- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was redirect to Mountain Party#State elections. Seraphimblade Talk to me 22:52, 25 April 2023 (UTC)
Jesse Johnson (West Virginia politician)
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- Jesse Johnson (West Virginia politician) ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log | edits since nomination)
- (Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
Non-notable perennial third party candidate. SecretName101 ( talk) 07:24, 10 April 2023 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: People, Politicians, United States of America, and West Virginia. SecretName101 ( talk) 07:24, 10 April 2023 (UTC)
- Speedy keep there is no deletion rationale presented. Being a multi-time candidate is not a reason to delete an article. Moreover, the nominator hasn't done the necessary work
WP:BEFORE nominating this article, as there are multiple published independent sources on Johnson such as
[1], and
[2].--
User:Namiba
17:36, 10 April 2023 (UTC)
- @ Namiba Lack of notability is the reason for deletion. Wikipedia:POLITICIAN does not assign him notability. Perennial candidate for significant offices will have plentiful published independent sources that cover them. But being mentioned in such sources does not itself does not itself assign notability. You have to assess what those articles say about it and if the facts they assert about the individual assign them note.
- "candidate is running" "candidate exists" articles are not sufficient to establish notability. Elections they run in might even be of note, but that does not mean the candidates themselves are, or that it is justified to provide them anything more than a description/mention within the articles for the elections themselves.
- A great many non-notable subjects get covered every day by independent sources. The existence of independent sources does not establish notability. What is covered within those sources must be assessed.
- This is a run-of-the-mill non-notable perennial candidate who does not justify and independent article. SecretName101 ( talk) 19:14, 10 April 2023 (UTC)
- @ Namiba also please read. Your assertion that there is no deletion rationale completely ignores that the first two words of the nomination cite lack of notability, which is indeed a very clear deletion rationale. SecretName101 ( talk) 22:28, 10 April 2023 (UTC)
Comment: I would suggest that any verifiable information about his candidacies mentioned here be transplanted to the articles about the elections themselves if they are worth adding there and not already present.
SecretName101 (
talk)
19:16, 10 April 2023 (UTC)
- Claiming someone is "non-notable" is not citing Wikipedia policy on notability. Being a perennial candidate is also not a valid reason to delete an article, if they have receive noteworthy coverage. If you looked for said coverage before nominating, you would have found it:
HuffPost,
Living On Earth,
Herald-Dispatch.--
User:Namiba
11:12, 11 April 2023 (UTC)
- @
Namiba "Candidate exists" is not notable coverage.
WP:Politician "Just being an elected local official, or an unelected candidate for political office, does not guarantee notability".
SecretName101 (
talk)
00:56, 14 April 2023 (UTC)
- Huffington Post and Living on Earth are both national publications which certainly do not cover every candidate in-depth, much less every Green Party candidate. The Herald Dispatch article is in-depth, independent sourcing as well. You should probably read the sources before continuing to minimize the positions of anyone who disagrees with you. More words doesn't make you right.-- User:Namiba 01:17, 14 April 2023 (UTC)
- @
Namiba "Candidate exists" is not notable coverage.
WP:Politician "Just being an elected local official, or an unelected candidate for political office, does not guarantee notability".
SecretName101 (
talk)
00:56, 14 April 2023 (UTC)
- Claiming someone is "non-notable" is not citing Wikipedia policy on notability. Being a perennial candidate is also not a valid reason to delete an article, if they have receive noteworthy coverage. If you looked for said coverage before nominating, you would have found it:
HuffPost,
Living On Earth,
Herald-Dispatch.--
User:Namiba
11:12, 11 April 2023 (UTC)
- Keep. My first thought was, "who?", and I certainly understand why many West Virginians—including myself—have never heard of him, or at best heard him mentioned briefly as an also-ran who was quickly forgotten. Being endorsed by a minor political figure from somewhere else in the country isn't that helpful, although Ken Hechler's endorsement is a bit more so in West Virginia. Clearly Johnson doesn't appear to be a major political force in the state. But all that said, he was the nominee of West Virginia's only significant third party on multiple occasions. And I don't think the bar for demonstrating notability is particularly high. I think this person meets our minimum criteria for notability.
P Aculeius (
talk)
13:50, 11 April 2023 (UTC)
- @
P Aculeius you outlined really good points for failure to meet notability, actually.
WP:Politician notability is not met. "Just being an elected local official, or an unelected candidate for political office, does not guarantee notability". Being a Green Party nominee for those offices is not inherently notable.
