The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was No consensus to delete. BD2412 T 02:43, 23 February 2020 (UTC) reply

Grand Hotel Cirta (  | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log · Stats)

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Appears to be a non-notable hotel with no reason to be included in WP above and beyond thousands of other hotels. Cardiffbear88 ( talk) 22:46, 28 January 2020 (UTC) reply

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Africa-related deletion discussions. Shellwood ( talk) 22:50, 28 January 2020 (UTC) reply

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Architecture-related deletion discussions. Coolabahapple ( talk) 07:21, 29 January 2020 (UTC) reply

Keep There's thousands of non notable hotels but this ain't one of them. A notable colonial building in a major Algerian city. Adequately sourced and appropriate for hotels, hardly advertises it. Should be further coverage in Algerian newspapers in Arabic.♦ Dr. Blofeld 06:14, 31 January 2020 (UTC) reply

Thanks Dr. Blofeld, can you explain to me what makes it more notable than other hotels? Currently the sources nor the article explain what makes this a notable hotel above any others. Thanks. Cardiffbear88 ( talk) 21:52, 3 February 2020 (UTC) reply

• Keep per Dr. Blofield. -- Doncram ( talk) 17:27, 16 February 2020 (UTC) reply

@ Cardiffbear88 It's notable architecturally [1] , aside from being one of the top hotels of one of the biggest cities in a country. ♦ Dr. Blofeld 17:38, 17 February 2020 (UTC) reply

Thanks @ Dr. Blofeld - if you have time could you perhaps integrate some of this information into the article? My French isn’t good enough to extract it from this article accurately. At the moment I don’t feel there’s any notable information about the hotel’s architecture, for example.

The photo in that source from 2018 establishes the architectural significance of the hotel well enough for me. My French language skill is imperfect but I gather from reading the article in French that there is legal dispute about permitting during major renovation of hotel. A Google translation into English of the article is incomplete (drops some sections where pictures or picture captions obscure the main text) for me, but it seems:

• the hotel consists of two buildings built in 1910 and 1923, on 3 hectares (7.4 acres)
• the present owners bought the hotel in 2014(?) and/or began the major rehabilitation in 2014(?) with terms approved by the Algerian national government(?), or by other means an understanding was created, which:

a) involved a 40 million Euro subsidy by the Algerian state for the major rehabilitation and set a scope of work for the project which included closing a portion of road, the "upper part of Rahmani Achour Street to the SIH", whatever the SIH is. The permanent road closure is essential to the project for allowing proper security of the hotel's entranceway. (I suspect they are trying to make it secure to avoid vehicle bombing of the entranceway, as has happened at a number of high end hotels in the Middle East)

b) which the local mayor and government of Constantine are not going along with, refusing to allow the closure of the road, and stating that the access "is critical for the city and especially for the population who live on Rahmani Achour street"

• the rehabilitation combines the two historic buildings, adds swimming pools (plural) and administrative space extensions, yielding a hotel having "54 luxurious rooms, 26 diplomatic suites, and a presidential one".
• The rehabilitation also installed "modern fire safety systems while retaining its Arab-Moorish architectural aspect."
• Completion of the rehab, including achieving security for the entranceway, was required for the hotel to obtain or to keep "Autograph label" which is a certification or branding that I think must be necessary for diplomats or other high-end clients to be willing to stay there [apparently this is Autograph Collection label].

The rehabilitation seemed to be mostly complete, with funds wholly or mostly spent. The contractor(s) were obligated to complete the project by December 31, 2018, but were blocked by the local government's actions.

IMHO the scope of the rehab and the involvement of national government and conflict with the local government make the project and this hotel more significant than it would have been already.

IMHO there must exist local and off-line sources about the hotel in its long history, and there will have been historic coverage of important events/people staying there, as well as coverage of the design/architecture of the buildings.

I am curious what happened, did the hotel get opened; it seems like it would have been resolved by now, in February 2020. Perhaps it did not get opened, or it is not marketed to the general public, because hotel search websites like this one about top Constantine hotels do not cover it.

