- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was Userfy. Once the article clearly shows notability, it can be moved back to main space, preferably by an admin (not necessarily me, any admin will do). Randykitty ( talk) 18:38, 29 December 2014 (UTC)
Frederic D. Price
- Frederic D. Price ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log · Stats)
- (Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
Two possible sources of notability for this individual:
- 1. As a former pharmaceutical exec. Sources for this career appear to be direct or regurgitated press releases which do not satisfy the "significant coverage", "reliable", and "independent" aspects of WP:GNG.
- 2. As the founder of the publishing company Fig Tree Books, a company that has yet to publish anything. There was a consensus at a recent AFD discussion to remove the Fig Tree Books article from the mainspace.
Assuming notability is not established by the pharmaceutical career, can a subject derive notability from an organization whose article was removed from the mainspace by consensus for not being notable?
If this looks familiar, welcome back :) Shall we salt the article on Michelle Caplan? (She is editor-in-chief of Fig Tree Books) ;) Vrac ( talk) 14:48, 21 December 2014 (UTC) Vrac ( talk) 14:48, 21 December 2014 (UTC)
- Note: This debate has been included in the list of Businesspeople-related deletion discussions. Everymorning talk 14:53, 21 December 2014 (UTC)
- Delete - No reliable independent sources. There's not even a fig leaf to cover this rewarmed previously deleted article. Smallbones( smalltalk) 14:59, 21 December 2014 (UTC)
- Frederic D. Price has not been deleted before. Cunard ( talk) 04:31, 23 December 2014 (UTC)
- Note: This debate has been included in the list of United States of America-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k ( talk) 18:20, 21 December 2014 (UTC)
- Delete and perhaps Salt if it has indeed been created and deleted before. ZappyGun (talk to me) What I've done for Wikipedia 18:22, 21 December 2014 (UTC)
- Keep per the significant coverage in multiple independent
reliable sources.
Wikipedia:Notability (people)#Basic criteria says:
The Marin Independent Journal article provides substantial coverage, while the other sources can be "combined to demonstrate notability".If the depth of coverage in any given source is not substantial, then multiple independent sources may be combined to demonstrate notability; trivial coverage of a subject by secondary sources may not be sufficient to establish notability.
Globes notes that Price is "known as an executive who saves troubled companies".
Frederic D. Price was the CEO of BioMarin Pharmaceutical between February 2000 and August 2004. He was the CEO of Applied Microbiology in 1996. (See The New York Times's article about the company, where Price is extensively quoted.)
Price was a Vice President of Pfizer between 1973 and 1986 and the Vice President of Finance and Administration and CFO of Regeneron between 1991 and 1994. He served as the chairman of Omrix Pharmaceuticals between 2004 and 2008 and chairman and CEO of Chiasma between 2008 and 2013.
- Welte, Jim (2004-08-14).
"Marin drug firm's chief resigns".
Marin Independent Journal. Archived from
the original on 2014-12-20. Retrieved 2014-12-20.
The article notes:
BioMarin Pharmaceutical Inc. Chairman and CEO Fredric D. Price resigned from his post yesterday, saying he was relocating to the East Coast to be with his family, which remained in New York's Westchester County when Price took the job in February 2000.
...
"It is difficult for me to leave, but personally, with my family on the East Coast, it is appropriate for me to relocate there," Price said.
Company officials hailed Price's role in leading the company in the midst of a long and financially turbulent transition from a research and development organization into a drugmaker with two products on the market and a third up for approval within a year.
"We wish Fred the best of luck in his future endeavors and thank him for his significant contributions," Lapalme said.
Price joined the firm in February 2000 to replace longtime friend and colleague Grant Denison Jr., who co-founded BioMarin in 1997. The pair met in 1973 and worked together for 13 years at Pfizer Pharmaceuticals in New York City.
- Weinreb, Gail (2012-07-23).
"Drug delivery co Chiasma raises $38.5m".
Globes. Archived from
the original on 2014-12-20. Retrieved 2014-12-20.
