The result was no consensus between keep and merge. A consensus to delete is not going to emerge here, and the discussion has run a month. Further discussion, including a potential new name can continue on the Talk. Star Mississippi 14:59, 16 January 2024 (UTC)
[Hide this box] New to Articles for deletion (AfD)? Read these primers!
Non-notable physical feature. Deleting it is grounded in policy. WP:GEONATURAL states:
The sources are exclusively primary and some not even reliable like the GNIS. There is no coverage about this feature, only mentions of it. So "information on the feature can instead be included in a more general article on local geography". And so I suggest Deleting and then writing about this feature elsewhere. बिनोद थारू ( talk) 00:04, 18 December 2023 (UTC)
No, as it has no legal recognition. So it must be deleted. बिनोद थारू ( talk) 01:04, 18 December 2023 (UTC)
The location of the flat from the GNIS dataset doesn't actually match the archaeological report mentioned by Coolabahapple in the last AFD discussion, which is actually the sort of source to be using here instead of trying to abuse the GNIS via multiple different routes. We don't get encyclopaedia articles by repeatedly abusing gazetteer database entries in different guises, and quandrangle names are not indicative of anything.
So that's 1 source, with some encyclopaedia content in it.
One might think that another is the Preliminary studies using syntheic polymers to reduce turbidity in a hatchery water supply paper by Olson, Chase, and Hanson in the Proceedings of the Northwest Fish Culture Conference, Volume 22, 1971 (also printed in the 1972 The Progressive Fish Culturist), which despite the title tells us a bit about the watershed, and there are other things to be found including BuSpoFisWil statements about Alchesay Spring in the Congressional Record. Also there are actual history books. We can connect Alchesay to North Fork White River through Baeza, Joan (2014). Pinetop-Lakeside. Images of America. Arcadia Publishing. pp. 17–18. ISBN 9781467132169..
However, like many of these sources the real topic is not the flat, but North Fork White River, which is the actual location where the hatchery, the upstream reservoir, and Chief Alchesay's residence, all are in everything that discusses them. Alchesay "eventually became a farmer on the North Fork of the White River" says the 1978 ISBN 9780823022397, for example.
All of this focus on trying to write a gazetteer using nothing but a fairly bad other gazetteer would be better directed at writing an encyclopaedia based upon everything from history books to USDOI reports; and getting where things are right, instead of trying to extend inferences from a 1986 paper printout of the GNIS computer database.
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: Relisting this discussion as there are very opposing arguments here.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks,
Liz
Read!
Talk!
00:37, 25 December 2023 (UTC)
The final "from the tribal government" source is in fact organizing a dance ceremony when one actually reads it, and doesn't document an Alchesay Flat at all. Rather, buried in an itinerary, the bad research by Google phrase matching has found a dance location of "Yvonna Redsteer's cornfield". A field. Of corn. Even when prodded to do better, are Wikipedia editors this bad at reading sources?
Uncle G ( talk) 11:24, 26 December 2023 (UTC)
You selectively mis-read the sources to get us a corn field as a populated place. You mis-read the article, whose first sentence tells you that this is "a physical feature, named flat" (as indeed the GNIS computer database record, using the feature code "flat", did). And you mis-read the maps where the words "Alchesay Flat" run diagonally along a flat.
This is a flat, and trying to prove something that neither the computer database record nor the article itself originally asserted, that this is a populated place just because someone mentions the flat in conjunction with Whiteriver, Arizona and North Fork, Arizona, is really putting the goal of trying to "save" an article ahead of actually having Wikipedia tell the truth.
You are synthesising rubbish. As I said before, all of this effort would be better directed at trying to find documentation of the landform. But the problem with that is that there is very little to none of that. Hence your omissions of the context of Whiteriver, North Fork, the cornfield, and the other desperate reaches to try and falsely document a flat as something else when it is hard to document it as what it is.
Uncle G ( talk) 15:00, 1 January 2024 (UTC)
trying to find documentation of the landformis what I, and other users, have done. Sources are open to interpretation, and you are free to disagree with mine. If you have sources to support your assertion it is not a populated place, I would be glad to evaluate them. Presidentman talk · contribs ( Talkback) 20:16, 4 January 2024 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks,
Sandstein
08:55, 1 January 2024 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: One more try...
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks,
CycloneYoris
talk!
