The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's
talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
Although this article is well written and sourced, there seems no evidence that Ella German is sufficiently notable for her own article. She would not pass the specific guidance in
WP:BIO and there is nothing in the sources currently cited to indicate that
WP:GNG are met either as she has apparently had no sustained coverage in her own right. In essence, the article depicts her as notable only because of her links to Oswald which raises obvious issues of
WP:NOTINHERIT. —Brigade Piron (
talk)
14:54, 27 July 2020 (UTC)reply
Keep. While she may indeed have only become notable due to being related to someone precipitating one event, that particular event was profoundly damaging to the American psyche and relatively rare in American history. Had she been one of a string of girlfriends that had come and gone I would be more inclined to agree that she may not deserve her own article, but the fact is that she even appears in the
Warren Commission’s report and if they felt she was notable enough for examination, I would concur. It is possible that this relationship had affected Oswald’s mental state in his decision to return to the United States and exploring that relationship deserves more than a byline in that article. I would also be very interested in seeing more existing references put into her article as the majority of them come from one or two books at present.
LovelyLillith (
talk)
08:13, 31 July 2020 (UTC)reply
No-one has denied that the Kennedy assassination and Oswald are notable which is basically what we can deduce from the Warren Commission report. The question is whether Ella German independently meets the requirements in
WP:GNG or
WP:BIO in light of
WP:NOTINHERIT. I'd also suggest
WP:NOTEVERYTHING is relevant. —Brigade Piron (
talk)
10:28, 31 July 2020 (UTC)reply
It isn't at all, but I can't tell you what the above sounds like to you--only you can do that. And if the assassination of a major head of state is not a defining event, perhaps your list of the defining events of the 20th century includes only World Wars I and II...
Caro7200 (
talk)
20:39, 9 August 2020 (UTC)reply
I'm not sure we'd be having this discussion about an ex-girlfriend of the culprit of the
Assassination of Olof Palme, but there is an obvious subjective quality to the most important events of the 20th century. There is still no reason to wave the long-established policy of
WP:NOTINHERIT just because the INHERITOR is particularly noteworthy. It's the sort of argument that would permit every soldier of
World War I and
World War II to have their own WP biography. —Brigade Piron (
talk)
13:14, 11 August 2020 (UTC)reply
As I wrote, I don't think this is a case of
WP:NOTINHERIT--this isn't an article about someone who briefly lived next door to Oswald, or something. She was written about in the Warren Commission report. A major writer, Norman Mailer, wrote about her, as did Vincent Bugliosi. She is written about in other RS books and articles, some of which appear in the references, some of which do not.
Caro7200 (
talk)
15:38, 12 August 2020 (UTC)reply
Since you raise
WP:BLP1E, can you explain how you think the three criteria there are met? It seems pretty clear that (i) EG is only covered in the context of her relationship to Oswald, (ii) "the person otherwise remains, and is likely to remain, a low-profile individual" and (iii) EG's role in the Kennedy assassination was, to put it mildly, "not substantial". —Brigade Piron (
talk)
13:21, 11 August 2020 (UTC)reply
Comment: I think the Keep votes clearly demonstrate this is a case of
WP:BLP1E (not a single event in her life not associated with the assasination of Kennedy is mentioned) and
WP:NOTINHERITED (If it wasn't for her connection to Oswald she would be unknown to history). The keep arguements are not based on guidelines and sources but are based on opinions and feelings. Merge it with Oswald. //
Timothy :: talk18:34, 12 August 2020 (UTC)reply
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's
talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's
talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
Although this article is well written and sourced, there seems no evidence that Ella German is sufficiently notable for her own article. She would not pass the specific guidance in
WP:BIO and there is nothing in the sources currently cited to indicate that
WP:GNG are met either as she has apparently had no sustained coverage in her own right. In essence, the article depicts her as notable only because of her links to Oswald which raises obvious issues of
WP:NOTINHERIT. —Brigade Piron (
talk)
14:54, 27 July 2020 (UTC)reply
Keep. While she may indeed have only become notable due to being related to someone precipitating one event, that particular event was profoundly damaging to the American psyche and relatively rare in American history. Had she been one of a string of girlfriends that had come and gone I would be more inclined to agree that she may not deserve her own article, but the fact is that she even appears in the
Warren Commission’s report and if they felt she was notable enough for examination, I would concur. It is possible that this relationship had affected Oswald’s mental state in his decision to return to the United States and exploring that relationship deserves more than a byline in that article. I would also be very interested in seeing more existing references put into her article as the majority of them come from one or two books at present.
LovelyLillith (
talk)
08:13, 31 July 2020 (UTC)reply
No-one has denied that the Kennedy assassination and Oswald are notable which is basically what we can deduce from the Warren Commission report. The question is whether Ella German independently meets the requirements in
WP:GNG or
WP:BIO in light of
WP:NOTINHERIT. I'd also suggest
WP:NOTEVERYTHING is relevant. —Brigade Piron (
talk)
10:28, 31 July 2020 (UTC)reply
It isn't at all, but I can't tell you what the above sounds like to you--only you can do that. And if the assassination of a major head of state is not a defining event, perhaps your list of the defining events of the 20th century includes only World Wars I and II...
Caro7200 (
talk)
20:39, 9 August 2020 (UTC)reply
I'm not sure we'd be having this discussion about an ex-girlfriend of the culprit of the
Assassination of Olof Palme, but there is an obvious subjective quality to the most important events of the 20th century. There is still no reason to wave the long-established policy of
WP:NOTINHERIT just because the INHERITOR is particularly noteworthy. It's the sort of argument that would permit every soldier of
World War I and
World War II to have their own WP biography. —Brigade Piron (
talk)
13:14, 11 August 2020 (UTC)reply
As I wrote, I don't think this is a case of
WP:NOTINHERIT--this isn't an article about someone who briefly lived next door to Oswald, or something. She was written about in the Warren Commission report. A major writer, Norman Mailer, wrote about her, as did Vincent Bugliosi. She is written about in other RS books and articles, some of which appear in the references, some of which do not.
Caro7200 (
talk)
15:38, 12 August 2020 (UTC)reply
Since you raise
WP:BLP1E, can you explain how you think the three criteria there are met? It seems pretty clear that (i) EG is only covered in the context of her relationship to Oswald, (ii) "the person otherwise remains, and is likely to remain, a low-profile individual" and (iii) EG's role in the Kennedy assassination was, to put it mildly, "not substantial". —Brigade Piron (
talk)
13:21, 11 August 2020 (UTC)reply
Comment: I think the Keep votes clearly demonstrate this is a case of
WP:BLP1E (not a single event in her life not associated with the assasination of Kennedy is mentioned) and
WP:NOTINHERITED (If it wasn't for her connection to Oswald she would be unknown to history). The keep arguements are not based on guidelines and sources but are based on opinions and feelings. Merge it with Oswald. //
Timothy :: talk18:34, 12 August 2020 (UTC)reply
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's
talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.