- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was keep. JohnCD ( talk) 22:06, 11 February 2014 (UTC)
Crazy Leo
- Crazy Leo ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log · Stats)
- (Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
- Article is filled with promotional expressions Self-promotion and indiscriminate publicity
- Most references are linked to personal site of the racer or dead
- Does not follow neutral point of view
- Crazy Leo seems not to satisfy criteria in WP:NMOTORSPORT
John Page Jr ( talk) 02:53, 29 January 2014 (UTC)
- Note: This debate has been included in the list of Sportspeople-related deletion discussions. Northamerica1000 (talk) 05:53, 29 January 2014 (UTC)
- Note: This debate has been included in the list of Canada-related deletion discussions. Northamerica1000 (talk) 05:53, 29 January 2014 (UTC)
- Note: This debate has been included in the list of Russia-related deletion discussions. Northamerica1000 (talk) 05:53, 29 January 2014 (UTC)
- Keep. I am the creator of the article. I thank you for your comments. I deleted all the facts that I knew as a follower of the sport from the CRC TV coverage, because I do not know how to use those as reference. Example of the recent TV show: [1]. Being a rally fan and not a Wikipedia expert, I now realize the problems with the article. I have edited the article to address the issues. Please advise if the article now meets all the guidelines.
- Article is filled with promotional expressions Self-promotion and indiscriminate publicity --- Fixed.
- Most references are linked to personal site of the racer or dead --- Fixed, not a single Reference to the racer's site.
- Does not follow neutral point of view --- Fixed. The article even talks (in the previous version, too) about a penalty Urlichich received at one of the events.
- Crazy Leo seems not to satisfy criteria in WP:NMOTORSPORT --- It meets WP:GNG. Speaking about the criteria in WP:NMOTORSPORT, it also fits, because:
- - Canadian Rally Championship and Rally America are professional series. Canadian Rally Championship offers a Subaru Contingency Program, which gives away over 60,000 dollars to competitors per year: [2], [3].
- - Both series are the top national series in its sport, just like the American Championship or 24 Hours of Le Mans, mentioned here: WP:NMOTORSPORT.
- I believe that this article is a valuable edition to Wikipedia, because it is now well referenced and it talks about a rally driver, who has been mentioned in The Globe and Mail, Toronto Star, Inside Track magazine, Auto123.com and Autoblog.com ( Crazy_Leo#References).
- Also, according to Wikipedia stats, the article has been viewed 449 times in the last 90 days, which means that people are searching for Crazy Leo in the search engines.
- — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mprice444 ( talk • contribs) 13:18, 29 January 2014 (UTC)
Better now, but notability is still is a question
- Thank you for editing page, now it does not look more like advertising, and references are updated
- Notability is still a question:
- WP:NMOTORSPORT states that "one where prize money is not trivial compared to the cost of the series". As stated in reference on Subaru Contingency Program $60,000 was distributed between all drivers and co-drivers within all levels who drives Subaru. This is hardly prize money of a series, more like Subaru promo.
- Both Rally America and Canadian Rally Championship are half-amateur events. Everyone with basic rally safety equipment may participate. This are national wide championships, without prize money enough to support team for a season and popularity is hardly comparable to American Championship or 24 Hours of Le Mans. Those have status much closer to World Rally Championship, which Crazy Leo had only expressed ambition to participate.
- It is hardly an achievement to reach 1.4 millions of youtube views.
With recent changes pare is much more appealing, and seems to stand to neutral point of view. Thank you again for editing it.
John Page Jr ( talk) 14:22, 29 January 2014 (UTC)
Keep.John, thank you for your comments.- Notability:
- In my opinion you are correct to an extent. The Subaru Contingency is a kind of in between the prize money and a Subaru promo, because Subaru is also the title sponsor of the series. The "Canadian Rally Championship Presented by Subaru" [4]
- Also, this [5] states that if a Subaru driver (Crazy Leo has always competed in a Subaru) won all the events, they could get a total prize money of $15,000, which according to the document is "presented in the driver's name" (not shared with co-drivers). I believe that it is not trivial money, but I can't be sure about the cost of the series.
