The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. Spartaz ^Humbug! 21:14, 28 April 2018 (UTC) reply

Chris S. Sims (game designer)

Chris S. Sims (game designer) (  | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log · Stats)

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Seems that there is very little information on the subject and the person just seems like someone that isn't notable. startTerminal ( haha wow talk page | startTerminal on irc) 04:07, 20 April 2018 (UTC) reply

• Keep if more sources can be found, otherwise move to WP:DRAFT space. BOZ ( talk) 04:13, 20 April 2018 (UTC) reply

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Video games-related deletion discussions. Every morning (there's a halo...) 04:37, 20 April 2018 (UTC) reply

Delete - Moving the article to a draft does not help the fact that sources don't really exist about him. ~ Dissident93 ^{( talk)} 05:11, 20 April 2018 (UTC) reply

Keep - There are sources about him, for example [1] this listing of books that he is editor or co-editor. In addition, he is not a video-game designer, he is a pen and paper RPG and board-game designer. K-pachs ( talk) 08:19, 20 April 2018 (UTC) reply

Keep - Notable game designer. Link to D&D Rules Compendium, clearly edited by Chris Sims: Rules Compendium (Dungeons & Dragons Edition 3.5) I agree that there should be more references added, though.
Update: List on Amazon with all the books that he edited. Come on, this is impressive! Interstellarpoliceman ( talk) 08:25, 20 April 2018 (UTC) reply

Keep... several of Sims' publications have unchallenged WP articles, but the author is not deemed worthy of his own WP article? --- Normosphere ( talk) 09:40, 20 April 2018 (UTC) reply

@ Normosphere: The "unchallenged WP articles" you mention contain zero references. wumbolo ^^^ 22:11, 24 April 2018 (UTC) reply

Monster Manual, e.g., is definitely unchallenged. --- Normosphere ( talk) 08:47, 25 April 2018 (UTC) reply

@ Normosphere: so you're saying that each of the 15 designers of a book deserve a Wikipedia article? wumbolo ^^^ 13:42, 25 April 2018 (UTC) reply

@ Wumbolo: Weird argumentation. In the, let's say, scientific realm it's no problem to have 5, 10, 15 co-authors or editors of a study or book. This is not about numbers. If the specific authors are relevant in the field, then why the heck not? But let's stick to the actual example (M.M.): There are multiple versions/issues of the book, and each has its own team of editors. All editors have careers and are more or less notable. Significance should be addressed for each individual. Concerning Sims: He is a known professional in game design and development, works/worked on notable projects for 2 of the biggest players (Wizards and Paizo) in the industry, is an award-winner, and is even known beyond his field (-> the arts; references are in the article). Interstellarpoliceman ( talk) 15:35, 25 April 2018 (UTC) reply

@ Interstellarpoliceman: then it's weird argumentation of Normosphere, who I was replying to. I am convinced that the subject is notable, but for the reasons you mentioned and are already mentioned in the other "Keep" votes. wumbolo ^^^ 15:45, 25 April 2018 (UTC) reply

@ Wumbolo: Oh, I see. Seems I misread the gist of your remark @ Normosphere... sorry! Interstellarpoliceman ( talk) 16:11, 25 April 2018 (UTC) reply

• Keep has co-authored two New York Times and Wall Street Journal bestseller list books and has also won a number of awards Atlantic306 ( talk) 10:22, 20 April 2018 (UTC) reply
• Comment The article subject needs to satisfy WP:SIGCOV. Goodreads is Non RS, listings of books is not RS, nor is an amazon search. There has been a bunch of non arguments so far, Good reads and Amazon are both non RS. He should be notable, and solid secondary sources are needed. So far there is no evidence for this. scope_creep ( talk) 10:09, 25 April 2018 (UTC) reply
• Comment There are other references such as a 55 minute program about him on Twitch which is a reliable source and is significant coverage, there is also a number of references that contain verification of his multiple awards and there is a reference to an independent review of one of his books as well as an offline newspaper source to confirm the bestselling status of two of his books Atlantic306 ( talk) 10:40, 25 April 2018 (UTC) reply
• Comment Added references. Please check if WP-worthy. Concerning Goodreads/Amazon: What book sources are reliable? OpenLibrary? [2] K-pachs ( talk) 12:49, 25 April 2018 (UTC) reply
• Comment. The subject does lack significant coverage. Definitely fails WP:GNG. I didn't check with the other notability guidelines like WP:NPERSON. @ Atlantic306: if by Twitch you mean Twitch.tv, that is unsuitable for proving notability as it is a WP:PRIMARY source. wumbolo ^^^ 16:26, 25 April 2018 (UTC) reply
• Comment. Biography on Q21 is fact-checked by Museumsquartier Vienna (credentials as part of the official invitation process for artist-in-residence). Added academic reference. Interstellarpoliceman ( talk) 09:03, 26 April 2018 (UTC) reply

