- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was keep. After extended time for discussion, there is no reasonable possibility that this will come out other than as a consensus to keep. BD2412 T 00:21, 5 June 2020 (UTC)
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- Gravel Switch, Livingston County, Kentucky ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log · Stats)
- (Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
Railroad switch fails GNG, no evidence of notability. – dlthewave ☎ 02:59, 19 May 2020 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Geography-related deletion discussions. – dlthewave ☎ 02:59, 19 May 2020 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Kentucky-related deletion discussions. – dlthewave ☎ 02:59, 19 May 2020 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Transportation-related deletion discussions. 06:17, 23 May 2020 (UTC)
- Comment: Dlthewave, You should add this to the wikiproject train. I don't know how to add it or I'd do it myself. Normal Op ( talk) 03:10, 19 May 2020 (UTC)
- delete a fairly unremarkable rail spot, originally recorded in WP as a "community" per the usual GNIS misreading of the maps. I'm not seeing the notability other than the usual documentation which is commonly availalbe for many rail locations. Mangoe ( talk) 03:54, 20 May 2020 (UTC)
- Keep or Merge to Grand Rivers, Kentucky#History, as this named place is part its rail/river/crushed stone/dam history.07:26, 20 May 2020 (UTC) (This unsigned !vote was by Djflem) (changed to Keep or merge Djflem ( talk) 09:48, 21 May 2020 (UTC))
- Keep (strong): Meets notability, verifiability, reliable sources, and neutral point of view. The topic meets WP:GNG including significant coverage. Several historical documents mention this area by name, mention where it was, mention what products came from it, and how those products were used. Though the mentions were brief, they were neither trivial nor a passing mention. The sources are reliable, are secondary sources, and are independent of the subject. I'm sure the original reason to PROD or AfD this article was because one could not SEE anything on a current satellite view, and a cursory google search of "gravel switch" brought up nothing. However, now that there has been some researching and article improvement, we've discovered that there are sources, including ample maps, SHOWING that this place was populated, active and commercial. The products from this area were mentioned in several of the citations, along with mentioning the name of this place and where it sits in relation to other known places. That the TVA built a dam and flooded the nearby area, causing the railroads to re-route their line right through the old operating area of Gravel Switch, doesn't negate that the place existed as an area (not simply a railroad switch that has since been removed). As for a merge argument, the article subject doesn't really fit into any other article. I say Keep because the arguments for deletion don't hold water. (Pun intended... because of the new lake.) Normal Op ( talk) 03:21, 21 May 2020 (UTC)
- Re any arguments for merging: Per
Wikipedia:Merging#Reasons for merger, it says "Merging should be avoided if: ... 3. The topics are discrete subjects warranting their own articles, even though they might be short". It has been suggested to merge it with
Grand Rivers, Kentucky however Gravel Switch was not IN Grand Rivers, and still is not in Grand Rivers even though the city limits have been expanded. It was, and still is, in
Livingston County, Kentucky and that would be a better merge target if one needed to be chosen.
Normal Op (
talk)
03:49, 21 May 2020 (UTC)
- IF: It is in Lake City, an unincorporated area (once called Jessup), for which there is no article (though this would work within it). The quarry is the Grand Rivers Quarry; references consistently mention GR; and it's part of the economic history of the "greater" Grand Rivers region. Djflem ( talk) 09:55, 21 May 2020 (UTC)
- Re any arguments for merging: Per
Wikipedia:Merging#Reasons for merger, it says "Merging should be avoided if: ... 3. The topics are discrete subjects warranting their own articles, even though they might be short". It has been suggested to merge it with
Grand Rivers, Kentucky however Gravel Switch was not IN Grand Rivers, and still is not in Grand Rivers even though the city limits have been expanded. It was, and still is, in
Livingston County, Kentucky and that would be a better merge target if one needed to be chosen.
