- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was no consensus. There's a bunch of sources presented. Some of the discussants here claim they are sufficient to meet WP:N. Others dismiss them as "character encyclopedias" and WP:PRIMARY. Ultimately, there's no agreement on whether they are sufficient or not. -- RoySmith (talk) 21:13, 23 March 2020 (UTC)
AfDs for this article:
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- Doctor Death (comics) ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log · Stats)
- (Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
The article is failing to establish notability like many others with only primary sources not secondary sources. The sources either prove Batman is notable or supervillain is but not the character at all. I don’t want to delete. Just merge and get all the cruft all the way. When I boldly try. I just get that I should have discussed it with the editor who reverted the bold edit a simply because I believe he likes the topic and is an inclusionist on stand alones. That’s misguided logic. He wants me to discuss it so all the articles he liked can obviously stay. He reverted twice but the second time he added see also citations. I tried merge requests before and they are not active enough. They do nothing. So here I am doing a forbidden AFD because I feel I created a list article that could preserve these characters that don’t quite meet requirement. But now the list article I created is more useless but that won’t matter because articles according to the editor should not be redirected / merged. Jhenderson 777 16:28, 15 March 2020 (UTC)
- Automated comment: This AfD was not correctly transcluded to the log ( step 3). I have transcluded it to Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Log/2020 March 15. — cyberbot I Talk to my owner:Online 16:31, 15 March 2020 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Fictional elements-related deletion discussions. Toughpigs ( talk) 16:48, 15 March 2020 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Comics and animation-related deletion discussions. Toughpigs ( talk) 16:48, 15 March 2020 (UTC)
- Keep per
WP:NEXIST and
WP:ARTN. Dr. Death is the earliest supervillain in Batman comics. There is coverage in many reliable non-fiction secondary sources, including:
- The Supervillain Book: The Evil Side of Comics and Hollywood by Gina Renée Misiroglou and Michael Eury, Visible Ink Press (2006)
- The Encyclopedia of Super Villains by Jeff Rovin, Facts on File (1987)
- Men of Tomorrow: Geeks, Gangsters, and the Birth of the Comic Book by Gerard Jones, University of Michigan Press (2004)
- The Essential Batman Encyclopedia by Robert Greenberger, Del Rey (2008)
- The Original Encyclopedia of Comic Book Heroes, Vol. 1: Batman by Michael L. Fleischer, Macmillan (1976)
- I think that the nominator is confusing primary with secondary sources. The first source on the list is already in the article as a citation; I added the others in a Further reading section so that editors who want to improve the article can use them as resources. -- Toughpigs ( talk) 16:42, 15 March 2020 (UTC)
- These sources are better on a list just saying. Yes I got them mixed up on the sentence but not confused about them. These sources are not proving significant coverage. Jhenderson 777 16:45, 15 March 2020 (UTC)
- Keep. The sources identified by Toughpigs indicate sufficient notability. — Hunter Kahn 17:11, 15 March 2020 (UTC)
- Delete or redirect - The above sources are trivial mentions. Also, please stop including those pointless character encyclopedias. They can satisfy WP:V, but they're absolutely useless for WP:N. TTN ( talk) 17:27, 15 March 2020 (UTC)
- Exactly how I feel! But deletion is a bit harsh when there is a section of them on a list article already been made. See here. Jhenderson 777 17:34, 15 March 2020 (UTC)
- Delete Coverage in character encyclopedias might merit inclusion in a list of some sort, similarly to the encyclopedia. A standalone article still does not meet WP:GNG standards for WP:SIGCOV. ZXCVBNM ( TALK) 18:08, 15 March 2020 (UTC)
- Redirect to List of DC Comics major characters#Doctor Death, the coverage given does not pass GNG, and the article itself is sourced entirely to primary sources and one of the above sources. The major character list is a good target for a redirect. Devonian Wombat ( talk) 02:06, 16 March 2020 (UTC)
- Why would he be on a list of major characters? He's not a major character. -- Toughpigs ( talk) 02:43, 16 March 2020 (UTC)
- That can be a temporary name any ways. Jhenderson 777 11:05, 16 March 2020 (UTC)
- Articles like this is meant to be a rewrite of the terrible DC Comics character list. We will figure something out. He can go on the minor character page too for now. Jhenderson 777 11:21, 16 March 2020 (UTC)
- These list ideas don't make sense. DC Comics have been in continuous publication for more than 80 years; there are way too many "major characters" and "minor characters" to even be listed on one page by name, let alone with any kind of depth. It sounds like you want to create a list page just for the sake of making a list page. There's no explanation for why organizing material that way would be helpful for a reader who's interested in learning more about the topic. -- Toughpigs ( talk) 15:04, 16 March 2020 (UTC)
- I agree....you don’t realize I am trying to fix that though. Right now this is the only option until I am done if I get done. This is going to be an all character list in the future for one thing etc. There is an method of my good faith madness and I don’t need questioning about it on an AFD page at least. Jhenderson 777 15:09, 16 March 2020 (UTC)
- Your entire rationale for redirecting this page is so that it can go to a list page that you admit is still a half-baked idea. I respect your good-faith work, but I think that you should work out what the list is for in draft space before you try redirecting useful content there. -- Toughpigs ( talk) 15:16, 16 March 2020 (UTC)
This is irrevelant and you don’t understand me here anyway. It is not a half baked idea. It just doesn’t have a proper name due to a "minor character" article and another list article which is being used improperly.
