- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was merge to List of Avatar: The Last Airbender characters#Iroh. — Coffee // have a cup // beans // 20:30, 11 February 2015 (UTC)
Iroh
- Iroh ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log · Stats)
- (Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
A recurring character from a TV series. I doubt that he meets WP:GNG. All sources cited are primary sources (episodes of the TV series) or occasionally sources associated with the TV network. It is not inconceivable that some degree of third-party coverage exists in the form of reviews, but I think that it is more likely that there isn't enough to build an article on and convey notability. In this form, the article is more something to be expected from a fan wiki, as it is mostly plot summary and in-universe description, including original research. Sandstein 22:04, 2 January 2015 (UTC)
- Note: This debate has been included in the list of Fictional elements-related deletion discussions. Rcsprinter123 (push) @ 22:03, 3 January 2015 (UTC)
- Note: This debate has been included in the list of Television-related deletion discussions. Rcsprinter123 (jaw) @ 22:03, 3 January 2015 (UTC)
- Note: This debate has been included in the list of United States of America-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k ( talk) 01:20, 4 January 2015 (UTC)
- Note: This debate has been included in the list of Comics and animation-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k ( talk) 01:21, 4 January 2015 (UTC)
- Merge and redirect to List of Avatar: The Last Airbender characters unless independent sourcing is found talking about him specifically. -- SarekOfVulcan (talk) 03:34, 4 January 2015 (UTC)
- Comment Mako Iwamatsu's page should get some expanded Iroh commentary, because... wow, what a role to end on. He was brilliant. Solarbird ( talk) 09:15, 4 January 2015 (UTC)
- Retain as separate article Iroh was an important enough character in the series to have a separate page. He was directly involved in Zuko's maturation process and was an integral part of the series plot. Many who watched the series would agree with this. Also Iroh was basically one of the last roles that Mako Iwamatsu played before he passed. That's also pretty notable. I'm afraid we're going a bit overboard with the "wiki-lawyering" here and I also believe there's a callous disregard for the work that was put into this article...an article by the way that was once a "Good Articles" nominee. It seems very bizarre that a former GA nominee is now being nominated for deletion. I believe that folks are being a little overzealous here...which can be to the detriment of Wikipedia. G. Capo ( talk) 02:11, 7 January 2015 (UTC)
Keep. Iroh is a major character (appearing in a majority of episodes) in the highest-acclaimed and most-watched animated series of the 2000s.Upon rethought, merge/redirect as per others. Pax 03:48, 9 January 2015 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, B E C K Y S A Y L E S 03:32, 10 January 2015 (UTC)
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, B E C K Y S A Y L E S 03:32, 10 January 2015 (UTC)
Keep. Not only is Iroh a major character, many other articles on the main characters exist in their own right. For example, Aang, Sokka, and even Asami Sato. Iroh was in both The Last Airbender and Legend of Korra and deserves a place on the wiki as a major character in one of the most popular animated shows of the past decade. And continues to be popular. And I agree with G. Capo, this is a well written article.After looking at the article again, Merge and redirect SamWilson989 ( talk) 23:56, 10 January 2015 (UTC)
- I was poking around for other things and found this article at Animation Anamoly which might help anyone considering improving the article. Solarbird ( talk) 05:27, 16 January 2015 (UTC)
- Merge and redirect to List of Avatar: The Last Airbender characters. The article is basically a plot summary. Fictional characters need to have real world notability, but none is asserted. The arguments for keeping do not convince. Being a character on a successful show does not make one notable (see WP:NOTINHERITED). Being played by a talented actor does not make one notable (again, see WP:NOTINHERITED), nor does being one of the last (or first, for that matter) characters such an actor played. That there are articles for other characters from the series does not matter ( WP:OTHERSTUFF), and if some/all of the other articles have similarly tenuous claims of notability, the solution would be to bring those other ones to AfD too, not give this one a pass. And it really should (but apparently does not) go without saying that what "[m]any who watched the series would agree with" is not what we should be basing decisions of character notability on. If we did, we'd be flooded by articles on every fictional character from everything that has its own article - every show, every movie, every book, every game. How is that a good thing? Isn't that what wikia is for? Egsan Bacon ( talk) 17:54, 13 January 2015 (UTC)