• Delete No secondary coverage, after a week of cogitation. All sources are primary except for one, which is not enough for BLP sourcing. Fails WP:BIO. Fails WP:SIGCOV. scope_creep ( talk) 11:31, 26 April 2018 (UTC) reply
• Keep Four academic references. They are print references, but still academic publications. Zydake ( talk) 11:59, 26 April 2018 (UTC) reply
• Note to closing admin. Zydake is a SPA account with obvious WP:COI. scope_creep ( talk) 12:27, 26 April 2018 (UTC) reply
• Delete Every source I have checked does not mention him by name. Sorry but he needs to be independently notable, not part of a team. Notability is not inherited, Just because you were part of something notable (such as working for a government department, or participating in the London Marathon) does not make you are notable. Slatersteven ( talk) 16:51, 26 April 2018 (UTC) reply

Comment: Sorry that it's looking like I'm Sim's personal agent here... I really have no stakes in this, but it feels a bit strange. a) The Wizards RPG Team is quite clearly defined as Sims, Noonan and Schwalb. b) He has academic merits and is being referred to. c) Credible art institutions (like Museumsquartier and Vienna Art Week bring him to Europe to create games-based art, and it's documented. d) Most RPG game designers (like Rob Heinsoo and Robert J. Schwalb) have comparable WP pages and have the same references as Sims (e.g. ENnie Awards, which got removed from the article). If Sims' notability is really challenged, then we really have to look at all the other RPG game developers as well. They are all creative people, but they are of course working within the realm of a brand like D&D, and those brands are interested in actually keeping the developers' names off their official pages to keep a monolithic face to the public. This is also a structural problem, that's I guess what I'm trying to say. Interstellarpoliceman ( talk) 17:14, 26 April 2018 (UTC) reply

Best Role-Playing Game Supplement

Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting

Ed Greenwood, Sean K. Reynolds, Skip Williams, Rob Heinsoo

Wizards of the Coast

Mentioned by name.

But you may well be right, many of these people may not pass muster. Slatersteven ( talk) 17:29, 26 April 2018 (UTC) reply

Most of the books referenced in the article state him as the author, have a look at all the story writing for D&D and Paizo. But I'm reiterating my statement that this might be a massive structural problem hitting many creative people that work for corporations. It's a debate about authorship and recognition in the corporate sphere. (I sound like I'm working for a union, but I have to say this topic is close to my heart, as a creative worker myself.) Interstellarpoliceman ( talk) 18:05, 26 April 2018 (UTC) reply

Maybe you are right, but this is not the place to right corporate wrongs. And it does not matter if he is an author of a work, what matters is that if that authorship is notable. Now every time I looked at an award it did not mention him, I do not care why. Slatersteven ( talk) 18:09, 26 April 2018 (UTC) reply

jumping in: are you saying that only winning an award makes a game designer notable? ---- Normosphere ( talk) 19:38, 26 April 2018 (UTC) reply

Errr, no I am saying that not being mentioned as winning an award fails verifabilty, and thus cannot be used to establish notability. Slatersteven ( talk) 09:39, 27 April 2018 (UTC) reply

Note I have now checked a couple of sources that "discus his work", and either I have the wrong ones or it is a case of "They discus stuff he has worked on" (which is not the same thing). Notability is not inherited. Slatersteven ( talk) 10:27, 27 April 2018 (UTC) reply

the one i added is about him. (games and simulation) ---- Normosphere ( talk) 11:47, 27 April 2018 (UTC) reply

That was then one I was referring to, which does not contain a single instance of the word Sims. Please check the talk page of the article. Slatersteven ( talk) 12:30, 27 April 2018 (UTC) reply

• Delete - sourced to primary sources and sources that do not mention Sims or verify the content they claim to. Fails WP:GNG, no significant coverage. Melcous ( talk) 09:38, 28 April 2018 (UTC) reply
• Keep - Browsed all ~40 articles on WP (part of WikiProject Dungeons&Dragons) that link to Chris S. Sims' article. He was involved in the creation of a lot of content within D&D and is cited as the writer and designer. Plus: the fact that he created the first story for a brand-new product line at Paizo (Starfinder) is definitely noteworthy. Plus: work as an artist for a notable institution. MisterBrubaker ( talk) 10:18, 28 April 2018 (UTC) reply

Which organisation does he work (rather then has done one work) for? Slatersteven ( talk) 11:51, 28 April 2018 (UTC) reply

Paizo (Starfinder). MisterBrubaker ( talk) 12:04, 28 April 2018 (UTC) reply

Ahh you meant worked as an illustration for RPG products. Slatersteven ( talk) 12:15, 28 April 2018 (UTC) reply

And his artist invitation to Vienna. MisterBrubaker ( talk) 12:22, 28 April 2018 (UTC) reply

