The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's
talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
This article is a sockpuppet production. After the sock was blocked, I removed all primary sources. I was left with only two, one of which has the subject talking about another topic (his school) in an interview. This subject appears to fail
WP:GNG,
WP:NACADEMIC, and
WP:NAUTHOR.
JFHJr (
㊟)
00:33, 31 May 2024 (UTC)reply
Ah--this is where this came from: a socking case of COI-puffery.
JFHJr, in such cases, don't even bother cleaning up the article; not doing so makes the fluff stand out nicely.
Drmies (
talk)
00:41, 31 May 2024 (UTC)reply
I try to present each specimen in its most favorable light. And without extraneous reading. Anyone wondering about the application of my edits can see the history. Thank you for your comment. I always appreciate your input.
JFHJr (
㊟)
00:46, 31 May 2024 (UTC)reply
Same question! Why are Wikipedia user statements being crossed out? I'm genuinely curious as to why someone would be so determined to delete an article about a legitimate, leading practitioner in the field of international education.
Annabella25 (
talk)
17:06, 3 June 2024 (UTC) —
Annabella25 (
talk •
contribs) has made
few or no other edits outside this topic. reply
Not really, in the article you took down there were at least 10 independent references and there are many more out there, just look through the web!213.55.220.222 (
talk)
22:06, 1 June 2024 (UTC)reply
I was surprised to see the previous article removed. Dr Hughes is well known in international education. Have you googled him? Why should the article be reduced or deleted, according to who?213.55.220.222 (
talk)
15:24, 1 June 2024 (UTC)reply
The article is not removed, and "well known" should be supported by reliable secondary sources. "Have you googled him" is not a reasonable or helpful question to ask.
Drmies (
talk)
17:26, 1 June 2024 (UTC)reply
That's two interviews (
WP:BLPSPS) and coverage that includes Hughes talking about a different topic (the in-depth coverage is not about Hughes but AI in private schools). How does that approach
WP:ANYBIO?
JFHJr (
㊟)
20:57, 1 June 2024 (UTC)reply
The interviews have not been deleted. They're still at their URLs for anyone who googles this subject to find.
JFHJr (
㊟)
22:00, 1 June 2024 (UTC)reply
He has clearly made a widely recognized contribution that is part of the enduring historical record in education, just by his publications for the World Economic Forum, Springer, The Conversation, his doctoral research, and dozens of articles. He's a well respected scholar. This alone meets WP:ANYBIO
Lefka1 (
talk)
22:01, 1 June 2024 (UTC) —
Lefka1 (
talk •
contribs) has made
few or no other edits outside this topic. reply
I agree! Now, I'm genuinely curious about the motivation behind someone's relentless effort to delete an article about a reputable, leading practitioner in the field of international education.
Annabella25 (
talk)
17:11, 3 June 2024 (UTC)reply
You or whoever removed the first article took out lots of independent references. There's an interview with the International Baccalaureate for example. That's not a primary source, why are you removing it? There was also an article in the TES about him and by Cambridge's SHAPE. I am opposed to your proposal to delete this.213.55.220.222 (
talk)
22:04, 1 June 2024 (UTC)reply
OK, I'm about to block a socking account. The nay-sayers here likely have conflicts of interest, but worse than that they lack a proper understanding of what Wikipedia is and what the processes are. Interviews and whatnot do not count towards notability. If there is an "enduring historical record in education", there will be secondary sources that say that. That someone published articles also does not make them notable--unless others have written about those articles. If there's any more socking, this AfD will be semi-protected. Oh,
Lefka1, if you make any more comments about "personal vendetta" or whatever, I will happily block you too.
Drmies (
talk)
22:27, 1 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Hello. I'm intrigued by the controversy surrounding this article. I have no axe to grind about Hughes, one way or another, and I don't necessarily espouse his views, but - whether one likes it or not - he is unquestionably prominent and influential in international education, and increasingly so. Are the editors who propose the deletion of the article familiar with this field?
