- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was delete. Mark Arsten ( talk) 01:21, 31 January 2014 (UTC)
Jaanus Sorokin
- Jaanus Sorokin ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log · Stats)
- (Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
In the process of making sure the edit warring on this article stopped it was completely missed that this player completely fails to meet WP:GNG and fails to meet WP:NHOCKEY. So it seems it should have been Afd'd to begin with instead of worrying about protection. - DJSasso ( talk) 14:41, 23 January 2014 (UTC)
- Note: This debate has been included in the list of Ice hockey-related deletion discussions. DJSasso ( talk) 15:08, 23 January 2014 (UTC)
- Note: This debate has been included in the list of Estonia-related deletion discussions. Northamerica1000 (talk) 16:09, 23 January 2014 (UTC)
- Note: This debate has been included in the list of Sportspeople-related deletion discussions. Northamerica1000 (talk) 16:09, 23 January 2014 (UTC)
- Delete nn player in low level leagues. Reso lute 20:01, 23 January 2014 (UTC)
- Delete: Player fails to qualify under WP:NHOCKEY, BLP article with no sources attesting to notability. Ravenswing 20:46, 23 January 2014 (UTC)
- Delete: not notable -- Львівське ( говорити) 07:50, 24 January 2014 (UTC)
- KEEP. WP:NHOCKEY suffers from Wikipedia:Systemic bias, as it is biased towards players in the North American league as being "notable". Jaanus Sorokin is a player in the top tier of professional hockey in Estonia, the Meistriliiga, as well as for the national team for the Olympics and World Cup. -- Nug ( talk) 08:32, 24 January 2014 (UTC)
- Reply: Hardly; only one current North American league -- the NHL -- satisfies Criterion #1 of NHOCKEY as a top-rated professional league. The others are all European leagues: Russia's KHL, the Czech Extraliga, the Swedish Hockey League and the Finnish SM-liiga. The International Ice Hockey Federation ranks Estonia as the 28th most prominent nation in hockey, and has never ranked it higher than 23rd. The Estonian national team has never qualified for the Olympics nor for the championship division of the Worlds. That being said, NHOCKEY is the pertinent guideline. If you disagree with it, by all means state your case at the NHOCKEY/LA talk page and see if you can swing consensus to your POV. AfD isn't the proper venue to debate notability criteria. Ravenswing 08:47, 24 January 2014 (UTC)
- Only "one current North American league"? How did you miss the other 7 North American leagues? This nomination appears somewhat
WP:POINTY, given the discussion here
[1]. This player fulfils criteria 6 of
WP:NHOCKEY: "Played on a senior national team (such as at the Olympic Games or World Championship)",
WP:NHOCKEY says nothing about whether that national team made it through to the final rounds of the Olympic Games or the World Championship or not, nor anything about ranking of top national teams let alone about a cut-off at 22nd ranking out of 72
International Ice Hockey Federation members.
Wikipedia:Systemic bias comes in due to the fact that it nominates prominent members of North American junior and college leagues as eligible at the expense of, say the Russian junior and college leagues. --
Nug (
talk) 09:15, 24 January 2014 (UTC)
- Well the fact that the other 7 leagues haven't existed for over 80 years (I assume you missed the fact he said current even though you even quoted it) and most were amateur leagues that led into the 1 current league from North America that meets criteria #1. Secondly even if he did meet NHOCKEY he still needs to meet GNG, which he doesn't. -
DJSasso (
talk) 12:58, 24 January 2014 (UTC)
- I believe the other 7 North American leagues would be the American Hockey League, East Coast Hockey League, Central Hockey League, Southern Professional Hockey League, Ligue Nord-Américaine de Hockey, Federal Hockey League and the Liga Mexicana Élite - if we were biased towards North America I'm sure they would all qualify for #1 -- Львівське ( говорити) 22:06, 24 January 2014 (UTC)
- Well the fact that the other 7 leagues haven't existed for over 80 years (I assume you missed the fact he said current even though you even quoted it) and most were amateur leagues that led into the 1 current league from North America that meets criteria #1. Secondly even if he did meet NHOCKEY he still needs to meet GNG, which he doesn't. -
DJSasso (
talk) 12:58, 24 January 2014 (UTC)
- Only "one current North American league"? How did you miss the other 7 North American leagues? This nomination appears somewhat
WP:POINTY, given the discussion here
[1]. This player fulfils criteria 6 of
WP:NHOCKEY: "Played on a senior national team (such as at the Olympic Games or World Championship)",
WP:NHOCKEY says nothing about whether that national team made it through to the final rounds of the Olympic Games or the World Championship or not, nor anything about ranking of top national teams let alone about a cut-off at 22nd ranking out of 72
International Ice Hockey Federation members.