Hope this partial summary of that article and comments help somewhat. -- Doncram ( talk) 19:15, 18 February 2020 (UTC) reply

@ Doncram Whilst this is useful, we need to find independent secondary sources to prove that there is a consensus that the hotel is architecturally significant. Our interpretation of a photo accompanying a primary source is not sufficient to demonstrate notability. Cardiffbear88 ( talk) 20:02, 18 February 2020 (UTC) reply

That dismissal grossly misunderstands my posting. -- Doncram ( talk) 20:10, 18 February 2020 (UTC) reply

@ Doncram the SIH is the hotel investment company. Mccapra ( talk) 06:36, 19 February 2020 (UTC) reply

• Comment about another hotel: Constantine is city also known as Cirta. Searching more broadly on "Constantine Algeria hotel architecture" yields this source by Myrtha pools company about their multiple-pools project at Constantine Marriott Hotel (a different, 5-star, peer hotel), and this source by architect of renovations at that hotel, which covers its architecture and amenities and size in text and photos. The architect or contractor was Fabris & Partners of Latisana, Italy. Fabris & Partners' website offers up this coverage of the hotel in Compasses architectural magazine, issue 28, in 2018. The Constantine Marriott Hotel seems clearly notable to me. It is not covered in Wikipedia's List of hotels or specifically List of hotels in Algeria (new redirect). -- Doncram ( talk) 19:37, 18 February 2020 (UTC) reply

@ Doncram This is outside of the scope of an AfD debate, which can only ever be about deleting one page or a series of related pages. Have a look at WP:AFC for information about how to nominate a topic for a new article. Cardiffbear88 ( talk) 20:02, 18 February 2020 (UTC) reply

• Comment about commenting in AFDs. I have posted this in another AFD: IMO it gets tedious if an editor comments in response to every single other comment made which does not perfectly agree with the editor's stated position. Maybe it is more tedious if the editor is the deletion nominator. It is also more tedious if the editor does not concede an iota, ever, about any point at all, IMO. Please let a consensus emerge from others' discussion. -- Doncram ( talk) 20:10, 18 February 2020 (UTC) reply

@ Doncram You are welcome to explore my contributions and see for yourself - I don’t make a habit of commenting endlessly on AfDs, trust me. However, I’m afraid your most recent comments have highlighted significant misunderstandings in the AfD process which I thought I was being courteous to alert you to. I don’t really have a strong opinion either way whether the article stays or goes, but I do want the decision to be based on the facts and not bluster. Cardiffbear88 ( talk) 20:14, 18 February 2020 (UTC) reply

• Keep the hotel and its restoration are the subject of national news 1, 2 and 3. The architecture seems interesting but I’m not sure that it’s so distinctive that it would establish notability on its own. Mccapra ( talk) 06:51, 19 February 2020 (UTC) reply
• Delete: First off, the article makes no claim of notability. It says basically that it's a hotel, but nothing about why it's different from any other hotel. And yes, AfD isn't for cleanup, but an article has to make a credible claim of notability. The comment here that it's "one of" the "top" hotels in "one of" the biggest cities is really vague. What does "top" mean? One of how many top hotels? So basically it's a big hotel in the third largest city in Algeria. That doesn't make it notable.

Secondly, the article has a strongly promotional character. It lists the rooms in the hotel, which is normal in an advertisement, but not in an encyclopedia article of this size, and it quotes marketing-style descriptions from travel sites. -- Slashme ( talk) 10:28, 20 February 2020 (UTC) reply

• Comment: The nominator has said, "I don’t really have a strong opinion either way whether the article stays or goes..." which seems to indicate that he/she might not feel as strongly about the nomination to delete anymore. Please correct me if I am misinterpreting your comment, Cardiffbear88. Dflaw4 ( talk) 06:35, 21 February 2020 (UTC) reply

@ Dflaw4 having looked at all of the evidence presented in this debate I’m still not convinced that the subject is in any way notable. I don’t believe any of the !keep editors so far have provided independent secondary sources that demonstrate notability above and beyond any hotel in any guide book. Particularly the argument about architectural significance, which needs secondary evidence and not our interpretation of a photo.

Having said that, I’m not going to go into edit wars or argue about it incessantly on here with anyone who disagrees, as some might have suggested previously. I’m not going to renominate it, or flag it elsewhere for deletion, if this forum believes it should be kept. However, as of yet I’m not convinced of the arguments still. Cardiffbear88 ( talk) 07:38, 21 February 2020 (UTC) reply

• Cardiffbear88, that's perfectly fair enough, and I appreciate your clarification! Unfortunately, I don't feel as though I'm well-versed enough in this area to vote and to help resolve the debate, but I did feel that I should ask you, as the nominator, how you were feeling in view of your comment. Thanks, Dflaw4 ( talk) 07:45, 21 February 2020 (UTC) reply

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.