- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was keep. Eddie891 Talk Work 13:17, 27 January 2021 (UTC)
Angel Mendez
[Hide this box] New to Articles for deletion (AfD)? Read these primers!
- Angel Mendez ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log)
- (Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
Fails WP:SOLDIER. A sergeant who received a single Navy Cross. Lettler hello • contribs 22:18, 11 January 2021 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of People-related deletion discussions. Lettler hello • contribs 22:18, 11 January 2021 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Military-related deletion discussions. Lettler hello • contribs 22:18, 11 January 2021 (UTC)
- Note This discussion has been included in the list of Puerto Rico-related deletion discussions. Lettler hello • contribs 22:18, 11 January 2021 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of United States of America-related deletion discussions. Lettler hello • contribs 22:18, 11 January 2021 (UTC)
- Delete fails WP:SOLDIER and WP:GNG, if his Navy Cross does get upgraded to MoH page can be recreated. Mztourist ( talk) 02:57, 12 January 2021 (UTC)
- Keep - Give me a break, Mendez saved the life of his platoon commander, Lieutenant Ronald D. Castille, who in the future became the Chief Justice of Pennsylvania. U.S. Senator Charles Schumer has recommended that Mendez' award be upgraded to the Medal of Honor, the United States highest military decoration. The St. George Post Office in Staten Island was renamed and is now known as the "Sergeant Angel Mendez Post Office." and you're telling me he is not notable? Tony the Marine ( talk) 02:37, 12 January 2021 (UTC)
- Yes, he's not notable. Read
WP:NOTINHERITED, saving someone notable doesn't confer notability. The upgrade request was filed in 2003, so it seems very unlikely that it will happen. Having a Post Office named after you doesn't establish notability, we have soldiers who had U.S. Navy ships named after them fail notability and be deleted.
Mztourist (
talk)
16:25, 12 January 2021 (UTC)
- The namesakes of USN ships who have been redirected are entirely different as those soldiers lacked significant coverage and often their existence could only be sourced to one source, which is not the case here.
Kges1901 (
talk)
22:12, 12 January 2021 (UTC)
- That's not true, some had more than one source, but never amounted to SIGCOV in multiple RS, just like Mendez. Mztourist ( talk) 05:26, 13 January 2021 (UTC)
- Please contact me if you have some direction to follow or the filing of Angels upgrade submission. If you have some type of official document regarding angel's up grade it would serve as great help to us all. Again, I can't express how important a formal document at this point would help. Please contact me on face book. My name is Michael Sulsona. You can also get in touch with me through the Stephen Siller Foundation. I am a Vietnam vet myself, Marine and lost both legs in comat and currently working as a service officer. Thanks! 100.33.151.9 ( talk) 00:55, 12 April 2022 (UTC)
- The namesakes of USN ships who have been redirected are entirely different as those soldiers lacked significant coverage and often their existence could only be sourced to one source, which is not the case here.
Kges1901 (
talk)
22:12, 12 January 2021 (UTC)
- Yes, he's not notable. Read
WP:NOTINHERITED, saving someone notable doesn't confer notability. The upgrade request was filed in 2003, so it seems very unlikely that it will happen. Having a Post Office named after you doesn't establish notability, we have soldiers who had U.S. Navy ships named after them fail notability and be deleted.
Mztourist (
talk)
16:25, 12 January 2021 (UTC)
- Delete saving someone notable does not make someone notable. A reccomendation for an upgrade is not an upgrade, he does not meet inclusion criteria. John Pack Lambert ( talk) 20:16, 12 January 2021 (UTC)
- Keep Meeting WP:GNG is coverage, not achievement based, and Mendez passes the coverage bar with significant coverage in multiple independent RS newspapers. He is the subject of a front-page story in the Philadelphia Inquirer, a large-circulation major city newspaper, and numerous news articles such as [1] [2] [3] [4] [5]. Kges1901 ( talk) 22:06, 12 January 2021 (UTC)
- First source incorrectly states he was awarded the Medal of Honor; 2nd, 3rd, 4th and 5th sources are all Staten Island News, i.e. his local newspaper where he is obviously a local hero. The story in the Philadelphia Inquirer is just a short piece about the (unsuccessful) attempt to upgrade his Navy Cross, so no that's not SIGCOV in multiple RS.