Normal Op (
talk)
03:49, 21 May 2020 (UTC)
- Merge to Grand Rivers, Kentucky. There no requirement whatsoever that content about a city is limited to that only within legal limits: coverage of area geography, businesses, and history is regularly included with the nearest city, and this is the best way to consolidate relevant information for readers, seeing that Grand Rivers is mentioned as the relevant community in sources. Citation review: [1] passing mention, [2] passing mention, [3] does not mention Gravel Switch, [4] database entry about quarry, [5] brief blurb of Grand Rivers quarry as a producer of crushed stone, [6] passing mention of quarry. I am simply baffled how this possibly passes GNG or even WP:V. This article synthesizes together a former rail switch and the quarry terminal now nearby, using original research to claim "Gravel Switch is an area", rather than it just being former name of the spur line and its then-gravel operation as indicated by the sources. There is no evidence at all this is the name of the quarry terminal area or railroad through-line today: the two sources with passing mentions of the spur switch fail to use it that way. Reywas92 Talk 04:28, 22 May 2020 (UTC)
- Comment This is very potentially notable, but there's also a Gravel Switch in Marion County and I want to make sure the heaps of references are for the proper community. Gravel Switch, Marion County has a census designation but Livingston county does not, and [7] describes it as a flag stop. SportingFlyer T· C 06:39, 22 May 2020 (UTC)
- Couple of others of interest: Gannett, Henry, ed. (1906). "A Dictionary of Altitudes in the United States (Department of the Interior USGS Bulletin No. 274)". U.S. Government Printing Office. Retrieved May 21, 2020. & Illinois Central Magazine, vol. 46–47, Illinois Central Magazine, 1957, p. 39 (IC did not run to locale in Marion). Djflem ( talk) 21:58, 22 May 2020 (UTC)
- Keep This fails WP:GEOLAND as it's not a community but probably passes WP:GEOFEAT as a gravel deposit that's been fairly decently covered. Probably a weaker keep, but I see no reason to delete this, given we're a gazetteer. SportingFlyer T· C 04:24, 23 May 2020 (UTC)
- Comment, have added mining wikiproject to article talkpage so that those editors are aware of this afd. Coolabahapple ( talk) 01:45, 24 May 2020 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Black Kite (talk) 22:49, 27 May 2020 (UTC)
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Black Kite (talk) 22:49, 27 May 2020 (UTC)
- Keep per above. -- TheImaCow ( talk) 14:45, 28 May 2020 (UTC)
- Keep, Article needs some more work but deservs to stay or may be merged to Grand Rivers, Kentucky#History. Alex-h ( talk) 09:52, 31 May 2020 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was keep. After extended time for discussion, there is no reasonable possibility that this will come out other than as a consensus to keep. BD2412 T 00:21, 5 June 2020 (UTC)
[Hide this box] New to Articles for deletion (AfD)? Read these primers!
- Gravel Switch, Livingston County, Kentucky ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log · Stats)
- (Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
Railroad switch fails GNG, no evidence of notability. – dlthewave ☎ 02:59, 19 May 2020 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Geography-related deletion discussions. – dlthewave ☎ 02:59, 19 May 2020 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Kentucky-related deletion discussions. – dlthewave ☎ 02:59, 19 May 2020 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Transportation-related deletion discussions. 06:17, 23 May 2020 (UTC)
- Comment: Dlthewave, You should add this to the wikiproject train. I don't know how to add it or I'd do it myself. Normal Op ( talk) 03:10, 19 May 2020 (UTC)
- delete a fairly unremarkable rail spot, originally recorded in WP as a "community" per the usual GNIS misreading of the maps. I'm not seeing the notability other than the usual documentation which is commonly availalbe for many rail locations. Mangoe ( talk) 03:54, 20 May 2020 (UTC)
- Keep or Merge to Grand Rivers, Kentucky#History, as this named place is part its rail/river/crushed stone/dam history.07:26, 20 May 2020 (UTC) (This unsigned !vote was by Djflem) (changed to Keep or merge Djflem ( talk) 09:48, 21 May 2020 (UTC))
- Keep (strong): Meets notability, verifiability, reliable sources, and neutral point of view. The topic meets WP:GNG including significant coverage. Several historical documents mention this area by name, mention where it was, mention what products came from it, and how those products were used. Though the mentions were brief, they were neither trivial nor a passing mention. The sources are reliable, are secondary sources, and are independent of the subject. I'm sure the original reason to PROD or AfD this article was because one could not SEE anything on a current satellite view, and a cursory google search of "gravel switch" brought up nothing. However, now that there has been some researching and article improvement, we've discovered that there are sources, including ample maps, SHOWING that this place was populated, active and commercial. The products from this area were mentioned in several of the citations, along with mentioning the name of this place and where it sits in relation to other known places. That the TVA built a dam and flooded the nearby area, causing the railroads to re-route their line right through the old operating area of Gravel Switch, doesn't negate that the place existed as an area (not simply a railroad switch that has since been removed). As for a merge argument, the article subject doesn't really fit into any other article. I say Keep because the arguments for deletion don't hold water. (Pun intended... because of the new lake.) Normal Op ( talk) 03:21, 21 May 2020 (UTC)
- Re any arguments for merging: Per
Wikipedia:Merging#Reasons for merger, it says "Merging should be avoided if: ... 3. The topics are discrete subjects warranting their own articles, even though they might be short". It has been suggested to merge it with
Grand Rivers, Kentucky however Gravel Switch was not IN Grand Rivers, and still is not in Grand Rivers even though the city limits have been expanded. It was, and still is, in
Livingston County, Kentucky and that would be a better merge target if one needed to be chosen.
