- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was delete. Those arguing to keep this article describe it as a broad article about a pro-democracy movement in Iran. To justify such an article, we need at least a few equally broad sources discussing the topic in the same way our article does. These sources have not been provided. Sources have been provided about the protests as a whole; about individual incidents, slogans, and actors within the protests; and about specific meetings or coordination efforts. But these by and large have articles of their own, and bringing them together into a single article is indeed forbidden synthesis, as the delete opinions point out. As such the keep !votes are largely not based in policy, and there is consensus to delete. This does not preclude such an article in the future; indeed, it's not unlikely that overviews will appear in the scholarly literature a few years removed from the current protests; but we cannot pre-empt those. Vanamonde ( Talk) 22:49, 19 March 2023 (UTC)
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- Iranian Democracy Movement ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log | edits since nomination)
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Non-notable organization, one of many groups of people involved in the protests in Iran. Did not receive any sort of substantial coverage in RS, as said in the article. Oaktree b ( talk) 01:35, 5 March 2023 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Organizations-related deletion discussions. Oaktree b ( talk) 01:35, 5 March 2023 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Politics and Iran. Shellwood ( talk) 01:42, 5 March 2023 (UTC)
- OPPOSE deletion, KEEP article Its not an "organization", its a "movement", as stated in the title. And a movement with a long and highly notable history.
Jaredscribe (
talk)
06:22, 5 March 2023 (UTC)
- With no coverage in media, as stated in the article, they've received some media attention, not enough for GNG.
Oaktree b (
talk)
15:12, 5 March 2023 (UTC)
- Three media citations were given, so why would you say that? Did you not read it? As stated in the article: "This effort received some attention from the press"
[1]
[2]
[3] and are seeking support from the international community.
[4]
Jaredscribe (
talk)
19:58, 5 March 2023 (UTC)
- Yes, "some" attention. Not "major" attention. Few if any type of coverage.
Oaktree b (
talk)
22:59, 5 March 2023 (UTC)
- Can you read and write Farsi? I cannot. I propose we defer judgement on this until competent editors from WP:WikiProject Iran can interpret the overall tenor of how the Farsi media have covered this. Jaredscribe ( talk) 05:46, 9 March 2023 (UTC)
- Yes, "some" attention. Not "major" attention. Few if any type of coverage.
Oaktree b (
talk)
22:59, 5 March 2023 (UTC)
- Three media citations were given, so why would you say that? Did you not read it? As stated in the article: "This effort received some attention from the press"
[1]
[2]
[3] and are seeking support from the international community.
[4]
Jaredscribe (
talk)
19:58, 5 March 2023 (UTC)
- On 6 march @ Charles Essie improved the lede to clarify this point of it being a movement, not a unified group. the article title also makes that clear, especially if we move it into lower case, which I've proposed doing immediately after this discussion closes, and I presume everyone agrees. I don't think we can move if while this AfD discussion is underway. the lower casing will make clear that its not proper name, or widely used acronym. Since then, the lede sentence has read
- The Iranian Democracy Movement is a political movement consisting of a diverse range of dissidents, political and cultural leaders, and militants working for regime change and proposing possible new constitutional frameworks for Iran. Jaredscribe ( talk) 05:54, 9 March 2023 (UTC)
- RENAME article Starting to agree with my critics below, upon further research. Although it wasn't my intention, the article conveyed the subtle impression, that there was a unified front, which there isn't. A somewhat WP:SYNTH claim supported by only a minority of sources, partisan ones.
- I've modified the lede to remove that impression. But renaming the article as a whole may help.
- A previous article Iranian dissidents was merged into these, so we could move it back to that.
- Or we could name it Iranian opposition.
- Or we could call it Iranian democracy movements in the plural, lowercase. That would be my vote. and the scope of the article would be from approximately the 1920s to the present
- Also, the article now has 56 references; when this process started, there were only 3 or 4. I therefore ask everyone to re-evaluate this article.
Jaredscribe (
talk)
19:01, 15 March 2023 (UTC)
- 2018_Iranian_university_protests had a red link to this, and it just went blue when we made the article. I had never been there until just now. Its history shows that hadn't been edited since 1 Jan, and I don't know how long that link had been red, but it would be interesting to investigate. Mention of an "Iranian Democracy Movement" occurred in quite a number of articles. In fact, I created this article out of another redlink somewhere - I don't even remember exactly where. we are responding to an expressed need, by making this article. Jaredscribe ( talk) 07:44, 19 March 2023 (UTC)
- With no coverage in media, as stated in the article, they've received some media attention, not enough for GNG.
Oaktree b (
talk)
15:12, 5 March 2023 (UTC)
- OPPOSE deletion, KEEP article - The Iranian Democracy Movement isn't an organization or movement active in the protests, it is the protests. The Iranian Democracy Movement refers to every protest from the
2016 Cyrus the Great Revolt to the present, similar to how the
Iranian Green Movement spans the
2009 Iranian presidential election protests and the
2011–2012 Iranian protests. I and other users have been advocating for an umbrella article for some time.
Charles Essie (
talk)
19:54, 5 March 2023 (UTC)
- Exactly Jaredscribe ( talk) 19:58, 5 March 2023 (UTC)
Keep This article does not describe an organization, as mentioned above, but a political movement. It's easily on its way to becoming a broad concept article that organizes the different notable groups and individuals who are working to bring about a regime change in Iran. Joyous! Noise! 21:38, 5 March 2023 (UTC)
- In keeping with the emerging consensus, I have undertaken to
WP:BOLDly move the article by lower-casing its title.
