- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was no consensus. Vanamonde ( Talk) 11:20, 16 September 2022 (UTC)
Calin Ile
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- Calin Ile ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log | edits since nomination)
- (Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
No particular evidence of notability, essentially a man who’s had a career. The French award he received has been held by hundreds of thousands of people, while being named hotelier of the year is of marginal relevance absent other distinguishing factors.
The coverage leaves much to be desired: it’s mostly the subject pontificating about himself or his industry; unsurprising, as he’s also in public relations. This, from a dubious source no less, calls him “super trained, experienced, dedicated and devoted”, which tells you all you need to know about its objectivity. - Biruitorul Talk 04:55, 17 August 2022 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Businesspeople and Romania. Shellwood ( talk) 08:33, 17 August 2022 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Liz Read! Talk! 06:08, 24 August 2022 (UTC)Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Liz Read! Talk! 05:01, 31 August 2022 (UTC)
- It's very difficult to judge as the sources are all non-English-language. I've asked WP:WikiProject Romania for help. GoldenRing ( talk) 15:55, 31 August 2022 (UTC)
- Comment sounds puffy as an article, but I can't understand or judge the quality of the sources to be much help. Oaktree b ( talk) 23:48, 31 August 2022 (UTC)
- Keep - passes WP:NBASIC and WP:ANYBIO:
- The subject has significant coverage in multiple reliable sources like Ziarul Financiar, Forbes Romania, Romania Insider, economedia, Business Review and others. I didn't cite WOWbiz because it's an interview but it does show the subject is well known to the Romanian media.
- The award Order of Agricultural Merit he received is notable anyway, regardless of how many people have gained it since 1883. Also being "hotelier of the year" is a distinguished achievement, just like being "actor of the year" would be in an actor's career.
- The source mentioned in the nomination is mainly used for some basic info like DOB, place of birth and education etc, his notability doesn't rely on it. Picking up just one source out of 16 doesn't help the cause. Insight 3 ( talk) 04:55, 1 September 2022 (UTC)
- First, let’s point out that this vote comes from the article creator, an individual who has previously fought to keep articles he’s created, only to see them deleted.
- Next: yes, the Order of Agricultural Merit is a notable award, but not all its hundreds of thousands of recipients are automatically notable. I hope we can make that distinction. And no, being named “hotelier of the year” is not necessarily a sign of notability, unless accompanied by coverage outside the industry echo chamber.
- Finally, the sources mentioned really do nothing to bolster a notability claim. Ziarul Financiar simply quotes the subject, that’s it. The others deal with professional moves he is making: leaving a management job, being appointed manager of a new hotel (2) and entering a business partnership with some guy. All of this is routine coverage of a random person’s career, of the type that fills similar publications every day of the week. It’s essentially PR about someone who happens to be an expert at PR. None of it is remotely encyclopedic in character, as defined by
WP:BASIC: “significant coverage in multiple published secondary sources that are reliable, intellectually independent of each other, and independent of the subject”. —
Biruitorul
Talk
07:41, 4 September 2022 (UTC)
- I waited for two weeks for others to participate here, when no one came, I used my right to defend the article that I created and which I believe deserves to stay. We create articles and sometimes they get deleted too, what's the point here? BTW, I didn't create the second one you mentioned!
- It is self-contradictory to say a notable award is given to an individual without any merit that can make them distinguished from other ordinary non-notable people. The "hotelier of the year" honor is reported by two independent magazines ( [1] & [2]) which are quite outside the "industry echo chamber".
- This is exactly how media covers active careers of living people, if they are not notable who cares what job they are leaving and with whom they are making partnerships. The real things to judge are 1) the coverage is significant (i.e. the sources are mainly about the subject, not just passing mentions), 2) the sources are independent of the subject (even you don't deny that), 3) they are multiple (more than one, simple math), and are reliable (aren't they?) Insight 3 ( talk) 15:03, 4 September 2022 (UTC)
- Let’s try this again. Here is the list of the agriculture award recipients — for just this year. 62 pages long, hundreds of individuals. Approximately zero of them are notable by our standards. If any of them are notable, it’s not solely on the basis of the award.
- Regarding your hotelier award sources: the first includes phrases such as “Ile really is a person with whom you can chat for hours on end”, “Ile truly is the professional missing from management teams”, “in a single word, he defines himself as a FRIEND”. Objective journalism, indeed. The second source calls itself “the magazine of the Romanian hospitality industry”, so is quite literally the mouthpiece of the industry echo chamber.