Wikipedia:Systemic bias comes in due to the fact that it nominates prominent members of North American junior and college leagues as eligible at the expense of, say the Russian junior and college leagues. --
Nug (
talk) 09:15, 24 January 2014 (UTC)
- Honestly Nug, your vote is basically "Keep because he is Estonian". Not good enough. Show that he meets WP:GNG with reliable sources and you'll be getting somewhere. Reso lute 14:33, 24 January 2014 (UTC)
- No kidding. Claiming that a conversation "disrupts Wikipedia" in which the question was raised, "Truth be told, looking at that article, there's another factor: do you think Sorokin passes notability standards? I'm not seeing it, myself," just goes to highlight Nug's bad faith on this matter. Ravenswing 17:25, 24 January 2014 (UTC)
- Delete without prejudice. Somewhat dubious notability (looks to be local-only, e.g. http://www.eliteprospects.com/player.php?player=69616) and the article seems to be a magnet for socks/SPAs. -- Sander Säde 15:22, 24 January 2014 (UTC)
- Adding - even local notability seems rather low, as there are only articles that mention him passingly, as a member of a team among others. For example, [2], [3]. -- Sander Säde 15:30, 24 January 2014 (UTC)
- Delete. Fails NHOCKEY and GNG. Top Estonian League doesn't get enough coverage for the presumption that all competitors are notable. Athlete never competed at Olympics or top level World Championships. Can be re-created if he ever meets GNG or NHOCKEY in the future. Patken4 ( talk) 22:25, 24 January 2014 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was delete. Mark Arsten ( talk) 01:21, 31 January 2014 (UTC)
Jaanus Sorokin
- Jaanus Sorokin ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log · Stats)
- (Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
In the process of making sure the edit warring on this article stopped it was completely missed that this player completely fails to meet WP:GNG and fails to meet WP:NHOCKEY. So it seems it should have been Afd'd to begin with instead of worrying about protection. - DJSasso ( talk) 14:41, 23 January 2014 (UTC)
- Note: This debate has been included in the list of Ice hockey-related deletion discussions. DJSasso ( talk) 15:08, 23 January 2014 (UTC)
- Note: This debate has been included in the list of Estonia-related deletion discussions. Northamerica1000 (talk) 16:09, 23 January 2014 (UTC)
- Note: This debate has been included in the list of Sportspeople-related deletion discussions. Northamerica1000 (talk) 16:09, 23 January 2014 (UTC)
- Delete nn player in low level leagues. Reso lute 20:01, 23 January 2014 (UTC)
- Delete: Player fails to qualify under WP:NHOCKEY, BLP article with no sources attesting to notability. Ravenswing 20:46, 23 January 2014 (UTC)
- Delete: not notable -- Львівське ( говорити) 07:50, 24 January 2014 (UTC)
- KEEP. WP:NHOCKEY suffers from Wikipedia:Systemic bias, as it is biased towards players in the North American league as being "notable". Jaanus Sorokin is a player in the top tier of professional hockey in Estonia, the Meistriliiga, as well as for the national team for the Olympics and World Cup. -- Nug ( talk) 08:32, 24 January 2014 (UTC)
- Reply: Hardly; only one current North American league -- the NHL -- satisfies Criterion #1 of NHOCKEY as a top-rated professional league. The others are all European leagues: Russia's KHL, the Czech Extraliga, the Swedish Hockey League and the Finnish SM-liiga. The International Ice Hockey Federation ranks Estonia as the 28th most prominent nation in hockey, and has never ranked it higher than 23rd. The Estonian national team has never qualified for the Olympics nor for the championship division of the Worlds. That being said, NHOCKEY is the pertinent guideline. If you disagree with it, by all means state your case at the NHOCKEY/LA talk page and see if you can swing consensus to your POV. AfD isn't the proper venue to debate notability criteria. Ravenswing 08:47, 24 January 2014 (UTC)
- Only "one current North American league"? How did you miss the other 7 North American leagues? This nomination appears somewhat
WP:POINTY, given the discussion here
[1]. This player fulfils criteria 6 of
WP:NHOCKEY: "Played on a senior national team (such as at the Olympic Games or World Championship)",
WP:NHOCKEY says nothing about whether that national team made it through to the final rounds of the Olympic Games or the World Championship or not, nor anything about ranking of top national teams let alone about a cut-off at 22nd ranking out of 72
International Ice Hockey Federation members.
