybe someone else has a better idea. --
Alan W (
talk)
12:43, 19 July 2023 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: Final relist.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Liz Read! Talk! 06:03, 21 July 2023 (UTC)
- Keep per Siroxo. It's probably worth quoting the full relevant sentence in NLIST:
One accepted reason why a list topic is considered notable is if it has been discussed as a group or set by independent reliable sources, per the above guidelines.
So an expressly non-exclusive criterion. The widespread practice of creating such lists suggests that, if they indeed do not qualify under the "discussed as a group" criterion, there is at least a working editorial consensus that such lists represent anotheraccepted reason
. But I don't think we need to go that far in this case. The Jim Hall (musician) article cites sources that discuss Hall's composing style, which is necessarily a discussion of his compositionsas a group or set
, meeting NLIST. (Might be nice to import some of that material to this currently leadless list.) If an individual X is verifiably notable for creating works of type Y, then it would IMO be fairly exceptional if a "List of Ys by X" did not meet the discussed-as-a-group criterion of NLIST, and I don't see any reason to consider this to be such an exception. -- Visviva ( talk) 16:05, 22 July 2023 (UTC) - Keep. I was on the fence, given the sketchiness of the few sources given, only External Links, and not much there about the compositions. But I looked back at the Jim Hall article again, and this sentence did it for me: "In 1997, Hall received the New York Jazz Critics Award for Best Jazz Composer/Arranger." To me his notability as a composer, which is now clearer to me (I always loved Hall as a guitarist but, frankly, had no idea he was so respected as a composer), justifies keeping the material in this article. Maybe merge it into the Jim Hall article, maybe, if enough can be fleshed out with more sources, keep it as is. But let's not throw this material away. Hall was a notable jazz composer. -- Alan W ( talk) 22:57, 22 July 2023 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.