- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was no consensus. Two competing policies being at war with each other can't be solved out at AfD. -- Amanda (aka DQ) 16:49, 7 February 2021 (UTC)
Alfred Ackroyd (New Zealand cricketer)
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- Alfred Ackroyd (New Zealand cricketer) ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log)
- (Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
One of many cricket articles that fail WP:GNG big time. After four other AfDs on cricket players I started ended all in "redirect" ( 1 2 3), 4), I redirected some other articles with the same lack of individual notability. This was reverted for being "pointy disruption" by the article creator. So I'll nominate them for AfD instead, with no objection from my side to either deletion or redirection. I nominate them individually, as it may turn out that, despite my searches for sources, some of these can be shown to be actually notable. Fram ( talk) 13:58, 18 January 2021 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Sportspeople-related deletion discussions. Fram ( talk) 13:58, 18 January 2021 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Cricket-related deletion discussions. Fram ( talk) 13:58, 18 January 2021 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of New Zealand-related deletion discussions. Fram ( talk) 13:58, 18 January 2021 (UTC)
- Keep Passes
WP:NCRIC. The nom made a recent
failed RfC to remove the said notability requirements. Since then, they have tried to circumnavigate this by making mass redirects instead. The nom has said that they "
have no beef with Lugnuts", however following their failed RfC, have seemingly gone out of their way to target artciles I've worked on. Another
RfC on sporting articles closed with the comments "As with the RfC on secondary school notability, this should not be an invitation to "flood AfD with indiscriminate or excessive nominations". And yet, there have been 25+ AfDs logged by Fram in a 15/20 minute window, indicating no
WP:BEFORE was used.
Lugnuts
Fire Walk with Me
14:21, 18 January 2021 (UTC)
- For my reply, see here. Fram ( talk) 14:33, 18 January 2021 (UTC)
- There's no qualms in creating them, as they meet the notability criteria, which you tried and failed to get rid of. And this is the issue. Lugnuts Fire Walk with Me 14:35, 18 January 2021 (UTC)
- Keep Meets
WP:NCRIC. Nominator didn't do a WP:BEFORE to show the opposite. The nominator nominated (automatically) a large amount of cricketeers. It would have been better to made a bunch of them in one nomination.
SportsOlympic (
talk)
15:53, 18 January 2021 (UTC)
- You have posted the same incorrect claims about me (which are not relevant to keeping or deleting this article anyway) at all these AfDs. I hope you will be kind enough to take into account my answer at one of them [1] and correct all your statements accordingly. Fram ( talk) 16:18, 18 January 2021 (UTC)
- Keep. Meets
WP:CRIN and given that this guy was from NZ, I'd hedge my bets there's archive sources for him.
StickyWicket (
talk)
15:20, 19 January 2021 (UTC)
- All these AfDs are for NZ cricketers, from one team (Otago), only surnames A and part of B. There may be good sources for all of these, but so far in most cases no one has unearthed them; so basing a "keep" on the belief that sources should exist seems a tad optimistic. In any case, if these are redirected (or deleted) and sources are later found, then the articles can always be resurrected. An AfD is not "delete for ever", but "until the necessary sources are presented". Fram ( talk) 15:25, 19 January 2021 (UTC)
- Sources for this one? This is a bit harder than usual, because there was an English cricketer of the same name, but all that can be found are mirrors of Wikipedia, or statistics databases [2] [3]. Searching with his year of birth and death, place of birth, or middle name, doesn't give any better results. Fram ( talk) 15:32, 19 January 2021 (UTC)
- Delete totally fails GNG which is the minimum standard for all articles. Any article that fails to meet GNG should be deleted. John Pack Lambert ( talk) 19:43, 19 January 2021 (UTC)
- Delete - fails WP:GNG. Nothing notable about him in my searches. WP:ATD is redirect. Störm (talk) 21:39, 19 January 2021 (UTC)
- Delete or merge/redirect to List of Otago representative cricketers. Subject trivially passes NCRIC, but by consensus that only provides an extremely weak presumption of notability that is totally unreliable for cricketers such as these who have played very few matches ( recent NSPORT discussion here). Fails all meaningful guidelines including GNG. wjemather please leave a message... 15:15, 24 January 2021 (UTC)
