The result was Delete. Subject may merit an article but looks better start from scratch due to several issues, namely scope unclear and possibly too broad. Discussion encourages creation of more specific articles and/or inclusion in other articles. (Anyone wanting it userfied or contents to merge please leave a note at my talk) - Nabla ( talk) 19:19, 3 April 2008 (UTC) reply
Delete. This page republishes previously deleted listcruft from the Pagliacci and Symphony No. 9 (Dvořák) articles. I understand it was created to illustrate a discussion on the Classical music project (see 'Music in popular culture'). I think it would have been better to create, and if necessary develop it, in userspace. Kleinzach ( talk) 09:30, 27 March 2008 (UTC) reply
By the same token, how can a discussion of the New World Symphony be complete without a reference to Dvorak's mission in the US, and the profound effect of this and his other American compositions on the American style. Dvorak was invited to the United States to aid in the creation of a distinctive national style, and the theme songs of Bonanza and the Lone Ranger have their roots in the ideas of this crazy drunken Czech. Of course, neither the original Pagliacci nor the NWS PC sections said these things - they had to be read, thought about, and rewritten from the original listcruft to something meaningful and coherent. That is why we are editors. To do this work. And it is only other editors' express refusal to do this work, and, instead, to perform unconsidered deletes, that led me to create this article. Fact: the PC section of Große Fuge got deleted and restored three times, before I had a chance to rewrite it, based on the original listcruft. No one has disagreed that the section as currently written is a meaningful addition to the article. Those of you who have already voted, please read the rewritten section of the article on Pagliacci and see if you don't agree that it is worthy of inclusion in the wikipedia, either in the context of this article, or as part of the original Pagliacci article - Ravpapa
Comment The current section on Pagliacci could easily be included in Pagliacci. I can't speak for anyone else here, but I'm not at all arguing that the cultural resonance of a classical piece outside its own genre does not belong in an article about the piece. In fact, I've argued for this in several discussions, e.g. [1], [2], as it demonstrates the piece's impact on the culture at large. I personally incorporate cultural references into opera articles via prose, where they are relevant and notable. See, for example, Nessun dorma and Cavalleria rusticana and its talk page. Lists of trivia are not 'lost' when removed from the article. I edit them to remove totally trivial mentions, put them on the article's talk page and invite other editors to incorporate them in the article via referenced prose, as I do.
What I'm arguing is that if this article is meant to be a 'repository' for all the deleted trivia, then it's misguided. As I argued above, it needs to be centered and focused on referenced published work on the actual topic, i.e. "classical music in popular culture". The actual examples, can then be incorporated as part of the discourse. It should not be centered on simply cataloguing and discussing non-classical contexts of use for particular pieces, whether they're written in continuous prose or as lists. That's the main problem. As it is now, this article puts the cart before the horse. It needs a theoretical underpinning from published sources on the overall topic first.
Once again, userfying the article will allow it to be developed into what is required for an encyclopedia article. And if editors are reminded that 'trivia' collections (or whatever people want to call them) should be moved to the articles' talk pages rather than simply deleted, there will be no problem of 'losing' material that could eventually be usefully incorporated into the individual articles. My view is that if a piece's cultural resonance is truly significant, it primarily belongs in the article on the piece itself (properly written up and referenced), not in a collection like Classical music in popular culture. If it's not significant enough to appear in the individual article, then what is doing in this one? Best, Voceditenore ( talk) 10:11, 31 March 2008 (UTC) reply
Comment Let's look at this from the opposite perspective. Maybe what's needed is to insert classical music into the popular culture articles at every opportunity. The Pagliacci connection is already discussed and linked in "' The Tears of a Clown" where it is absolutely central to the subject. Good! However, in an article about the opera Pagliacci, it is very tangential, as is just about every other use/quotation of the word pagliacci. The discussion more properly belongs in the former with a link to the latter as is the case now, with perhaps a "see also" at the end of Pagliacci.
