- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was delete. Star Mississippi 02:36, 3 July 2024 (UTC)
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- Capture of Peshawar (1758) ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log | edits since nomination)
- (Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
Does this pass GNG?
Its not a battle (even a minor one) and seems to have only the briefest of mentions in sources (one line, at most). Slatersteven ( talk) 13:32, 11 June 2024 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Military-related deletion discussions. Slatersteven ( talk) 13:32, 11 June 2024 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Afghanistan-related deletion discussions. Owen× ☎ 13:35, 11 June 2024 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Events, History, and Pakistan. Spiderone (Talk to Spider) 17:37, 11 June 2024 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: I had previously closed this as a soft delete, but only just realized that this article was formerly considered at AFD in 2022 under the title "Battle of Peshawar (1758)", see: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Battle of Peshawar (1758). Thus, it was ineligible for soft deletion. Relisting for further discussion.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Malinaccier ( talk) 19:44, 18 June 2024 (UTC)
- Comment pinging
User:Mohammad Umar Ali who made the following case that the article does pass the general notability guidelines on my talkpage
here. I assume this user wants to add these comments below.
Malinaccier (
talk)
19:50, 18 June 2024 (UTC)
- Keep The editor who nominated it for deletion argued that it did not pass WP:GNG [1] but it actually does pass it. WP:GNG deals with following points mentioned below I have explained how this article passes every point.
1.) "Presumed" It's not an assumption but a fact as per the sources cited in the article (I have mentioned the sources in 4th point). Moreover it does require its own article as it helps to demonstrate the territorial peak of Maratha Confederacy which was in 1758 just after the capture of Peshawar Fort. Also it helps to understand the regional history of Peshawar which you could see as it has been included in History of Peshawar Wiki article.
2.) "Significant coverage" It does have significant coverage not just in one or two WP:RS but almost every WP:RS which deals with Maratha history or Afghan-Maratha wars, etc. Even various news articles including The Times of India have covered this event see this link; [2]
3.) "Reliable" As told before it's supported by multiple WP:RS sources. And as per the the wiki guidelines availability of secondary sources covering the subject is a good test for notability.
4.) "Sources" All the below sources are considered reliable WP:RS.
i.) Advanced Study in the History of Modern India 1707-1813 - Jaswant Lal Mehta - Google Books link
[3] pg 237 quoting; Thus nature did provide a golden opportunity to the Marathas to establish their sway over whole of Punjab and northwest India, upto Attock and Khyber pass, although the spell of their rule proved very shortlived.
ii.) Pletcher, Kenneth (2010). The History of India link
[4] pg 198 quoting; Thus in 1757 Ahmad Shah's son Timur, appointed governor of Punjab, was forced to retreat from Lahore to Peshawar under the force of attacks from Sikhs and Marathas.
iii.) Pradeep Barua,The state at war in South Asia link
[5]page 55; quoting: The Marathas attacked soon after and, with some help from the Sikhs, managed to capture Attock, Peshawar, and Multan between April and May 1758.
iv.) The Marathas - Cambridge History of India (Vol. 2, Part 4) : New Cambridge History of India link
[6] pg 132 quoting: First, we shall look at the expanding areas controlled by the Marathas, and there were many. Maratha leaders pushed into Rajasthan, the area around Delhi, and on into the Punjab. They attacked Bundelkund and the borders of Uttar Pradesh. Further east, the Marathas attacked Orissa and the borders of Bengal and Bihar.
v.) Moreover, Govind Sardesai, New History of Marathas Vol 2, It has a whole chapter based on this article and conquest of Punjab by Marathas (See the below links)
Above book Pg 400 link
[7] quoting; At Lahore, therefore, Raghunath rao and his advisors found the situation easy and favourable. Abdussamad Khan who was a prisoner in Maratha hands, with characteristic double dealing offered to undertake the defence of frontier agasinst Abdali on behalf of the Marathas. From Poona the Peshwa dispatched Abdur Rahman with all haste to Lahore with instructions to Raghunath to make the best use of him in the scheme he was now executing- Raghunathrao, therefore, consigned the trans-Indus regions of Peshawar to these two Muslim agents, Abdur Rahman and Abdussamad Khan, posting them at Peshawar, with a considerable body of troops.
5.) "Independent of the subject" All the sources stated above are independent as it includes both Indian as well as foreign authors. All these sources are considered reliable (WP:RS). Advertising, press releases, autobiographies, and the subject's website are not included in the sources (4th point).
So, it clearly does pass WP:GNG for which it was nominated for deletion.
Also, I am not so active on Wikipedia nowadays due to certain reasons so I might not frequently reply to any replies (if any) to my comment here, don't take it as my unwillingness to participate in the discussion, kindly wait for my reply.
