- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was no consensus. So Why 12:15, 24 January 2018 (UTC)
Daniel J. Miller
- Daniel J. Miller ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log · Stats)
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Commendable, but the sources are just too weak to satisfy WP:GNG and WP:SOLDIER. Clarityfiend ( talk) 08:40, 9 January 2018 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of People-related deletion discussions. Baby miss fortune 10:34, 9 January 2018 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Military-related deletion discussions. Baby miss fortune 10:34, 9 January 2018 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Aviation-related deletion discussions. Baby miss fortune 10:34, 9 January 2018 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Korea-related deletion discussions. Baby miss fortune 10:34, 9 January 2018 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Vietnam-related deletion discussions. Baby miss fortune 10:34, 9 January 2018 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of New York-related deletion discussions. Baby miss fortune 10:34, 9 January 2018 (UTC)
WeakKeep - I've about convinced that service in three wars is notable.-- Georgia Army Vet Contribs Talk 22:38, 9 January 2018 (UTC)
- It's not all that uncommon: e.g. Adrian Carton de Wiart, Ed Freeman, Basil L. Plumley, Tom (Spry) and Jerry (Hanson). Clarityfiend ( talk) 01:09, 10 January 2018 (UTC)
- I don't think notability clashes with commonness.-- Georgia Army Vet Contribs Talk 02:03, 10 January 2018 (UTC)
- Note that this would qualify pretty much every British regular soldier of the 19th and early 20th centuries for an article. I'd better get writing... -- Necrothesp ( talk) 15:03, 10 January 2018 (UTC)
- Comment - I could see how he could be notable (3 wars, early service in helicopter squadrons, some awards -
Cheney Award seems significant) - but what is lacking is sources. I found an obit (which doesn't match everything in the article (e.g. has him transition to jets after Korea)) - but I would like to see more solid sourcing here than what's currently in here.
Icewhiz (
talk) 22:57, 9 January 2018 (UTC)
- Keep - per improvements by Smmurphy - coverage is there. SOLDIER is not an end all and be all (though the classification of rarely awarded Cheney Award - " act of valor, extreme fortitude or self-sacrifice in a humanitarian interest, performed in connection with aircraft, but not necessarily of a military nature" (so self-sacrifice - but not in the face of the enemy which combat awards related to) - could be pigeonholed in that direction). Icewhiz ( talk) 06:23, 11 January 2018 (UTC)
- Comment - Found a readable ref for the Cheney Award and one of our standards for the Silver Star.-- Georgia Army Vet Contribs Talk 02:03, 10 January 2018 (UTC)
- Keep - It looks to me like he had a rather illustrious career. I'm putting together sources from newspapers.com and will update the page shortly. In the meantime, I want to note that there is another Daniel J. Miller from New York (I think) who was an officer in the Navy on the USS Nimitz. Smmurphy( Talk) 18:13, 10 January 2018 (UTC)
- I've made my updates, there really is a lot of information about him. Regarding his suitability for the encyclopedia, I'd say that the Cheney Award is a very significant award, and while not a part of SOLDIER, could be a part of ANYBIO #1 (except it very much is not well-known). He flew a number of rescue missions in Korea which got national media coverage, although in the article I mostly used local coverage because those articles are the most complete. Also, he commanded an air support squadron in Vietnam (there is a typo in his obituary, it says the 13th, but it was actually the
19th Tactical Air Support Squadron
[1]). I know that isn't a flag officer role. Anyway, there it is - please feel free to look things over; and while I have your attention, his obituary says while in Vietnam he was "at Nka Liang", does anyone know what that is? As for the 3 wars -> presumed suitability, I do not think that argument is necessary in this case.