The article notes:
The restructuring included the bringing in of Fredric Price as chairman and CEO. He previously held several top positions in the life sciences industry, including chairman of Omrix Pharmaceuticals and BioMarin Pharmaceutical Inc. (Nasdaq: BMRN). Together with Chiasma COO Dr. Roni Mamluk, who invented the company's technology, the company changed its technology and business model and embarked on a new road.
- Chartrand, Sabra (1996-10-21).
"A company has found protein compounds that could join antibiotics in fighting infections".
The New York Times. Archived from
the original on 2014-12-23. Retrieved 2014-12-22.
The article notes:
Price is quoted extensively in the article."There is bug called Lactococcus lactis, and as the name implies, it is found in milk," Frederic Price, the chief executive of Applied Microbiology, said. "This bug secrets a peptide, or a small protein, called nisin. Nisin's sole function in life is to act like an artillery shell and kill all other bugs that want to kill its mother. So we asked, why not try to develop nisin to kill bugs found in people? Or in food?"
- Weinreb, Gail (2013-12-05).
"Chiasma fires one-third of workforce".
Globes. Archived from
the original on 2014-12-23. Retrieved 2014-12-22.
The article notes:
Chiasma CEO Frederic Price has been appointed as chairman, and Dr. Roni Mamluk, who invented the company's technology, has taken over as CEO. Price is known as an executive who saves troubled companies, and Chiasma's investors apparently decided that his rescue skills are needed in more than one place.
- Williams, Wilda (2014-09-23).
"A New Year, a New Publisher: Fig Tree Books".
Library Journal. Archived from
the original on 2014-12-20. Retrieved 2014-12-20.
The article notes:
Launched by Fredric Price, a successful drug developer with a deep interest in Jewish literature, Fig Tree plans to eventually publish in both print and digital editions about a dozen novels a year, both original works and re-releases of beloved classics that have either gone out of print or have never been available as an ebook.
- Picci, Joe (1993-06-25).
"Biotechnology: A Promising, Risky Business".
Times Union. Archived from
the original on 2014-12-23. Retrieved 2014-12-22.
The article notes:
Price is quoted extensively in the article.Big ifs do exist, admits Frederic D. Price, Regeneron's chief financial officer. "The product has to pass the test of safety and efficacy," said Price. "It can't harm people and it has to help them."
- Welte, Jim (2004-08-14).
"Marin drug firm's chief resigns".
Marin Independent Journal. Archived from
the original on 2014-12-20. Retrieved 2014-12-20.
- Delete or userfy This article was created by Cunard four days ago, and from Cunard's responses here one can surmise that it is not yet completed. I do not anticipate that the article will meeting WP standards for BLPs, but I think we should give it a bit more time so that Cunard can at least present a mature entry. It may also be advisable to hold judgment until the publishing adventure has had an opportunity to publish. LaMona ( talk) 02:34, 25 December 2014 (UTC)
- I agree that the article is not yet completed (as is all of Wikipedia) because
Wikipedia is a work in progress.
The article does not violate Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons. It is offensive to suggest that I would create an article that violates BLP. Please be specific about why you think the article violates BLP.
I have maintained in my response above that the subject passes Wikipedia:Notability (people)#Basic criteria: "If the depth of coverage in any given source is not substantial, then multiple independent sources may be combined to demonstrate notability; trivial coverage of a subject by secondary sources may not be sufficient to establish notability." Cunard ( talk) 04:19, 25 December 2014 (UTC)
- Cunard, if that above comment was directed at me, let me be clear that nothing I said should be interpreted as saying that the article "violates BLP". I'm not convinced that the person measures up to notability, however. None of the articles that you cite here are about him, but instead are about companies he has been involved with. They include almost no information about him as a person. They also are not strong publications. But I still am willing to give it more times so that you can find stronger resources. LaMona ( talk) 02:56, 26 December 2014 (UTC)
- I interpreted "I do not anticipate that the article will meeting WP standards for BLPs" as your saying that the article violated BLP. Thank you for your clarification that you did not mean that the article violated BLP.