And which institution was that (and is it a job)? Slatersteven ( talk) 12:29, 28 April 2018 (UTC) reply

He was an artist in residence, invited by Museumsquartier in Vienna in autumn 2017. The link is already in the article. Don't understand why it's marked as not in citation given. Vienna Art Week featured one of his projects during the residency. [3] Here is another link on eSeL.at [4]. (I assume that's also the project that Trummel, Cosima is referring to. I can't help with verifying that link, though.) MisterBrubaker ( talk) 12:44, 28 April 2018 (UTC) reply

Clarification: with "work for" I mean "was invited by". MisterBrubaker ( talk) 12:46, 28 April 2018 (UTC) reply

Because the link does not use the word Awarded, which implies something that is not supported by the source. Also the Museum Quarter is not an institution, it is a geographical area that contains them (so it is hard to see how it can award anything). Indeed it may well be he was only invited for one week (and thus was not employed by them) as a visiting artist, or as a favour. The fact is the source does not explain what it was (or signifies). Many arts festivals invite people, that does not mean they have tenure (which is what is being implied here, a kind of tenure). Slatersteven ( talk) 12:52, 28 April 2018 (UTC) reply

I think I can clear that up. Museumsquartier IS an institution (financed by the Austrian gov), it is the umbrella brand and organization of the area. It has a lot of budget and, among other projects, runs an artist in residence program. Artists get a stipend to come and work at Museusmquartier Q21 as part of the AiR program. ("Q21 hosts around 50 cultural initiatives, 9 Artists-in-Residence studios and an exhibition space. The creative space is spread across over 7,000 sqm.") Artist then collaborate with local events (like Vienna Art Week) to create work. In his case it was roleplaying performances. Here is some additional material I found that mentions or shows Chris Sims. [5] [6] [7] MisterBrubaker ( talk) 13:06, 28 April 2018 (UTC) reply

Well that is not how they describe themselves [8] they do not say they are an institution, but an area that encompasses them. It may well be like (say) convent garden market or a national heritage area, or maybe it is like the IWM, one institution spread over many venues. But we need a source saying what it is, and at this time they seem to say they are more like the first two, an areas that has many separate bodies within it (in the same way a city of culture is (for a year) an area that encompasses cultural activities, but is itself not a cultural institution). Nor do any of your new sources say that being a resident artist is a notable achievement. Slatersteven ( talk) 13:31, 28 April 2018 (UTC) reply

First: Here is the description on TransArtist (art residency guide) with all the information I mentioned. This should count as a secondary reference, doesn't it? [9] Here is also a description on wien.info [10] I think it is important to say that this is an official program with a coordinator within MQ, and it is quite a privilege to be able to do this. Artists and researchers like Invader (artist), Evan Roth or Jake Appelbaum have done this before.
Second: The English WP article about Museumsquartier is not covering any of this, nor how MQ is structured. The German one is better, with reliable sources (important part is the one about Betriebsgesellschaft, the factility and marketing organisation that also handles Q21 and the residency program). [11] MisterBrubaker ( talk) 14:26, 28 April 2018 (UTC) reply

• Comment So far we have had a bunch of primary sources offered by the filing editors that had them and the article, along with a bunch of others, up at WP:COI a couple of weeks ago. Regarding the academic references, they have been proven false on work done by Slatersteven on the homecomputer ref which is a phd thesis, and doesn't have reference within in (which is still in the article), the Trummel, Cosima references appears also appears be fake, along with the Williams, D ref, which I can't locate, even after, over a week looking for it. Now we have a bunch of non RS and primary sources offered by MisterBrubaker. In addition, Ref 1..10 is invalid, non RS sources. refs 12..20 is the same.

Regarding the The Sabin, Philip. Simulating War: Studying Conflict through Simulation Games By. Bloomsbury Academic. p. 289 references seems to fake as well: Here is a reference for it:

<ref name="Sabin2012">{{cite book|author=Philip Sabin|title=Simulating War: Studying Conflict Through Simulation Games|url=https://books.google.com/books?id=tU9mkcL2XjEC|accessdate=28 April 2018|date=26 January 2012|publisher=A&C Black|isbn=978-1-4411-8558-7|page=289}}</ref>

Page 289 does not mention Sims, nor his full name, nor the game mentioned in the lede. Page 289 is notes for chapter 1 of the book. So the ref is fake. Another fake ref. All in all, in the beginning it looked like Sims was notable, but as the Afd has progressed, there seems to be have been a concerted effort to build a consensus for notability where it doesnt exist. Fails WP:BIO, WP:SIGCOV and subsequently WP:GNG. Delete and Salt scope_creep ( talk) 20:18, 28 April 2018 (UTC) reply

And there seems to be an aspect of WP:CANVASSING going on. scope_creep ( talk) 20:31, 28 April 2018 (UTC) reply

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.