Mztourist (
talk)
03:26, 13 January 2021 (UTC)
- The correctness of the first source is irrelevant as the quoted family member may have been misinformed, but either way it still demonstrates coverage. The Staten Island news coverage cannot simply be discounted as it shows that Mendez receives coverage over a long period of time despite the failure of the MoH upgrade effort. It is ridiculous to claim that a front page news story is 'short' as it is one of the longest stories by word count in the newspaper that day, and the story is about him as it contains biographical information, not simply the effort to upgrade his Navy Cross. Again, the success or failure of an upgrade attempt is irrelevant as there is still significant coverage of Mendez either way. All three newspapers are each RS and these articles are focused on Mendez himself so they are by definition multiple RS.
Kges1901 (
talk)
15:47, 13 January 2021 (UTC)
- First source must be ignored due to fundamental error, so there are two sources, three stories in his local paper and one in the Philadelphia Inquirer, not SIGCOV in multiple RS. Mztourist ( talk) 03:46, 18 January 2021 (UTC)
- The correctness of the first source is irrelevant as the quoted family member may have been misinformed, but either way it still demonstrates coverage. The Staten Island news coverage cannot simply be discounted as it shows that Mendez receives coverage over a long period of time despite the failure of the MoH upgrade effort. It is ridiculous to claim that a front page news story is 'short' as it is one of the longest stories by word count in the newspaper that day, and the story is about him as it contains biographical information, not simply the effort to upgrade his Navy Cross. Again, the success or failure of an upgrade attempt is irrelevant as there is still significant coverage of Mendez either way. All three newspapers are each RS and these articles are focused on Mendez himself so they are by definition multiple RS.
Kges1901 (
talk)
15:47, 13 January 2021 (UTC)
- First source incorrectly states he was awarded the Medal of Honor; 2nd, 3rd, 4th and 5th sources are all Staten Island News, i.e. his local newspaper where he is obviously a local hero. The story in the Philadelphia Inquirer is just a short piece about the (unsuccessful) attempt to upgrade his Navy Cross, so no that's not SIGCOV in multiple RS.
Mztourist (
talk)
03:26, 13 January 2021 (UTC)
- Keep - He was awarded the Medal of Honor and his family accepted his Medal of Honor on Memorial Day 2008 in San Juan Puerto Rico. The source is here Newspress Fort Myers, May 15, 2008. -- The Eloquent Peasant ( talk) 02:40, 13 January 2021 (UTC)
- He did not receive the Medal of Honor. Look at www.cmohs.org, he's not listed there. Your source is wrong.
Mztourist (
talk)
03:17, 13 January 2021 (UTC)
- Sorry, the way I read the article, the way it's written it sounded / read like it was a done deal. My vote is still keep because he's received significant coverage. --
The Eloquent Peasant (
talk)
03:45, 13 January 2021 (UTC)
- Yes, the article was completely wrong. What SIGCOV in what RS?
Mztourist (
talk)
05:24, 13 January 2021 (UTC)
- The article was not completely wrong. I added and removed incorrect information because of how the resource stated the information. The 50th anniversary of his death was honored by the community in a ceremony. A school was renamed in his honor. Those two sources have been added for you to now come along and disparage. The Eloquent Peasant ( talk) 18:52, 23 January 2021 (UTC)
- Yes, the article was completely wrong. What SIGCOV in what RS?
Mztourist (
talk)
05:24, 13 January 2021 (UTC)
- Sorry, the way I read the article, the way it's written it sounded / read like it was a done deal. My vote is still keep because he's received significant coverage. --
The Eloquent Peasant (
talk)
03:45, 13 January 2021 (UTC)
- He did not receive the Medal of Honor. Look at www.cmohs.org, he's not listed there. Your source is wrong.
Mztourist (
talk)
03:17, 13 January 2021 (UTC)
- Keep seems notable based on wp:soldier. Peter303x ( talk) 21:27, 15 January 2021 (UTC)
- Keep If an individual has a US federal building named after him, he is notable, end of the Notability argument. This was the case with this soldier.
[1] ("On January 03, 2012, President Barack Obama signed into law the designation of this post office in Honor of Sergeant Mendez.") Naming of federal buildings, certainly Post Offices, is done with approval and recommendation of US Congress. Lack of notability is not a valid delete argument here.
Mercy11 (
talk)
00:27, 16 January 2021 (UTC)
- A post office? I'd understand your argument with something like a proper federal office building, but a post office? Lettler hello • contribs 02:33, 18 January 2021 (UTC)
- Come back the day you have a PO named after you and we can discuss that further. Thank you.