Jhenderson
777
15:30, 16 March 2020 (UTC)
- Keep Looking over the character and their appearances in the comics, the real issue with the page is citations and writing, which it really needs a rewrite/revision in my opinion. The character is significant enough as they are one of the very first villains Batman faced during the Golden Era, and they have appeared in a total of 19 issues (not much but reasonable). Doing a little bit of digging, there are additional literary sources that can be added tot he article (I have found a total of 5 and there may be more). In all, the amount of information available on the character suggests that it should be kept and have some work done on it, rather than simply deleting or redirecting it.-- Paleface Jack ( talk) 16:55, 16 March 2020 (UTC)
- Paleface Jack, can you post the sources you've found? I think it would help to see them, thanks. — Toughpigs ( talk) 00:30, 17 March 2020 (UTC)
- B. J. Oropeza (2005). The Gospel According to Superheroes: Religion and Pop Culture. Peter Lang. ISBN 978-0-8204-7422-9.
- Various (March 12, 2019). Detective Comics: 80 Years of Batman Deluxe Edition. DC Comics. ISBN 978-1-4012-9878-4.
- Michael L. Fleisher; Janet E. Lincoln (1976). The Encyclopedia of Comic Book Heroes: Batman. Collier Books. ISBN 978-0-02-080090-3.
- Alex G. Malloy (January 2006). Standard Guide to Golden Age Comics. Krause Publications. ISBN 978-0-89689-181-4.-- Paleface Jack ( talk) 16:00, 17 March 2020 (UTC)
- Great, thanks! -- Toughpigs ( talk) 16:01, 17 March 2020 (UTC)
- Delete or redirect per nom and above - Brief mentions in character encyclopedias do not confer stand-alone notability. Levivich dubious – discuss 16:46, 17 March 2020 (UTC)
- Keep - Let this page stay. He is a notable Batman villain. Plus @ Toughpigs:, @ Hunter Kahn:, and @ Paleface Jack: are right about their posts here. -- Rtkat3 ( talk) 19:12, 17 March 2020 (UTC)
- Do not delete because the nominator is wanting to WP:MERGE this content and is mistakenly using the WP:AFD process to accomplish this. It's hard to merge when the article gets deleted. There is no merge target established in the nomination statement. If it is going to be the nominator's own personal list List of DC Comics major characters, then I oppose that entirely because that list has no true inclusion criteria established, this particular character is not "major", and the list is very likely inappropriately redundant when other better lists exist, like List of Batman family enemies. But how is that to be decided on this page? Erik ( talk | contrib) ( ping me) 12:40, 20 March 2020 (UTC)
- The page should be moved to a list. If the page history has consensus to be deleted then so be it. Also the List of DC Comics major characters page was not planned to be a major character page forever. The main page were going to history merged together and it was going to be an every character article. The minor character page was going to be merged. This subjective major and minor character stuff was planned to get rid of. You editors fail to realize that. Jhenderson 777 13:06, 20 March 2020 (UTC)
- Keep Notability is established by the sources above. Cheers, 1292simon ( talk) 13:06, 23 March 2020 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was no consensus. There's a bunch of sources presented. Some of the discussants here claim they are sufficient to meet WP:N. Others dismiss them as "character encyclopedias" and WP:PRIMARY. Ultimately, there's no agreement on whether they are sufficient or not. -- RoySmith (talk) 21:13, 23 March 2020 (UTC)
AfDs for this article:
[Hide this box] New to Articles for deletion (AfD)? Read these primers!