- Both CRC and Rally America have national television coverage, CRC had it for many years.
Notability is still an issue
- Article still needs improvements. Latest edition states that racer skipped 2013 season, and only express his ambitions to participate in WRC, referencing 2012 CRC final standing. Leonid Urlichich holds 5th position, after Ken Block, who participated only in 2 of events.
It is hard to call Canadian Rally Championship or Rally America "fully professional series". Professional rally series like World Rally Championship. It is quite clearly stated in 1st paragraph of WP:NMOTORSPORT:
1 Have driven in a race in a fully professional series. A fully professional series is one where prize money is not trivial compared to the cost of the series. For example, the SCCA Trans-Am Series is considered professional while the SCCA Spec Miata National Championship would not be.
SCCA Spec Miata National Championship, which is example of not fully professional race have comparable rewards to Subaru Contingency Program ( http://www.scca.com/news/index.cfm?cid=50897) Fully professional is a key element - most of participants of CRC and/or Rally America are amateurs, for whom racing is rather hobby, than profession. It is amazing hobby, but it is hardly a fully professional league, like World Rally Championship or any of examples in WP:NMOTORSPORT
SCCA Spec Miata National Championship - have wide TV coverage, have 'National' in name and have lots of fans, supporters and participants.
- delete I would still recommend to delete this page for Self-promotion and indiscriminate publicity
John Page Jr ( talk) 15:52, 29 January 2014 (UTC)
Keep.
- fixed the above Thank you, I fixed the Reference to a correct source, and took out the comparison to Ken Block, which did seem irrelevant, indeed.
-
- as for notability If we look at the professionalism of the series only from the point of view of the prize money, and the number of entrants competing as a hobby, it can be argued that the WRC is also not a "fully professional series", because there is no prize money in most of the WRC classes, and most of the drivers are paying their way to compete, therefore they are competing as a hobby.
-
- your recommended deletion for Self-promotion and indiscriminate publicity --- In addition to the above, since Urlichich announced that he is working on the WRC campaign, and that has been published in multiple sources, including a Belgian one [6], [7], [8], it would make sense to at least wait for Urlichichi's announcement of the 2014 program. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mprice444 ( talk • contribs) 16:29, 29 January 2014 (UTC)
- Weak keep. I don't have much independent knowledge about rally racing, but I do find substantial coverage about this guy in apparently neutral sources [9] [10] [11]; it looks to me like he passes WP:GNG. On balance I don't find the current state of the article to be hopelessly promotional, and any such issues can be cleaned up. -- Arxiloxos ( talk) 16:39, 29 January 2014 (UTC)
- Now article looks much better. I don't really have anything agains it.
- Still, Urlichich admitted himself that professional WRC rally is completely different world from events in America. [12]
- There is some unrelated issues, like broken 3rd and 12th cites.
- Waiting for his 2014 program has nothing to do with Wikipedia purpose. It is a not promotional enterprise, neither it is a to get publicity.
-- John Page Jr ( talk) 17:10, 29 January 2014 (UTC)
- Keep - The subject passes WP:BASIC. Some source examples include:
- The Globe and Mail
- Gearbox magazine (a paid subscription magazine)
- The Toronto Star ( newsblog)
- – Northamerica1000 (talk) 01:22, 30 January 2014 (UTC)
What is next?