Iranian democracy movement is now what we are talking about, to address the earlier confusion and concerns of the deletion-nominating editor. I'll now move to close the discussion, with a consensus for keep article, oppose deletion. If someone wishes to renominate for deletion, based on new reasons, they may. Regards,
Jaredscribe (
talk)
21:51, 5 March 2023 (UTC)
- Do not close this discussion. You are
WP:INVOLVED and the nominator has not indicated that they are withdrawing. You cannot unilaterally make this decision.
Curbon7 (
talk)
06:10, 6 March 2023 (UTC)
- ok, motion denied Jaredscribe ( talk) 21:27, 6 March 2023 (UTC)
- I think such a move warrants a discussion of its own. After all, the Iranian Green Movement is capitalized despite also being a movement instead of a formal organization. Charles Essie ( talk) 20:36, 6 March 2023 (UTC)
- Do not close this discussion. You are
WP:INVOLVED and the nominator has not indicated that they are withdrawing. You cannot unilaterally make this decision.
Curbon7 (
talk)
06:10, 6 March 2023 (UTC)
- Delete: different parts of this article seem to be
WP:HOAX, and other parts are not notable. Like others are saying, there is indeed a term "Iranian democracy movement" that has been used in the media to describe recent protests in Iran, but this obscure group seems to have expropriated that term as their name (which does not make this group notable). The lead of the article mentions the National Council of Resistance of Iran and People's Mujahedin of Iran as "leading coalition", which is a
hoax. The "Notable dissidents" part mentions individuals that are unrelated to this group. The section "Bibliography" part has a single book from 2011 that does not mention this group. And as the OP said, the group itself has not received any sort of substantial coverage in RS.
ParadaJulio (
talk)
16:18, 6 March 2023 (UTC)
- Again, this isn't a group. Charles Essie ( talk) 16:24, 6 March 2023 (UTC)
- The article promotes this
this group as the "Iranian democracy movement", which is a group that hasn't received any substantial media coverage or has anything to do with either the National Council of Resistance of Iran or People's Mujahedin of Iran (contrary to the hoax claims made in the article). If your argument is that the "Iranian democracy movement" is the protests themselves, then the discussion should be about renaming the protests or merging some of them under an umbrella term.
ParadaJulio (
talk)
16:58, 6 March 2023 (UTC)
- I would definitely recommend that this article be rewritten to provide better coverage of the movement as whole, especially since that group doesn't seem to even be an actual group but rather a meeting of opposition leaders, a meeting that is in fact already covered
here.
Charles Essie (
talk)
20:27, 6 March 2023 (UTC)
- Agreed, I've pioneered the rough draft so far; maybe you should be the one to make the second draft! Jaredscribe ( talk) 00:54, 7 March 2023 (UTC)
- No, that group is not "the movement", that is a 'summit' of political and cultural leaders who got together to discuss "the future of the movement". Jaredscribe ( talk) 04:32, 13 March 2023 (UTC)
- I would definitely recommend that this article be rewritten to provide better coverage of the movement as whole, especially since that group doesn't seem to even be an actual group but rather a meeting of opposition leaders, a meeting that is in fact already covered
here.
Charles Essie (
talk)
20:27, 6 March 2023 (UTC)
- The article promotes this
this group as the "Iranian democracy movement", which is a group that hasn't received any substantial media coverage or has anything to do with either the National Council of Resistance of Iran or People's Mujahedin of Iran (contrary to the hoax claims made in the article). If your argument is that the "Iranian democracy movement" is the protests themselves, then the discussion should be about renaming the protests or merging some of them under an umbrella term.
ParadaJulio (
talk)
16:58, 6 March 2023 (UTC)
- References to the NCRI and MEK are now removed from the lede. It was a mis-understanding that was my fault, not an intentional hoax. I was trying to list the various disparate groups. Someone who is more knowledgeable than I am should do this. Regards, Jaredscribe ( talk) 21:33, 6 March 2023 (UTC)
- I've put the NCRI/MEK into a sub-section under '''Organized Resistance Groups'''. That is a fact, its not a hoax.
- Maryam Rajavi's 10-point plan has been endorsed, most recently in 2023, by the U.S. House of representatives no less, in H.R. 100, “support for the opposition leader Mrs. Maryam Rajavi’s 10-point plan for the future of Iran, which calls for the universal right to vote, free elections, and a market economy, and advocates gender, religious, and ethnic equality, a foreign policy based on peaceful coexistence, and a nonnuclear Iran.” [1]
- The NCRI are clearly leaders.
- Why would you call that a hoax?
Jaredscribe (
talk)
04:27, 13 March 2023 (UTC)
- 222 members of the US House support HR. 100 as of 10 march 2023 Jaredscribe ( talk) 04:29, 13 March 2023 (UTC)
- Delete: There's already an article for the
National Council of Resistance of Iran and its many fronts, as well as articles for the protest movements. This article seems to be about NCRI-backed movement, or meant to present NCRI as the leading opposition force. As such, I don't think it needs a standalone article, since NCRI/MEK are the right place for this.
MarioGom (
talk)
17:56, 6 March 2023 (UTC)
- The NCRI is mentioned in the opening paragraph but this article isn't about them. Charles Essie ( talk) 20:34, 6 March 2023 (UTC)
- Keep The article is not about an organisation and there is nothing about MEK in it now. Plenty of references available in different languages.
Gharouni
Talk
00:03, 7 March 2023 (UTC)
- Can you read and write Farsi? I cannot, nor arabic. Perhaps you can add these references, make translations, link to wikidata items, recruit other Farsi-speaking editors?
