The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus. Ok, first off I've opted to ignore all the SPAs, also because most of their arguments do not address any point about our definition of notability, or make unsupported assertions. I also think that some comments here ("self promoter") are unnecessary and jerkish for an AfD.

Now on the actual notability issue, there seems to be some disagreement on whether some sources suffice to establish GNG notability. With some - BBC and car crash news - the delete argument seems to be stronger but with others - The Christian Post - I don't see a clear cut consensus. Since the notability of the topic hinges on the sufficiency of these sources, a "no consensus" outcome seems appropriate. A previous AfD ended up deleting the topic, but "consensus can change" as they say. Jo-Jo Eumerus ( talk, contributions) 19:25, 24 September 2017 (UTC) reply

Jared Andre Sawyer Jr.

Jared Andre Sawyer Jr. (  | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log · Stats)

(Find sources:  Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)

Fails WP:NBIO. Found no sources using Google search, even on Google news. GeoffreyT2000 ^{( talk, contribs)} 04:00, 4 September 2017 (UTC) reply

If you came here because someone asked you to, or you read a message on another website, please note that this is not a majority vote, but instead a discussion among Wikipedia contributors. Wikipedia has policies and guidelines regarding the encyclopedia's content, and consensus (agreement) is gauged based on the merits of the arguments, not by counting votes. However, you are invited to participate and your opinion is welcome. Remember to assume good faith on the part of others and to sign your posts on this page by adding ~~~~ at the end. Note: Comments may be tagged as follows: suspected single-purpose accounts: {{subst: spa|username}}; suspected canvassed users: {{subst: canvassed|username}}; accounts blocked for sockpuppetry: {{subst: csm|username}} or {{subst: csp|username}}.

• Note that Nom searched "Jared Andre Sawyer Jr."; "Jared Sawyer Jr." gets hits on a gNews search, and more hits on a proquest news archives search. E.M.Gregory ( talk) 18:25, 18 September 2017 (UTC) E.M.Gregory ( talk) 18:23, 18 September 2017 (UTC) reply

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Actors and filmmakers-related deletion discussions. CAPTAIN RAJU ^(T) 07:50, 4 September 2017 (UTC) reply

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Georgia (U.S. state)-related deletion discussions. CAPTAIN RAJU ^(T) 07:52, 4 September 2017 (UTC) reply

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Authors-related deletion discussions. CAPTAIN RAJU ^(T) 07:52, 4 September 2017 (UTC) reply

• Keep He has over 3 million views on YouTube, about 300K followers on social media and a good number of reliable sources because a lot of people want to know more about him. - YouTube is the world — Preceding unsigned comment added by Creativeworld76 ( talk • contribs) 08:12, 11 September 2017 (UTC) reply

— Creativeworld76 ( talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

• Keep - He was a prodigy and seems as though he's still a major influencer. He's clearly a leader in conversation around religion, politics, and philosophy. comment added by Paooola.mahe ( talk • contribs) —Preceding undated comment added 17:50, 11 September 2017 (UTC) reply

— Paooola.mahe ( talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

• Keep - After a google search, he was in a car accident that seemed to gain extensive media attention, including but not limited to BET, Atlanta Journal Constitution, Joy 105, and local Atlanta stations from just one post on his social media. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Leon729 ( talk • contribs) 08:02, 13 September 2017 (UTC) reply

— Leon729 ( talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

• Keep - Article topic was named 200 Most Influential authors of 2016 by Richtopia. Additionally, the article's content asserts importance and significance for the topic. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ross724 ( talk • contribs) 16:46, 14 September 2017 (UTC) reply

— Ross724 ( talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

• Delete This is a vanity page. The sources are either vanity pieces or fluff. It's interesting that he caused controversy for being ordained at such a young age, but it has not garnered enough non-routine coverage to merit an article. YouTube views are not a criteria for notability. The brief mentions about the car accident are not enough to convince me that the subject is notable. Walter Görlitz ( talk) 17:19, 14 September 2017 (UTC) reply
  • I was wondering why this newly created article appeared in my watch list and discovered that it was a recreation of an article previously deleted via AfD: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Jared Sawyer Jr but it was moved after recreation. I'll ping those who commented on that AfD just in case: @ SwisterTwister: @ StAnselm: @ Peterkingiron: @ E.M.Gregory: @ Aoba47: Walter Görlitz ( talk) 00:57, 15 September 2017 (UTC) reply
• Delete per Walter Görlitz as I agree with their point of view. I stand by my previous comments in the previous AfD. Aoba47 ( talk) 01:21, 15 September 2017 (UTC) reply
• Keep(struck as duplicate !vote) I'd think someone who has a supporting role in a feature film releasing next year with Taraji P. Henson is pretty notable. The movie page is disambiguated so right now. Additionally, there are some google references for his appearances in Tyler Perry films. He's apparently a familiar face and notable. Ross724 15:37, 15 September 2017 (UTC) reply