Mercy11 (
talk)
01:06, 20 January 2021 (UTC)
- A US Post Office named after him gives him notability. United States Post Offices are established by the United States Congress as written in the United States Constitution. [2] So a United States Post Office is not just some insignificant building, like say a corner store might be.-- The Eloquent Peasant ( talk) 18:52, 23 January 2021 (UTC)
- Come back the day you have a PO named after you and we can discuss that further. Thank you.
Mercy11 (
talk)
01:06, 20 January 2021 (UTC)
- OPPOSE/Keep - appears to meet the wiki standard for general notoriety — Preceding unsigned comment added by Klgeels ( talk • contribs) 02:34, 20 January 2021 (UTC)
References
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Daniel ( talk) 04:30, 20 January 2021 (UTC)
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Daniel ( talk) 04:30, 20 January 2021 (UTC)
- Keep, per above; how many buildings have to be named after you before you become "notable"? WP:SOLDIER is an essay, and not a guideline. jp× g 17:21, 21 January 2021 (UTC)
- It's about having SIGCOV in multiple RS, not one Post Office named after him. Mztourist ( talk) 09:53, 22 January 2021 (UTC)
- Keep, for the reasons of those who want this article kept. Davidgoodheart ( talk) 15:44, 22 January 2021 (UTC)
- Keep per discussion. Article definitely meets WP:GNG. Enough on the article to pass WP:SOLDIER too. CAVETOWNFAN ( talk) 14:15, 23 January 2021 (UTC)
- Amazing, User:CAVETOWNFAN has been on WP for 1 day and comes to this discussion... Mztourist ( talk) 03:56, 25 January 2021 (UTC)
- Keep per
WP:ANYBIO: Navy Cross, US post office, and a high school combined meet
well-known and significant award or honor
, and there are sufficient RSs to document a verifiable biography, with significant coverage by Philadelphia Inquirer, Fort Myers News-Press, SILive.com. Schazjmd (talk) 17:49, 24 January 2021 (UTC) - Keep as per notability wp:soldier. Maybe WP:GNG: reliable and significant coverage too. I do think the article needs sections heavily trimming or rewriting as sections seem to read like a eulogy, perhaps by someone with a sentimental agenda to push, but the subject is noteworthy.-- Kieronoldham ( talk) 03:54, 25 January 2021 (UTC)
- Keep - Per WP:GNG. Sources are good. BabbaQ ( talk) 17:39, 25 January 2021 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was keep. Eddie891 Talk Work 13:17, 27 January 2021 (UTC)
Angel Mendez
[Hide this box] New to Articles for deletion (AfD)? Read these primers!
- Angel Mendez ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log)
- (Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
Fails WP:SOLDIER. A sergeant who received a single Navy Cross. Lettler hello • contribs 22:18, 11 January 2021 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of People-related deletion discussions. Lettler hello • contribs 22:18, 11 January 2021 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Military-related deletion discussions. Lettler hello • contribs 22:18, 11 January 2021 (UTC)
- Note This discussion has been included in the list of Puerto Rico-related deletion discussions. Lettler hello • contribs 22:18, 11 January 2021 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of United States of America-related deletion discussions. Lettler hello • contribs 22:18, 11 January 2021 (UTC)
- Delete fails WP:SOLDIER and WP:GNG, if his Navy Cross does get upgraded to MoH page can be recreated. Mztourist ( talk) 02:57, 12 January 2021 (UTC)
- Keep - Give me a break, Mendez saved the life of his platoon commander, Lieutenant Ronald D. Castille, who in the future became the Chief Justice of Pennsylvania. U.S. Senator Charles Schumer has recommended that Mendez' award be upgraded to the Medal of Honor, the United States highest military decoration. The St. George Post Office in Staten Island was renamed and is now known as the "Sergeant Angel Mendez Post Office." and you're telling me he is not notable? Tony the Marine ( talk) 02:37, 12 January 2021 (UTC)
- Yes, he's not notable. Read
WP:NOTINHERITED, saving someone notable doesn't confer notability. The upgrade request was filed in 2003, so it seems very unlikely that it will happen. Having a Post Office named after you doesn't establish notability, we have soldiers who had U.S. Navy ships named after them fail notability and be deleted.
Mztourist (
talk)
16:25, 12 January 2021 (UTC)
- The namesakes of USN ships who have been redirected are entirely different as those soldiers lacked significant coverage and often their existence could only be sourced to one source, which is not the case here.