Normal Op (
talk)
03:49, 21 May 2020 (UTC)
- IF: It is in Lake City, an unincorporated area (once called Jessup), for which there is no article (though this would work within it). The quarry is the Grand Rivers Quarry; references consistently mention GR; and it's part of the economic history of the "greater" Grand Rivers region. Djflem ( talk) 09:55, 21 May 2020 (UTC)
- Re any arguments for merging: Per
Wikipedia:Merging#Reasons for merger, it says "Merging should be avoided if: ... 3. The topics are discrete subjects warranting their own articles, even though they might be short". It has been suggested to merge it with
Grand Rivers, Kentucky however Gravel Switch was not IN Grand Rivers, and still is not in Grand Rivers even though the city limits have been expanded. It was, and still is, in
Livingston County, Kentucky and that would be a better merge target if one needed to be chosen.
Normal Op (
talk)
03:49, 21 May 2020 (UTC)
- Merge to Grand Rivers, Kentucky. There no requirement whatsoever that content about a city is limited to that only within legal limits: coverage of area geography, businesses, and history is regularly included with the nearest city, and this is the best way to consolidate relevant information for readers, seeing that Grand Rivers is mentioned as the relevant community in sources. Citation review: [1] passing mention, [2] passing mention, [3] does not mention Gravel Switch, [4] database entry about quarry, [5] brief blurb of Grand Rivers quarry as a producer of crushed stone, [6] passing mention of quarry. I am simply baffled how this possibly passes GNG or even WP:V. This article synthesizes together a former rail switch and the quarry terminal now nearby, using original research to claim "Gravel Switch is an area", rather than it just being former name of the spur line and its then-gravel operation as indicated by the sources. There is no evidence at all this is the name of the quarry terminal area or railroad through-line today: the two sources with passing mentions of the spur switch fail to use it that way. Reywas92 Talk 04:28, 22 May 2020 (UTC)
- Comment This is very potentially notable, but there's also a Gravel Switch in Marion County and I want to make sure the heaps of references are for the proper community. Gravel Switch, Marion County has a census designation but Livingston county does not, and [7] describes it as a flag stop. SportingFlyer T· C 06:39, 22 May 2020 (UTC)
- Couple of others of interest: Gannett, Henry, ed. (1906). "A Dictionary of Altitudes in the United States (Department of the Interior USGS Bulletin No. 274)". U.S. Government Printing Office. Retrieved May 21, 2020. & Illinois Central Magazine, vol. 46–47, Illinois Central Magazine, 1957, p. 39 (IC did not run to locale in Marion). Djflem ( talk) 21:58, 22 May 2020 (UTC)
- Keep This fails WP:GEOLAND as it's not a community but probably passes WP:GEOFEAT as a gravel deposit that's been fairly decently covered. Probably a weaker keep, but I see no reason to delete this, given we're a gazetteer. SportingFlyer T· C 04:24, 23 May 2020 (UTC)
- Comment, have added mining wikiproject to article talkpage so that those editors are aware of this afd. Coolabahapple ( talk) 01:45, 24 May 2020 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Black Kite (talk) 22:49, 27 May 2020 (UTC)
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Black Kite (talk) 22:49, 27 May 2020 (UTC)
- Keep per above. -- TheImaCow ( talk) 14:45, 28 May 2020 (UTC)
- Keep, Article needs some more work but deservs to stay or may be merged to Grand Rivers, Kentucky#History. Alex-h ( talk) 09:52, 31 May 2020 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.