- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was delete. Can be recreated if reliable independent sources are found for other elements of his biography than the sex scandal. Sandstein 09:43, 30 December 2013 (UTC)
- David Hocking ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log · Stats)
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Virtually all the information about this individual is sourced from PRIMARY sources which, per the notability guideline for individuals do not "count" towards notability. That leaves two areas where reliable sources do exist. First, his role as a minor witness to the assassination of Rehavam Ze'evi, which was so minor as not to even be mentioned in the primary article on that event (and could easily be mentioned there). Second, a very minor sex scandal (currently being EW'ed in and out of the article, thus the diff) in which he resigned from the pastorate of one church only to take up the pastorate of another. That's hardly the kind of thing about which to build an article upon and, if the Zeevi material is moved to the assassination article, this one comes close to not satisfying BLP1E (though there is some doubt about whether or not he should be considered a low-profile individual). Finally, let me note that I do not have a dog in this hunt: I came onto this as a Third Opinion project volunteer being asked to opine on whether or not the scandal information should be included. I think it should, but I have some grave doubt about whether it should be the only reliably-sourced thing which is included. TransporterMan ( TALK) 20:03, 13 December 2013 (UTC)
- Comment minor witness isn't notable. Sex scandal is - but wp:BLP1E. The big question is how notable his teaching and radio show is. Not very, I think. But do we have anyone in the right subculture to be able to easily find the sources? Neonchameleon ( talk) 22:55, 13 December 2013 (UTC)
- Comment At the peak of his ministry, i.e. before the scandal, he was pastor of one of the biggest megachurches in Orange County, and the local paper often solicited comments from him on moral and religious issues. Lately, he's better known as a writer and speaker on Christian eschatology, frequently speaking at various "end times" conferences. But quality secondary sources? Searching ProQuest, the only substantial press articles I could find specifically about him were an '89 article about a pro-Israel rally he organized, a '91 article talking about the dedication of Calvary Church's $9.7 million worship center, and then a half-dozen or so articles related to the '92 scandal. He also has an entry in the Encyclopedia of Evangelicalism for what it's worth. But I'll leave it to more experienced wikipedians to judge whether that rises to the level of notability. Hoveringdog ( talk) 02:08, 14 December 2013 (UTC)
- Note: This debate has been included in the list of California-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k ( talk) 17:44, 14 December 2013 (UTC)
- Note: This debate has been included in the list of Christianity-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k ( talk) 17:44, 14 December 2013 (UTC)
- Note: This debate has been included in the list of People-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k ( talk) 17:44, 14 December 2013 (UTC)
- Comment I've made some effort to add secondary sources and generally tidy up. A number of the claims on the page weren't even supported by the primary sources cited, so I pared those back to only what I could confirm (although that encyclopedia article seems a little schlocky to me as well, with at least one glaring error). The Pastoral Ministry bit could still use some clean up and citations, but I hope to get to it. Hoveringdog ( talk) 17:21, 17 December 2013 (UTC)
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Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.
- Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Mark Arsten ( talk) 02:27, 22 December 2013 (UTC)
- Delete per lack of coverage for anything except the sex scandal/resignation. In a search, I did find coverage about that from Reliable Sources, but we can't build an article around that one incident in his life. Surprisingly, none of his other activities - pastor of a megachurch, radio broadcaster, etc. - seem to have attracted the kind of coverage needed to establish notability as Wikipedia defines it. I am open to changing my opinion if Reliable Sources can be found for his biography and other activities. -- MelanieN ( talk) 21:34, 28 December 2013 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was delete. Can be recreated if reliable independent sources are found for other elements of his biography than the sex scandal. Sandstein 09:43, 30 December 2013 (UTC)
- David Hocking ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log · Stats)
- (Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
Virtually all the information about this individual is sourced from PRIMARY sources which, per the notability guideline for individuals do not "count" towards notability. That leaves two areas where reliable sources do exist. First, his role as a minor witness to the assassination of Rehavam Ze'evi, which was so minor as not to even be mentioned in the primary article on that event (and could easily be mentioned there). Second, a very minor sex scandal (currently being EW'ed in and out of the article, thus the diff) in which he resigned from the pastorate of one church only to take up the pastorate of another. That's hardly the kind of thing about which to build an article upon and, if the Zeevi material is moved to the assassination article, this one comes close to not satisfying BLP1E (though there is some doubt about whether or not he should be considered a low-profile individual). Finally, let me note that I do not have a dog in this hunt: I came onto this as a Third Opinion project volunteer being asked to opine on whether or not the scandal information should be included. I think it should, but I have some grave doubt about whether it should be the only reliably-sourced thing which is included. TransporterMan ( TALK) 20:03, 13 December 2013 (UTC)
- Comment minor witness isn't notable. Sex scandal is - but wp:BLP1E. The big question is how notable his teaching and radio show is. Not very, I think. But do we have anyone in the right subculture to be able to easily find the sources? Neonchameleon ( talk) 22:55, 13 December 2013 (UTC)
- Comment At the peak of his ministry, i.e. before the scandal, he was pastor of one of the biggest megachurches in Orange County, and the local paper often solicited comments from him on moral and religious issues. Lately, he's better known as a writer and speaker on Christian eschatology, frequently speaking at various "end times" conferences. But quality secondary sources? Searching ProQuest, the only substantial press articles I could find specifically about him were an '89 article about a pro-Israel rally he organized, a '91 article talking about the dedication of Calvary Church's $9.7 million worship center, and then a half-dozen or so articles related to the '92 scandal. He also has an entry in the Encyclopedia of Evangelicalism for what it's worth. But I'll leave it to more experienced wikipedians to judge whether that rises to the level of notability. Hoveringdog ( talk) 02:08, 14 December 2013 (UTC)
- Note: This debate has been included in the list of California-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k ( talk) 17:44, 14 December 2013 (UTC)
- Note: This debate has been included in the list of Christianity-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k ( talk) 17:44, 14 December 2013 (UTC)
- Note: This debate has been included in the list of People-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k ( talk) 17:44, 14 December 2013 (UTC)
- Comment I've made some effort to add secondary sources and generally tidy up. A number of the claims on the page weren't even supported by the primary sources cited, so I pared those back to only what I could confirm (although that encyclopedia article seems a little schlocky to me as well, with at least one glaring error). The Pastoral Ministry bit could still use some clean up and citations, but I hope to get to it. Hoveringdog ( talk) 17:21, 17 December 2013 (UTC)
-
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.
- Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Mark Arsten ( talk) 02:27, 22 December 2013 (UTC)
- Delete per lack of coverage for anything except the sex scandal/resignation. In a search, I did find coverage about that from Reliable Sources, but we can't build an article around that one incident in his life. Surprisingly, none of his other activities - pastor of a megachurch, radio broadcaster, etc. - seem to have attracted the kind of coverage needed to establish notability as Wikipedia defines it. I am open to changing my opinion if Reliable Sources can be found for his biography and other activities. -- MelanieN ( talk) 21:34, 28 December 2013 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.