— Ross724 ( talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

• Delete - This is a vanity page, as described above. Shelbystripes ( talk) 22:49, 16 September 2017 (UTC) reply

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Christianity-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k ( talk) 03:32, 17 September 2017 (UTC) reply

(Find sources:  Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)

• Keep Ignoring the likely meatpuppeting, this guy appears legitimately notable, even if a bit borderline at this time. The NAACP award and Christian Post articles are the two that anchor GNG compliance in my mind--others aren't as good of sources, but aren't solely vanity, either. The above delete !voters need to check the sources a bit more closely before just dismissing this as a vanity page: promotional language can be fixed by regular editing. Jclemens ( talk) 03:50, 17 September 2017 (UTC) reply
  • Ok, forget borderline, he made the BBC. Jclemens ( talk) 04:01, 17 September 2017 (UTC) reply
    • That article merely has a picture of him as "another child preacher", the text doesn't discuss him at all. power~enwiki ( π, ν) 05:22, 17 September 2017 (UTC) reply

• Delete The article is clearly promotional in nature, and it's likely WP:TOOSOON. This is a 20-year old, and it's unclear to me why/how he is notable: as an actor, an author, or a member of the clergy? References like [1] don't lead me to believe he meets WP:GNG at this time. power~enwiki ( π, ν) 05:22, 17 September 2017 (UTC) reply
  • He has the most GNG coverage as a member of the clergy, which is international, mainstream, and has continued over years. I don't see RS'es covering his acting yet. Jclemens ( talk) 05:31, 17 September 2017 (UTC) reply
    • WP:CLERGY is phrased in a way that doesn't really apply to BLPs, especially BLPs of people this young. I do agree this is a borderline case, but I still feel it's WP:TOOSOON. power~enwiki ( π, ν) 06:42, 17 September 2017 (UTC) reply
      • I agree that he does not meet WP:CLERGY or have presumptive notability in any such manner. However, clergy members can meet GNG through routine means, and that seems to best apply here, as his coverage is clearly scattered: both the Christian Post and AJC articles cover him as a child preacher, now growing up into a college student. Jclemens ( talk) 17:30, 19 September 2017 (UTC) reply
• Keep Got significant publicity as a child preacher. He is now an undergrad at Morehouse College, in Atlanta and was recently injured in a traffic accident. Few accident victims get news coverage like Teen author, Morehouse student recovering after crash, in the Atlanta Journal Constitution, [2]. That story revisits the child-star coverage and strongly supports notability. As do his film credits [3], although these small are not by themselves sufficient to pass WP:ACTOR. I am concerned about the fact that the article asserts that he is ministering at an importantGreater Piney Grove Baptist Church, but the Church's website does not list him on the staff page [4]. E.M.Gregory ( talk) 18:20, 18 September 2017 (UTC) reply
• Delete per Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Jared Andre' Sawyer Jr, this should have been G4 eligible, but it was created under a slightly different title. No, this kid is not notable. He is a young cleric who is trying to promote himself. The BBC is just a picture of him, and the Christian Post article is a fluff human interest piece (and no, I'm not arguing that because its a Christian publication: I have a pretty strong record in arguing for counting religious publications towards GNG in AfDs, this one is just literally nothing more than you'd expect to see on local TV). NAACP award isn't at the level required for ANYBIO. No reason to keep this article. TonyBallioni ( talk) 18:28, 18 September 2017 (UTC) reply

• Here is the Christian Post article [5] Tony refers to, a reported article in a WP:RS for sourcing a bio. One man's fluff is another man's reporting on a modern example of an issue that has roiled protestant waters for 500 years; and Christian waters since the year 1. E.M.Gregory ( talk) 21:01, 18 September 2017 (UTC) reply