Smmurphy(
Talk) 23:03, 10 January 2018 (UTC)
- To follow up on the point about national coverage of Miller; I find such coverage for three events in particular: his March 1951 rescue of Frank Presley ( here is a sample), his role in the July 1951 armistice talks at Kaesong ( here is a sample), and his receiving the Cheney Award in September 1952 ( here is a sample). Note that the search terms for each are different, slight variations give different results. National papers giving in depth coverage of these events include the LA Times, Orlando Sentinel, Minneapolis Star Tribune, Cincinnati Enquirer, and the Chicago Tribune. Many smaller papers covered the events as well as papers in NYC and Arizona, which may be considered local as he/his family lived in those places at those times. Smmurphy( Talk) 00:06, 13 January 2018 (UTC)
- I think the Miller in this clipping may be a different guy. He's an Army first lieutenant and by this time our Miller was higher in rank. On top of that, the unit cited is an Army aviation unit, not Air Force. That still doesn't ID Nka Liang, but it may not be necessary.-- Georgia Army Vet Contribs Talk 02:44, 13 January 2018 (UTC)
- I've made my updates, there really is a lot of information about him. Regarding his suitability for the encyclopedia, I'd say that the Cheney Award is a very significant award, and while not a part of SOLDIER, could be a part of ANYBIO #1 (except it very much is not well-known). He flew a number of rescue missions in Korea which got national media coverage, although in the article I mostly used local coverage because those articles are the most complete. Also, he commanded an air support squadron in Vietnam (there is a typo in his obituary, it says the 13th, but it was actually the
19th Tactical Air Support Squadron
[1]). I know that isn't a flag officer role. Anyway, there it is - please feel free to look things over; and while I have your attention, his obituary says while in Vietnam he was "at Nka Liang", does anyone know what that is? As for the 3 wars -> presumed suitability, I do not think that argument is necessary in this case.
Smmurphy(
Talk) 23:03, 10 January 2018 (UTC)
- Weak Keep, just passes muster as to notability for stand alone article based on service in "3 wars". Kierzek ( talk) 20:10, 10 January 2018 (UTC)
- Delete while he did good stuff in service for his country nothing stands out as being different or more noteworthy than hundreds of others who served. MilborneOne ( talk) 23:12, 12 January 2018 (UTC)
- Delete -- does not meet WP:SOLDIER and sourcing does not establish notability otherwise. Very few incoming links, indicating that the subject's career has not been significant. This results in a tribute page. Even with three wars, this does not rise to the level of encyclopedic relevance. K.e.coffman ( talk) 02:50, 16 January 2018 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Sandstein 21:22, 16 January 2018 (UTC)
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Sandstein 21:22, 16 January 2018 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was no consensus. So Why 12:15, 24 January 2018 (UTC)
Daniel J. Miller
- Daniel J. Miller ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log · Stats)
- (Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
Commendable, but the sources are just too weak to satisfy WP:GNG and WP:SOLDIER. Clarityfiend ( talk) 08:40, 9 January 2018 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of People-related deletion discussions. Baby miss fortune 10:34, 9 January 2018 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Military-related deletion discussions. Baby miss fortune 10:34, 9 January 2018 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Aviation-related deletion discussions. Baby miss fortune 10:34, 9 January 2018 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Korea-related deletion discussions. Baby miss fortune 10:34, 9 January 2018 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Vietnam-related deletion discussions. Baby miss fortune 10:34, 9 January 2018 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of New York-related deletion discussions. Baby miss fortune 10:34, 9 January 2018 (UTC)
WeakKeep - I've about convinced that service in three wars is notable.-- Georgia Army Vet Contribs Talk 22:38, 9 January 2018 (UTC)
- It's not all that uncommon: e.g. Adrian Carton de Wiart, Ed Freeman, Basil L. Plumley, Tom (Spry) and Jerry (Hanson). Clarityfiend ( talk) 01:09, 10 January 2018 (UTC)
- I don't think notability clashes with commonness.-- Georgia Army Vet Contribs Talk 02:03, 10 January 2018 (UTC)
- Note that this would qualify pretty much every British regular soldier of the 19th and early 20th centuries for an article. I'd better get writing... -- Necrothesp ( talk) 15:03, 10 January 2018 (UTC)
- Comment - I could see how he could be notable (3 wars, early service in helicopter squadrons, some awards -
Cheney Award seems significant) - but what is lacking is sources. I found an obit (which doesn't match everything in the article (e.g. has him transition to jets after Korea)) - but I would like to see more solid sourcing here than what's currently in here.