- Thank you for you constructive edits to other articles in this subject matter
-
Jaredscribe (
talk)
05:26, 9 March 2023 (UTC)
- @ Jaredscribe: Hi. I am a native Farsi speaker, how can I help? we can discuss on the article's talk page or your/my user talk page. Jeeputer Talk 21:57, 13 March 2023 (UTC)
- @ Gharouni the group at The future of Iran's democracy movement meeting have published their joint charter, and they are now styling themselves the Alliance for Democracy and Freedom in Iran, so so I've proposed renaming that article. See its talk page.
- also @
Jeeputer, see other comment above
Jaredscribe (
talk)
01:59, 18 March 2023 (UTC)
- Thank you! Maybe a the farsi wikipedia is a good first place to start? How is that project organizing this subject matter? Feel free to use the template
- {{ Expand Farsi}} which will produce this
 | You can help expand this article with text translated from the corresponding article in Persian. Click [show] for important translation instructions.
|
- The article under scrutiny for deletion IS about the advocacy of democracy in Iran, in response to the protests, which as you say is a complex umbrella term, and we are deferring to how it has been used by notable dissidents and in the media, and calling it the Iranian Democracy Movement - past, present, and possible futures. the article you linked, was the name of the Feb 2023 summit that met to ask about its future. obviously, this is notable enough to warrant a broad concept article. if the crown prince, Reza Pahlavi is meeting to ask about "its" future, with 7 other leaders all notable enough to have their own wikipedia pages, than whatever "it" is is notable enough to both have a future and to have a wikipedia article about it. What "it" is, is the "Iranian Democracy Movement".
- This whole discussion betrays
WP:Systemic bias toward an Anglo-american perspective, as if the Iranian media is of no interest and no import, and unless CNN runs a special there is "no significant" media coverage and we might as well quit. What? We should be better than that.
Jaredscribe (
talk)
01:38, 8 March 2023 (UTC)
- The article seems riddled with original research and strenuous connections with no sources to verify them, or sources that are about a group but not a movement per se (even after I’ve copy-edited it).
JoseJan89 (
talk)
10:45, 8 March 2023 (UTC)
- I had tagged it as there isn't one group called the "IRANIAN DEMOCRACY MOVEMENT", but rather a bunch of people and small groups working towards the same goal. I think that might be the issue, the article can't decide what it's about, one group, or the movement as a social phenomena.
Oaktree b (
talk)
21:35, 8 March 2023 (UTC)
- The supporters of the article have decided what its about - the movement as a social phenomenon. Its detractors the deletionists are still trying to figure out how best to slander it.
Jaredscribe (
talk)
05:29, 9 March 2023 (UTC)
- Actually, they're not trying to figure out anything. They're trying to pretend that they didn't hear what I and several other supporters have repeatedly affirmed.
- Have any of you even read the article's lede sentence?
- "The Iranian Democracy Movement is a political movement consisting of a diverse range of dissidents, political and cultural leaders, and militants working for regime change and proposing possible new constitutional frameworks for Iran."
- If not, why not? And if so, what about this is still unclear to you? Jaredscribe ( talk) 05:38, 9 March 2023 (UTC)
- The supporters of the article have decided what its about - the movement as a social phenomenon. Its detractors the deletionists are still trying to figure out how best to slander it.
Jaredscribe (
talk)
05:29, 9 March 2023 (UTC)
- I restored the previous version, and tagged with
citation needed because yes, sources should be given. Since many sources and citations can be founded on all of those linked articles, lets wait until I or someone does the research and copy-paste. Perhaps you could do something constructive and help out with this? By the way, the
WP:SKYISBLUE. You can tag the section
if you wish Jaredscribe ( talk) 05:32, 9 March 2023 (UTC)
- Jaredscribe: I'm trying to help you here, but you're not making it easy. Since your argument is that the article is about a movement (and not about that summit), can you please list the sources that discuss (with substance) the movement? JoseJan89 ( talk) 10:22, 9 March 2023 (UTC)
- I had tagged it as there isn't one group called the "IRANIAN DEMOCRACY MOVEMENT", but rather a bunch of people and small groups working towards the same goal. I think that might be the issue, the article can't decide what it's about, one group, or the movement as a social phenomena.
Oaktree b (
talk)
21:35, 8 March 2023 (UTC)
- The article seems riddled with original research and strenuous connections with no sources to verify them, or sources that are about a group but not a movement per se (even after I’ve copy-edited it).
JoseJan89 (
talk)
10:45, 8 March 2023 (UTC)
- I don't know how you can say that this is '''completely unrelated''', or that a bipartisan resolution is misinformation. This article purports to be a Wikipedia:Broad-concept article that proposes to briefly encapulate exising articles on all the various groups that support some form of democracy, republicanism, or constitutional monarchy as an alternative to the current regime.
- A majority of members of the US House of Representatives backed a “bipartisan resolution” in June 2020 supporting Maryam Rajavi and the NCRI's “call for a secular, democratic Iran” while “condemning Iranian state-sponsored terrorism”. The resolution, backed by 221 lawmakers, gave support to the Rajavi's 10-point plan for Iran's future (which include “a universal right to vote, market economy, and a non-nuclear Iran”) while calling on the prevention of “malign activities of the Iranian regime’s diplomatic missions.” The resolution also called on the U.S. to stand “with the people of Iran who are continuing to hold legitimate and peaceful protests” against the Iranian government. [5] [6] Jaredscribe ( talk) 23:24, 10 March 2023 (UTC)
- Jaredscribe, you keep referencing the NCRI even though they have nothing to do with
Reza Pahlavi, Crown Prince of Iran. "Democracy, republicanism, or constitutional monarchy" are different things. You've created an article consisting of an indiscriminate list of Iranian groups (with different political views) that have nothing to do with one another, and then you made the unsupported assertion that these groups somehow form part of the same "Iranian democracy movement".