International educators throughout the world would be puzzled to hear that quite a small article devoted to Hughes has been earmarked for deletion, on the grounds of insufficient notability. An article providing some basic, sober information, free of "puffery", about who Hughes is and does fulfills Wikipedia's responsibility to inform its vast reading public, in an objective and neutral manner, about noteworthy people and topics, with the support of solid citations. I can't say I care enough about the Hughes article to do extensive research on its behalf, but as far as secondary sources go, you might look at the reputed TES journal (29 May 2020, "Rethinking school: a special issue", by Alistair McConville), the McKay interview with Hughes on World Radio Switzerland (29 February 2024), or the June 2024 "Formation" supplement ("Ces écoles centenaires") of Bilan magazine, page 4). So my advice, as an experienced Wikipedia reader (though not editor) would be DO NOT DELETE. All those in the field of international education understand why there is an article about Hughes in Wikipedia, regardless of whether they share his well-known educational goals.
By the way, I notice that some previous contributions to this discussion have been crossed out. Why, by whom, and on what authority? Those deleted comments are somewhat assertive, but by no means rude or irresponsible. I hope that this is not how Wikipedia functions, with certain editors censoring the reasonable contributions of others.83.79.254.53 (
talk)
10:43, 2 June 2024 (UTC)reply
@
Drmies, since your comment re page protection, we've gotten 2 new SPAs here, 1 more SPA at this page's talk; a blocked sock trying to vote here as an IP; a second IP that certainly belongs to one of the others; and more talk about a personal bias motivation (vendetta). If you have time today, could you please SPP this discussion? Any feedback is appreciated. Cheers!
JFHJr (
㊟)
17:20, 3 June 2024 (UTC)reply
JFHJr, just let it roll. Don't respond. Tag them as SPAs if you like, and straighten out their indenting. I ran CU on a couple and they're all roughly in the same area, but not enough for me to block them on technical grounds. I bet this will all be over soon.
Drmies (
talk)
17:23, 3 June 2024 (UTC)reply
KEEP. Hughes is a widely known figure in international education. To anybody who is knowledgeable about this field, that's obvious. I'm surprised that this can be such a controversial issue. Basic research about Hughes will confirm his notability.
77.59.138.101 (
talk)
18:08, 2 June 2024 (UTC)reply
The deletion proposal is not controversial. It does not require controversy to happen. Just a crappy article and crappy sources. The only controversy here is all the
WP:SOCKs, who are apparently determined to edit logged-out after blocks (editing logged-out is much like editing naked, leaves very little in doubt). You're making it much easier to tie a single sock to multiple IPs, so thank you!
JFHJr (
㊟)
18:16, 2 June 2024 (UTC)reply
KEEP. Dr. Hughes is a prominent figure in international education, widely respected for his significant contributions. He has authored two important books and numerous articles published in peer-reviewed journals, and he leads one of the oldest and most esteemed international schools in the world. His direct involvement with UNESCO and other international organizations, as well as his frequent invitations as a keynote speaker to global events, further underscore his expertise and influence in the field. Moreover, he holds two PhDs! Any attempt to delete his Wikipedia article may be motivated by personal bias rather than factual grounds. It's deeply troubling and shameful to witness someone of such high regard being placed in such a situation.
Annabella25 (
talk)
16:54, 3 June 2024 (UTC) —
Annabella25 (
talk •
contribs) has made
few or no other edits outside this topic. reply
Delete. The best case for notability is via NAUTHOR, but this would require multiple reviews of multiple works in reliable sources. Reviews are not evident, and I did not find them on my search; noting that searching is complicated by the subject's common name. The history of sockpuppetry and promotionalism here is indeed concerning.
Russ Woodroofe (
talk)
12:27, 4 June 2024 (UTC)reply
P.S. I have been taught at schools with IB and other independent ("private" or "prep") school for 5 years. I have never heard of him. He is not known world-wide, or at least not in New York City. 15:30, 5 June 2024 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's
talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's
talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
This article is a sockpuppet production. After the sock was blocked, I removed all primary sources. I was left with only two, one of which has the subject talking about another topic (his school) in an interview. This subject appears to fail
WP:GNG,
WP:NACADEMIC, and
WP:NAUTHOR.