Kges1901 (
talk)
22:12, 12 January 2021 (UTC)
- That's not true, some had more than one source, but never amounted to SIGCOV in multiple RS, just like Mendez. Mztourist ( talk) 05:26, 13 January 2021 (UTC)
- Please contact me if you have some direction to follow or the filing of Angels upgrade submission. If you have some type of official document regarding angel's up grade it would serve as great help to us all. Again, I can't express how important a formal document at this point would help. Please contact me on face book. My name is Michael Sulsona. You can also get in touch with me through the Stephen Siller Foundation. I am a Vietnam vet myself, Marine and lost both legs in comat and currently working as a service officer. Thanks! 100.33.151.9 ( talk) 00:55, 12 April 2022 (UTC)
- The namesakes of USN ships who have been redirected are entirely different as those soldiers lacked significant coverage and often their existence could only be sourced to one source, which is not the case here.
Kges1901 (
talk)
22:12, 12 January 2021 (UTC)
- Yes, he's not notable. Read
WP:NOTINHERITED, saving someone notable doesn't confer notability. The upgrade request was filed in 2003, so it seems very unlikely that it will happen. Having a Post Office named after you doesn't establish notability, we have soldiers who had U.S. Navy ships named after them fail notability and be deleted.
Mztourist (
talk)
16:25, 12 January 2021 (UTC)
- Delete saving someone notable does not make someone notable. A reccomendation for an upgrade is not an upgrade, he does not meet inclusion criteria. John Pack Lambert ( talk) 20:16, 12 January 2021 (UTC)
- Keep Meeting WP:GNG is coverage, not achievement based, and Mendez passes the coverage bar with significant coverage in multiple independent RS newspapers. He is the subject of a front-page story in the Philadelphia Inquirer, a large-circulation major city newspaper, and numerous news articles such as [1] [2] [3] [4] [5]. Kges1901 ( talk) 22:06, 12 January 2021 (UTC)
- First source incorrectly states he was awarded the Medal of Honor; 2nd, 3rd, 4th and 5th sources are all Staten Island News, i.e. his local newspaper where he is obviously a local hero. The story in the Philadelphia Inquirer is just a short piece about the (unsuccessful) attempt to upgrade his Navy Cross, so no that's not SIGCOV in multiple RS.
Mztourist (
talk)
03:26, 13 January 2021 (UTC)
- The correctness of the first source is irrelevant as the quoted family member may have been misinformed, but either way it still demonstrates coverage. The Staten Island news coverage cannot simply be discounted as it shows that Mendez receives coverage over a long period of time despite the failure of the MoH upgrade effort. It is ridiculous to claim that a front page news story is 'short' as it is one of the longest stories by word count in the newspaper that day, and the story is about him as it contains biographical information, not simply the effort to upgrade his Navy Cross. Again, the success or failure of an upgrade attempt is irrelevant as there is still significant coverage of Mendez either way. All three newspapers are each RS and these articles are focused on Mendez himself so they are by definition multiple RS.
Kges1901 (
talk)
15:47, 13 January 2021 (UTC)
- First source must be ignored due to fundamental error, so there are two sources, three stories in his local paper and one in the Philadelphia Inquirer, not SIGCOV in multiple RS. Mztourist ( talk) 03:46, 18 January 2021 (UTC)
- The correctness of the first source is irrelevant as the quoted family member may have been misinformed, but either way it still demonstrates coverage. The Staten Island news coverage cannot simply be discounted as it shows that Mendez receives coverage over a long period of time despite the failure of the MoH upgrade effort. It is ridiculous to claim that a front page news story is 'short' as it is one of the longest stories by word count in the newspaper that day, and the story is about him as it contains biographical information, not simply the effort to upgrade his Navy Cross. Again, the success or failure of an upgrade attempt is irrelevant as there is still significant coverage of Mendez either way. All three newspapers are each RS and these articles are focused on Mendez himself so they are by definition multiple RS.
Kges1901 (
talk)
15:47, 13 January 2021 (UTC)
- First source incorrectly states he was awarded the Medal of Honor; 2nd, 3rd, 4th and 5th sources are all Staten Island News, i.e. his local newspaper where he is obviously a local hero. The story in the Philadelphia Inquirer is just a short piece about the (unsuccessful) attempt to upgrade his Navy Cross, so no that's not SIGCOV in multiple RS.
Mztourist (
talk)
03:26, 13 January 2021 (UTC)
- Keep - He was awarded the Medal of Honor and his family accepted his Medal of Honor on Memorial Day 2008 in San Juan Puerto Rico. The source is here Newspress Fort Myers, May 15, 2008. -- The Eloquent Peasant ( talk) 02:40, 13 January 2021 (UTC)
- He did not receive the Medal of Honor. Look at www.cmohs.org, he's not listed there. Your source is wrong.