SecretName101 (
talk)
19:23, 12 April 2023 (UTC)
- That's your opinion; it's not mine. And arguing with everyone whose opinion differs from yours doesn't invalidate their opinions. P Aculeius ( talk) 03:50, 13 April 2023 (UTC)
- @
P Aculeius you outlined really good points for failure to meet notability, actually.
WP:Politician notability is not met. "Just being an elected local official, or an unelected candidate for political office, does not guarantee notability". Being a Green Party nominee for those offices is not inherently notable.
SecretName101 (
talk)
19:23, 12 April 2023 (UTC)
- Weak delete. I think if the article can be framed in terms of any sort of ballot access cases or firsts, a case could be made. I made this point at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Bill Redpath, but to no avail. Mpen320 ( talk) 12:52, 13 April 2023 (UTC)
- Delete Routine campaign coverage typically does not establish notability to pass WP:NPOL. Losing multiple elections does not warrant an article, even if there were typical mentions of their presence in the race, and I don't see this ordinary coverage reaching significance needed for an article for a minor perennial candidate. The first link by Namiba above does not have any biographical coverage but simply mentions the possibility of being a spoiler in 2010 United States Senate special election in West Virginia (that's a good redirect option, but getting less than 2% of the vote doesn't earn you an article) and the second is an routine interview they did of everyone on the ballot, which is not independent coverage. Reywas92 Talk 14:34, 14 April 2023 (UTC)
- Redirect to
2010 United States Senate special election in West Virginia#General electionMountain Party#State elections as a viable ATD. Per nom, Mpen320, and Reywas92, the coverage (including the citations presented in this discussion) fall short of the RS-based significant coverage (aside from run-of-the-mill campaign coverage) needed to meet the criteria of either WP:NPOL or WP:GNG. Sal2100 ( talk) 15:58, 14 April 2023 (UTC)- @
Sal2100 May I recommend as an alternative redirect target
Mountain Party. I think that that is better than selecting just one of his elections to redirect to.
SecretName101 (
talk)
19:37, 14 April 2023 (UTC)
- @ SecretName101: I agree that that would be a better page to redirect to, and have amended my comment above accordingly. Sal2100 ( talk) 19:50, 14 April 2023 (UTC)
- @
Sal2100 May I recommend as an alternative redirect target
Mountain Party. I think that that is better than selecting just one of his elections to redirect to.
SecretName101 (
talk)
19:37, 14 April 2023 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, CycloneYoris talk! 20:58, 17 April 2023 (UTC)
- Merge selectively as suggested. Perennial candidates can be notable if, and even because, they run many times.
Bearian (
talk)
13:55, 20 April 2023 (UTC)
- @ Bearian yes, I definitely agree that perennial candidates can garner notability through their runs. I have even created new articles on perennial candidates, and actually have the start of a draft for another such article saved on my Google Docs account for later work. I just believe that this particular perennial candidate falls below the threshold, as you evidently also do as indicated by your support for a merge. SecretName101 ( talk) 20:48, 25 April 2023 (UTC)
- Delete BLP, fails GNG and BIO. Source eval:
- Primary, promo, taken from "Jesse for Governor website" >> 1. "Jesse Johnson - WV Mountain Party". Archived from the original on 2012-02-11. Retrieved 2008-04-15.
- Promo from their election committee >> 2. ^ Committee to Elect Jesse Johnson Archived 2008-05-09 at the Wayback Machine
- Stats >> 3. ^ 2008 presidential ballots, Green Party, archived at the Wayback Machine, November 26, 2008.
- Routine endorsement news >> 4. ^ "Sierra Club endorses Jesse Johnson for WV Governor" Archived 2009-01-05 at the Wayback Machine, Green Party Watch, October 6, 2008.
- Stats >> 5. ^ Statewide Results, West Virginia Secretary of State Election Results Center, archived at the Wayback Machine, November 26, 2008.
- Routine endorsement news >> 6. ^ Associated Press, "Hechler endorses Johnson in W.Va. senate race", Marietta Times, September 9, 2010, at Green Senatorial Campaign Committee, archived at the Wayback Machine, July 26, 2011.
- Stats >> 7. ^ WV Governor, Our Campaigns, retrieved July 11, 2016.
- BEFORE showed promo intervews, nothing meeting IS RS with SIGCOV addressing with subject directly and indepth. WP:BLP states "Be very firm about the use of high-quality sources"'; BLPs need IS RS with SIGCOV addressing the subject directly and indepth for both content and notability per well known core policy ( WP:V and WP:BLP) and guidelines ( WP:BIO and WP:IS, WP:RS, WP:SIGCOV).