- If we're going to apply these standards, then you might as well start deleting about 1/3 to a 1/2 of Wikipedia articles. What is the notability of a number of comic book characters in the real-world or TV show characters that have their own wiki articles? What is the notability of the large numbers of athletes who are not famous but have their own separate Wikipedia article? Please define "does not matter"? What may not matter to you may matter quite a lot to someone else. Wiki is important in that it has become "The People's Encyclopedia". It's become the first "go-to" site to get info quickly. I'll agree that a number of articles probably shouldn't be on wiki. However, when we start deciding which article is not important because we don't feel it's important, you're detracting from what makes Wikipedia special. If you don't believe the subject matter that is being discussed is important, feel free to ignore the article and read something that's important or relevant to you. Someone else will likely gladly read the article in question. G. Capo ( talk) 23:51, 19 January 2015 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Michig ( talk) 11:00, 18 January 2015 (UTC)
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Michig ( talk) 11:00, 18 January 2015 (UTC)
- Comment. I think I'd agree that if consensus led to this article being merged, then we should have discussions on the rest of the articles on Avatar characters too. SamWilson989 ( talk) 22:01, 13 January 2015 (UTC)
- That's a fair point, and it reminds me of the abominably WP:Coatracked Asami Sato article which recently survived AfD on a no-consensus. I've changed my vote above. Pax 14:41, 19 January 2015 (UTC)
- Comment. I think this article could be improved. There's been some work on it which has improved it somewhat. It needs quite a bit more - right now, I am not willing to vote to retain - but still, it's a start. Given how extensively quoted Iroh's dialogue continues to be, I wonder if there might be notability from that, and urge the article's supporters be given more time while this discussion continues. Relatedly, I strongly disagree with the idea that a consensus to delete and redirect this article should be used as a springboard to systematically RfD other pages, and I further suggest that comments made above about coatracking w.r.t. Asami Sato are both inaccurate and inappropriate to this discussion. Solarbird ( talk) 03:10, 21 January 2015 (UTC)
- I wasn't saying the other articles should have an instant nomination for deletion, but I just feel that it's a discussion that will have to be had. That should not in any way influence anyone's decision on what they think should happen to this article in particular, that would be inappropriate. I think I'd agree with you on that the article needs more time, as at this point I'm leaning towards merging and redirecting towards the main list of characters article despite believing that Iroh himself is too notable as a character of the show, and in his own right. SamWilson989 ( talk) 07:46, 21 January 2015 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.
Relisting comment: Let us try the last relist
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Ymblanter ( talk) 09:57, 1 February 2015 (UTC)
Relisting comment: Let us try the last relist
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Ymblanter ( talk) 09:57, 1 February 2015 (UTC)
- Selective merge
Keep– Here is a page from a book that is rather interesting, because it is the creators of the series discussing how Iroh became a major character in the series. Mainly I'm !voting keep because neither the nom nor any of the delete votes have given any indication that they have made the minimal effort to find sources required by WP:BEFORE. – Margin1522 ( talk) 19:02, 1 February 2015 (UTC)
- @ Margin1522: That's a book by the creators of the series and therefore not the sort of independent source we look for. As to sources, I'm very familiar with the sources that exist about the second series and much about the first - it was I who wrote most of the main article The Legend of Korra and the season articles - and I've not come across any sources that would help here. Sandstein 19:28, 1 February 2015 (UTC)
- @ Sandstein: OK, then I will !vote merge as well, because my own search of Google turned up nothing but fan sites. List of Avatar: The Last Airbender characters looks like the natural destination. – Margin1522 ( talk) 20:01, 1 February 2015 (UTC)
- Merge and redirect. I've changed my mind, there are not enough sources that show Iroh is worth his own article. Merge to List of Avatar: The Last Airbender characters is definitely a better solution. SamWilson989 ( talk) 22:41, 1 February 2015 (UTC)
I've found a few more secondary sources on Iroh. This may adequately demonstrate the character's notability. G. Capo ( talk) 03:02, 9 February 2015 (UTC)
- Redirect The article's subject fails to satisfy either WP:GNG or WP:NCHAR and should be redirected to List of Avatar: The Last Airbender characters#Iroh. I don't think the standalone article has anything that would be worth merging into the list, but I'm in favor of leaving its page history intact just in case. Iaritmioawp ( talk) 10:54, 9 February 2015 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was merge to List of Avatar: The Last Airbender characters#Iroh. — Coffee // have a cup // beans // 20:30, 11 February 2015 (UTC)