- It took me about five minutes to discover another Romanian CEO, along with five reasonably independent sources about her:
[3],
[4],
[5],
[6],
[7]. Does this imply Mihaela Bîtu deserves an article here? Not really: it’s the type of routine coverage the business press awards to any CEO. Same with this Ile fellow. —
Biruitorul
Talk
05:40, 5 September 2022 (UTC)
- It's really hard to look for everyone's notability in the list. To write a Wiki biography, we need more info than just being in a list of recipients (and this is not the case for Calin Ile). But I am sure, if a wiki page is set for any of them, the award will be mentioned as a sign of notability on it.
- For 'Hotelier of the Year', sources exist outside the hospitality industry as well:
- Bihon
- B365
- Its just a matter of finding more sources with deep online search.
- The person you mentioned may or may not be notable, but if I say yes she is, you will bring another name and so on. Like "other stuff exists", "other people exist" is also not very helpful argument. Moreover, Calin Ile is not just a GM appointed here and there, as per sources, he is the president of the Romanian Hospitality Industry Federation (FIHR) and the the spokesperson for the Alliance for Tourism (APT). So, no comparison with your example. Insight 3 ( talk) 14:13, 5 September 2022 (UTC)
- Comment Ran a couple of references through a translator and they are mainly Calin's comments the hospitality/tourism sector and his company's strategy for getting through the pandemic. Not seeing anything that deals specifically with the subject in any depth. The two awards might get him across the line but it's hard to say.-
KH-1 (
talk)
01:31, 7 September 2022 (UTC)
- Surely, you haven't gone through all the references, the references cited in the lead section are just additional. The subject has pretty significant coverage here: [8], [9], [10]. He is also covered in the Forbes Romania.
- Importantly, one should not expect a hotelier to have the kind of media coverage that actors, sports people, or politicians usually get. Insight 3 ( talk) 04:34, 7 September 2022 (UTC)
- Keep:
- Some excerpts from three articles cited by Insight, which sound like significant coverage directly about his life to me:
- Bihon.ro: "Călin Ile is general manager at Hote Ibis and teacher at ASE. Călin Ile attended specialization courses in the field of tourism in Denmark, Holland and France, executive manager with excellent results at Hotel Continental in Bucharest at only 27 years old, where he learns and perfects his managerial activity and acquires the experience and competence to be entrusted with the opening the first Ibis Hotel in Romania, in Bucharest."
- Coltisor: "In a few words, Călin Ile's CV includes several milestones: born in Bucharest 40 or so years ago, graduated in 1995 from the Faculty of Tourism within ASE Bucharest, later with specialization courses in the field of tourism in Denmark, Holland and France..."
- Infotravel Romania: "An ASE graduate, Călin Ile has been part of the Ibis team since the hotel chain arrived in Romania in 2001. He contributed to the opening of the first Ibis hotel in Bucharest, and then to the development of the network to 4 hotels today. He also holds the position of vice-president of the Romanian Hotel Industry Federation since May 2011."
- — Ceso femmuin mbolgaig mbung, mello hi! ( 投稿) 06:38, 7 September 2022 (UTC)
- Some excerpts from three articles cited by Insight, which sound like significant coverage directly about his life to me:
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: Final relist
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Liz Read! Talk! 06:40, 7 September 2022 (UTC)
- Comment Another excerpt from another mentioned source.
- Insociety.ro interview article's non-interview intro: "Călin does not regret for a moment the choice to be a hotelier, an idea that was imprinted in his mind when he was 18 years old, after, together with a classmate, organize coming-of-age parties or even New Year's Eve parties. However, it was not his only option, since, as he himself confesses, he also flirted with the idea of becoming a banker – being an analytical person, with some inclination towards numbers and statistics, or a teacher, as a continuation of his mother's work sale, math teacher all her life. Personally, the biggest challenge was when he left his hometown, Marghita (Bihor county), and came alone to Bucharest, scared, perhaps, of everything that was going to happen to him. He was only 18 years old, but he managed. Professional, the opportunity to be the director of the Continental Hotel in Bucharest, an emblematic hotel on Calea Victoriei, at only 25 years old, was, without a doubt, the biggest challenge."
- This is clearly biographical information directly about Calin himself. — Ceso femmuin mbolgaig mbung,
mello
hi! (
投稿)
06:58, 7 September 2022 (UTC)
- It’s also blatantly promotional, which sort of blunts its value as a quotable source. — Biruitorul Talk 17:13, 7 September 2022 (UTC)
- Week keep. While I agree the article is blatently promotional and reads like a puffed professional resume, the Médaille d'honneur agricole is a state award in France and recipients of state awards would generally pass the WP:GNG threshold. Keep but rewrite to tone down the overly promotional tone. The article creator should note that there is no ownership of articles. Any editor can edit at any time, including a re-write for a neutral POV and the addition of any criticism that may be published in reliable sources. Blue Riband► 14:35, 15 September 2022 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was no consensus. Vanamonde ( Talk) 11:20, 16 September 2022 (UTC)
Calin Ile
[Hide this box] New to Articles for deletion (AfD)? Read these primers!