ParadaJulio (
talk)
13:03, 11 March 2023 (UTC)
- He has long advocated for free elections to form a constituent assembly that could determine the future form of governance in Iran.
- Spain and Britain are parliamentary democracies that have 'constitutional monarchies'. its not indiscriminate, and these forms of government have much to do with each other, specifically - a constitution and rule of law
Jaredscribe (
talk)
04:12, 13 March 2023 (UTC)
- Which has no bearing on the AfD discussion here. Oaktree b ( talk) 20:09, 13 March 2023 (UTC)
- Jaredscribe, you keep referencing the NCRI even though they have nothing to do with
Reza Pahlavi, Crown Prince of Iran. "Democracy, republicanism, or constitutional monarchy" are different things. You've created an article consisting of an indiscriminate list of Iranian groups (with different political views) that have nothing to do with one another, and then you made the unsupported assertion that these groups somehow form part of the same "Iranian democracy movement".
ParadaJulio (
talk)
13:03, 11 March 2023 (UTC)
References
- ^ "Women, Life, Freedom | History Today". www.historytoday.com. Retrieved 2023-03-04.
-
^ Bijan Ahmadi, Opinion Contributor (2023-02-17).
"From reform to revolution: What is the future of Iran's democracy movement?". The Hill. Retrieved 2023-03-04.
{{ cite web}}:|first=has generic name ( help) -
^ Security, Georgetown Institute for Women, Peace and (2023-02-17).
"The Future of Iran's Democracy Movement". Ms. Magazine. Retrieved 2023-03-04.
{{ cite web}}: CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list ( link) - ^ "How to Support Iran's Democracy Movement". Freedom House. Retrieved 2023-03-04.
- ^ "Majority of House members back resolution supporting Iranian opposition, condemning regime's terror". Fox News. 17 June 2020.
- ^ "'The world is watching': Lawmakers tout bipartisan resolution condemning Iran". 17 June 2020.
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: I see no consensus here with some editors stating this is an important movement and other editors saying some of the content is a hoax. Maybe there will be more clarity after a few more days of consideration.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Liz Read! Talk! 02:53, 12 March 2023 (UTC)
- Delete: per
WP:SYNTH. That different groups want democracy in Iran doesn't mean that they form part of the same movement (or that they want the same kind of "democracy", or are working towards the same objectives). Sources certainly don't cover it that way so it would be
WP:SYNTH to make that assumption.
Poya-P (
talk)
19:05, 12 March 2023 (UTC)
- They are all working toward regime change, that much is established by all the sources. Finding the common denominators between them, as well as the differences, is the role of this article, and that is an appropriate function for an Wikipedia:Encyclopedia.
- The details of the transition differ from the various groups. It is not 'unified', but that doesn't mean its not a movement. I would consider a different name for the article, if someone wishes to propose one. I'm following the designation of these Iranian resistance leaders, as reported in the sources, in calling the article what its now called, the 'Iranian Democracy Movement' - which is something larger than the NCI, the NCRI, the OAIC, or any one political party or dissident group, ,but also comprises them all, and purports to respond the the demands and aspirations of the protestors in Iran
Jaredscribe (
talk)
04:20, 13 March 2023 (UTC)
- This isn't one cohesive group, as much as the media is trying to portray it. We already have articles about the protests and items surrounding it, what's here is basically duplicated in other articles. This is trying to make something out of sources that don't discuss this item.
Oaktree b (
talk)
14:51, 13 March 2023 (UTC)
- I agree that its not a 'cohesive group'. neither i nor the article are portraying it as such.
- Feel free to add content emphasizes the diversity and the lack of unity in 'the movement'.
Jaredscribe (
talk)
18:38, 13 March 2023 (UTC)
- There is none, that's why it's up for deletion debate. Oaktree b ( talk) 20:10, 13 March 2023 (UTC)
- This isn't one cohesive group, as much as the media is trying to portray it. We already have articles about the protests and items surrounding it, what's here is basically duplicated in other articles. This is trying to make something out of sources that don't discuss this item.
Oaktree b (
talk)
14:51, 13 March 2023 (UTC)
- Delete I also don't see any source that supports that these opposing groups are part of a related Iranian Democracy Movement. Looking forward to Jaredscribe'
WP:BLUDGEON-ing reply :) .
Iraniangal777 (
talk)
10:29, 13 March 2023 (UTC)
- I certainly don't want to bludgeon one, trying to instead incise like with a scalpel. this article has grown from 3-4 sources when the deletion process started, and has now grown to over 50. the deletionists it seems were responding to defects in the article itself, rather than to the subject matter itself, of which many of them may have been simply unaware.
- If you see my recent reply to my original vote, above, I am beginning to concur that the article should be renamed so as not to present the impression of a united front. Thoughts? Suggestions? Jaredscribe ( talk) 02:05, 18 March 2023 (UTC)
- Adding 50 sources for topics already covered in other articles and that make no mention of an "Iranian Democracy Movement" doesn't make this article notable. ParadaJulio ( talk) 08:34, 18 March 2023 (UTC)
*Keep As mentioned above, its a movement, not an organization. We could massively re-write the article, but for the most part, the article is notable enough.