Iroh
- Iroh ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log · Stats)
- (Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
A recurring character from a TV series. I doubt that he meets WP:GNG. All sources cited are primary sources (episodes of the TV series) or occasionally sources associated with the TV network. It is not inconceivable that some degree of third-party coverage exists in the form of reviews, but I think that it is more likely that there isn't enough to build an article on and convey notability. In this form, the article is more something to be expected from a fan wiki, as it is mostly plot summary and in-universe description, including original research. Sandstein 22:04, 2 January 2015 (UTC)
- Note: This debate has been included in the list of Fictional elements-related deletion discussions. Rcsprinter123 (push) @ 22:03, 3 January 2015 (UTC)
- Note: This debate has been included in the list of Television-related deletion discussions. Rcsprinter123 (jaw) @ 22:03, 3 January 2015 (UTC)
- Note: This debate has been included in the list of United States of America-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k ( talk) 01:20, 4 January 2015 (UTC)
- Note: This debate has been included in the list of Comics and animation-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k ( talk) 01:21, 4 January 2015 (UTC)
- Merge and redirect to List of Avatar: The Last Airbender characters unless independent sourcing is found talking about him specifically. -- SarekOfVulcan (talk) 03:34, 4 January 2015 (UTC)
- Comment Mako Iwamatsu's page should get some expanded Iroh commentary, because... wow, what a role to end on. He was brilliant. Solarbird ( talk) 09:15, 4 January 2015 (UTC)
- Retain as separate article Iroh was an important enough character in the series to have a separate page. He was directly involved in Zuko's maturation process and was an integral part of the series plot. Many who watched the series would agree with this. Also Iroh was basically one of the last roles that Mako Iwamatsu played before he passed. That's also pretty notable. I'm afraid we're going a bit overboard with the "wiki-lawyering" here and I also believe there's a callous disregard for the work that was put into this article...an article by the way that was once a "Good Articles" nominee. It seems very bizarre that a former GA nominee is now being nominated for deletion. I believe that folks are being a little overzealous here...which can be to the detriment of Wikipedia. G. Capo ( talk) 02:11, 7 January 2015 (UTC)
Keep. Iroh is a major character (appearing in a majority of episodes) in the highest-acclaimed and most-watched animated series of the 2000s.Upon rethought, merge/redirect as per others. Pax 03:48, 9 January 2015 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, B E C K Y S A Y L E S 03:32, 10 January 2015 (UTC)
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, B E C K Y S A Y L E S 03:32, 10 January 2015 (UTC)
Keep. Not only is Iroh a major character, many other articles on the main characters exist in their own right. For example, Aang, Sokka, and even Asami Sato. Iroh was in both The Last Airbender and Legend of Korra and deserves a place on the wiki as a major character in one of the most popular animated shows of the past decade. And continues to be popular. And I agree with G. Capo, this is a well written article.After looking at the article again, Merge and redirect SamWilson989 ( talk) 23:56, 10 January 2015 (UTC)
- I was poking around for other things and found this article at Animation Anamoly which might help anyone considering improving the article. Solarbird ( talk) 05:27, 16 January 2015 (UTC)
- Merge and redirect to List of Avatar: The Last Airbender characters. The article is basically a plot summary. Fictional characters need to have real world notability, but none is asserted. The arguments for keeping do not convince. Being a character on a successful show does not make one notable (see WP:NOTINHERITED). Being played by a talented actor does not make one notable (again, see WP:NOTINHERITED), nor does being one of the last (or first, for that matter) characters such an actor played. That there are articles for other characters from the series does not matter ( WP:OTHERSTUFF), and if some/all of the other articles have similarly tenuous claims of notability, the solution would be to bring those other ones to AfD too, not give this one a pass. And it really should (but apparently does not) go without saying that what "[m]any who watched the series would agree with" is not what we should be basing decisions of character notability on. If we did, we'd be flooded by articles on every fictional character from everything that has its own article - every show, every movie, every book, every game. How is that a good thing? Isn't that what wikia is for? Egsan Bacon ( talk) 17:54, 13 January 2015 (UTC)