Meanwhile, "Pal-Yat-Chee" in the Spike Jones article currently links directly to Vesti la giubba (with no explanation), when according to Classical music in popular culture, it doesn't incorporate the actual music in its tune and it's all a bit of a joke. Again, why not put the information in the Spike Jones article rather than the other way around? Pagliacci isn't even mentioned in the Clown article, for heaven's sake. Another example... if the fact that the Cavalleria rusticana "Intermezzo" is used in the anime series Rurouni Kenshin is not worthy enough to mention in the article on the series, why is it worthy of mention in Cavalleria rusticana?
However, what remains the real problem here (even more than the endless list-cruft this article will attract) is that it is highly subject to original research. References will have to be provided for each musical quotation (incorporation of actual melodies or passages) in other works. You'd either have to provide a link to the two scores or to give the name of a published author who says that one quotes the other. How else can the reader verify that the Norwegian black metal band Dimmu Borgir used part of Dvořák's 9th Symphony for their song "Guds Fortapelse - Apenbaring Av Dommedag"? Ditto for the use in various soundtracks. How else can the reader verify that the Cavalleria rusticana "Intermezzo" appears in sound track of Rurouni Kenshin or " Nessun dorma" is used in Toys? Those assertions have to be referenced to a published list of the complete soundrack.
There's also a conflation in the article between the quotation or use of actual music, and the quotation of or reference to characters or concepts in operas. Leoncavallo didn't invent the weeping clown, or even the story of Pagliacci (he took it from a play by someone else). The sad or weeping clown is goes back to Commedia dell'arte and was also a classic figure in late Romantic French literature. Now, I could easily write that his opera, because of its popularity and probably Caruso's recording, gave a modern 'handle' to the very old concept of the weeping clown. But that's clearly straying into original research and synthesis. That's not a piece of common knowledge like "the Earth is round". It requires a published source.
These are major problems with the article as it is currently conceived, i.e. a list of individual prose discussions of various references to/uses of classical music outside classical music plus added raw, unreferenced data to be incorporated at some later date. This has nothing to do with "refusing people a voice". Best, Voceditenore ( talk) 13:55, 1 April 2008 (UTC) reply
The result was Delete. Subject may merit an article but looks better start from scratch due to several issues, namely scope unclear and possibly too broad. Discussion encourages creation of more specific articles and/or inclusion in other articles. (Anyone wanting it userfied or contents to merge please leave a note at my talk) - Nabla ( talk) 19:19, 3 April 2008 (UTC) reply
Delete. This page republishes previously deleted listcruft from the Pagliacci and Symphony No. 9 (Dvořák) articles. I understand it was created to illustrate a discussion on the Classical music project (see 'Music in popular culture'). I think it would have been better to create, and if necessary develop it, in userspace. Kleinzach ( talk) 09:30, 27 March 2008 (UTC) reply
By the same token, how can a discussion of the New World Symphony be complete without a reference to Dvorak's mission in the US, and the profound effect of this and his other American compositions on the American style. Dvorak was invited to the United States to aid in the creation of a distinctive national style, and the theme songs of Bonanza and the Lone Ranger have their roots in the ideas of this crazy drunken Czech. Of course, neither the original Pagliacci nor the NWS PC sections said these things - they had to be read, thought about, and rewritten from the original listcruft to something meaningful and coherent. That is why we are editors. To do this work. And it is only other editors' express refusal to do this work, and, instead, to perform unconsidered deletes, that led me to create this article. Fact: the PC section of Große Fuge got deleted and restored three times, before I had a chance to rewrite it, based on the original listcruft. No one has disagreed that the section as currently written is a meaningful addition to the article. Those of you who have already voted, please read the rewritten section of the article on Pagliacci and see if you don't agree that it is worthy of inclusion in the wikipedia, either in the context of this article, or as part of the original Pagliacci article - Ravpapa
Comment The current section on Pagliacci could easily be included in Pagliacci. I can't speak for anyone else here, but I'm not at all arguing that the cultural resonance of a classical piece outside its own genre does not belong in an article about the piece. In fact, I've argued for this in several discussions, e.g. [1], [2], as it demonstrates the piece's impact on the culture at large. I personally incorporate cultural references into opera articles via prose, where they are relevant and notable. See, for example, Nessun dorma and Cavalleria rusticana and its talk page. Lists of trivia are not 'lost' when removed from the article. I edit them to remove totally trivial mentions, put them on the article's talk page and invite other editors to incorporate them in the article via referenced prose, as I do.