Mohammad Umar Ali (
talk)
20:00, 18 June 2024 (UTC)
- Some of those do not even seem to discuss its capture (or even it). Please read wp:v and wp:synthesis Slatersteven ( talk) 09:29, 19 June 2024 (UTC)
- *Suggestion I recommend changing this article's name to "Maratha Conquest of Punjab" and in territorial changes it could be mentioned that Attock, Multan, Lahore, Peshawar, etc. ceded to the Maratha Empire/Confederacy. Sources which I mentioned in my 1st comment support it. Then we can expand the article include background, have sub headings like Battle of Sirhind and Battle of Attock, Aftermath (the territories which were gained by Marathas, etc.) That will be more presentable and also address your concerns! Mohammad Umar Ali ( talk) 15:35, 19 June 2024 (UTC)
- Also I see you already had a detailed discussion with other editors when you
nominated this article for deletion for the 1st time. So why nominating the same article for deletion again, you should have resolved your doubts when you first nominated it for deletion.
Mohammad Umar Ali (
talk)
15:58, 19 June 2024 (UTC)
- I did I accepted it was at least a battle, it is not even that now. Slatersteven ( talk) 17:06, 24 June 2024 (UTC)
- Strong delete Mohammad Umar Ali completely fails to understand what significant coverage means, a sentence or two in several books is not significant coverage. I can find no significant coverage of this, presumably for the rather obvious reason that (assuming the article is correct) the Maratha forces simply took control over a city bereft of Afghan forces. So as absolutely nothing happened during the capture, there's nothing for us to write about. I would object in the strongest possible terms to a move to Maratha Conquest of Punjab or anything similar, that would be a clear WP:POVFORK of Afghan–Maratha War where this capture can easily be covered in context. So I wouldn't be opposed to a redirect to that article either. FDW777 ( talk) 16:54, 24 June 2024 (UTC)
- Delete Does not fulfil the WP:NOTABILITY in the slightest. The event is not a significant at all and has no significant coverage in WP:RS. PadFoot2008 18:10, 25 June 2024 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Liz Read! Talk! 23:17, 25 June 2024 (UTC)
- Delete don't know why this was relisted. It's perfectly clear that Mohammad Umar Ali's arguments are specious, containing fundamental misunderstandings of the term " significant coverage". ~~ AirshipJungleman29 ( talk) 23:58, 2 July 2024 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was delete. Star Mississippi 02:36, 3 July 2024 (UTC)
[Hide this box] New to Articles for deletion (AfD)? Read these primers!
- Capture of Peshawar (1758) ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log | edits since nomination)
- (Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
Does this pass GNG?
Its not a battle (even a minor one) and seems to have only the briefest of mentions in sources (one line, at most). Slatersteven ( talk) 13:32, 11 June 2024 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Military-related deletion discussions. Slatersteven ( talk) 13:32, 11 June 2024 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Afghanistan-related deletion discussions. Owen× ☎ 13:35, 11 June 2024 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Events, History, and Pakistan. Spiderone (Talk to Spider) 17:37, 11 June 2024 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: I had previously closed this as a soft delete, but only just realized that this article was formerly considered at AFD in 2022 under the title "Battle of Peshawar (1758)", see: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Battle of Peshawar (1758). Thus, it was ineligible for soft deletion. Relisting for further discussion.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Malinaccier ( talk) 19:44, 18 June 2024 (UTC)
- Comment pinging
User:Mohammad Umar Ali who made the following case that the article does pass the general notability guidelines on my talkpage
here. I assume this user wants to add these comments below.
Malinaccier (
talk)
19:50, 18 June 2024 (UTC)
- Keep The editor who nominated it for deletion argued that it did not pass WP:GNG [1] but it actually does pass it. WP:GNG deals with following points mentioned below I have explained how this article passes every point.
1.) "Presumed" It's not an assumption but a fact as per the sources cited in the article (I have mentioned the sources in 4th point). Moreover it does require its own article as it helps to demonstrate the territorial peak of Maratha Confederacy which was in 1758 just after the capture of Peshawar Fort. Also it helps to understand the regional history of Peshawar which you could see as it has been included in History of Peshawar Wiki article.
2.) "Significant coverage" It does have significant coverage not just in one or two WP:RS but almost every WP:RS which deals with Maratha history or Afghan-Maratha wars, etc. Even various news articles including The Times of India have covered this event see this link; [2]
3.) "Reliable" As told before it's supported by multiple WP:RS sources. And as per the the wiki guidelines availability of secondary sources covering the subject is a good test for notability.