BEFORE showed nothing that meets SIGCOV, game news, database, promo.
- No objection to a consensus REDIRECT after deletion to remove BLP violations. //
Timothy ::
talk
01:59, 22 April 2023 (UTC)
- Note I've added the Huffington Post, Truth Dig, and Living on Earth references to the article. Standard perennial local candidates do not coverage like this.-- User:Namiba 12:36, 22 April 2023 (UTC)
- Keep - We should have a very low bar for public figures. As a statewide candidate for governor of WV in 2004 who garnered a not-insignificant 2.5% of the vote, this is one. For those of you looking to cross your Ts and dot your Is with GNG, take
[3] piece in the Beckley [WV] Register-Herald, "U.S. Senate Candidate Conversations — Jesse Johnson." Or [Gubernatorial candidate profiles: Mountain Party’s Jesse Johnson|THIS PIECE] from the same publication in 2014, "Gubernatorial candidate profiles: Mountain Party’s Jesse Johnson." GNG pass as well as a logical keep for a comprehensive encyclopedia such as WP.
Carrite (
talk)
16:41, 22 April 2023 (UTC)
- The bar for BLPs is clear: WP:BLP states "Be very firm about the use of high-quality sources"'; BLPs need IS RS with SIGCOV addressing the subject directly and indepth for both content and notability per well known core policy ( WP:V and WP:BLP) and guidelines ( WP:BIO and WP:IS, WP:RS, WP:SIGCOV). // Timothy :: talk 16:53, 24 April 2023 (UTC)
- Redirect and merge as appropriate to Mountain Party#State elections. In general, Wikipedia is not a repository of campaign brochures and the community makes no effort to provide equal coverage to candidates running for public office ( my thoughts about the notability of candidates). The standard for a candidate who does not already hold a position that passes WP:NPOL is GNG - with a strong emphasis on coverage that rises above routine coverage about the election (and usually involves national or international coverage). I do not see this level of coverage here. -- Enos733 ( talk) 17:00, 23 April 2023 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was redirect to Mountain Party#State elections. Seraphimblade Talk to me 22:52, 25 April 2023 (UTC)
Jesse Johnson (West Virginia politician)
[Hide this box] New to Articles for deletion (AfD)? Read these primers!
- Jesse Johnson (West Virginia politician) ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log | edits since nomination)
- (Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
Non-notable perennial third party candidate. SecretName101 ( talk) 07:24, 10 April 2023 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: People, Politicians, United States of America, and West Virginia. SecretName101 ( talk) 07:24, 10 April 2023 (UTC)
- Speedy keep there is no deletion rationale presented. Being a multi-time candidate is not a reason to delete an article. Moreover, the nominator hasn't done the necessary work
WP:BEFORE nominating this article, as there are multiple published independent sources on Johnson such as
[1], and
[2].--
User:Namiba
17:36, 10 April 2023 (UTC)
- @ Namiba Lack of notability is the reason for deletion. Wikipedia:POLITICIAN does not assign him notability. Perennial candidate for significant offices will have plentiful published independent sources that cover them. But being mentioned in such sources does not itself does not itself assign notability. You have to assess what those articles say about it and if the facts they assert about the individual assign them note.
- "candidate is running" "candidate exists" articles are not sufficient to establish notability. Elections they run in might even be of note, but that does not mean the candidates themselves are, or that it is justified to provide them anything more than a description/mention within the articles for the elections themselves.
- A great many non-notable subjects get covered every day by independent sources. The existence of independent sources does not establish notability. What is covered within those sources must be assessed.
- This is a run-of-the-mill non-notable perennial candidate who does not justify and independent article. SecretName101 ( talk) 19:14, 10 April 2023 (UTC)
- @ Namiba also please read. Your assertion that there is no deletion rationale completely ignores that the first two words of the nomination cite lack of notability, which is indeed a very clear deletion rationale. SecretName101 ( talk) 22:28, 10 April 2023 (UTC)
Comment: I would suggest that any verifiable information about his candidacies mentioned here be transplanted to the articles about the elections themselves if they are worth adding there and not already present.