Regarding your comment that these are "not strong publications": How do any of the sources I have listed violate Wikipedia:Identifying reliable sources#News organizations? All of the sources I have listed are "well-established news outlets". If a secondary source does not violate Wikipedia:Identifying reliable sources, it can be used to establish notability. This is consistent with Wikipedia:Notability and Wikipedia:Notability (people).
The article from Marin Independent Journal provides nontrivial coverage about Price's career:
- His family is from New York's Westchester County.
- He relocated to California without his family to become the charmain and CEO of BioMarin Pharmaceutical.
- He served in that position from served February 2000 and August 2004.
- Under his leadership, the company transitioned from a research and development organization to a drugmaker with two drugs on the market and a third pending approval.
- He said he left that position to rejoin his family on the East Coast.
- He previously worked in New York City at Pfizer Pharmaceuticals.
- He met the previous CEO of BioMarin at Pfizer, where they worked together for 13 years.
These sources are not merely "about companies he has been involved with". They do not "include almost no information about him as a person". The sources can be "combined to demonstrate notability" as per Wikipedia:Notability (people)#Basic criteria.
- Cunard, I don't see notability as being a mechanical counting up of sources, otherwise we could send bots out to create WP articles. To me, it matters what the sources say, and nothing here, to my mind, says much. I also don't see anything that would be the "precipitating moment" for the creation of a WP article, so I'm wondering how he came to your attention and why you thought he should have an article. (BTW, I've written for Library Journal and I know that they have neither reporters nor fact-checkers, so the "successful drug developer..." will have undoubtedly come from whatever promotional material he sent them.) LaMona ( talk) 15:17, 26 December 2014 (UTC)
- Library Journal has editorial oversight per http://reviews.libraryjournal.com/about/lj-reviews-editorial-contacts/. That satisfies Wikipedia:Identifying reliable sources. It is clear we will not agree on the depth of coverage provided by Marin Independent Journal. It is clear that we will not agree on Wikipedia:Notability (people)#Basic criteria's allowing sources to be "combined to demonstrate notability". We will have to agree to disagree. Cunard ( talk) 03:48, 27 December 2014 (UTC)
- Library Journal is a reliable source for library information, but not for verifiability that a person has been successful in business in a previous time - especially since that was a throw-away line in a short article about the publishing venture. I would still like an answer to my question about your interest in this, because it seems quite obvious to me that it would make sense to wait (at least one year, maybe two) until the publishing house has had a chance to prove itself and then create a page for it. Even if the publishing house is successful, I don't see Price as notable as an individual. He's a successful businessman, and has now invested in publishing. Why not wait?
LaMona (
talk) 16:00, 27 December 2014 (UTC)
- Not following this conversation, but want to add that Library Journal is not a good source for outstanding claims (for the reasons LaMona already elaborated). Yes, the site is used as a reliable source, but I wouldn't base an article's notability on a claim made via that publication.
czar
⨹ 17:34, 28 December 2014 (UTC)
- Not following this conversation, but want to add that Library Journal is not a good source for outstanding claims (for the reasons LaMona already elaborated). Yes, the site is used as a reliable source, but I wouldn't base an article's notability on a claim made via that publication.
- I interpreted "I do not anticipate that the article will meeting WP standards for BLPs" as your saying that the article violated BLP. Thank you for your clarification that you did not mean that the article violated BLP.
- I agree that the article is not yet completed (as is all of Wikipedia) because
Wikipedia is a work in progress.