What I'm arguing is that if this article is meant to be a 'repository' for all the deleted trivia, then it's misguided. As I argued above, it needs to be centered and focused on referenced published work on the actual topic, i.e. "classical music in popular culture". The actual examples, can then be incorporated as part of the discourse. It should not be centered on simply cataloguing and discussing non-classical contexts of use for particular pieces, whether they're written in continuous prose or as lists. That's the main problem. As it is now, this article puts the cart before the horse. It needs a theoretical underpinning from published sources on the overall topic first.
Once again, userfying the article will allow it to be developed into what is required for an encyclopedia article. And if editors are reminded that 'trivia' collections (or whatever people want to call them) should be moved to the articles' talk pages rather than simply deleted, there will be no problem of 'losing' material that could eventually be usefully incorporated into the individual articles. My view is that if a piece's cultural resonance is truly significant, it primarily belongs in the article on the piece itself (properly written up and referenced), not in a collection like Classical music in popular culture. If it's not significant enough to appear in the individual article, then what is doing in this one? Best, Voceditenore ( talk) 10:11, 31 March 2008 (UTC) reply
Comment Let's look at this from the opposite perspective. Maybe what's needed is to insert classical music into the popular culture articles at every opportunity. The Pagliacci connection is already discussed and linked in "' The Tears of a Clown" where it is absolutely central to the subject. Good! However, in an article about the opera Pagliacci, it is very tangential, as is just about every other use/quotation of the word pagliacci. The discussion more properly belongs in the former with a link to the latter as is the case now, with perhaps a "see also" at the end of Pagliacci.
Meanwhile, "Pal-Yat-Chee" in the Spike Jones article currently links directly to Vesti la giubba (with no explanation), when according to Classical music in popular culture, it doesn't incorporate the actual music in its tune and it's all a bit of a joke. Again, why not put the information in the Spike Jones article rather than the other way around? Pagliacci isn't even mentioned in the Clown article, for heaven's sake. Another example... if the fact that the Cavalleria rusticana "Intermezzo" is used in the anime series Rurouni Kenshin is not worthy enough to mention in the article on the series, why is it worthy of mention in Cavalleria rusticana?
However, what remains the real problem here (even more than the endless list-cruft this article will attract) is that it is highly subject to original research. References will have to be provided for each musical quotation (incorporation of actual melodies or passages) in other works. You'd either have to provide a link to the two scores or to give the name of a published author who says that one quotes the other. How else can the reader verify that the Norwegian black metal band Dimmu Borgir used part of Dvořák's 9th Symphony for their song "Guds Fortapelse - Apenbaring Av Dommedag"? Ditto for the use in various soundtracks. How else can the reader verify that the Cavalleria rusticana "Intermezzo" appears in sound track of Rurouni Kenshin or " Nessun dorma" is used in Toys? Those assertions have to be referenced to a published list of the complete soundrack.
There's also a conflation in the article between the quotation or use of actual music, and the quotation of or reference to characters or concepts in operas. Leoncavallo didn't invent the weeping clown, or even the story of Pagliacci (he took it from a play by someone else). The sad or weeping clown is goes back to Commedia dell'arte and was also a classic figure in late Romantic French literature. Now, I could easily write that his opera, because of its popularity and probably Caruso's recording, gave a modern 'handle' to the very old concept of the weeping clown. But that's clearly straying into original research and synthesis. That's not a piece of common knowledge like "the Earth is round". It requires a published source.
These are major problems with the article as it is currently conceived, i.e. a list of individual prose discussions of various references to/uses of classical music outside classical music plus added raw, unreferenced data to be incorporated at some later date. This has nothing to do with "refusing people a voice". Best, Voceditenore ( talk) 13:55, 1 April 2008 (UTC) reply