It has been over seven days since the "Nomination for Deletion". At this point there seems to be a consensus about keeping this article, and even John Page Jr ( talk), who nominated the article, said that he doesn't "really have anything agains it."-- Mprice444 ( talk) 21:17, 7 February 2014 (UTC)
Don't worry, after some time article would be removed from deletion list. -- John Page Jr ( talk) 00:44, 8 February 2014 (UTC)
- Thank you for clarifying & for the help with improving the article. -- Mprice444 ( talk) 00:51, 8 February 2014 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was keep. JohnCD ( talk) 22:06, 11 February 2014 (UTC)
Crazy Leo
- Crazy Leo ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log · Stats)
- (Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
- Article is filled with promotional expressions Self-promotion and indiscriminate publicity
- Most references are linked to personal site of the racer or dead
- Does not follow neutral point of view
- Crazy Leo seems not to satisfy criteria in WP:NMOTORSPORT
John Page Jr ( talk) 02:53, 29 January 2014 (UTC)
- Note: This debate has been included in the list of Sportspeople-related deletion discussions. Northamerica1000 (talk) 05:53, 29 January 2014 (UTC)
- Note: This debate has been included in the list of Canada-related deletion discussions. Northamerica1000 (talk) 05:53, 29 January 2014 (UTC)
- Note: This debate has been included in the list of Russia-related deletion discussions. Northamerica1000 (talk) 05:53, 29 January 2014 (UTC)
- Keep. I am the creator of the article. I thank you for your comments. I deleted all the facts that I knew as a follower of the sport from the CRC TV coverage, because I do not know how to use those as reference. Example of the recent TV show: [1]. Being a rally fan and not a Wikipedia expert, I now realize the problems with the article. I have edited the article to address the issues. Please advise if the article now meets all the guidelines.
- Article is filled with promotional expressions Self-promotion and indiscriminate publicity --- Fixed.
- Most references are linked to personal site of the racer or dead --- Fixed, not a single Reference to the racer's site.
- Does not follow neutral point of view --- Fixed. The article even talks (in the previous version, too) about a penalty Urlichich received at one of the events.
- Crazy Leo seems not to satisfy criteria in WP:NMOTORSPORT --- It meets WP:GNG. Speaking about the criteria in WP:NMOTORSPORT, it also fits, because:
- - Canadian Rally Championship and Rally America are professional series. Canadian Rally Championship offers a Subaru Contingency Program, which gives away over 60,000 dollars to competitors per year: [2], [3].
- - Both series are the top national series in its sport, just like the American Championship or 24 Hours of Le Mans, mentioned here: WP:NMOTORSPORT.
- I believe that this article is a valuable edition to Wikipedia, because it is now well referenced and it talks about a rally driver, who has been mentioned in The Globe and Mail, Toronto Star, Inside Track magazine, Auto123.com and Autoblog.com ( Crazy_Leo#References).
- Also, according to Wikipedia stats, the article has been viewed 449 times in the last 90 days, which means that people are searching for Crazy Leo in the search engines.
- — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mprice444 ( talk • contribs) 13:18, 29 January 2014 (UTC)
Better now, but notability is still is a question
- Thank you for editing page, now it does not look more like advertising, and references are updated
- Notability is still a question:
- WP:NMOTORSPORT states that "one where prize money is not trivial compared to the cost of the series". As stated in reference on Subaru Contingency Program $60,000 was distributed between all drivers and co-drivers within all levels who drives Subaru. This is hardly prize money of a series, more like Subaru promo.
- Both Rally America and Canadian Rally Championship are half-amateur events. Everyone with basic rally safety equipment may participate. This are national wide championships, without prize money enough to support team for a season and popularity is hardly comparable to American Championship or 24 Hours of Le Mans. Those have status much closer to World Rally Championship, which Crazy Leo had only expressed ambition to participate.
- It is hardly an achievement to reach 1.4 millions of youtube views.
With recent changes pare is much more appealing, and seems to stand to neutral point of view. Thank you again for editing it.
John Page Jr ( talk) 14:22, 29 January 2014 (UTC)
Keep.John, thank you for your comments.- Notability:
- In my opinion you are correct to an extent. The Subaru Contingency is a kind of in between the prize money and a Subaru promo, because Subaru is also the title sponsor of the series. The "Canadian Rally Championship Presented by Subaru" [4]
- Also, this [5] states that if a Subaru driver (Crazy Leo has always competed in a Subaru) won all the events, they could get a total prize money of $15,000, which according to the document is "presented in the driver's name" (not shared with co-drivers). I believe that it is not trivial money, but I can't be sure about the cost of the series.