SecretName101 (
talk)
19:16, 10 April 2023 (UTC)
- Claiming someone is "non-notable" is not citing Wikipedia policy on notability. Being a perennial candidate is also not a valid reason to delete an article, if they have receive noteworthy coverage. If you looked for said coverage before nominating, you would have found it:
HuffPost,
Living On Earth,
Herald-Dispatch.--
User:Namiba
11:12, 11 April 2023 (UTC)
- @
Namiba "Candidate exists" is not notable coverage.
WP:Politician "Just being an elected local official, or an unelected candidate for political office, does not guarantee notability".
SecretName101 (
talk)
00:56, 14 April 2023 (UTC)
- Huffington Post and Living on Earth are both national publications which certainly do not cover every candidate in-depth, much less every Green Party candidate. The Herald Dispatch article is in-depth, independent sourcing as well. You should probably read the sources before continuing to minimize the positions of anyone who disagrees with you. More words doesn't make you right.-- User:Namiba 01:17, 14 April 2023 (UTC)
- @
Namiba "Candidate exists" is not notable coverage.
WP:Politician "Just being an elected local official, or an unelected candidate for political office, does not guarantee notability".
SecretName101 (
talk)
00:56, 14 April 2023 (UTC)
- Claiming someone is "non-notable" is not citing Wikipedia policy on notability. Being a perennial candidate is also not a valid reason to delete an article, if they have receive noteworthy coverage. If you looked for said coverage before nominating, you would have found it:
HuffPost,
Living On Earth,
Herald-Dispatch.--
User:Namiba
11:12, 11 April 2023 (UTC)
- Keep. My first thought was, "who?", and I certainly understand why many West Virginians—including myself—have never heard of him, or at best heard him mentioned briefly as an also-ran who was quickly forgotten. Being endorsed by a minor political figure from somewhere else in the country isn't that helpful, although Ken Hechler's endorsement is a bit more so in West Virginia. Clearly Johnson doesn't appear to be a major political force in the state. But all that said, he was the nominee of West Virginia's only significant third party on multiple occasions. And I don't think the bar for demonstrating notability is particularly high. I think this person meets our minimum criteria for notability.
P Aculeius (
talk)
13:50, 11 April 2023 (UTC)
- @
P Aculeius you outlined really good points for failure to meet notability, actually.
WP:Politician notability is not met. "Just being an elected local official, or an unelected candidate for political office, does not guarantee notability". Being a Green Party nominee for those offices is not inherently notable.
SecretName101 (
talk)
19:23, 12 April 2023 (UTC)
- That's your opinion; it's not mine. And arguing with everyone whose opinion differs from yours doesn't invalidate their opinions. P Aculeius ( talk) 03:50, 13 April 2023 (UTC)
- @
P Aculeius you outlined really good points for failure to meet notability, actually.
WP:Politician notability is not met. "Just being an elected local official, or an unelected candidate for political office, does not guarantee notability". Being a Green Party nominee for those offices is not inherently notable.
SecretName101 (
talk)
19:23, 12 April 2023 (UTC)
- Weak delete. I think if the article can be framed in terms of any sort of ballot access cases or firsts, a case could be made. I made this point at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Bill Redpath, but to no avail. Mpen320 ( talk) 12:52, 13 April 2023 (UTC)
- Delete Routine campaign coverage typically does not establish notability to pass WP:NPOL. Losing multiple elections does not warrant an article, even if there were typical mentions of their presence in the race, and I don't see this ordinary coverage reaching significance needed for an article for a minor perennial candidate. The first link by Namiba above does not have any biographical coverage but simply mentions the possibility of being a spoiler in 2010 United States Senate special election in West Virginia (that's a good redirect option, but getting less than 2% of the vote doesn't earn you an article) and the second is an routine interview they did of everyone on the ballot, which is not independent coverage. Reywas92 Talk 14:34, 14 April 2023 (UTC)
- Redirect to
2010 United States Senate special election in West Virginia#General electionMountain Party#State elections as a viable ATD. Per nom, Mpen320, and Reywas92, the coverage (including the citations presented in this discussion) fall short of the RS-based significant coverage (aside from run-of-the-mill campaign coverage) needed to meet the criteria of either WP:NPOL or WP:GNG. Sal2100 ( talk) 15:58, 14 April 2023 (UTC)- @
Sal2100 May I recommend as an alternative redirect target
Mountain Party. I think that that is better than selecting just one of his elections to redirect to.
SecretName101 (
talk)
19:37, 14 April 2023 (UTC)
- @ SecretName101: I agree that that would be a better page to redirect to, and have amended my comment above accordingly. Sal2100 ( talk) 19:50, 14 April 2023 (UTC)
- @
Sal2100 May I recommend as an alternative redirect target
Mountain Party. I think that that is better than selecting just one of his elections to redirect to.