Mztourist (
talk)
03:17, 13 January 2021 (UTC)
- Sorry, the way I read the article, the way it's written it sounded / read like it was a done deal. My vote is still keep because he's received significant coverage. --
The Eloquent Peasant (
talk)
03:45, 13 January 2021 (UTC)
- Yes, the article was completely wrong. What SIGCOV in what RS?
Mztourist (
talk)
05:24, 13 January 2021 (UTC)
- The article was not completely wrong. I added and removed incorrect information because of how the resource stated the information. The 50th anniversary of his death was honored by the community in a ceremony. A school was renamed in his honor. Those two sources have been added for you to now come along and disparage. The Eloquent Peasant ( talk) 18:52, 23 January 2021 (UTC)
- Yes, the article was completely wrong. What SIGCOV in what RS?
Mztourist (
talk)
05:24, 13 January 2021 (UTC)
- Sorry, the way I read the article, the way it's written it sounded / read like it was a done deal. My vote is still keep because he's received significant coverage. --
The Eloquent Peasant (
talk)
03:45, 13 January 2021 (UTC)
- He did not receive the Medal of Honor. Look at www.cmohs.org, he's not listed there. Your source is wrong.
Mztourist (
talk)
03:17, 13 January 2021 (UTC)
- Keep seems notable based on wp:soldier. Peter303x ( talk) 21:27, 15 January 2021 (UTC)
- Keep If an individual has a US federal building named after him, he is notable, end of the Notability argument. This was the case with this soldier.
[1] ("On January 03, 2012, President Barack Obama signed into law the designation of this post office in Honor of Sergeant Mendez.") Naming of federal buildings, certainly Post Offices, is done with approval and recommendation of US Congress. Lack of notability is not a valid delete argument here.
Mercy11 (
talk)
00:27, 16 January 2021 (UTC)
- A post office? I'd understand your argument with something like a proper federal office building, but a post office? Lettler hello • contribs 02:33, 18 January 2021 (UTC)
- Come back the day you have a PO named after you and we can discuss that further. Thank you.
Mercy11 (
talk)
01:06, 20 January 2021 (UTC)
- A US Post Office named after him gives him notability. United States Post Offices are established by the United States Congress as written in the United States Constitution. [2] So a United States Post Office is not just some insignificant building, like say a corner store might be.-- The Eloquent Peasant ( talk) 18:52, 23 January 2021 (UTC)
- Come back the day you have a PO named after you and we can discuss that further. Thank you.
Mercy11 (
talk)
01:06, 20 January 2021 (UTC)
- OPPOSE/Keep - appears to meet the wiki standard for general notoriety — Preceding unsigned comment added by Klgeels ( talk • contribs) 02:34, 20 January 2021 (UTC)
References
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Daniel ( talk) 04:30, 20 January 2021 (UTC)
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Daniel ( talk) 04:30, 20 January 2021 (UTC)
- Keep, per above; how many buildings have to be named after you before you become "notable"? WP:SOLDIER is an essay, and not a guideline. jp× g 17:21, 21 January 2021 (UTC)
- It's about having SIGCOV in multiple RS, not one Post Office named after him. Mztourist ( talk) 09:53, 22 January 2021 (UTC)
- Keep, for the reasons of those who want this article kept. Davidgoodheart ( talk) 15:44, 22 January 2021 (UTC)
- Keep per discussion. Article definitely meets WP:GNG. Enough on the article to pass WP:SOLDIER too. CAVETOWNFAN ( talk) 14:15, 23 January 2021 (UTC)
- Amazing, User:CAVETOWNFAN has been on WP for 1 day and comes to this discussion... Mztourist ( talk) 03:56, 25 January 2021 (UTC)
- Keep per
WP:ANYBIO: Navy Cross, US post office, and a high school combined meet
well-known and significant award or honor
, and there are sufficient RSs to document a verifiable biography, with significant coverage by Philadelphia Inquirer, Fort Myers News-Press, SILive.com. Schazjmd (talk) 17:49, 24 January 2021 (UTC) - Keep as per notability wp:soldier. Maybe WP:GNG: reliable and significant coverage too. I do think the article needs sections heavily trimming or rewriting as sections seem to read like a eulogy, perhaps by someone with a sentimental agenda to push, but the subject is noteworthy.-- Kieronoldham ( talk) 03:54, 25 January 2021 (UTC)
- Keep - Per WP:GNG. Sources are good. BabbaQ ( talk) 17:39, 25 January 2021 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.