Trenton698 (
talk) 01:00, 17 March 2023 (UTC) Blocked as sockpuppet
ParadaJulio (
talk)
08:34, 18 March 2023 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was delete. Those arguing to keep this article describe it as a broad article about a pro-democracy movement in Iran. To justify such an article, we need at least a few equally broad sources discussing the topic in the same way our article does. These sources have not been provided. Sources have been provided about the protests as a whole; about individual incidents, slogans, and actors within the protests; and about specific meetings or coordination efforts. But these by and large have articles of their own, and bringing them together into a single article is indeed forbidden synthesis, as the delete opinions point out. As such the keep !votes are largely not based in policy, and there is consensus to delete. This does not preclude such an article in the future; indeed, it's not unlikely that overviews will appear in the scholarly literature a few years removed from the current protests; but we cannot pre-empt those. Vanamonde ( Talk) 22:49, 19 March 2023 (UTC)
[Hide this box] New to Articles for deletion (AfD)? Read these primers!
- Iranian Democracy Movement ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log | edits since nomination)
- (Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
Non-notable organization, one of many groups of people involved in the protests in Iran. Did not receive any sort of substantial coverage in RS, as said in the article. Oaktree b ( talk) 01:35, 5 March 2023 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Organizations-related deletion discussions. Oaktree b ( talk) 01:35, 5 March 2023 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Politics and Iran. Shellwood ( talk) 01:42, 5 March 2023 (UTC)
- OPPOSE deletion, KEEP article Its not an "organization", its a "movement", as stated in the title. And a movement with a long and highly notable history.
Jaredscribe (
talk)
06:22, 5 March 2023 (UTC)
- With no coverage in media, as stated in the article, they've received some media attention, not enough for GNG.
Oaktree b (
talk)
15:12, 5 March 2023 (UTC)
- Three media citations were given, so why would you say that? Did you not read it? As stated in the article: "This effort received some attention from the press"
[1]
[2]
[3] and are seeking support from the international community.
[4]
Jaredscribe (
talk)
19:58, 5 March 2023 (UTC)
- Yes, "some" attention. Not "major" attention. Few if any type of coverage.
Oaktree b (
talk)
22:59, 5 March 2023 (UTC)
- Can you read and write Farsi? I cannot. I propose we defer judgement on this until competent editors from WP:WikiProject Iran can interpret the overall tenor of how the Farsi media have covered this. Jaredscribe ( talk) 05:46, 9 March 2023 (UTC)
- Yes, "some" attention. Not "major" attention. Few if any type of coverage.
Oaktree b (
talk)
22:59, 5 March 2023 (UTC)
- Three media citations were given, so why would you say that? Did you not read it? As stated in the article: "This effort received some attention from the press"
[1]
[2]
[3] and are seeking support from the international community.
[4]
Jaredscribe (
talk)
19:58, 5 March 2023 (UTC)
- On 6 march @ Charles Essie improved the lede to clarify this point of it being a movement, not a unified group. the article title also makes that clear, especially if we move it into lower case, which I've proposed doing immediately after this discussion closes, and I presume everyone agrees. I don't think we can move if while this AfD discussion is underway. the lower casing will make clear that its not proper name, or widely used acronym. Since then, the lede sentence has read
- The Iranian Democracy Movement is a political movement consisting of a diverse range of dissidents, political and cultural leaders, and militants working for regime change and proposing possible new constitutional frameworks for Iran. Jaredscribe ( talk) 05:54, 9 March 2023 (UTC)
- RENAME article Starting to agree with my critics below, upon further research. Although it wasn't my intention, the article conveyed the subtle impression, that there was a unified front, which there isn't. A somewhat WP:SYNTH claim supported by only a minority of sources, partisan ones.
- I've modified the lede to remove that impression. But renaming the article as a whole may help.
- A previous article Iranian dissidents was merged into these, so we could move it back to that.
- Or we could name it Iranian opposition.
- Or we could call it Iranian democracy movements in the plural, lowercase. That would be my vote. and the scope of the article would be from approximately the 1920s to the present
- Also, the article now has 56 references; when this process started, there were only 3 or 4. I therefore ask everyone to re-evaluate this article.
Jaredscribe (
talk)
19:01, 15 March 2023 (UTC)
- 2018_Iranian_university_protests had a red link to this, and it just went blue when we made the article. I had never been there until just now. Its history shows that hadn't been edited since 1 Jan, and I don't know how long that link had been red, but it would be interesting to investigate. Mention of an "Iranian Democracy Movement" occurred in quite a number of articles. In fact, I created this article out of another redlink somewhere - I don't even remember exactly where. we are responding to an expressed need, by making this article. Jaredscribe ( talk) 07:44, 19 March 2023 (UTC)
- With no coverage in media, as stated in the article, they've received some media attention, not enough for GNG.
Oaktree b (
talk)
15:12, 5 March 2023 (UTC)
- OPPOSE deletion, KEEP article - The Iranian Democracy Movement isn't an organization or movement active in the protests, it is the protests. The Iranian Democracy Movement refers to every protest from the
2016 Cyrus the Great Revolt to the present, similar to how the
Iranian Green Movement spans the
2009 Iranian presidential election protests and the
2011–2012 Iranian protests. I and other users have been advocating for an umbrella article for some time.
Charles Essie (
talk)
19:54, 5 March 2023 (UTC)
- Exactly Jaredscribe ( talk) 19:58, 5 March 2023 (UTC)
Keep This article does not describe an organization, as mentioned above, but a political movement. It's easily on its way to becoming a broad concept article that organizes the different notable groups and individuals who are working to bring about a regime change in Iran. Joyous! Noise! 21:38, 5 March 2023 (UTC)
- In keeping with the emerging consensus, I have undertaken to
WP:BOLDly move the article by lower-casing its title.
