- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was delete. -- Patar knight - chat/ contributions 16:40, 9 March 2023 (UTC)
Caspian (rapper)
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- Caspian (rapper) ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log | edits since nomination)
- (Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
WP:BLP, started in draftspace and then immediately moved to mainspace by its own creator without
WP:AFC review, of a musician not
properly sourced as passing
WP:NMUSIC. The notability claim here basically amounts to "musician who exists", with the article documenting nothing about his career that would even be measurable against any of NMUSIC's accomplishment-based criteria -- and there are just four references (one of which has been redundantly reduplicated as two separate cites, for five footnotes but only four actual sources), of which two are Q&A interviews in which he's talking about himself in the first person rather than having his significance analyzed in the third, one is just one of his own songs metaverifying its own existence on YouTube, and one is a short blurb not substantive enough to carry him over
WP:GNG all by itself if it's the most GNG-worthy source on the table.
This is not enough to get him over the "notable because media coverage exists" hump, but nothing stated here is "inherently" notable enough to exempt him from having to have stronger referencing than this either.
Bearcat (
talk) 12:44, 2 March 2023 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Bands and musicians and Canada. Bearcat ( talk) 12:44, 2 March 2023 (UTC)
- We apologize for moving to mainspace without WP:AFC review. The subject has been well covered and signed to multiple record labels (CP Music Group, StealthBomb Records). Every notable collaboration he has worked with have pages on Wikipedia and are tagged in the article. Cites include well known and reputable online sites including vice.com in two different articles. The third cite article mentioned is from one of the biggest online hip hop websites Worldstarhiphop.com. We will add more information in the article but please ask to not delete this page as there are interfering search results between the subject and a rock band with the similar name. Thank you
Samroth33 (
talk) 13:08, 2 March 2023 (UTC)
- "Signed to record labels" is not, in and of itself, a Wikipedia inclusion criterion, and neither is "has collaborated with other people who have Wikipedia articles". You also appear, from your tone here, to have a direct
conflict of interest with regard to Caspian, so please be aware that people who have a direct personal stake in his career (such as himself, his own record label, his own management team, and the like) are not who gets to decide whether he gets a Wikipedia article or not — our inclusion criteria are clear, and you have not adequately demonstrated that he meets them.
Bearcat (
talk) 13:18, 2 March 2023 (UTC)
- Thank you for the reply, is there anything else we can add to the article to resolve this issue. As mentioned above, it seems he meets all criteria for a article.
Samroth33 (
talk) 13:33, 2 March 2023 (UTC)
- You have not demonstrated that he "meets all criteria for a article". You need to read
WP:NMUSIC, and show third party
reliable source coverage about him which demonstrates that he meets one or more of the inclusion criteria listed there. Not wrapped YouTube videos, and not interviews in which he's talking about himself in the first person: third-party coverage in which other people are talking or writing in the third person about his achievement of something that would satisfy an NMUSIC criterion.
Bearcat (
talk) 14:15, 2 March 2023 (UTC)
- Thank you, i have added more cites to the article, there are 10 cites now. We will continue to update it as we search for more articles.
Samroth33 (
talk) 14:31, 2 March 2023 (UTC)
- Nope, you're not getting it. For example, you don't get a musician over the touring criterion by using a concert listings calendar to verify the existence of a tour — you get a musician over the touring criterion by using media coverage about the tour (i.e. concert reviews in the major newspapers) to demonstrate that the tour was deemed significant by professional music journalists. Bearcat ( talk) 15:20, 2 March 2023 (UTC)
- Thank you, i have added more cites to the article, there are 10 cites now. We will continue to update it as we search for more articles.
Samroth33 (
talk) 14:31, 2 March 2023 (UTC)
- You have not demonstrated that he "meets all criteria for a article". You need to read
WP:NMUSIC, and show third party
reliable source coverage about him which demonstrates that he meets one or more of the inclusion criteria listed there. Not wrapped YouTube videos, and not interviews in which he's talking about himself in the first person: third-party coverage in which other people are talking or writing in the third person about his achievement of something that would satisfy an NMUSIC criterion.
Bearcat (
talk) 14:15, 2 March 2023 (UTC)
- Thank you for the reply, is there anything else we can add to the article to resolve this issue. As mentioned above, it seems he meets all criteria for a article.