- Both CRC and Rally America have national television coverage, CRC had it for many years.
Notability is still an issue
- Article still needs improvements. Latest edition states that racer skipped 2013 season, and only express his ambitions to participate in WRC, referencing 2012 CRC final standing. Leonid Urlichich holds 5th position, after Ken Block, who participated only in 2 of events.
It is hard to call Canadian Rally Championship or Rally America "fully professional series". Professional rally series like World Rally Championship. It is quite clearly stated in 1st paragraph of WP:NMOTORSPORT:
1 Have driven in a race in a fully professional series. A fully professional series is one where prize money is not trivial compared to the cost of the series. For example, the SCCA Trans-Am Series is considered professional while the SCCA Spec Miata National Championship would not be.
SCCA Spec Miata National Championship, which is example of not fully professional race have comparable rewards to Subaru Contingency Program ( http://www.scca.com/news/index.cfm?cid=50897) Fully professional is a key element - most of participants of CRC and/or Rally America are amateurs, for whom racing is rather hobby, than profession. It is amazing hobby, but it is hardly a fully professional league, like World Rally Championship or any of examples in WP:NMOTORSPORT
SCCA Spec Miata National Championship - have wide TV coverage, have 'National' in name and have lots of fans, supporters and participants.
- delete I would still recommend to delete this page for Self-promotion and indiscriminate publicity
John Page Jr ( talk) 15:52, 29 January 2014 (UTC)
Keep.
- fixed the above Thank you, I fixed the Reference to a correct source, and took out the comparison to Ken Block, which did seem irrelevant, indeed.
-
- as for notability If we look at the professionalism of the series only from the point of view of the prize money, and the number of entrants competing as a hobby, it can be argued that the WRC is also not a "fully professional series", because there is no prize money in most of the WRC classes, and most of the drivers are paying their way to compete, therefore they are competing as a hobby.
-
- your recommended deletion for Self-promotion and indiscriminate publicity --- In addition to the above, since Urlichich announced that he is working on the WRC campaign, and that has been published in multiple sources, including a Belgian one [6], [7], [8], it would make sense to at least wait for Urlichichi's announcement of the 2014 program. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mprice444 ( talk • contribs) 16:29, 29 January 2014 (UTC)
- Weak keep. I don't have much independent knowledge about rally racing, but I do find substantial coverage about this guy in apparently neutral sources [9] [10] [11]; it looks to me like he passes WP:GNG. On balance I don't find the current state of the article to be hopelessly promotional, and any such issues can be cleaned up. -- Arxiloxos ( talk) 16:39, 29 January 2014 (UTC)
- Now article looks much better. I don't really have anything agains it.
- Still, Urlichich admitted himself that professional WRC rally is completely different world from events in America. [12]
- There is some unrelated issues, like broken 3rd and 12th cites.
- Waiting for his 2014 program has nothing to do with Wikipedia purpose. It is a not promotional enterprise, neither it is a to get publicity.
-- John Page Jr ( talk) 17:10, 29 January 2014 (UTC)
- Keep - The subject passes WP:BASIC. Some source examples include:
- The Globe and Mail
- Gearbox magazine (a paid subscription magazine)
- The Toronto Star ( newsblog)
- – Northamerica1000 (talk) 01:22, 30 January 2014 (UTC)
What is next?
It has been over seven days since the "Nomination for Deletion". At this point there seems to be a consensus about keeping this article, and even John Page Jr ( talk), who nominated the article, said that he doesn't "really have anything agains it."-- Mprice444 ( talk) 21:17, 7 February 2014 (UTC)
Don't worry, after some time article would be removed from deletion list. -- John Page Jr ( talk) 00:44, 8 February 2014 (UTC)
- Thank you for clarifying & for the help with improving the article. -- Mprice444 ( talk) 00:51, 8 February 2014 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.