- Redirect to List of Otago representative cricketers, for whom he played three of his four matches. This is an established alternative to deletion and provides an opportunity to recover the text of this article should sources be found which mean that the chap can be shown to pass the GNG. Trivial pass of NCRIC has been established at multiple AfD as not sufficient to show that sources will exist. Blue Square Thing ( talk) 18:05, 24 January 2021 (UTC)
- Keep - if you wish to help find sources, an AfD discussion is not the way to go about it. Bobo . 19:29, 24 January 2021 (UTC)
- Keep, per WP:NCRIC. The point of that is that at this level there will be enough reliable sources, it is just a matter of someone putting in the time to find them. The existence of the page is the best trigger for that. Moonraker ( talk) 18:26, 30 January 2021 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Onel5969 TT me 19:13, 30 January 2021 (UTC)
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Onel5969 TT me 19:13, 30 January 2021 (UTC)
- Delete, fails WP:GNG. Just because it passes WP:NCRIC doesn't mean it can just go through without making sure it reaches GNG. Kline | vroom vroom 19:37, 30 January 2021 (UTC)
- Delete, As per above fails WP:GNG. Cuoxo ( talk) 15:55, 31 January 2021 (UTC)
- Keep, The article needs expanding not deleting as I searched for Ackroyd in New Zealand papers on NewspaperArchive around the time he played and I got 208 results for Ackroyd between 1900-1910. Of course some of those won't be that cricket player but there are sources out there. Examples being
here,
here and
here to name a few.
HawkAussie (
talk)
23:29, 6 February 2021 (UTC)
- Passing mentions in routine sports coverage (match reports and scorecards) does not equate to WP:SIGCOV of the individual. wjemather please leave a message... 12:37, 2 February 2021 (UTC)
- Keep. Passes WP:CRIN, which is still the relevant guideline here despite attempts to remove it. Also appears to have plenty of contemporary mentions (though some evidence also to suggest that he was known by his second forename, not his first). Johnlp ( talk) 12:02, 5 February 2021 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was no consensus. Two competing policies being at war with each other can't be solved out at AfD. -- Amanda (aka DQ) 16:49, 7 February 2021 (UTC)
Alfred Ackroyd (New Zealand cricketer)
[Hide this box] New to Articles for deletion (AfD)? Read these primers!
- Alfred Ackroyd (New Zealand cricketer) ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log)
- (Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
One of many cricket articles that fail WP:GNG big time. After four other AfDs on cricket players I started ended all in "redirect" ( 1 2 3), 4), I redirected some other articles with the same lack of individual notability. This was reverted for being "pointy disruption" by the article creator. So I'll nominate them for AfD instead, with no objection from my side to either deletion or redirection. I nominate them individually, as it may turn out that, despite my searches for sources, some of these can be shown to be actually notable. Fram ( talk) 13:58, 18 January 2021 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Sportspeople-related deletion discussions. Fram ( talk) 13:58, 18 January 2021 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Cricket-related deletion discussions. Fram ( talk) 13:58, 18 January 2021 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of New Zealand-related deletion discussions. Fram ( talk) 13:58, 18 January 2021 (UTC)
- Keep Passes
WP:NCRIC. The nom made a recent
failed RfC to remove the said notability requirements. Since then, they have tried to circumnavigate this by making mass redirects instead. The nom has said that they "
have no beef with Lugnuts", however following their failed RfC, have seemingly gone out of their way to target artciles I've worked on. Another
RfC on sporting articles closed with the comments "As with the RfC on secondary school notability, this should not be an invitation to "flood AfD with indiscriminate or excessive nominations". And yet, there have been 25+ AfDs logged by Fram in a 15/20 minute window, indicating no
WP:BEFORE was used.
Lugnuts
Fire Walk with Me
14:21, 18 January 2021 (UTC)
- For my reply, see here. Fram ( talk) 14:33, 18 January 2021 (UTC)
- There's no qualms in creating them, as they meet the notability criteria, which you tried and failed to get rid of. And this is the issue. Lugnuts Fire Walk with Me 14:35, 18 January 2021 (UTC)
- Keep Meets
WP:NCRIC. Nominator didn't do a WP:BEFORE to show the opposite. The nominator nominated (automatically) a large amount of cricketeers. It would have been better to made a bunch of them in one nomination.