- Calin Ile ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log | edits since nomination)
- (Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
No particular evidence of notability, essentially a man who’s had a career. The French award he received has been held by hundreds of thousands of people, while being named hotelier of the year is of marginal relevance absent other distinguishing factors.
The coverage leaves much to be desired: it’s mostly the subject pontificating about himself or his industry; unsurprising, as he’s also in public relations. This, from a dubious source no less, calls him “super trained, experienced, dedicated and devoted”, which tells you all you need to know about its objectivity. - Biruitorul Talk 04:55, 17 August 2022 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Businesspeople and Romania. Shellwood ( talk) 08:33, 17 August 2022 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Liz Read! Talk! 06:08, 24 August 2022 (UTC)Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Liz Read! Talk! 05:01, 31 August 2022 (UTC)
- It's very difficult to judge as the sources are all non-English-language. I've asked WP:WikiProject Romania for help. GoldenRing ( talk) 15:55, 31 August 2022 (UTC)
- Comment sounds puffy as an article, but I can't understand or judge the quality of the sources to be much help. Oaktree b ( talk) 23:48, 31 August 2022 (UTC)
- Keep - passes WP:NBASIC and WP:ANYBIO:
- The subject has significant coverage in multiple reliable sources like Ziarul Financiar, Forbes Romania, Romania Insider, economedia, Business Review and others. I didn't cite WOWbiz because it's an interview but it does show the subject is well known to the Romanian media.
- The award Order of Agricultural Merit he received is notable anyway, regardless of how many people have gained it since 1883. Also being "hotelier of the year" is a distinguished achievement, just like being "actor of the year" would be in an actor's career.
- The source mentioned in the nomination is mainly used for some basic info like DOB, place of birth and education etc, his notability doesn't rely on it. Picking up just one source out of 16 doesn't help the cause. Insight 3 ( talk) 04:55, 1 September 2022 (UTC)
- First, let’s point out that this vote comes from the article creator, an individual who has previously fought to keep articles he’s created, only to see them deleted.
- Next: yes, the Order of Agricultural Merit is a notable award, but not all its hundreds of thousands of recipients are automatically notable. I hope we can make that distinction. And no, being named “hotelier of the year” is not necessarily a sign of notability, unless accompanied by coverage outside the industry echo chamber.
- Finally, the sources mentioned really do nothing to bolster a notability claim. Ziarul Financiar simply quotes the subject, that’s it. The others deal with professional moves he is making: leaving a management job, being appointed manager of a new hotel (2) and entering a business partnership with some guy. All of this is routine coverage of a random person’s career, of the type that fills similar publications every day of the week. It’s essentially PR about someone who happens to be an expert at PR. None of it is remotely encyclopedic in character, as defined by
WP:BASIC: “significant coverage in multiple published secondary sources that are reliable, intellectually independent of each other, and independent of the subject”. —
Biruitorul
Talk
07:41, 4 September 2022 (UTC)
- I waited for two weeks for others to participate here, when no one came, I used my right to defend the article that I created and which I believe deserves to stay. We create articles and sometimes they get deleted too, what's the point here? BTW, I didn't create the second one you mentioned!
- It is self-contradictory to say a notable award is given to an individual without any merit that can make them distinguished from other ordinary non-notable people. The "hotelier of the year" honor is reported by two independent magazines ( [1] & [2]) which are quite outside the "industry echo chamber".
- This is exactly how media covers active careers of living people, if they are not notable who cares what job they are leaving and with whom they are making partnerships. The real things to judge are 1) the coverage is significant (i.e. the sources are mainly about the subject, not just passing mentions), 2) the sources are independent of the subject (even you don't deny that), 3) they are multiple (more than one, simple math), and are reliable (aren't they?) Insight 3 ( talk) 15:03, 4 September 2022 (UTC)
- Let’s try this again. Here is the list of the agriculture award recipients — for just this year. 62 pages long, hundreds of individuals. Approximately zero of them are notable by our standards. If any of them are notable, it’s not solely on the basis of the award.
- Regarding your hotelier award sources: the first includes phrases such as “Ile really is a person with whom you can chat for hours on end”, “Ile truly is the professional missing from management teams”, “in a single word, he defines himself as a FRIEND”. Objective journalism, indeed. The second source calls itself “the magazine of the Romanian hospitality industry”, so is quite literally the mouthpiece of the industry echo chamber.