- Delete or userfy. Half of the article is about Fig Tree Books; the other article says he worked for a pharm co. Nothing notable here. Jsharpminor ( talk) 04:11, 29 December 2014 (UTC)
- Userfy There's absolutely no harm in moving this to User:Cunard/Frederic D. Price. I'd do it myself but I fear villagers with pitchforks :) Dusti *Let's talk!* 06:15, 29 December 2014 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was Userfy. Once the article clearly shows notability, it can be moved back to main space, preferably by an admin (not necessarily me, any admin will do). Randykitty ( talk) 18:38, 29 December 2014 (UTC)
Frederic D. Price
- Frederic D. Price ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log · Stats)
- (Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
Two possible sources of notability for this individual:
- 1. As a former pharmaceutical exec. Sources for this career appear to be direct or regurgitated press releases which do not satisfy the "significant coverage", "reliable", and "independent" aspects of WP:GNG.
- 2. As the founder of the publishing company Fig Tree Books, a company that has yet to publish anything. There was a consensus at a recent AFD discussion to remove the Fig Tree Books article from the mainspace.
Assuming notability is not established by the pharmaceutical career, can a subject derive notability from an organization whose article was removed from the mainspace by consensus for not being notable?
If this looks familiar, welcome back :) Shall we salt the article on Michelle Caplan? (She is editor-in-chief of Fig Tree Books) ;) Vrac ( talk) 14:48, 21 December 2014 (UTC) Vrac ( talk) 14:48, 21 December 2014 (UTC)
- Note: This debate has been included in the list of Businesspeople-related deletion discussions. Everymorning talk 14:53, 21 December 2014 (UTC)
- Delete - No reliable independent sources. There's not even a fig leaf to cover this rewarmed previously deleted article. Smallbones( smalltalk) 14:59, 21 December 2014 (UTC)
- Frederic D. Price has not been deleted before. Cunard ( talk) 04:31, 23 December 2014 (UTC)
- Note: This debate has been included in the list of United States of America-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k ( talk) 18:20, 21 December 2014 (UTC)
- Delete and perhaps Salt if it has indeed been created and deleted before. ZappyGun (talk to me) What I've done for Wikipedia 18:22, 21 December 2014 (UTC)
- Keep per the significant coverage in multiple independent
reliable sources.
Wikipedia:Notability (people)#Basic criteria says:
The Marin Independent Journal article provides substantial coverage, while the other sources can be "combined to demonstrate notability".If the depth of coverage in any given source is not substantial, then multiple independent sources may be combined to demonstrate notability; trivial coverage of a subject by secondary sources may not be sufficient to establish notability.
Globes notes that Price is "known as an executive who saves troubled companies".
Frederic D. Price was the CEO of BioMarin Pharmaceutical between February 2000 and August 2004. He was the CEO of Applied Microbiology in 1996. (See The New York Times's article about the company, where Price is extensively quoted.)
Price was a Vice President of Pfizer between 1973 and 1986 and the Vice President of Finance and Administration and CFO of Regeneron between 1991 and 1994. He served as the chairman of Omrix Pharmaceuticals between 2004 and 2008 and chairman and CEO of Chiasma between 2008 and 2013.
- Welte, Jim (2004-08-14).
"Marin drug firm's chief resigns".
Marin Independent Journal. Archived from
the original on 2014-12-20. Retrieved 2014-12-20.
The article notes:
BioMarin Pharmaceutical Inc. Chairman and CEO Fredric D. Price resigned from his post yesterday, saying he was relocating to the East Coast to be with his family, which remained in New York's Westchester County when Price took the job in February 2000.
...
"It is difficult for me to leave, but personally, with my family on the East Coast, it is appropriate for me to relocate there," Price said.
Company officials hailed Price's role in leading the company in the midst of a long and financially turbulent transition from a research and development organization into a drugmaker with two products on the market and a third up for approval within a year.
"We wish Fred the best of luck in his future endeavors and thank him for his significant contributions," Lapalme said.
Price joined the firm in February 2000 to replace longtime friend and colleague Grant Denison Jr., who co-founded BioMarin in 1997. The pair met in 1973 and worked together for 13 years at Pfizer Pharmaceuticals in New York City.
- Weinreb, Gail (2012-07-23).
"Drug delivery co Chiasma raises $38.5m".
Globes. Archived from
the original on 2014-12-20. Retrieved 2014-12-20.