SportsOlympic (
talk)
15:53, 18 January 2021 (UTC)
- You have posted the same incorrect claims about me (which are not relevant to keeping or deleting this article anyway) at all these AfDs. I hope you will be kind enough to take into account my answer at one of them [1] and correct all your statements accordingly. Fram ( talk) 16:18, 18 January 2021 (UTC)
- Keep. Meets
WP:CRIN and given that this guy was from NZ, I'd hedge my bets there's archive sources for him.
StickyWicket (
talk)
15:20, 19 January 2021 (UTC)
- All these AfDs are for NZ cricketers, from one team (Otago), only surnames A and part of B. There may be good sources for all of these, but so far in most cases no one has unearthed them; so basing a "keep" on the belief that sources should exist seems a tad optimistic. In any case, if these are redirected (or deleted) and sources are later found, then the articles can always be resurrected. An AfD is not "delete for ever", but "until the necessary sources are presented". Fram ( talk) 15:25, 19 January 2021 (UTC)
- Sources for this one? This is a bit harder than usual, because there was an English cricketer of the same name, but all that can be found are mirrors of Wikipedia, or statistics databases [2] [3]. Searching with his year of birth and death, place of birth, or middle name, doesn't give any better results. Fram ( talk) 15:32, 19 January 2021 (UTC)
- Delete totally fails GNG which is the minimum standard for all articles. Any article that fails to meet GNG should be deleted. John Pack Lambert ( talk) 19:43, 19 January 2021 (UTC)
- Delete - fails WP:GNG. Nothing notable about him in my searches. WP:ATD is redirect. Störm (talk) 21:39, 19 January 2021 (UTC)
- Delete or merge/redirect to List of Otago representative cricketers. Subject trivially passes NCRIC, but by consensus that only provides an extremely weak presumption of notability that is totally unreliable for cricketers such as these who have played very few matches ( recent NSPORT discussion here). Fails all meaningful guidelines including GNG. wjemather please leave a message... 15:15, 24 January 2021 (UTC)
- Redirect to List of Otago representative cricketers, for whom he played three of his four matches. This is an established alternative to deletion and provides an opportunity to recover the text of this article should sources be found which mean that the chap can be shown to pass the GNG. Trivial pass of NCRIC has been established at multiple AfD as not sufficient to show that sources will exist. Blue Square Thing ( talk) 18:05, 24 January 2021 (UTC)
- Keep - if you wish to help find sources, an AfD discussion is not the way to go about it. Bobo . 19:29, 24 January 2021 (UTC)
- Keep, per WP:NCRIC. The point of that is that at this level there will be enough reliable sources, it is just a matter of someone putting in the time to find them. The existence of the page is the best trigger for that. Moonraker ( talk) 18:26, 30 January 2021 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Onel5969 TT me 19:13, 30 January 2021 (UTC)
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Onel5969 TT me 19:13, 30 January 2021 (UTC)
- Delete, fails WP:GNG. Just because it passes WP:NCRIC doesn't mean it can just go through without making sure it reaches GNG. Kline | vroom vroom 19:37, 30 January 2021 (UTC)
- Delete, As per above fails WP:GNG. Cuoxo ( talk) 15:55, 31 January 2021 (UTC)
- Keep, The article needs expanding not deleting as I searched for Ackroyd in New Zealand papers on NewspaperArchive around the time he played and I got 208 results for Ackroyd between 1900-1910. Of course some of those won't be that cricket player but there are sources out there. Examples being
here,
here and
here to name a few.
HawkAussie (
talk)
23:29, 6 February 2021 (UTC)
- Passing mentions in routine sports coverage (match reports and scorecards) does not equate to WP:SIGCOV of the individual. wjemather please leave a message... 12:37, 2 February 2021 (UTC)
- Keep. Passes WP:CRIN, which is still the relevant guideline here despite attempts to remove it. Also appears to have plenty of contemporary mentions (though some evidence also to suggest that he was known by his second forename, not his first). Johnlp ( talk) 12:02, 5 February 2021 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.