- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was delete. -- RoySmith (talk) 23:38, 4 May 2014 (UTC)
Chang Welch
- Chang Welch ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log · Stats)
- (Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
Non notable boxer/trainer. Peter Rehse ( talk) 10:25, 24 April 2014 (UTC)
- Note: This debate has been included in the list of Martial arts-related deletion discussions. Peter Rehse ( talk) 10:25, 24 April 2014 (UTC)
- Note: This debate has been included in the list of Ohio-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k ( talk) 14:42, 24 April 2014 (UTC)
- Note: This debate has been included in the list of American football-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k ( talk) 14:42, 24 April 2014 (UTC)
- Note: This debate has been included in the list of Sportspeople-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k ( talk) 14:42, 24 April 2014 (UTC)
- Comment Not notable based on the article's sources. Is being a member of the World Boxing Hall of Fame enough for notability? It isn't for fighters, but I don't know about for trainers. Mdtemp ( talk) 15:50, 24 April 2014 (UTC)
- The way the article is written is confusing to say the least. The reference link goes to his brother and he (the brother) was inducted into the World Hall of Fame not Chang Welch. Whether the Hall of Fame entry makes a difference I am also not sure but I probably would not haver nominated it if he had - benefit of the doubt and all that. Peter Rehse ( talk) 16:06, 24 April 2014 (UTC)
- Delete No significant coverage or indication of notability. The article is poorly sourced and the existing link is for his brother, not him. Mdtemp ( talk) 18:45, 24 April 2014 (UTC)
- Keep Played professionall football, normally considered an automatic pass. I'm accepting good faith on that data at this point so references would help for sure. And the article should be cleaned up. But those are all "editing" issues and not "deletion" issues.-- Paul McDonald ( talk) 20:23, 24 April 2014 (UTC)
- There are hundreds of semi-pro football teams. Playing in the "Ohio League" doesn't sound the same as playing in the NFL. Yes I know some teams in the Ohio League jointed other teams to become part of a league that later became the NFL. However, I don't think that means all Ohio League players are automatically notable--especially without sources.
Mdtemp (
talk) 22:28, 24 April 2014 (UTC)
- This was 1916-1918. The NFL didn't form until 1920. When the NFL did form, the "Akron Indians" had renamed themselves as the "Akron Pros" and were one of the four teams that met originally to form the NFL. They are a founding team.--
Paul McDonald (
talk) 17:55, 25 April 2014 (UTC)
- I would say the lack of sources is not just "an editing issue"--it's in direct conflict with
WP:V and
WP:RS.
Papaursa (
talk) 01:51, 27 April 2014 (UTC)
- Actually (and strangely) no. Verifiability states that the information can be verified, not necessarily that the sources of that verification are added to the article. That is what makes it an editing issue--the sources should be added.-- Paul McDonald ( talk) 16:20, 27 April 2014 (UTC)
- I would say the lack of sources is not just "an editing issue"--it's in direct conflict with
WP:V and
WP:RS.
Papaursa (
talk) 01:51, 27 April 2014 (UTC)
- This was 1916-1918. The NFL didn't form until 1920. When the NFL did form, the "Akron Indians" had renamed themselves as the "Akron Pros" and were one of the four teams that met originally to form the NFL. They are a founding team.--
Paul McDonald (
talk) 17:55, 25 April 2014 (UTC)
- There are hundreds of semi-pro football teams. Playing in the "Ohio League" doesn't sound the same as playing in the NFL. Yes I know some teams in the Ohio League jointed other teams to become part of a league that later became the NFL. However, I don't think that means all Ohio League players are automatically notable--especially without sources.
Mdtemp (
talk) 22:28, 24 April 2014 (UTC)
- Delete Fails NGRIDIRON and GNG. The Ohio League is not listed among the leagues the grant automatic notability and the article shows no significant coverage of him. 204.126.132.231 ( talk) 15:37, 25 April 2014 (UTC)
- Delete No supported claims of notability. Even if the claim of playing football for Akron is true, according to the article he was no longer playing for them when the NFL's predecessor league was formed. The claim for keeping the article appears to rest on the assumption that anyone who once played for a team that later became an NFL team is notable. That seems a stretch to me.
Papaursa (
talk) 01:51, 27 April 2014 (UTC)
- Comment I'm afraid that is incorrect. The Ohio League was one of the predecessor leagues to the NFL. The Akron Pros article shows evidence that the minutes of the meeting to form the league were actually kept on stationary for the Akron Pros. Clearly this was one of the premiere professional teams in that time frame on the national level.-- Paul McDonald ( talk) 16:24, 27 April 2014 (UTC)
- The Ohio League is not listed at
WP:NGRIDIRON as being sufficient to show notability. In fact, NGRIDIRON clearly excludes playing for semi-pro teams, which is what the Akron Indians article says the team was when Welch supposedly played for them. Finally, the only reference of him is a one line mention in his brother's boxing biography at boxrec.com. That's at best a passing mention and I'm not sure boxrec can even be considered a reliable source for that purpose.