Icewhiz (
talk) 22:57, 9 January 2018 (UTC)
- Keep - per improvements by Smmurphy - coverage is there. SOLDIER is not an end all and be all (though the classification of rarely awarded Cheney Award - " act of valor, extreme fortitude or self-sacrifice in a humanitarian interest, performed in connection with aircraft, but not necessarily of a military nature" (so self-sacrifice - but not in the face of the enemy which combat awards related to) - could be pigeonholed in that direction). Icewhiz ( talk) 06:23, 11 January 2018 (UTC)
- Comment - Found a readable ref for the Cheney Award and one of our standards for the Silver Star.-- Georgia Army Vet Contribs Talk 02:03, 10 January 2018 (UTC)
- Keep - It looks to me like he had a rather illustrious career. I'm putting together sources from newspapers.com and will update the page shortly. In the meantime, I want to note that there is another Daniel J. Miller from New York (I think) who was an officer in the Navy on the USS Nimitz. Smmurphy( Talk) 18:13, 10 January 2018 (UTC)
- I've made my updates, there really is a lot of information about him. Regarding his suitability for the encyclopedia, I'd say that the Cheney Award is a very significant award, and while not a part of SOLDIER, could be a part of ANYBIO #1 (except it very much is not well-known). He flew a number of rescue missions in Korea which got national media coverage, although in the article I mostly used local coverage because those articles are the most complete. Also, he commanded an air support squadron in Vietnam (there is a typo in his obituary, it says the 13th, but it was actually the
19th Tactical Air Support Squadron
[1]). I know that isn't a flag officer role. Anyway, there it is - please feel free to look things over; and while I have your attention, his obituary says while in Vietnam he was "at Nka Liang", does anyone know what that is? As for the 3 wars -> presumed suitability, I do not think that argument is necessary in this case.
Smmurphy(
Talk) 23:03, 10 January 2018 (UTC)
- To follow up on the point about national coverage of Miller; I find such coverage for three events in particular: his March 1951 rescue of Frank Presley ( here is a sample), his role in the July 1951 armistice talks at Kaesong ( here is a sample), and his receiving the Cheney Award in September 1952 ( here is a sample). Note that the search terms for each are different, slight variations give different results. National papers giving in depth coverage of these events include the LA Times, Orlando Sentinel, Minneapolis Star Tribune, Cincinnati Enquirer, and the Chicago Tribune. Many smaller papers covered the events as well as papers in NYC and Arizona, which may be considered local as he/his family lived in those places at those times. Smmurphy( Talk) 00:06, 13 January 2018 (UTC)
- I think the Miller in this clipping may be a different guy. He's an Army first lieutenant and by this time our Miller was higher in rank. On top of that, the unit cited is an Army aviation unit, not Air Force. That still doesn't ID Nka Liang, but it may not be necessary.-- Georgia Army Vet Contribs Talk 02:44, 13 January 2018 (UTC)
- I've made my updates, there really is a lot of information about him. Regarding his suitability for the encyclopedia, I'd say that the Cheney Award is a very significant award, and while not a part of SOLDIER, could be a part of ANYBIO #1 (except it very much is not well-known). He flew a number of rescue missions in Korea which got national media coverage, although in the article I mostly used local coverage because those articles are the most complete. Also, he commanded an air support squadron in Vietnam (there is a typo in his obituary, it says the 13th, but it was actually the
19th Tactical Air Support Squadron
[1]). I know that isn't a flag officer role. Anyway, there it is - please feel free to look things over; and while I have your attention, his obituary says while in Vietnam he was "at Nka Liang", does anyone know what that is? As for the 3 wars -> presumed suitability, I do not think that argument is necessary in this case.
Smmurphy(
Talk) 23:03, 10 January 2018 (UTC)
- Weak Keep, just passes muster as to notability for stand alone article based on service in "3 wars". Kierzek ( talk) 20:10, 10 January 2018 (UTC)
- Delete while he did good stuff in service for his country nothing stands out as being different or more noteworthy than hundreds of others who served. MilborneOne ( talk) 23:12, 12 January 2018 (UTC)
- Delete -- does not meet WP:SOLDIER and sourcing does not establish notability otherwise. Very few incoming links, indicating that the subject's career has not been significant. This results in a tribute page. Even with three wars, this does not rise to the level of encyclopedic relevance. K.e.coffman ( talk) 02:50, 16 January 2018 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Sandstein 21:22, 16 January 2018 (UTC)
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Sandstein 21:22, 16 January 2018 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.