The article notes:
The restructuring included the bringing in of Fredric Price as chairman and CEO. He previously held several top positions in the life sciences industry, including chairman of Omrix Pharmaceuticals and BioMarin Pharmaceutical Inc. (Nasdaq: BMRN). Together with Chiasma COO Dr. Roni Mamluk, who invented the company's technology, the company changed its technology and business model and embarked on a new road.
- Chartrand, Sabra (1996-10-21).
"A company has found protein compounds that could join antibiotics in fighting infections".
The New York Times. Archived from
the original on 2014-12-23. Retrieved 2014-12-22.
The article notes:
Price is quoted extensively in the article."There is bug called Lactococcus lactis, and as the name implies, it is found in milk," Frederic Price, the chief executive of Applied Microbiology, said. "This bug secrets a peptide, or a small protein, called nisin. Nisin's sole function in life is to act like an artillery shell and kill all other bugs that want to kill its mother. So we asked, why not try to develop nisin to kill bugs found in people? Or in food?"
- Weinreb, Gail (2013-12-05).
"Chiasma fires one-third of workforce".
Globes. Archived from
the original on 2014-12-23. Retrieved 2014-12-22.
The article notes:
Chiasma CEO Frederic Price has been appointed as chairman, and Dr. Roni Mamluk, who invented the company's technology, has taken over as CEO. Price is known as an executive who saves troubled companies, and Chiasma's investors apparently decided that his rescue skills are needed in more than one place.
- Williams, Wilda (2014-09-23).
"A New Year, a New Publisher: Fig Tree Books".
Library Journal. Archived from
the original on 2014-12-20. Retrieved 2014-12-20.
The article notes:
Launched by Fredric Price, a successful drug developer with a deep interest in Jewish literature, Fig Tree plans to eventually publish in both print and digital editions about a dozen novels a year, both original works and re-releases of beloved classics that have either gone out of print or have never been available as an ebook.
- Picci, Joe (1993-06-25).
"Biotechnology: A Promising, Risky Business".
Times Union. Archived from
the original on 2014-12-23. Retrieved 2014-12-22.
The article notes:
Price is quoted extensively in the article.Big ifs do exist, admits Frederic D. Price, Regeneron's chief financial officer. "The product has to pass the test of safety and efficacy," said Price. "It can't harm people and it has to help them."
- Welte, Jim (2004-08-14).
"Marin drug firm's chief resigns".
Marin Independent Journal. Archived from
the original on 2014-12-20. Retrieved 2014-12-20.
- Delete or userfy This article was created by Cunard four days ago, and from Cunard's responses here one can surmise that it is not yet completed. I do not anticipate that the article will meeting WP standards for BLPs, but I think we should give it a bit more time so that Cunard can at least present a mature entry. It may also be advisable to hold judgment until the publishing adventure has had an opportunity to publish. LaMona ( talk) 02:34, 25 December 2014 (UTC)
- I agree that the article is not yet completed (as is all of Wikipedia) because
Wikipedia is a work in progress.
The article does not violate Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons. It is offensive to suggest that I would create an article that violates BLP. Please be specific about why you think the article violates BLP.
I have maintained in my response above that the subject passes Wikipedia:Notability (people)#Basic criteria: "If the depth of coverage in any given source is not substantial, then multiple independent sources may be combined to demonstrate notability; trivial coverage of a subject by secondary sources may not be sufficient to establish notability." Cunard ( talk) 04:19, 25 December 2014 (UTC)
- Cunard, if that above comment was directed at me, let me be clear that nothing I said should be interpreted as saying that the article "violates BLP". I'm not convinced that the person measures up to notability, however. None of the articles that you cite here are about him, but instead are about companies he has been involved with. They include almost no information about him as a person. They also are not strong publications. But I still am willing to give it more times so that you can find stronger resources. LaMona ( talk) 02:56, 26 December 2014 (UTC)
- I interpreted "I do not anticipate that the article will meeting WP standards for BLPs" as your saying that the article violated BLP. Thank you for your clarification that you did not mean that the article violated BLP.