Mdtemp (
talk) 18:40, 28 April 2014 (UTC)
- I'm not seeing where it was a semi-pro team during that time period. I'll concede the sourcing/reference comments because they are shaky at best.--
Paul McDonald (
talk) 20:35, 28 April 2014 (UTC)
- If we use the Wikipedia article it only says that the Indians started out semi-Pro and that the Aarkon Pros were professional. Not clear when the transition to professional occurred - at the name change or before. Just saying.
Peter Rehse (
talk) 20:59, 28 April 2014 (UTC)
- Peter makes a valid point about not really being able to tell when it went from semi-pro to pro (plus using WP itself as a source is frowned on). However, Mdtemp is also right about the Ohio League not granting automatic notability and there being no significant coverage of him at all, much less in reliable sources. There's certainly nothing that shows he was notable as a boxing trainer. Does a redirect to
Suey Welch make any sense?
Papaursa (
talk) 04:09, 29 April 2014 (UTC)
- Bear in mind that "professional" football was extremely different in the early years than the later years. Many colleges used professional players against the rules (called "ringers" at the time). It was in 1892 when William Heffelfinger received the first professional payment on record for playing football, and that was kept secret until 1960.-- Paul McDonald ( talk) 16:21, 29 April 2014 (UTC)
- Peter makes a valid point about not really being able to tell when it went from semi-pro to pro (plus using WP itself as a source is frowned on). However, Mdtemp is also right about the Ohio League not granting automatic notability and there being no significant coverage of him at all, much less in reliable sources. There's certainly nothing that shows he was notable as a boxing trainer. Does a redirect to
Suey Welch make any sense?
Papaursa (
talk) 04:09, 29 April 2014 (UTC)
- If we use the Wikipedia article it only says that the Indians started out semi-Pro and that the Aarkon Pros were professional. Not clear when the transition to professional occurred - at the name change or before. Just saying.
Peter Rehse (
talk) 20:59, 28 April 2014 (UTC)
- I'm not seeing where it was a semi-pro team during that time period. I'll concede the sourcing/reference comments because they are shaky at best.--
Paul McDonald (
talk) 20:35, 28 April 2014 (UTC)
- The Ohio League is not listed at
WP:NGRIDIRON as being sufficient to show notability. In fact, NGRIDIRON clearly excludes playing for semi-pro teams, which is what the Akron Indians article says the team was when Welch supposedly played for them. Finally, the only reference of him is a one line mention in his brother's boxing biography at boxrec.com. That's at best a passing mention and I'm not sure boxrec can even be considered a reliable source for that purpose.
Mdtemp (
talk) 18:40, 28 April 2014 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was delete. -- RoySmith (talk) 23:38, 4 May 2014 (UTC)
Chang Welch
- Chang Welch ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log · Stats)
- (Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
Non notable boxer/trainer. Peter Rehse ( talk) 10:25, 24 April 2014 (UTC)
- Note: This debate has been included in the list of Martial arts-related deletion discussions. Peter Rehse ( talk) 10:25, 24 April 2014 (UTC)
- Note: This debate has been included in the list of Ohio-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k ( talk) 14:42, 24 April 2014 (UTC)
- Note: This debate has been included in the list of American football-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k ( talk) 14:42, 24 April 2014 (UTC)
- Note: This debate has been included in the list of Sportspeople-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k ( talk) 14:42, 24 April 2014 (UTC)
- Comment Not notable based on the article's sources. Is being a member of the World Boxing Hall of Fame enough for notability? It isn't for fighters, but I don't know about for trainers. Mdtemp ( talk) 15:50, 24 April 2014 (UTC)
- The way the article is written is confusing to say the least. The reference link goes to his brother and he (the brother) was inducted into the World Hall of Fame not Chang Welch. Whether the Hall of Fame entry makes a difference I am also not sure but I probably would not haver nominated it if he had - benefit of the doubt and all that. Peter Rehse ( talk) 16:06, 24 April 2014 (UTC)
- Delete No significant coverage or indication of notability. The article is poorly sourced and the existing link is for his brother, not him. Mdtemp ( talk) 18:45, 24 April 2014 (UTC)
- Keep Played professionall football, normally considered an automatic pass. I'm accepting good faith on that data at this point so references would help for sure. And the article should be cleaned up. But those are all "editing" issues and not "deletion" issues.-- Paul McDonald ( talk) 20:23, 24 April 2014 (UTC)
- There are hundreds of semi-pro football teams. Playing in the "Ohio League" doesn't sound the same as playing in the NFL. Yes I know some teams in the Ohio League jointed other teams to become part of a league that later became the NFL. However, I don't think that means all Ohio League players are automatically notable--especially without sources.
Mdtemp (
talk) 22:28, 24 April 2014 (UTC)
- This was 1916-1918. The NFL didn't form until 1920. When the NFL did form, the "Akron Indians" had renamed themselves as the "Akron Pros" and were one of the four teams that met originally to form the NFL. They are a founding team.--
Paul McDonald (
talk) 17:55, 25 April 2014 (UTC)
- I would say the lack of sources is not just "an editing issue"--it's in direct conflict with
WP:V and
WP:RS.