Wikipedia:Systemic bias comes in due to the fact that it nominates prominent members of North American junior and college leagues as eligible at the expense of, say the Russian junior and college leagues. --
Nug (
talk) 09:15, 24 January 2014 (UTC)
- Well the fact that the other 7 leagues haven't existed for over 80 years (I assume you missed the fact he said current even though you even quoted it) and most were amateur leagues that led into the 1 current league from North America that meets criteria #1. Secondly even if he did meet NHOCKEY he still needs to meet GNG, which he doesn't. -
DJSasso (
talk) 12:58, 24 January 2014 (UTC)
- I believe the other 7 North American leagues would be the American Hockey League, East Coast Hockey League, Central Hockey League, Southern Professional Hockey League, Ligue Nord-Américaine de Hockey, Federal Hockey League and the Liga Mexicana Élite - if we were biased towards North America I'm sure they would all qualify for #1 -- Львівське ( говорити) 22:06, 24 January 2014 (UTC)
- Well the fact that the other 7 leagues haven't existed for over 80 years (I assume you missed the fact he said current even though you even quoted it) and most were amateur leagues that led into the 1 current league from North America that meets criteria #1. Secondly even if he did meet NHOCKEY he still needs to meet GNG, which he doesn't. -
DJSasso (
talk) 12:58, 24 January 2014 (UTC)
- Only "one current North American league"? How did you miss the other 7 North American leagues? This nomination appears somewhat
WP:POINTY, given the discussion here
[1]. This player fulfils criteria 6 of
WP:NHOCKEY: "Played on a senior national team (such as at the Olympic Games or World Championship)",
WP:NHOCKEY says nothing about whether that national team made it through to the final rounds of the Olympic Games or the World Championship or not, nor anything about ranking of top national teams let alone about a cut-off at 22nd ranking out of 72
International Ice Hockey Federation members.
Wikipedia:Systemic bias comes in due to the fact that it nominates prominent members of North American junior and college leagues as eligible at the expense of, say the Russian junior and college leagues. --
Nug (
talk) 09:15, 24 January 2014 (UTC)
- Honestly Nug, your vote is basically "Keep because he is Estonian". Not good enough. Show that he meets WP:GNG with reliable sources and you'll be getting somewhere. Reso lute 14:33, 24 January 2014 (UTC)
- No kidding. Claiming that a conversation "disrupts Wikipedia" in which the question was raised, "Truth be told, looking at that article, there's another factor: do you think Sorokin passes notability standards? I'm not seeing it, myself," just goes to highlight Nug's bad faith on this matter. Ravenswing 17:25, 24 January 2014 (UTC)
- Delete without prejudice. Somewhat dubious notability (looks to be local-only, e.g. http://www.eliteprospects.com/player.php?player=69616) and the article seems to be a magnet for socks/SPAs. -- Sander Säde 15:22, 24 January 2014 (UTC)
- Adding - even local notability seems rather low, as there are only articles that mention him passingly, as a member of a team among others. For example, [2], [3]. -- Sander Säde 15:30, 24 January 2014 (UTC)
- Delete. Fails NHOCKEY and GNG. Top Estonian League doesn't get enough coverage for the presumption that all competitors are notable. Athlete never competed at Olympics or top level World Championships. Can be re-created if he ever meets GNG or NHOCKEY in the future. Patken4 ( talk) 22:25, 24 January 2014 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.