Iranian democracy movement is now what we are talking about, to address the earlier confusion and concerns of the deletion-nominating editor. I'll now move to close the discussion, with a consensus for keep article, oppose deletion. If someone wishes to renominate for deletion, based on new reasons, they may. Regards,
Jaredscribe (
talk)
21:51, 5 March 2023 (UTC)
- Do not close this discussion. You are
WP:INVOLVED and the nominator has not indicated that they are withdrawing. You cannot unilaterally make this decision.
Curbon7 (
talk)
06:10, 6 March 2023 (UTC)
- ok, motion denied Jaredscribe ( talk) 21:27, 6 March 2023 (UTC)
- I think such a move warrants a discussion of its own. After all, the Iranian Green Movement is capitalized despite also being a movement instead of a formal organization. Charles Essie ( talk) 20:36, 6 March 2023 (UTC)
- Do not close this discussion. You are
WP:INVOLVED and the nominator has not indicated that they are withdrawing. You cannot unilaterally make this decision.
Curbon7 (
talk)
06:10, 6 March 2023 (UTC)
- Delete: different parts of this article seem to be
WP:HOAX, and other parts are not notable. Like others are saying, there is indeed a term "Iranian democracy movement" that has been used in the media to describe recent protests in Iran, but this obscure group seems to have expropriated that term as their name (which does not make this group notable). The lead of the article mentions the National Council of Resistance of Iran and People's Mujahedin of Iran as "leading coalition", which is a
hoax. The "Notable dissidents" part mentions individuals that are unrelated to this group. The section "Bibliography" part has a single book from 2011 that does not mention this group. And as the OP said, the group itself has not received any sort of substantial coverage in RS.
ParadaJulio (
talk)
16:18, 6 March 2023 (UTC)
- Again, this isn't a group. Charles Essie ( talk) 16:24, 6 March 2023 (UTC)
- The article promotes this
this group as the "Iranian democracy movement", which is a group that hasn't received any substantial media coverage or has anything to do with either the National Council of Resistance of Iran or People's Mujahedin of Iran (contrary to the hoax claims made in the article). If your argument is that the "Iranian democracy movement" is the protests themselves, then the discussion should be about renaming the protests or merging some of them under an umbrella term.
ParadaJulio (
talk)
16:58, 6 March 2023 (UTC)
- I would definitely recommend that this article be rewritten to provide better coverage of the movement as whole, especially since that group doesn't seem to even be an actual group but rather a meeting of opposition leaders, a meeting that is in fact already covered
here.
Charles Essie (
talk)
20:27, 6 March 2023 (UTC)
- Agreed, I've pioneered the rough draft so far; maybe you should be the one to make the second draft! Jaredscribe ( talk) 00:54, 7 March 2023 (UTC)
- No, that group is not "the movement", that is a 'summit' of political and cultural leaders who got together to discuss "the future of the movement". Jaredscribe ( talk) 04:32, 13 March 2023 (UTC)
- I would definitely recommend that this article be rewritten to provide better coverage of the movement as whole, especially since that group doesn't seem to even be an actual group but rather a meeting of opposition leaders, a meeting that is in fact already covered
here.
Charles Essie (
talk)
20:27, 6 March 2023 (UTC)
- The article promotes this
this group as the "Iranian democracy movement", which is a group that hasn't received any substantial media coverage or has anything to do with either the National Council of Resistance of Iran or People's Mujahedin of Iran (contrary to the hoax claims made in the article). If your argument is that the "Iranian democracy movement" is the protests themselves, then the discussion should be about renaming the protests or merging some of them under an umbrella term.
ParadaJulio (
talk)
16:58, 6 March 2023 (UTC)
- References to the NCRI and MEK are now removed from the lede. It was a mis-understanding that was my fault, not an intentional hoax. I was trying to list the various disparate groups. Someone who is more knowledgeable than I am should do this. Regards, Jaredscribe ( talk) 21:33, 6 March 2023 (UTC)
- I've put the NCRI/MEK into a sub-section under '''Organized Resistance Groups'''. That is a fact, its not a hoax.
- Maryam Rajavi's 10-point plan has been endorsed, most recently in 2023, by the U.S. House of representatives no less, in H.R. 100, “support for the opposition leader Mrs. Maryam Rajavi’s 10-point plan for the future of Iran, which calls for the universal right to vote, free elections, and a market economy, and advocates gender, religious, and ethnic equality, a foreign policy based on peaceful coexistence, and a nonnuclear Iran.” [1]
- The NCRI are clearly leaders.
- Why would you call that a hoax?
Jaredscribe (
talk)
04:27, 13 March 2023 (UTC)
- 222 members of the US House support HR. 100 as of 10 march 2023 Jaredscribe ( talk) 04:29, 13 March 2023 (UTC)
- Delete: There's already an article for the
National Council of Resistance of Iran and its many fronts, as well as articles for the protest movements. This article seems to be about NCRI-backed movement, or meant to present NCRI as the leading opposition force. As such, I don't think it needs a standalone article, since NCRI/MEK are the right place for this.
MarioGom (
talk)
17:56, 6 March 2023 (UTC)
- The NCRI is mentioned in the opening paragraph but this article isn't about them. Charles Essie ( talk) 20:34, 6 March 2023 (UTC)
- Keep The article is not about an organisation and there is nothing about MEK in it now. Plenty of references available in different languages.
Gharouni
Talk
00:03, 7 March 2023 (UTC)
- Can you read and write Farsi? I cannot, nor arabic. Perhaps you can add these references, make translations, link to wikidata items, recruit other Farsi-speaking editors?