Samroth33 (
talk) 13:33, 2 March 2023 (UTC)
We apologize
- uh, who's "we"? - "Ghost of Dan Gurney" ( work / talk) 13:54, 3 March 2023 (UTC)
- "Signed to record labels" is not, in and of itself, a Wikipedia inclusion criterion, and neither is "has collaborated with other people who have Wikipedia articles". You also appear, from your tone here, to have a direct
conflict of interest with regard to Caspian, so please be aware that people who have a direct personal stake in his career (such as himself, his own record label, his own management team, and the like) are not who gets to decide whether he gets a Wikipedia article or not — our inclusion criteria are clear, and you have not adequately demonstrated that he meets them.
Bearcat (
talk) 13:18, 2 March 2023 (UTC)
- Delete This is about the only non-PR piece I can find, an interview [1], nothing discussing the individual found in RS. Non-Juno winner, no charted singles. Nothing found for GNG or MUSIC. Oaktree b ( talk) 15:50, 2 March 2023 (UTC)
- •Keep We have provided enough information and cites for the article to remain. All label mates tagged in the article have Wikipedia pages with the same accolades and accomplishments as Caspian. We feel that the rock band with a similar name is interfering in search results on google and other search results and this article is important, not only for the history of the artist, but to differentiate the different musicians in the different Genres.
Samroth33 (
talk) 16:04, 2 March 2023 (UTC)
- Again with the "we"? He isn't owed a Wikipedia article because of a problem you're having on Google — the question of whether he gets a Wikipedia article or not is determined by whether he clears our inclusion standards or not, and has nothing to do with anybody's personal desire to augment their own Google presence.
Bearcat (
talk) 17:40, 2 March 2023 (UTC)
- There is sufficient information proving the article to be of a notable entity, to say a article cannot be made for a artist who hasn't won a Juno or had a charting song is dishonest. He had a number one video on muchmusic in 2009, but there are no articles online to prove that so it is not included in the article, along with a life time of work in the music industry that feels like is being discredited at this point. We will have to let the admins decide. Thanks Samroth33 ( talk) 18:15, 2 March 2023 (UTC)
- Again with the "we"? He isn't owed a Wikipedia article because of a problem you're having on Google — the question of whether he gets a Wikipedia article or not is determined by whether he clears our inclusion standards or not, and has nothing to do with anybody's personal desire to augment their own Google presence.
Bearcat (
talk) 17:40, 2 March 2023 (UTC)
- And we're not here to help with your Google SEO problems. Oaktree b ( talk) 21:43, 2 March 2023 (UTC)
- Those are the notability criteria we look at, having a single that's charted in Canada, a Juno nomination, having a gold record... Look at the Reve article; her songs were played on the radio and we couldn't even make an article about her until Ctrl alt delete hit Gold Record status. Simply recording music doesn't cut it, even having it played on the radio doesn't cut it here for notability.
Oaktree b (
talk) 21:34, 2 March 2023 (UTC)
- There is no such thing as "notable enough for a Wikipedia article on the basis of a claim I cannot prove by
reliably sourcing it properly". Anybody can claim anything, even if it's a lie — so it's not the things you say that get a person into Wikipedia, it's the quality and depth of the media coverage that can be shown to support the things you say, and there's no such thing as "notable for a reason I can't actually prove". Wikipedia is not a free public relations database on which people are automatically entitled to have articles just because they exist — we're an encyclopedia, with specific requirements that a Wikipedia article has to follow to become appropriate for inclusion here.
Bearcat (
talk) 20:07, 2 March 2023 (UTC)
- As mentioned previously, there are multiple reliable sources in the article, thanks
Samroth33 (
talk) 20:20, 2 March 2023 (UTC)
- As mentioned previously, there are zero sources present in the article that are covering him in the context of anything that would satisfy
WP:NMUSIC. We're going to go over these one by one here:
- Vice - Acceptable publication in theory; this particular piece, however, is only a short blurb that doesn't say anything about him that would pass a notability criterion at all.
- HipHopCanada - A Q&A interview in which he's talking about himself in the first person, which is not support for notability.
- Vice - Q&A again, talking about himself rather than having his significance analyzed by other people.
- WorldHipHop - Not coverage about him, just a streaming copy of one of his own songs, and thus not support for notability.
- Just a repetition of the same Q&A interview we already had to dismiss in #2.
- Exclaim - Not about Caspian, just glancingly namechecks his existence a single time in the process of being about somebody else.
- Concert Addicts - Not a reliable or WP:GNG-worthy source at all.
- Ephin Lifestyle Holdings - Not a reliable or WP:GNG-worthy source at all.
- HipHopCanada - Not about Caspian, just glancingly namechecks his existence a single time in the process of being about somebody else.
- Ephin Lifestyle Holdings - Again, not a reliable or WP:GNG-worthy source at all.