SecretName101 (
talk)
19:37, 14 April 2023 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, CycloneYoris talk! 20:58, 17 April 2023 (UTC)
- Merge selectively as suggested. Perennial candidates can be notable if, and even because, they run many times.
Bearian (
talk)
13:55, 20 April 2023 (UTC)
- @ Bearian yes, I definitely agree that perennial candidates can garner notability through their runs. I have even created new articles on perennial candidates, and actually have the start of a draft for another such article saved on my Google Docs account for later work. I just believe that this particular perennial candidate falls below the threshold, as you evidently also do as indicated by your support for a merge. SecretName101 ( talk) 20:48, 25 April 2023 (UTC)
- Delete BLP, fails GNG and BIO. Source eval:
- Primary, promo, taken from "Jesse for Governor website" >> 1. "Jesse Johnson - WV Mountain Party". Archived from the original on 2012-02-11. Retrieved 2008-04-15.
- Promo from their election committee >> 2. ^ Committee to Elect Jesse Johnson Archived 2008-05-09 at the Wayback Machine
- Stats >> 3. ^ 2008 presidential ballots, Green Party, archived at the Wayback Machine, November 26, 2008.
- Routine endorsement news >> 4. ^ "Sierra Club endorses Jesse Johnson for WV Governor" Archived 2009-01-05 at the Wayback Machine, Green Party Watch, October 6, 2008.
- Stats >> 5. ^ Statewide Results, West Virginia Secretary of State Election Results Center, archived at the Wayback Machine, November 26, 2008.
- Routine endorsement news >> 6. ^ Associated Press, "Hechler endorses Johnson in W.Va. senate race", Marietta Times, September 9, 2010, at Green Senatorial Campaign Committee, archived at the Wayback Machine, July 26, 2011.
- Stats >> 7. ^ WV Governor, Our Campaigns, retrieved July 11, 2016.
- BEFORE showed promo intervews, nothing meeting IS RS with SIGCOV addressing with subject directly and indepth. WP:BLP states "Be very firm about the use of high-quality sources"'; BLPs need IS RS with SIGCOV addressing the subject directly and indepth for both content and notability per well known core policy ( WP:V and WP:BLP) and guidelines ( WP:BIO and WP:IS, WP:RS, WP:SIGCOV).
BEFORE showed nothing that meets SIGCOV, game news, database, promo.
- No objection to a consensus REDIRECT after deletion to remove BLP violations. //
Timothy ::
talk
01:59, 22 April 2023 (UTC)
- Note I've added the Huffington Post, Truth Dig, and Living on Earth references to the article. Standard perennial local candidates do not coverage like this.-- User:Namiba 12:36, 22 April 2023 (UTC)
- Keep - We should have a very low bar for public figures. As a statewide candidate for governor of WV in 2004 who garnered a not-insignificant 2.5% of the vote, this is one. For those of you looking to cross your Ts and dot your Is with GNG, take
[3] piece in the Beckley [WV] Register-Herald, "U.S. Senate Candidate Conversations — Jesse Johnson." Or [Gubernatorial candidate profiles: Mountain Party’s Jesse Johnson|THIS PIECE] from the same publication in 2014, "Gubernatorial candidate profiles: Mountain Party’s Jesse Johnson." GNG pass as well as a logical keep for a comprehensive encyclopedia such as WP.
Carrite (
talk)
16:41, 22 April 2023 (UTC)
- The bar for BLPs is clear: WP:BLP states "Be very firm about the use of high-quality sources"'; BLPs need IS RS with SIGCOV addressing the subject directly and indepth for both content and notability per well known core policy ( WP:V and WP:BLP) and guidelines ( WP:BIO and WP:IS, WP:RS, WP:SIGCOV). // Timothy :: talk 16:53, 24 April 2023 (UTC)
- Redirect and merge as appropriate to Mountain Party#State elections. In general, Wikipedia is not a repository of campaign brochures and the community makes no effort to provide equal coverage to candidates running for public office ( my thoughts about the notability of candidates). The standard for a candidate who does not already hold a position that passes WP:NPOL is GNG - with a strong emphasis on coverage that rises above routine coverage about the election (and usually involves national or international coverage). I do not see this level of coverage here. -- Enos733 ( talk) 17:00, 23 April 2023 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.