- Thank you for you constructive edits to other articles in this subject matter
-
Jaredscribe (
talk)
05:26, 9 March 2023 (UTC)
- @ Jaredscribe: Hi. I am a native Farsi speaker, how can I help? we can discuss on the article's talk page or your/my user talk page. Jeeputer Talk 21:57, 13 March 2023 (UTC)
- @ Gharouni the group at The future of Iran's democracy movement meeting have published their joint charter, and they are now styling themselves the Alliance for Democracy and Freedom in Iran, so so I've proposed renaming that article. See its talk page.
- also @
Jeeputer, see other comment above
Jaredscribe (
talk)
01:59, 18 March 2023 (UTC)
- Thank you! Maybe a the farsi wikipedia is a good first place to start? How is that project organizing this subject matter? Feel free to use the template
- {{ Expand Farsi}} which will produce this
| You can help expand this article with text translated from the corresponding article in Persian. Click [show] for important translation instructions.
|
- The article under scrutiny for deletion IS about the advocacy of democracy in Iran, in response to the protests, which as you say is a complex umbrella term, and we are deferring to how it has been used by notable dissidents and in the media, and calling it the Iranian Democracy Movement - past, present, and possible futures. the article you linked, was the name of the Feb 2023 summit that met to ask about its future. obviously, this is notable enough to warrant a broad concept article. if the crown prince, Reza Pahlavi is meeting to ask about "its" future, with 7 other leaders all notable enough to have their own wikipedia pages, than whatever "it" is is notable enough to both have a future and to have a wikipedia article about it. What "it" is, is the "Iranian Democracy Movement".
- This whole discussion betrays
WP:Systemic bias toward an Anglo-american perspective, as if the Iranian media is of no interest and no import, and unless CNN runs a special there is "no significant" media coverage and we might as well quit. What? We should be better than that.
Jaredscribe (
talk)
01:38, 8 March 2023 (UTC)
- The article seems riddled with original research and strenuous connections with no sources to verify them, or sources that are about a group but not a movement per se (even after I’ve copy-edited it).
JoseJan89 (
talk)
10:45, 8 March 2023 (UTC)
- I had tagged it as there isn't one group called the "IRANIAN DEMOCRACY MOVEMENT", but rather a bunch of people and small groups working towards the same goal. I think that might be the issue, the article can't decide what it's about, one group, or the movement as a social phenomena.
Oaktree b (
talk)
21:35, 8 March 2023 (UTC)
- The supporters of the article have decided what its about - the movement as a social phenomenon. Its detractors the deletionists are still trying to figure out how best to slander it.
Jaredscribe (
talk)
05:29, 9 March 2023 (UTC)
- Actually, they're not trying to figure out anything. They're trying to pretend that they didn't hear what I and several other supporters have repeatedly affirmed.
- Have any of you even read the article's lede sentence?
- "The Iranian Democracy Movement is a political movement consisting of a diverse range of dissidents, political and cultural leaders, and militants working for regime change and proposing possible new constitutional frameworks for Iran."
- If not, why not? And if so, what about this is still unclear to you? Jaredscribe ( talk) 05:38, 9 March 2023 (UTC)
- The supporters of the article have decided what its about - the movement as a social phenomenon. Its detractors the deletionists are still trying to figure out how best to slander it.
Jaredscribe (
talk)
05:29, 9 March 2023 (UTC)
- I restored the previous version, and tagged with
citation needed because yes, sources should be given. Since many sources and citations can be founded on all of those linked articles, lets wait until I or someone does the research and copy-paste. Perhaps you could do something constructive and help out with this? By the way, the
WP:SKYISBLUE. You can tag the section
if you wish Jaredscribe ( talk) 05:32, 9 March 2023 (UTC)- Jaredscribe: I'm trying to help you here, but you're not making it easy. Since your argument is that the article is about a movement (and not about that summit), can you please list the sources that discuss (with substance) the movement? JoseJan89 ( talk) 10:22, 9 March 2023 (UTC)
- I had tagged it as there isn't one group called the "IRANIAN DEMOCRACY MOVEMENT", but rather a bunch of people and small groups working towards the same goal. I think that might be the issue, the article can't decide what it's about, one group, or the movement as a social phenomena.
Oaktree b (
talk)
21:35, 8 March 2023 (UTC)
- The article seems riddled with original research and strenuous connections with no sources to verify them, or sources that are about a group but not a movement per se (even after I’ve copy-edited it).
JoseJan89 (
talk)
10:45, 8 March 2023 (UTC)
- I don't know how you can say that this is '''completely unrelated''', or that a bipartisan resolution is misinformation. This article purports to be a Wikipedia:Broad-concept article that proposes to briefly encapulate exising articles on all the various groups that support some form of democracy, republicanism, or constitutional monarchy as an alternative to the current regime.
- A majority of members of the US House of Representatives backed a “bipartisan resolution” in June 2020 supporting Maryam Rajavi and the NCRI's “call for a secular, democratic Iran” while “condemning Iranian state-sponsored terrorism”. The resolution, backed by 221 lawmakers, gave support to the Rajavi's 10-point plan for Iran's future (which include “a universal right to vote, market economy, and a non-nuclear Iran”) while calling on the prevention of “malign activities of the Iranian regime’s diplomatic missions.” The resolution also called on the U.S. to stand “with the people of Iran who are continuing to hold legitimate and peaceful protests” against the Iranian government. [5] [6] Jaredscribe ( talk) 23:24, 10 March 2023 (UTC)
- Jaredscribe, you keep referencing the NCRI even though they have nothing to do with
Reza Pahlavi, Crown Prince of Iran. "Democracy, republicanism, or constitutional monarchy" are different things. You've created an article consisting of an indiscriminate list of Iranian groups (with different political views) that have nothing to do with one another, and then you made the unsupported assertion that these groups somehow form part of the same "Iranian democracy movement".