- Georgia Straight - Not about Caspian, just glancingly namechecks his existence a single time in the process of being about somebody else.
- So no, the only source that's getting you anywhere at all is #1, which again is a short blurb and therefore not enough all by itself. None of the other sources are cutting it at all in terms of building notability. We are not looking for just any web page you can find that has his name in it; we are looking for coverage about him (not just happening to mention his name while being fundamentally about somebody else) in real media (not PR blogs) which analyzes the significance of his accomplishments (not just verifying the existence of songs) in the third person (not him talking about himself in an interview). Bearcat ( talk) 20:55, 2 March 2023 (UTC)
- As mentioned previously, there are zero sources present in the article that are covering him in the context of anything that would satisfy
WP:NMUSIC. We're going to go over these one by one here:
- As mentioned previously, there are multiple reliable sources in the article, thanks
Samroth33 (
talk) 20:20, 2 March 2023 (UTC)
- I don't think we'd consider a Muchmusic chart from 2009 a reliable source. Was it on the main MuchMusic channel or Much Loud or one of the other iterations that came along of the same channel? Did he attend the VMAs? We need more than just confirmation that he sings and gives interviews. Did the Toronto Star or Vancouver Sun ever do a feature article about him? We need a media story about him (not an interview) in a major Canadian media outlet to even look at notability here. Oaktree b ( talk) 21:31, 2 March 2023 (UTC)
- There is no such thing as "notable enough for a Wikipedia article on the basis of a claim I cannot prove by
reliably sourcing it properly". Anybody can claim anything, even if it's a lie — so it's not the things you say that get a person into Wikipedia, it's the quality and depth of the media coverage that can be shown to support the things you say, and there's no such thing as "notable for a reason I can't actually prove". Wikipedia is not a free public relations database on which people are automatically entitled to have articles just because they exist — we're an encyclopedia, with specific requirements that a Wikipedia article has to follow to become appropriate for inclusion here.
Bearcat (
talk) 20:07, 2 March 2023 (UTC)
- Delete - Fails GNG due to lack of SIGCOV. - "Ghost of Dan Gurney" ( work / talk) 13:55, 3 March 2023 (UTC)
- Delete - UPE/COI article which fails WP:GNG. Onel5969 TT me 23:12, 8 March 2023 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was delete. -- Patar knight - chat/ contributions 16:40, 9 March 2023 (UTC)
Caspian (rapper)
[Hide this box] New to Articles for deletion (AfD)? Read these primers!
- Caspian (rapper) ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log | edits since nomination)
- (Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
WP:BLP, started in draftspace and then immediately moved to mainspace by its own creator without
WP:AFC review, of a musician not
properly sourced as passing
WP:NMUSIC. The notability claim here basically amounts to "musician who exists", with the article documenting nothing about his career that would even be measurable against any of NMUSIC's accomplishment-based criteria -- and there are just four references (one of which has been redundantly reduplicated as two separate cites, for five footnotes but only four actual sources), of which two are Q&A interviews in which he's talking about himself in the first person rather than having his significance analyzed in the third, one is just one of his own songs metaverifying its own existence on YouTube, and one is a short blurb not substantive enough to carry him over
WP:GNG all by itself if it's the most GNG-worthy source on the table.
This is not enough to get him over the "notable because media coverage exists" hump, but nothing stated here is "inherently" notable enough to exempt him from having to have stronger referencing than this either.
Bearcat (
talk) 12:44, 2 March 2023 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Bands and musicians and Canada. Bearcat ( talk) 12:44, 2 March 2023 (UTC)
- We apologize for moving to mainspace without WP:AFC review. The subject has been well covered and signed to multiple record labels (CP Music Group, StealthBomb Records). Every notable collaboration he has worked with have pages on Wikipedia and are tagged in the article. Cites include well known and reputable online sites including vice.com in two different articles. The third cite article mentioned is from one of the biggest online hip hop websites Worldstarhiphop.com. We will add more information in the article but please ask to not delete this page as there are interfering search results between the subject and a rock band with the similar name. Thank you
Samroth33 (
talk) 13:08, 2 March 2023 (UTC)
- "Signed to record labels" is not, in and of itself, a Wikipedia inclusion criterion, and neither is "has collaborated with other people who have Wikipedia articles". You also appear, from your tone here, to have a direct
conflict of interest with regard to Caspian, so please be aware that people who have a direct personal stake in his career (such as himself, his own record label, his own management team, and the like) are not who gets to decide whether he gets a Wikipedia article or not — our inclusion criteria are clear, and you have not adequately demonstrated that he meets them.