4.) "Sources" All the below sources are considered reliable WP:RS.
i.) Advanced Study in the History of Modern India 1707-1813 - Jaswant Lal Mehta - Google Books link
[3] pg 237 quoting; Thus nature did provide a golden opportunity to the Marathas to establish their sway over whole of Punjab and northwest India, upto Attock and Khyber pass, although the spell of their rule proved very shortlived.
ii.) Pletcher, Kenneth (2010). The History of India link
[4] pg 198 quoting; Thus in 1757 Ahmad Shah's son Timur, appointed governor of Punjab, was forced to retreat from Lahore to Peshawar under the force of attacks from Sikhs and Marathas.
iii.) Pradeep Barua,The state at war in South Asia link
[5]page 55; quoting: The Marathas attacked soon after and, with some help from the Sikhs, managed to capture Attock, Peshawar, and Multan between April and May 1758.
iv.) The Marathas - Cambridge History of India (Vol. 2, Part 4) : New Cambridge History of India link
[6] pg 132 quoting: First, we shall look at the expanding areas controlled by the Marathas, and there were many. Maratha leaders pushed into Rajasthan, the area around Delhi, and on into the Punjab. They attacked Bundelkund and the borders of Uttar Pradesh. Further east, the Marathas attacked Orissa and the borders of Bengal and Bihar.
v.) Moreover, Govind Sardesai, New History of Marathas Vol 2, It has a whole chapter based on this article and conquest of Punjab by Marathas (See the below links)
Above book Pg 400 link
[7] quoting; At Lahore, therefore, Raghunath rao and his advisors found the situation easy and favourable. Abdussamad Khan who was a prisoner in Maratha hands, with characteristic double dealing offered to undertake the defence of frontier agasinst Abdali on behalf of the Marathas. From Poona the Peshwa dispatched Abdur Rahman with all haste to Lahore with instructions to Raghunath to make the best use of him in the scheme he was now executing- Raghunathrao, therefore, consigned the trans-Indus regions of Peshawar to these two Muslim agents, Abdur Rahman and Abdussamad Khan, posting them at Peshawar, with a considerable body of troops.
5.) "Independent of the subject" All the sources stated above are independent as it includes both Indian as well as foreign authors. All these sources are considered reliable (WP:RS). Advertising, press releases, autobiographies, and the subject's website are not included in the sources (4th point).
So, it clearly does pass WP:GNG for which it was nominated for deletion.
Also, I am not so active on Wikipedia nowadays due to certain reasons so I might not frequently reply to any replies (if any) to my comment here, don't take it as my unwillingness to participate in the discussion, kindly wait for my reply.
Mohammad Umar Ali (
talk)
20:00, 18 June 2024 (UTC)
- Some of those do not even seem to discuss its capture (or even it). Please read wp:v and wp:synthesis Slatersteven ( talk) 09:29, 19 June 2024 (UTC)
- *Suggestion I recommend changing this article's name to "Maratha Conquest of Punjab" and in territorial changes it could be mentioned that Attock, Multan, Lahore, Peshawar, etc. ceded to the Maratha Empire/Confederacy. Sources which I mentioned in my 1st comment support it. Then we can expand the article include background, have sub headings like Battle of Sirhind and Battle of Attock, Aftermath (the territories which were gained by Marathas, etc.) That will be more presentable and also address your concerns! Mohammad Umar Ali ( talk) 15:35, 19 June 2024 (UTC)
- Also I see you already had a detailed discussion with other editors when you
nominated this article for deletion for the 1st time. So why nominating the same article for deletion again, you should have resolved your doubts when you first nominated it for deletion.
Mohammad Umar Ali (
talk)
15:58, 19 June 2024 (UTC)
- I did I accepted it was at least a battle, it is not even that now. Slatersteven ( talk) 17:06, 24 June 2024 (UTC)
- Strong delete Mohammad Umar Ali completely fails to understand what significant coverage means, a sentence or two in several books is not significant coverage. I can find no significant coverage of this, presumably for the rather obvious reason that (assuming the article is correct) the Maratha forces simply took control over a city bereft of Afghan forces. So as absolutely nothing happened during the capture, there's nothing for us to write about. I would object in the strongest possible terms to a move to Maratha Conquest of Punjab or anything similar, that would be a clear WP:POVFORK of Afghan–Maratha War where this capture can easily be covered in context. So I wouldn't be opposed to a redirect to that article either. FDW777 ( talk) 16:54, 24 June 2024 (UTC)
- Delete Does not fulfil the WP:NOTABILITY in the slightest. The event is not a significant at all and has no significant coverage in WP:RS. PadFoot2008 18:10, 25 June 2024 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Liz Read! Talk! 23:17, 25 June 2024 (UTC)
- Delete don't know why this was relisted. It's perfectly clear that Mohammad Umar Ali's arguments are specious, containing fundamental misunderstandings of the term " significant coverage". ~~ AirshipJungleman29 ( talk) 23:58, 2 July 2024 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.