ParadaJulio (
talk)
13:03, 11 March 2023 (UTC)
- He has long advocated for free elections to form a constituent assembly that could determine the future form of governance in Iran.
- Spain and Britain are parliamentary democracies that have 'constitutional monarchies'. its not indiscriminate, and these forms of government have much to do with each other, specifically - a constitution and rule of law
Jaredscribe (
talk)
04:12, 13 March 2023 (UTC)
- Which has no bearing on the AfD discussion here. Oaktree b ( talk) 20:09, 13 March 2023 (UTC)
- Jaredscribe, you keep referencing the NCRI even though they have nothing to do with
Reza Pahlavi, Crown Prince of Iran. "Democracy, republicanism, or constitutional monarchy" are different things. You've created an article consisting of an indiscriminate list of Iranian groups (with different political views) that have nothing to do with one another, and then you made the unsupported assertion that these groups somehow form part of the same "Iranian democracy movement".
ParadaJulio (
talk)
13:03, 11 March 2023 (UTC)
References
- ^ "Women, Life, Freedom | History Today". www.historytoday.com. Retrieved 2023-03-04.
-
^ Bijan Ahmadi, Opinion Contributor (2023-02-17).
"From reform to revolution: What is the future of Iran's democracy movement?". The Hill. Retrieved 2023-03-04.
{{ cite web}}:|first=has generic name ( help) -
^ Security, Georgetown Institute for Women, Peace and (2023-02-17).
"The Future of Iran's Democracy Movement". Ms. Magazine. Retrieved 2023-03-04.
{{ cite web}}: CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list ( link) - ^ "How to Support Iran's Democracy Movement". Freedom House. Retrieved 2023-03-04.
- ^ "Majority of House members back resolution supporting Iranian opposition, condemning regime's terror". Fox News. 17 June 2020.
- ^ "'The world is watching': Lawmakers tout bipartisan resolution condemning Iran". 17 June 2020.
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: I see no consensus here with some editors stating this is an important movement and other editors saying some of the content is a hoax. Maybe there will be more clarity after a few more days of consideration.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Liz Read! Talk! 02:53, 12 March 2023 (UTC)
- Delete: per
WP:SYNTH. That different groups want democracy in Iran doesn't mean that they form part of the same movement (or that they want the same kind of "democracy", or are working towards the same objectives). Sources certainly don't cover it that way so it would be
WP:SYNTH to make that assumption.
Poya-P (
talk)
19:05, 12 March 2023 (UTC)
- They are all working toward regime change, that much is established by all the sources. Finding the common denominators between them, as well as the differences, is the role of this article, and that is an appropriate function for an Wikipedia:Encyclopedia.
- The details of the transition differ from the various groups. It is not 'unified', but that doesn't mean its not a movement. I would consider a different name for the article, if someone wishes to propose one. I'm following the designation of these Iranian resistance leaders, as reported in the sources, in calling the article what its now called, the 'Iranian Democracy Movement' - which is something larger than the NCI, the NCRI, the OAIC, or any one political party or dissident group, ,but also comprises them all, and purports to respond the the demands and aspirations of the protestors in Iran
Jaredscribe (
talk)
04:20, 13 March 2023 (UTC)
- This isn't one cohesive group, as much as the media is trying to portray it. We already have articles about the protests and items surrounding it, what's here is basically duplicated in other articles. This is trying to make something out of sources that don't discuss this item.
Oaktree b (
talk)
14:51, 13 March 2023 (UTC)
- I agree that its not a 'cohesive group'. neither i nor the article are portraying it as such.
- Feel free to add content emphasizes the diversity and the lack of unity in 'the movement'.
Jaredscribe (
talk)
18:38, 13 March 2023 (UTC)
- There is none, that's why it's up for deletion debate. Oaktree b ( talk) 20:10, 13 March 2023 (UTC)
- This isn't one cohesive group, as much as the media is trying to portray it. We already have articles about the protests and items surrounding it, what's here is basically duplicated in other articles. This is trying to make something out of sources that don't discuss this item.
Oaktree b (
talk)
14:51, 13 March 2023 (UTC)
- Delete I also don't see any source that supports that these opposing groups are part of a related Iranian Democracy Movement. Looking forward to Jaredscribe'
WP:BLUDGEON-ing reply :) .
Iraniangal777 (
talk)
10:29, 13 March 2023 (UTC)
- I certainly don't want to bludgeon one, trying to instead incise like with a scalpel. this article has grown from 3-4 sources when the deletion process started, and has now grown to over 50. the deletionists it seems were responding to defects in the article itself, rather than to the subject matter itself, of which many of them may have been simply unaware.
- If you see my recent reply to my original vote, above, I am beginning to concur that the article should be renamed so as not to present the impression of a united front. Thoughts? Suggestions? Jaredscribe ( talk) 02:05, 18 March 2023 (UTC)
- Adding 50 sources for topics already covered in other articles and that make no mention of an "Iranian Democracy Movement" doesn't make this article notable. ParadaJulio ( talk) 08:34, 18 March 2023 (UTC)
*Keep As mentioned above, its a movement, not an organization. We could massively re-write the article, but for the most part, the article is notable enough.
Trenton698 (
talk) 01:00, 17 March 2023 (UTC) Blocked as sockpuppet
ParadaJulio (
talk)
08:34, 18 March 2023 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.