Bearcat (
talk) 13:18, 2 March 2023 (UTC)
- Thank you for the reply, is there anything else we can add to the article to resolve this issue. As mentioned above, it seems he meets all criteria for a article.
Samroth33 (
talk) 13:33, 2 March 2023 (UTC)
- You have not demonstrated that he "meets all criteria for a article". You need to read
WP:NMUSIC, and show third party
reliable source coverage about him which demonstrates that he meets one or more of the inclusion criteria listed there. Not wrapped YouTube videos, and not interviews in which he's talking about himself in the first person: third-party coverage in which other people are talking or writing in the third person about his achievement of something that would satisfy an NMUSIC criterion.
Bearcat (
talk) 14:15, 2 March 2023 (UTC)
- Thank you, i have added more cites to the article, there are 10 cites now. We will continue to update it as we search for more articles.
Samroth33 (
talk) 14:31, 2 March 2023 (UTC)
- Nope, you're not getting it. For example, you don't get a musician over the touring criterion by using a concert listings calendar to verify the existence of a tour — you get a musician over the touring criterion by using media coverage about the tour (i.e. concert reviews in the major newspapers) to demonstrate that the tour was deemed significant by professional music journalists. Bearcat ( talk) 15:20, 2 March 2023 (UTC)
- Thank you, i have added more cites to the article, there are 10 cites now. We will continue to update it as we search for more articles.
Samroth33 (
talk) 14:31, 2 March 2023 (UTC)
- You have not demonstrated that he "meets all criteria for a article". You need to read
WP:NMUSIC, and show third party
reliable source coverage about him which demonstrates that he meets one or more of the inclusion criteria listed there. Not wrapped YouTube videos, and not interviews in which he's talking about himself in the first person: third-party coverage in which other people are talking or writing in the third person about his achievement of something that would satisfy an NMUSIC criterion.
Bearcat (
talk) 14:15, 2 March 2023 (UTC)
- Thank you for the reply, is there anything else we can add to the article to resolve this issue. As mentioned above, it seems he meets all criteria for a article.
Samroth33 (
talk) 13:33, 2 March 2023 (UTC)
We apologize
- uh, who's "we"? - "Ghost of Dan Gurney" ( work / talk) 13:54, 3 March 2023 (UTC)
- "Signed to record labels" is not, in and of itself, a Wikipedia inclusion criterion, and neither is "has collaborated with other people who have Wikipedia articles". You also appear, from your tone here, to have a direct
conflict of interest with regard to Caspian, so please be aware that people who have a direct personal stake in his career (such as himself, his own record label, his own management team, and the like) are not who gets to decide whether he gets a Wikipedia article or not — our inclusion criteria are clear, and you have not adequately demonstrated that he meets them.
Bearcat (
talk) 13:18, 2 March 2023 (UTC)
- Delete This is about the only non-PR piece I can find, an interview [1], nothing discussing the individual found in RS. Non-Juno winner, no charted singles. Nothing found for GNG or MUSIC. Oaktree b ( talk) 15:50, 2 March 2023 (UTC)
- •Keep We have provided enough information and cites for the article to remain. All label mates tagged in the article have Wikipedia pages with the same accolades and accomplishments as Caspian. We feel that the rock band with a similar name is interfering in search results on google and other search results and this article is important, not only for the history of the artist, but to differentiate the different musicians in the different Genres.
Samroth33 (
talk) 16:04, 2 March 2023 (UTC)
- Again with the "we"? He isn't owed a Wikipedia article because of a problem you're having on Google — the question of whether he gets a Wikipedia article or not is determined by whether he clears our inclusion standards or not, and has nothing to do with anybody's personal desire to augment their own Google presence.
Bearcat (
talk) 17:40, 2 March 2023 (UTC)
- There is sufficient information proving the article to be of a notable entity, to say a article cannot be made for a artist who hasn't won a Juno or had a charting song is dishonest. He had a number one video on muchmusic in 2009, but there are no articles online to prove that so it is not included in the article, along with a life time of work in the music industry that feels like is being discredited at this point. We will have to let the admins decide. Thanks Samroth33 ( talk) 18:15, 2 March 2023 (UTC)
- Again with the "we"? He isn't owed a Wikipedia article because of a problem you're having on Google — the question of whether he gets a Wikipedia article or not is determined by whether he clears our inclusion standards or not, and has nothing to do with anybody's personal desire to augment their own Google presence.