- Doctor Death (comics) ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log · Stats)
- (Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
The article is failing to establish notability like many others with only primary sources not secondary sources. The sources either prove Batman is notable or supervillain is but not the character at all. I don’t want to delete. Just merge and get all the cruft all the way. When I boldly try. I just get that I should have discussed it with the editor who reverted the bold edit a simply because I believe he likes the topic and is an inclusionist on stand alones. That’s misguided logic. He wants me to discuss it so all the articles he liked can obviously stay. He reverted twice but the second time he added see also citations. I tried merge requests before and they are not active enough. They do nothing. So here I am doing a forbidden AFD because I feel I created a list article that could preserve these characters that don’t quite meet requirement. But now the list article I created is more useless but that won’t matter because articles according to the editor should not be redirected / merged. Jhenderson 777 16:28, 15 March 2020 (UTC)
- Automated comment: This AfD was not correctly transcluded to the log ( step 3). I have transcluded it to Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Log/2020 March 15. — cyberbot I Talk to my owner:Online 16:31, 15 March 2020 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Fictional elements-related deletion discussions. Toughpigs ( talk) 16:48, 15 March 2020 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Comics and animation-related deletion discussions. Toughpigs ( talk) 16:48, 15 March 2020 (UTC)
- Keep per
WP:NEXIST and
WP:ARTN. Dr. Death is the earliest supervillain in Batman comics. There is coverage in many reliable non-fiction secondary sources, including:
- The Supervillain Book: The Evil Side of Comics and Hollywood by Gina Renée Misiroglou and Michael Eury, Visible Ink Press (2006)
- The Encyclopedia of Super Villains by Jeff Rovin, Facts on File (1987)
- Men of Tomorrow: Geeks, Gangsters, and the Birth of the Comic Book by Gerard Jones, University of Michigan Press (2004)
- The Essential Batman Encyclopedia by Robert Greenberger, Del Rey (2008)
- The Original Encyclopedia of Comic Book Heroes, Vol. 1: Batman by Michael L. Fleischer, Macmillan (1976)
- I think that the nominator is confusing primary with secondary sources. The first source on the list is already in the article as a citation; I added the others in a Further reading section so that editors who want to improve the article can use them as resources. -- Toughpigs ( talk) 16:42, 15 March 2020 (UTC)
- These sources are better on a list just saying. Yes I got them mixed up on the sentence but not confused about them. These sources are not proving significant coverage. Jhenderson 777 16:45, 15 March 2020 (UTC)
- Keep. The sources identified by Toughpigs indicate sufficient notability. — Hunter Kahn 17:11, 15 March 2020 (UTC)
- Delete or redirect - The above sources are trivial mentions. Also, please stop including those pointless character encyclopedias. They can satisfy WP:V, but they're absolutely useless for WP:N. TTN ( talk) 17:27, 15 March 2020 (UTC)
- Exactly how I feel! But deletion is a bit harsh when there is a section of them on a list article already been made. See here. Jhenderson 777 17:34, 15 March 2020 (UTC)
- Delete Coverage in character encyclopedias might merit inclusion in a list of some sort, similarly to the encyclopedia. A standalone article still does not meet WP:GNG standards for WP:SIGCOV. ZXCVBNM ( TALK) 18:08, 15 March 2020 (UTC)
- Redirect to List of DC Comics major characters#Doctor Death, the coverage given does not pass GNG, and the article itself is sourced entirely to primary sources and one of the above sources. The major character list is a good target for a redirect. Devonian Wombat ( talk) 02:06, 16 March 2020 (UTC)
- Why would he be on a list of major characters? He's not a major character. -- Toughpigs ( talk) 02:43, 16 March 2020 (UTC)
- That can be a temporary name any ways. Jhenderson 777 11:05, 16 March 2020 (UTC)
- Articles like this is meant to be a rewrite of the terrible DC Comics character list. We will figure something out. He can go on the minor character page too for now. Jhenderson 777 11:21, 16 March 2020 (UTC)
- These list ideas don't make sense. DC Comics have been in continuous publication for more than 80 years; there are way too many "major characters" and "minor characters" to even be listed on one page by name, let alone with any kind of depth. It sounds like you want to create a list page just for the sake of making a list page. There's no explanation for why organizing material that way would be helpful for a reader who's interested in learning more about the topic. -- Toughpigs ( talk) 15:04, 16 March 2020 (UTC)
- I agree....you don’t realize I am trying to fix that though. Right now this is the only option until I am done if I get done. This is going to be an all character list in the future for one thing etc. There is an method of my good faith madness and I don’t need questioning about it on an AFD page at least. Jhenderson 777 15:09, 16 March 2020 (UTC)
- Your entire rationale for redirecting this page is so that it can go to a list page that you admit is still a half-baked idea. I respect your good-faith work, but I think that you should work out what the list is for in draft space before you try redirecting useful content there. -- Toughpigs ( talk) 15:16, 16 March 2020 (UTC)
This is irrevelant and you don’t understand me here anyway. It is not a half baked idea. It just doesn’t have a proper name due to a "minor character" article and another list article which is being used improperly.