Regarding your comment that these are "not strong publications": How do any of the sources I have listed violate Wikipedia:Identifying reliable sources#News organizations? All of the sources I have listed are "well-established news outlets". If a secondary source does not violate Wikipedia:Identifying reliable sources, it can be used to establish notability. This is consistent with Wikipedia:Notability and Wikipedia:Notability (people).
The article from Marin Independent Journal provides nontrivial coverage about Price's career:
- His family is from New York's Westchester County.
- He relocated to California without his family to become the charmain and CEO of BioMarin Pharmaceutical.
- He served in that position from served February 2000 and August 2004.
- Under his leadership, the company transitioned from a research and development organization to a drugmaker with two drugs on the market and a third pending approval.
- He said he left that position to rejoin his family on the East Coast.
- He previously worked in New York City at Pfizer Pharmaceuticals.
- He met the previous CEO of BioMarin at Pfizer, where they worked together for 13 years.
These sources are not merely "about companies he has been involved with". They do not "include almost no information about him as a person". The sources can be "combined to demonstrate notability" as per Wikipedia:Notability (people)#Basic criteria.
- Cunard, I don't see notability as being a mechanical counting up of sources, otherwise we could send bots out to create WP articles. To me, it matters what the sources say, and nothing here, to my mind, says much. I also don't see anything that would be the "precipitating moment" for the creation of a WP article, so I'm wondering how he came to your attention and why you thought he should have an article. (BTW, I've written for Library Journal and I know that they have neither reporters nor fact-checkers, so the "successful drug developer..." will have undoubtedly come from whatever promotional material he sent them.) LaMona ( talk) 15:17, 26 December 2014 (UTC)
- Library Journal has editorial oversight per http://reviews.libraryjournal.com/about/lj-reviews-editorial-contacts/. That satisfies Wikipedia:Identifying reliable sources. It is clear we will not agree on the depth of coverage provided by Marin Independent Journal. It is clear that we will not agree on Wikipedia:Notability (people)#Basic criteria's allowing sources to be "combined to demonstrate notability". We will have to agree to disagree. Cunard ( talk) 03:48, 27 December 2014 (UTC)
- Library Journal is a reliable source for library information, but not for verifiability that a person has been successful in business in a previous time - especially since that was a throw-away line in a short article about the publishing venture. I would still like an answer to my question about your interest in this, because it seems quite obvious to me that it would make sense to wait (at least one year, maybe two) until the publishing house has had a chance to prove itself and then create a page for it. Even if the publishing house is successful, I don't see Price as notable as an individual. He's a successful businessman, and has now invested in publishing. Why not wait?
LaMona (
talk) 16:00, 27 December 2014 (UTC)
- Not following this conversation, but want to add that Library Journal is not a good source for outstanding claims (for the reasons LaMona already elaborated). Yes, the site is used as a reliable source, but I wouldn't base an article's notability on a claim made via that publication.
czar
⨹ 17:34, 28 December 2014 (UTC)
- Not following this conversation, but want to add that Library Journal is not a good source for outstanding claims (for the reasons LaMona already elaborated). Yes, the site is used as a reliable source, but I wouldn't base an article's notability on a claim made via that publication.
- I interpreted "I do not anticipate that the article will meeting WP standards for BLPs" as your saying that the article violated BLP. Thank you for your clarification that you did not mean that the article violated BLP.
- I agree that the article is not yet completed (as is all of Wikipedia) because
Wikipedia is a work in progress.
- Delete or userfy. Half of the article is about Fig Tree Books; the other article says he worked for a pharm co. Nothing notable here. Jsharpminor ( talk) 04:11, 29 December 2014 (UTC)
- Userfy There's absolutely no harm in moving this to User:Cunard/Frederic D. Price. I'd do it myself but I fear villagers with pitchforks :) Dusti *Let's talk!* 06:15, 29 December 2014 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.