• Yes, and that article is not an analysis of the complicated theological questions. Its a fluff piece about a kid. You didn't think that it alone raised him to the level of notability 10 months ago, and nothing has changed since then. TonyBallioni ( talk) 01:38, 19 September 2017 (UTC) reply
  • Where is the policy or guideline that says an article about a preacher has to delve into his theology? It's a detailed piece by major topical press, and you're arguing it doesn't go into the minutiae of the topic sufficiently? Jclemens ( talk) 17:24, 19 September 2017 (UTC) reply

• No, I'm saying its not substantial coverage that we would accept in any BLP AfD as establishing notability, and that the response above was trying to portray it as a commentary of how this subject fits in to a centuries-long intellectual struggle within Protestantism, and one that has taken place over millennia within Christianity as a whole is not remotely accurate. Reliable sources run human interest pieces all the time, and we rarely ever count them towards notability, largely because they lack intellectual independence from the subject and are borderline primary, which are specifically excluded as couting towards notability. TonyBallioni ( talk) 05:54, 20 September 2017 (UTC) reply

• Play fair, Tony. I described it as "reporting on a modern example of an issue that..." (then I got verbose, thinking I was being amusing, in my description.) It is a pretty ordinary feature story, reporting not only the issue of child preaching without ordination, but reporting on details of his life, career goals, college how attending, and the fact that his ordination was broadcast live by a local radio station over Facebook. My opinion on that question is yes, I think Jesus probably would have had a facebook page.09:43, 20 September 2017 (UTC)

• The question of whether or not Jesus would have a Facebook page is irrelevant to whether or not a document that is largely based on primary sources that aren't intellectually independent meets the GNG. There is no policy based reason to think it does. TonyBallioni ( talk) 14:30, 20 September 2017 (UTC) reply

• Whoa. The Christian Post is a well-regarded, national publication. This is a reported article. There is no reason to suspect that either the reporter or the publication is connected to this young preacher. E.M.Gregory ( talk) 18:55, 20 September 2017 (UTC) reply

• Delete per prior AfD ( Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Jared Andre' Sawyer Jr) and for lack of any additional notability since then. The SPA activity at this AfD is concerning as well. K.e.coffman ( talk) 20:30, 18 September 2017 (UTC) reply
  • I think your timeline is incorrect: this is last month, when the previous, lightly attended AfD was in November, 2016. Jclemens ( talk) 17:27, 19 September 2017 (UTC) reply
    • Passing local coverage about a car crash does not establish notability by any means, and would be expected in many major cities in the American South its run-of-the-mill, nothing more. TonyBallioni ( talk) 06:01, 20 September 2017 (UTC) reply

• Tony, no, Atlanta is one of the biggest cities in the country and the AJC is is one of the country's major regional dailies. It truly does not run an article every time a local kid is in a car crash. E.M.Gregory ( talk) 18:49, 20 September 2017 (UTC) reply
• This is the last response I will post here, because I don't want to make it more difficult for other to participate in the conversation, but I think it is important to demonstrate how frequent car crash reporting is in the AJC: [6], [7], [8], [9], and there are about 6 more from the first page of Google just from this month. Yes, major regional dailies int he American South run car crash stories all the time. No, none of the people who are involved in them are notable. TonyBallioni ( talk) 03:39, 21 September 2017 (UTC) reply
  • Tony, there's a fundamental difference between the four links you posted, and the one on Sawyer: his link says something about who he is. None of the other four talk about colleges, ambition, cite previous interviews, or books published, or anything of the sort. That's what I would call qualitatively different reporting by the AJC on Sawyer vs. other car crash participants. Jclemens ( talk) 05:04, 22 September 2017 (UTC) reply