Jhenderson
777
15:30, 16 March 2020 (UTC)
- Keep Looking over the character and their appearances in the comics, the real issue with the page is citations and writing, which it really needs a rewrite/revision in my opinion. The character is significant enough as they are one of the very first villains Batman faced during the Golden Era, and they have appeared in a total of 19 issues (not much but reasonable). Doing a little bit of digging, there are additional literary sources that can be added tot he article (I have found a total of 5 and there may be more). In all, the amount of information available on the character suggests that it should be kept and have some work done on it, rather than simply deleting or redirecting it.-- Paleface Jack ( talk) 16:55, 16 March 2020 (UTC)
- Paleface Jack, can you post the sources you've found? I think it would help to see them, thanks. — Toughpigs ( talk) 00:30, 17 March 2020 (UTC)
- B. J. Oropeza (2005). The Gospel According to Superheroes: Religion and Pop Culture. Peter Lang. ISBN 978-0-8204-7422-9.
- Various (March 12, 2019). Detective Comics: 80 Years of Batman Deluxe Edition. DC Comics. ISBN 978-1-4012-9878-4.
- Michael L. Fleisher; Janet E. Lincoln (1976). The Encyclopedia of Comic Book Heroes: Batman. Collier Books. ISBN 978-0-02-080090-3.
- Alex G. Malloy (January 2006). Standard Guide to Golden Age Comics. Krause Publications. ISBN 978-0-89689-181-4.-- Paleface Jack ( talk) 16:00, 17 March 2020 (UTC)
- Great, thanks! -- Toughpigs ( talk) 16:01, 17 March 2020 (UTC)
- Delete or redirect per nom and above - Brief mentions in character encyclopedias do not confer stand-alone notability. Levivich dubious – discuss 16:46, 17 March 2020 (UTC)
- Keep - Let this page stay. He is a notable Batman villain. Plus @ Toughpigs:, @ Hunter Kahn:, and @ Paleface Jack: are right about their posts here. -- Rtkat3 ( talk) 19:12, 17 March 2020 (UTC)
- Do not delete because the nominator is wanting to WP:MERGE this content and is mistakenly using the WP:AFD process to accomplish this. It's hard to merge when the article gets deleted. There is no merge target established in the nomination statement. If it is going to be the nominator's own personal list List of DC Comics major characters, then I oppose that entirely because that list has no true inclusion criteria established, this particular character is not "major", and the list is very likely inappropriately redundant when other better lists exist, like List of Batman family enemies. But how is that to be decided on this page? Erik ( talk | contrib) ( ping me) 12:40, 20 March 2020 (UTC)
- The page should be moved to a list. If the page history has consensus to be deleted then so be it. Also the List of DC Comics major characters page was not planned to be a major character page forever. The main page were going to history merged together and it was going to be an every character article. The minor character page was going to be merged. This subjective major and minor character stuff was planned to get rid of. You editors fail to realize that. Jhenderson 777 13:06, 20 March 2020 (UTC)
- Keep Notability is established by the sources above. Cheers, 1292simon ( talk) 13:06, 23 March 2020 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.