Bearcat (
talk) 17:40, 2 March 2023 (UTC)
- And we're not here to help with your Google SEO problems. Oaktree b ( talk) 21:43, 2 March 2023 (UTC)
- Those are the notability criteria we look at, having a single that's charted in Canada, a Juno nomination, having a gold record... Look at the Reve article; her songs were played on the radio and we couldn't even make an article about her until Ctrl alt delete hit Gold Record status. Simply recording music doesn't cut it, even having it played on the radio doesn't cut it here for notability.
Oaktree b (
talk) 21:34, 2 March 2023 (UTC)
- There is no such thing as "notable enough for a Wikipedia article on the basis of a claim I cannot prove by
reliably sourcing it properly". Anybody can claim anything, even if it's a lie — so it's not the things you say that get a person into Wikipedia, it's the quality and depth of the media coverage that can be shown to support the things you say, and there's no such thing as "notable for a reason I can't actually prove". Wikipedia is not a free public relations database on which people are automatically entitled to have articles just because they exist — we're an encyclopedia, with specific requirements that a Wikipedia article has to follow to become appropriate for inclusion here.
Bearcat (
talk) 20:07, 2 March 2023 (UTC)
- As mentioned previously, there are multiple reliable sources in the article, thanks
Samroth33 (
talk) 20:20, 2 March 2023 (UTC)
- As mentioned previously, there are zero sources present in the article that are covering him in the context of anything that would satisfy
WP:NMUSIC. We're going to go over these one by one here:
- Vice - Acceptable publication in theory; this particular piece, however, is only a short blurb that doesn't say anything about him that would pass a notability criterion at all.
- HipHopCanada - A Q&A interview in which he's talking about himself in the first person, which is not support for notability.
- Vice - Q&A again, talking about himself rather than having his significance analyzed by other people.
- WorldHipHop - Not coverage about him, just a streaming copy of one of his own songs, and thus not support for notability.
- Just a repetition of the same Q&A interview we already had to dismiss in #2.
- Exclaim - Not about Caspian, just glancingly namechecks his existence a single time in the process of being about somebody else.
- Concert Addicts - Not a reliable or WP:GNG-worthy source at all.
- Ephin Lifestyle Holdings - Not a reliable or WP:GNG-worthy source at all.
- HipHopCanada - Not about Caspian, just glancingly namechecks his existence a single time in the process of being about somebody else.
- Ephin Lifestyle Holdings - Again, not a reliable or WP:GNG-worthy source at all.
- Georgia Straight - Not about Caspian, just glancingly namechecks his existence a single time in the process of being about somebody else.
- So no, the only source that's getting you anywhere at all is #1, which again is a short blurb and therefore not enough all by itself. None of the other sources are cutting it at all in terms of building notability. We are not looking for just any web page you can find that has his name in it; we are looking for coverage about him (not just happening to mention his name while being fundamentally about somebody else) in real media (not PR blogs) which analyzes the significance of his accomplishments (not just verifying the existence of songs) in the third person (not him talking about himself in an interview). Bearcat ( talk) 20:55, 2 March 2023 (UTC)
- As mentioned previously, there are zero sources present in the article that are covering him in the context of anything that would satisfy
WP:NMUSIC. We're going to go over these one by one here:
- As mentioned previously, there are multiple reliable sources in the article, thanks
Samroth33 (
talk) 20:20, 2 March 2023 (UTC)
- I don't think we'd consider a Muchmusic chart from 2009 a reliable source. Was it on the main MuchMusic channel or Much Loud or one of the other iterations that came along of the same channel? Did he attend the VMAs? We need more than just confirmation that he sings and gives interviews. Did the Toronto Star or Vancouver Sun ever do a feature article about him? We need a media story about him (not an interview) in a major Canadian media outlet to even look at notability here. Oaktree b ( talk) 21:31, 2 March 2023 (UTC)
- There is no such thing as "notable enough for a Wikipedia article on the basis of a claim I cannot prove by
reliably sourcing it properly". Anybody can claim anything, even if it's a lie — so it's not the things you say that get a person into Wikipedia, it's the quality and depth of the media coverage that can be shown to support the things you say, and there's no such thing as "notable for a reason I can't actually prove". Wikipedia is not a free public relations database on which people are automatically entitled to have articles just because they exist — we're an encyclopedia, with specific requirements that a Wikipedia article has to follow to become appropriate for inclusion here.
Bearcat (
talk) 20:07, 2 March 2023 (UTC)
- Delete - Fails GNG due to lack of SIGCOV. - "Ghost of Dan Gurney" ( work / talk) 13:55, 3 March 2023 (UTC)
- Delete - UPE/COI article which fails WP:GNG. Onel5969 TT me 23:12, 8 March 2023 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.