- If we're going to apply these standards, then you might as well start deleting about 1/3 to a 1/2 of Wikipedia articles. What is the notability of a number of comic book characters in the real-world or TV show characters that have their own wiki articles? What is the notability of the large numbers of athletes who are not famous but have their own separate Wikipedia article? Please define "does not matter"? What may not matter to you may matter quite a lot to someone else. Wiki is important in that it has become "The People's Encyclopedia". It's become the first "go-to" site to get info quickly. I'll agree that a number of articles probably shouldn't be on wiki. However, when we start deciding which article is not important because we don't feel it's important, you're detracting from what makes Wikipedia special. If you don't believe the subject matter that is being discussed is important, feel free to ignore the article and read something that's important or relevant to you. Someone else will likely gladly read the article in question. G. Capo ( talk) 23:51, 19 January 2015 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Michig ( talk) 11:00, 18 January 2015 (UTC)
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Michig ( talk) 11:00, 18 January 2015 (UTC)
- Comment. I think I'd agree that if consensus led to this article being merged, then we should have discussions on the rest of the articles on Avatar characters too. SamWilson989 ( talk) 22:01, 13 January 2015 (UTC)
- That's a fair point, and it reminds me of the abominably WP:Coatracked Asami Sato article which recently survived AfD on a no-consensus. I've changed my vote above. Pax 14:41, 19 January 2015 (UTC)
- Comment. I think this article could be improved. There's been some work on it which has improved it somewhat. It needs quite a bit more - right now, I am not willing to vote to retain - but still, it's a start. Given how extensively quoted Iroh's dialogue continues to be, I wonder if there might be notability from that, and urge the article's supporters be given more time while this discussion continues. Relatedly, I strongly disagree with the idea that a consensus to delete and redirect this article should be used as a springboard to systematically RfD other pages, and I further suggest that comments made above about coatracking w.r.t. Asami Sato are both inaccurate and inappropriate to this discussion. Solarbird ( talk) 03:10, 21 January 2015 (UTC)
- I wasn't saying the other articles should have an instant nomination for deletion, but I just feel that it's a discussion that will have to be had. That should not in any way influence anyone's decision on what they think should happen to this article in particular, that would be inappropriate. I think I'd agree with you on that the article needs more time, as at this point I'm leaning towards merging and redirecting towards the main list of characters article despite believing that Iroh himself is too notable as a character of the show, and in his own right. SamWilson989 ( talk) 07:46, 21 January 2015 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.
Relisting comment: Let us try the last relist
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Ymblanter ( talk) 09:57, 1 February 2015 (UTC)
Relisting comment: Let us try the last relist
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Ymblanter ( talk) 09:57, 1 February 2015 (UTC)
- Selective merge
Keep– Here is a page from a book that is rather interesting, because it is the creators of the series discussing how Iroh became a major character in the series. Mainly I'm !voting keep because neither the nom nor any of the delete votes have given any indication that they have made the minimal effort to find sources required by WP:BEFORE. – Margin1522 ( talk) 19:02, 1 February 2015 (UTC)
- @ Margin1522: That's a book by the creators of the series and therefore not the sort of independent source we look for. As to sources, I'm very familiar with the sources that exist about the second series and much about the first - it was I who wrote most of the main article The Legend of Korra and the season articles - and I've not come across any sources that would help here. Sandstein 19:28, 1 February 2015 (UTC)
- @ Sandstein: OK, then I will !vote merge as well, because my own search of Google turned up nothing but fan sites. List of Avatar: The Last Airbender characters looks like the natural destination. – Margin1522 ( talk) 20:01, 1 February 2015 (UTC)
- Merge and redirect. I've changed my mind, there are not enough sources that show Iroh is worth his own article. Merge to List of Avatar: The Last Airbender characters is definitely a better solution. SamWilson989 ( talk) 22:41, 1 February 2015 (UTC)
I've found a few more secondary sources on Iroh. This may adequately demonstrate the character's notability. G. Capo ( talk) 03:02, 9 February 2015 (UTC)
- Redirect The article's subject fails to satisfy either WP:GNG or WP:NCHAR and should be redirected to List of Avatar: The Last Airbender characters#Iroh. I don't think the standalone article has anything that would be worth merging into the list, but I'm in favor of leaving its page history intact just in case. Iaritmioawp ( talk) 10:54, 9 February 2015 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.