JFHJr (
㊟)
00:33, 31 May 2024 (UTC)reply
Ah--this is where this came from: a socking case of COI-puffery.
JFHJr, in such cases, don't even bother cleaning up the article; not doing so makes the fluff stand out nicely.
Drmies (
talk)
00:41, 31 May 2024 (UTC)reply
I try to present each specimen in its most favorable light. And without extraneous reading. Anyone wondering about the application of my edits can see the history. Thank you for your comment. I always appreciate your input.
JFHJr (
㊟)
00:46, 31 May 2024 (UTC)reply
Same question! Why are Wikipedia user statements being crossed out? I'm genuinely curious as to why someone would be so determined to delete an article about a legitimate, leading practitioner in the field of international education.
Annabella25 (
talk)
17:06, 3 June 2024 (UTC) —
Annabella25 (
talk •
contribs) has made
few or no other edits outside this topic. reply
Not really, in the article you took down there were at least 10 independent references and there are many more out there, just look through the web!213.55.220.222 (
talk)
22:06, 1 June 2024 (UTC)reply
I was surprised to see the previous article removed. Dr Hughes is well known in international education. Have you googled him? Why should the article be reduced or deleted, according to who?213.55.220.222 (
talk)
15:24, 1 June 2024 (UTC)reply
The article is not removed, and "well known" should be supported by reliable secondary sources. "Have you googled him" is not a reasonable or helpful question to ask.
Drmies (
talk)
17:26, 1 June 2024 (UTC)reply
That's two interviews (
WP:BLPSPS) and coverage that includes Hughes talking about a different topic (the in-depth coverage is not about Hughes but AI in private schools). How does that approach
WP:ANYBIO?
JFHJr (
㊟)
20:57, 1 June 2024 (UTC)reply
The interviews have not been deleted. They're still at their URLs for anyone who googles this subject to find.
JFHJr (
㊟)
22:00, 1 June 2024 (UTC)reply
He has clearly made a widely recognized contribution that is part of the enduring historical record in education, just by his publications for the World Economic Forum, Springer, The Conversation, his doctoral research, and dozens of articles. He's a well respected scholar. This alone meets WP:ANYBIO
Lefka1 (
talk)
22:01, 1 June 2024 (UTC) —
Lefka1 (
talk •
contribs) has made
few or no other edits outside this topic. reply
I agree! Now, I'm genuinely curious about the motivation behind someone's relentless effort to delete an article about a reputable, leading practitioner in the field of international education.
Annabella25 (
talk)
17:11, 3 June 2024 (UTC)reply
You or whoever removed the first article took out lots of independent references. There's an interview with the International Baccalaureate for example. That's not a primary source, why are you removing it? There was also an article in the TES about him and by Cambridge's SHAPE. I am opposed to your proposal to delete this.213.55.220.222 (
talk)
22:04, 1 June 2024 (UTC)reply
OK, I'm about to block a socking account. The nay-sayers here likely have conflicts of interest, but worse than that they lack a proper understanding of what Wikipedia is and what the processes are. Interviews and whatnot do not count towards notability. If there is an "enduring historical record in education", there will be secondary sources that say that. That someone published articles also does not make them notable--unless others have written about those articles. If there's any more socking, this AfD will be semi-protected. Oh,
Lefka1, if you make any more comments about "personal vendetta" or whatever, I will happily block you too.
Drmies (
talk)
22:27, 1 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Hello. I'm intrigued by the controversy surrounding this article. I have no axe to grind about Hughes, one way or another, and I don't necessarily espouse his views, but - whether one likes it or not - he is unquestionably prominent and influential in international education, and increasingly so. Are the editors who propose the deletion of the article familiar with this field?