• Comment It wasn't immediately obvious from reading the text above, but it appears there have been two separate prior AfDs under different titles:
  • Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Jared Sawyer Jr in May 2016 (no middle name)
  • Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Jared Andre' Sawyer Jr in November, 2016 (no trailing period).
  • Additionally, it appears to still exist now reside at Jared Sawyer Jr, despite the prior where it was moved during this AfD. What a mess. Jclemens ( talk) 17:36, 19 September 2017 (UTC) reply
    • • Thanks for pointing that out. If this closes as delete, I'd request the closing admin to salt all titles. TonyBallioni ( talk) 05:54, 20 September 2017 (UTC) reply
        • What would be the justification for that? It's been recreated with increasing evidence of notability. If you avoid reacting to the meatpuppetry punitively (AGF'ing that these are fans clueless about Wikipedia norms), you can see this young gentleman is at least borderline notable. I'll note that at least one of the previous AfD participants, E.M.Gregory, has changed his mind and is strongly supporting retention in this AfD. Jclemens ( talk) 04:59, 22 September 2017 (UTC) reply
          • I'll comment in reply since you asked for the salting justification: it actually has nothing to do with the meatpuppetry above, but with the repeated recreation of someone who isn't even near notable from my estimation, and I tend to be very critical of the way the average NPP person handles religious biographies. I try to be involved in most AfDs involving clerics of any religion: the average Wikipedia editor will often look at an article about a significant cleric and not know how to assess notability because they work off the fallacy that publications within a religious group can't be intellectually independent from the subject of a biography. What I'm seeing here wouldn't near clear the bar for inclusion for any BLP, and I don't think lowering the bar for clerics to count local car crash articles and pictures in the BBC does the encyclopedia any favours. Salting is justified if this is deleted because we've now wasted time in AfD three times over this person, and the title has been at four different names now. TonyBallioni ( talk) 06:09, 22 September 2017 (UTC) reply
• The keep argument, as I see it, consists of:
  

1. article in the Christian Post, Teen Called to Preach at Age 5 Sparks Debate ABout Needing a Degree to Preach God's Word, Christian Post
2. 2017 article in the Atlanta Journal Constitution, Teen Author, Morehouse Student Recovering After Crach, [10]
3. 2009 article in the Baltimore Afro-American about speakers at a scholarship presentation at a Howard University School of Divinity scholarship award ceremony, relevant text reads "The guest speaker will be the Rev. Jared Sawyer Jr., who is 11 years old and is a spiritual phenomenon... Jared, a native of Decatur, Ga., and the son of Sebrina and Jared Sawyer Sr., is like any 11 year old youngster who loves to play sports and hang out with his friends. More than that, he loves to read and study the Bible. Another difference between him and his peers is that on Sunday mornings, he goes to the pulpit. "I was called to preach by the voice of God at age 6," Jared said. He was licensed as a preacher at Centerhill Baptist Church in Decatur where he began singing the gospel at age 2 and reading the Bible at age 3. Jared, now a resident of Atlanta, studies God's word and writes his own weekly sermons. Many of them , encourage young people to live for the Lord. He truly loves the Lord and is serious about delivering His word through his powerful sermons. He preaches every Sunday in front of hundreds of worshippers and asks them to forget his age and listen to his delivery of God's word." [11]
4. Too Much Truth: Minister Jared Sawyer Jr. 21 July, 2016 interviewed by Derrick Boazman [12] on CBS local (there's more similar, but I'm out of time.) 4. He is mentioned in a 2012 BBC article, "The curious allure of child preachers" [13].
5. Others stuff includes news hits on announcements of his appearances to speak/preach in various places.
6. Plus brief coverage, often just announcements, of activities undertaken by his Jared Sawyer, Jr/ Ministries. This includes stuff like organizing youth in Atlanta to plant trees along roads on Martin Luther King Day, putting on a one day "Teens Against Violence," seminar, and similar.
7. In addition, he has had some very small film roles [14] that do not appreciably contribute to notability. And books that garnered no significant coverage in RS.
Summing up, there is no doubt that he is a self promoter, not only on WP, but also, for example, on his imdb bio (which describes him as a best-selling author.) I did this summary for myself, and didn't complete the list (out of time) but looking at it, I do think that there's is enough to support an article. E.M.Gregory ( talk) 10:46, 20 September 2017 (UTC) reply

• Keep - I ducked in here due to what looks like at a glance either sockpuppetry or a voting campaign up top of this debate. I believe the subject's age at ordination, while still a minor, and the published controversy surrounding this gets us most of the way to passing GNG and the other unrelated sourcing already showing in the footnotes takes us the rest of the way home. Don't care about christianity, the economics of churches, and whether or not this subject is a "self-promotor" — the bottom line is that the subject passes GNG based on multiple instances of significant coverage of the subject in independently published sources of presumed accuracy. Carrite ( talk) 16:43, 20 September 2017 (UTC) reply
• Emir of Wikipedia has moved the article since the start of this AfD. I have moved the article back and recreated the title with an apostrophe after the middle name as a redirect. GeoffreyT2000 ^{( talk, contribs)} 21:25, 22 September 2017 (UTC) reply

This was just a result of a request at WP:RM/TR. I take no side in this AfD. -- Emir of Wikipedia ( talk) 21:27, 22 September 2017 (UTC) reply

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.