Papaursa (
talk) 01:51, 27 April 2014 (UTC)
- Actually (and strangely) no. Verifiability states that the information can be verified, not necessarily that the sources of that verification are added to the article. That is what makes it an editing issue--the sources should be added.-- Paul McDonald ( talk) 16:20, 27 April 2014 (UTC)
- I would say the lack of sources is not just "an editing issue"--it's in direct conflict with
WP:V and
WP:RS.
Papaursa (
talk) 01:51, 27 April 2014 (UTC)
- This was 1916-1918. The NFL didn't form until 1920. When the NFL did form, the "Akron Indians" had renamed themselves as the "Akron Pros" and were one of the four teams that met originally to form the NFL. They are a founding team.--
Paul McDonald (
talk) 17:55, 25 April 2014 (UTC)
- There are hundreds of semi-pro football teams. Playing in the "Ohio League" doesn't sound the same as playing in the NFL. Yes I know some teams in the Ohio League jointed other teams to become part of a league that later became the NFL. However, I don't think that means all Ohio League players are automatically notable--especially without sources.
Mdtemp (
talk) 22:28, 24 April 2014 (UTC)
- Delete Fails NGRIDIRON and GNG. The Ohio League is not listed among the leagues the grant automatic notability and the article shows no significant coverage of him. 204.126.132.231 ( talk) 15:37, 25 April 2014 (UTC)
- Delete No supported claims of notability. Even if the claim of playing football for Akron is true, according to the article he was no longer playing for them when the NFL's predecessor league was formed. The claim for keeping the article appears to rest on the assumption that anyone who once played for a team that later became an NFL team is notable. That seems a stretch to me.
Papaursa (
talk) 01:51, 27 April 2014 (UTC)
- Comment I'm afraid that is incorrect. The Ohio League was one of the predecessor leagues to the NFL. The Akron Pros article shows evidence that the minutes of the meeting to form the league were actually kept on stationary for the Akron Pros. Clearly this was one of the premiere professional teams in that time frame on the national level.-- Paul McDonald ( talk) 16:24, 27 April 2014 (UTC)
- The Ohio League is not listed at
WP:NGRIDIRON as being sufficient to show notability. In fact, NGRIDIRON clearly excludes playing for semi-pro teams, which is what the Akron Indians article says the team was when Welch supposedly played for them. Finally, the only reference of him is a one line mention in his brother's boxing biography at boxrec.com. That's at best a passing mention and I'm not sure boxrec can even be considered a reliable source for that purpose.
Mdtemp (
talk) 18:40, 28 April 2014 (UTC)
- I'm not seeing where it was a semi-pro team during that time period. I'll concede the sourcing/reference comments because they are shaky at best.--
Paul McDonald (
talk) 20:35, 28 April 2014 (UTC)
- If we use the Wikipedia article it only says that the Indians started out semi-Pro and that the Aarkon Pros were professional. Not clear when the transition to professional occurred - at the name change or before. Just saying.
Peter Rehse (
talk) 20:59, 28 April 2014 (UTC)
- Peter makes a valid point about not really being able to tell when it went from semi-pro to pro (plus using WP itself as a source is frowned on). However, Mdtemp is also right about the Ohio League not granting automatic notability and there being no significant coverage of him at all, much less in reliable sources. There's certainly nothing that shows he was notable as a boxing trainer. Does a redirect to
Suey Welch make any sense?
Papaursa (
talk) 04:09, 29 April 2014 (UTC)
- Bear in mind that "professional" football was extremely different in the early years than the later years. Many colleges used professional players against the rules (called "ringers" at the time). It was in 1892 when William Heffelfinger received the first professional payment on record for playing football, and that was kept secret until 1960.-- Paul McDonald ( talk) 16:21, 29 April 2014 (UTC)
- Peter makes a valid point about not really being able to tell when it went from semi-pro to pro (plus using WP itself as a source is frowned on). However, Mdtemp is also right about the Ohio League not granting automatic notability and there being no significant coverage of him at all, much less in reliable sources. There's certainly nothing that shows he was notable as a boxing trainer. Does a redirect to
Suey Welch make any sense?
Papaursa (
talk) 04:09, 29 April 2014 (UTC)
- If we use the Wikipedia article it only says that the Indians started out semi-Pro and that the Aarkon Pros were professional. Not clear when the transition to professional occurred - at the name change or before. Just saying.
Peter Rehse (
talk) 20:59, 28 April 2014 (UTC)
- I'm not seeing where it was a semi-pro team during that time period. I'll concede the sourcing/reference comments because they are shaky at best.--
Paul McDonald (
talk) 20:35, 28 April 2014 (UTC)
- The Ohio League is not listed at
WP:NGRIDIRON as being sufficient to show notability. In fact, NGRIDIRON clearly excludes playing for semi-pro teams, which is what the Akron Indians article says the team was when Welch supposedly played for them. Finally, the only reference of him is a one line mention in his brother's boxing biography at boxrec.com. That's at best a passing mention and I'm not sure boxrec can even be considered a reliable source for that purpose.
Mdtemp (
talk) 18:40, 28 April 2014 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.