International educators throughout the world would be puzzled to hear that quite a small article devoted to Hughes has been earmarked for deletion, on the grounds of insufficient notability. An article providing some basic, sober information, free of "puffery", about who Hughes is and does fulfills Wikipedia's responsibility to inform its vast reading public, in an objective and neutral manner, about noteworthy people and topics, with the support of solid citations. I can't say I care enough about the Hughes article to do extensive research on its behalf, but as far as secondary sources go, you might look at the reputed TES journal (29 May 2020, "Rethinking school: a special issue", by Alistair McConville), the McKay interview with Hughes on World Radio Switzerland (29 February 2024), or the June 2024 "Formation" supplement ("Ces écoles centenaires") of Bilan magazine, page 4). So my advice, as an experienced Wikipedia reader (though not editor) would be DO NOT DELETE. All those in the field of international education understand why there is an article about Hughes in Wikipedia, regardless of whether they share his well-known educational goals.
By the way, I notice that some previous contributions to this discussion have been crossed out. Why, by whom, and on what authority? Those deleted comments are somewhat assertive, but by no means rude or irresponsible. I hope that this is not how Wikipedia functions, with certain editors censoring the reasonable contributions of others.83.79.254.53 (
talk)
10:43, 2 June 2024 (UTC)reply
@
Drmies, since your comment re page protection, we've gotten 2 new SPAs here, 1 more SPA at this page's talk; a blocked sock trying to vote here as an IP; a second IP that certainly belongs to one of the others; and more talk about a personal bias motivation (vendetta). If you have time today, could you please SPP this discussion? Any feedback is appreciated. Cheers!
JFHJr (
㊟)
17:20, 3 June 2024 (UTC)reply
JFHJr, just let it roll. Don't respond. Tag them as SPAs if you like, and straighten out their indenting. I ran CU on a couple and they're all roughly in the same area, but not enough for me to block them on technical grounds. I bet this will all be over soon.
Drmies (
talk)
17:23, 3 June 2024 (UTC)reply
KEEP. Hughes is a widely known figure in international education. To anybody who is knowledgeable about this field, that's obvious. I'm surprised that this can be such a controversial issue. Basic research about Hughes will confirm his notability.
77.59.138.101 (
talk)
18:08, 2 June 2024 (UTC)reply
The deletion proposal is not controversial. It does not require controversy to happen. Just a crappy article and crappy sources. The only controversy here is all the
WP:SOCKs, who are apparently determined to edit logged-out after blocks (editing logged-out is much like editing naked, leaves very little in doubt). You're making it much easier to tie a single sock to multiple IPs, so thank you!
JFHJr (
㊟)
18:16, 2 June 2024 (UTC)reply
KEEP. Dr. Hughes is a prominent figure in international education, widely respected for his significant contributions. He has authored two important books and numerous articles published in peer-reviewed journals, and he leads one of the oldest and most esteemed international schools in the world. His direct involvement with UNESCO and other international organizations, as well as his frequent invitations as a keynote speaker to global events, further underscore his expertise and influence in the field. Moreover, he holds two PhDs! Any attempt to delete his Wikipedia article may be motivated by personal bias rather than factual grounds. It's deeply troubling and shameful to witness someone of such high regard being placed in such a situation.
Annabella25 (
talk)
16:54, 3 June 2024 (UTC) —
Annabella25 (
talk •
contribs) has made
few or no other edits outside this topic. reply
Delete. The best case for notability is via NAUTHOR, but this would require multiple reviews of multiple works in reliable sources. Reviews are not evident, and I did not find them on my search; noting that searching is complicated by the subject's common name. The history of sockpuppetry and promotionalism here is indeed concerning.
Russ Woodroofe (
talk)
12:27, 4 June 2024 (UTC)reply
P.S. I have been taught at schools with IB and other independent ("private" or "prep") school for 5 years. I have never heard of him. He is not known world-wide, or at least not in New York City. 15:30, 5 June 2024 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's
talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.