- It took me about five minutes to discover another Romanian CEO, along with five reasonably independent sources about her:
[3],
[4],
[5],
[6],
[7]. Does this imply Mihaela Bîtu deserves an article here? Not really: it’s the type of routine coverage the business press awards to any CEO. Same with this Ile fellow. —
Biruitorul
Talk
05:40, 5 September 2022 (UTC)
- It's really hard to look for everyone's notability in the list. To write a Wiki biography, we need more info than just being in a list of recipients (and this is not the case for Calin Ile). But I am sure, if a wiki page is set for any of them, the award will be mentioned as a sign of notability on it.
- For 'Hotelier of the Year', sources exist outside the hospitality industry as well:
- Bihon
- B365
- Its just a matter of finding more sources with deep online search.
- The person you mentioned may or may not be notable, but if I say yes she is, you will bring another name and so on. Like "other stuff exists", "other people exist" is also not very helpful argument. Moreover, Calin Ile is not just a GM appointed here and there, as per sources, he is the president of the Romanian Hospitality Industry Federation (FIHR) and the the spokesperson for the Alliance for Tourism (APT). So, no comparison with your example. Insight 3 ( talk) 14:13, 5 September 2022 (UTC)
- Comment Ran a couple of references through a translator and they are mainly Calin's comments the hospitality/tourism sector and his company's strategy for getting through the pandemic. Not seeing anything that deals specifically with the subject in any depth. The two awards might get him across the line but it's hard to say.-
KH-1 (
talk)
01:31, 7 September 2022 (UTC)
- Surely, you haven't gone through all the references, the references cited in the lead section are just additional. The subject has pretty significant coverage here: [8], [9], [10]. He is also covered in the Forbes Romania.
- Importantly, one should not expect a hotelier to have the kind of media coverage that actors, sports people, or politicians usually get. Insight 3 ( talk) 04:34, 7 September 2022 (UTC)
- Keep:
- Some excerpts from three articles cited by Insight, which sound like significant coverage directly about his life to me:
- Bihon.ro: "Călin Ile is general manager at Hote Ibis and teacher at ASE. Călin Ile attended specialization courses in the field of tourism in Denmark, Holland and France, executive manager with excellent results at Hotel Continental in Bucharest at only 27 years old, where he learns and perfects his managerial activity and acquires the experience and competence to be entrusted with the opening the first Ibis Hotel in Romania, in Bucharest."
- Coltisor: "In a few words, Călin Ile's CV includes several milestones: born in Bucharest 40 or so years ago, graduated in 1995 from the Faculty of Tourism within ASE Bucharest, later with specialization courses in the field of tourism in Denmark, Holland and France..."
- Infotravel Romania: "An ASE graduate, Călin Ile has been part of the Ibis team since the hotel chain arrived in Romania in 2001. He contributed to the opening of the first Ibis hotel in Bucharest, and then to the development of the network to 4 hotels today. He also holds the position of vice-president of the Romanian Hotel Industry Federation since May 2011."
- — Ceso femmuin mbolgaig mbung, mello hi! ( 投稿) 06:38, 7 September 2022 (UTC)
- Some excerpts from three articles cited by Insight, which sound like significant coverage directly about his life to me:
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: Final relist
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Liz Read! Talk! 06:40, 7 September 2022 (UTC)
- Comment Another excerpt from another mentioned source.
- Insociety.ro interview article's non-interview intro: "Călin does not regret for a moment the choice to be a hotelier, an idea that was imprinted in his mind when he was 18 years old, after, together with a classmate, organize coming-of-age parties or even New Year's Eve parties. However, it was not his only option, since, as he himself confesses, he also flirted with the idea of becoming a banker – being an analytical person, with some inclination towards numbers and statistics, or a teacher, as a continuation of his mother's work sale, math teacher all her life. Personally, the biggest challenge was when he left his hometown, Marghita (Bihor county), and came alone to Bucharest, scared, perhaps, of everything that was going to happen to him. He was only 18 years old, but he managed. Professional, the opportunity to be the director of the Continental Hotel in Bucharest, an emblematic hotel on Calea Victoriei, at only 25 years old, was, without a doubt, the biggest challenge."
- This is clearly biographical information directly about Calin himself. — Ceso femmuin mbolgaig mbung,
mello
hi! (
投稿)
06:58, 7 September 2022 (UTC)
- It’s also blatantly promotional, which sort of blunts its value as a quotable source. — Biruitorul Talk 17:13, 7 September 2022 (UTC)
- Week keep. While I agree the article is blatently promotional and reads like a puffed professional resume, the Médaille d'honneur agricole is a state award in France and recipients of state awards would generally pass the WP:GNG threshold. Keep but rewrite to tone down the overly promotional tone. The article creator should note that there is no ownership of articles. Any editor can edit at any time, including a re-write for a neutral POV and the addition of any criticism that may be published in reliable sources. Blue Riband► 14:35, 15 September 2022 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.