03:39, 9 January 2024 (UTC)
The result was no consensus between keep and merge. A consensus to delete is not going to emerge here, and the discussion has run a month. Further discussion, including a potential new name can continue on the Talk. Star Mississippi 14:59, 16 January 2024 (UTC)
[Hide this box] New to Articles for deletion (AfD)? Read these primers!
Non-notable physical feature. Deleting it is grounded in policy. WP:GEONATURAL states:
The sources are exclusively primary and some not even reliable like the GNIS. There is no coverage about this feature, only mentions of it. So "information on the feature can instead be included in a more general article on local geography". And so I suggest Deleting and then writing about this feature elsewhere. बिनोद थारू ( talk) 00:04, 18 December 2023 (UTC)
No, as it has no legal recognition. So it must be deleted. बिनोद थारू ( talk) 01:04, 18 December 2023 (UTC)
The location of the flat from the GNIS dataset doesn't actually match the archaeological report mentioned by Coolabahapple in the last AFD discussion, which is actually the sort of source to be using here instead of trying to abuse the GNIS via multiple different routes. We don't get encyclopaedia articles by repeatedly abusing gazetteer database entries in different guises, and quandrangle names are not indicative of anything.
So that's 1 source, with some encyclopaedia content in it.
One might think that another is the Preliminary studies using syntheic polymers to reduce turbidity in a hatchery water supply paper by Olson, Chase, and Hanson in the Proceedings of the Northwest Fish Culture Conference, Volume 22, 1971 (also printed in the 1972 The Progressive Fish Culturist), which despite the title tells us a bit about the watershed, and there are other things to be found including BuSpoFisWil statements about Alchesay Spring in the Congressional Record. Also there are actual history books. We can connect Alchesay to North Fork White River through Baeza, Joan (2014). Pinetop-Lakeside. Images of America. Arcadia Publishing. pp. 17–18. ISBN 9781467132169..
However, like many of these sources the real topic is not the flat, but North Fork White River, which is the actual location where the hatchery, the upstream reservoir, and Chief Alchesay's residence, all are in everything that discusses them. Alchesay "eventually became a farmer on the North Fork of the White River" says the 1978 ISBN 9780823022397, for example.
All of this focus on trying to write a gazetteer using nothing but a fairly bad other gazetteer would be better directed at writing an encyclopaedia based upon everything from history books to USDOI reports; and getting where things are right, instead of trying to extend inferences from a 1986 paper printout of the GNIS computer database.
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: Relisting this discussion as there are very opposing arguments here.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks,
Liz
Read!
Talk!
00:37, 25 December 2023 (UTC)
The final "from the tribal government" source is in fact organizing a dance ceremony when one actually reads it, and doesn't document an Alchesay Flat at all. Rather, buried in an itinerary, the bad research by Google phrase matching has found a dance location of "Yvonna Redsteer's cornfield". A field. Of corn. Even when prodded to do better, are Wikipedia editors this bad at reading sources?
Uncle G ( talk) 11:24, 26 December 2023 (UTC)
You selectively mis-read the sources to get us a corn field as a populated place. You mis-read the article, whose first sentence tells you that this is "a physical feature, named flat" (as indeed the GNIS computer database record, using the feature code "flat", did). And you mis-read the maps where the words "Alchesay Flat" run diagonally along a flat.
This is a flat, and trying to prove something that neither the computer database record nor the article itself originally asserted, that this is a populated place just because someone mentions the flat in conjunction with Whiteriver, Arizona and North Fork, Arizona, is really putting the goal of trying to "save" an article ahead of actually having Wikipedia tell the truth.
You are synthesising rubbish. As I said before, all of this effort would be better directed at trying to find documentation of the landform. But the problem with that is that there is very little to none of that. Hence your omissions of the context of Whiteriver, North Fork, the cornfield, and the other desperate reaches to try and falsely document a flat as something else when it is hard to document it as what it is.
Uncle G ( talk) 15:00, 1 January 2024 (UTC)
trying to find documentation of the landformis what I, and other users, have done. Sources are open to interpretation, and you are free to disagree with mine. If you have sources to support your assertion it is not a populated place, I would be glad to evaluate them. Presidentman talk · contribs ( Talkback) 20:16, 4 January 2024 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks,
Sandstein
08:55, 1 January 2024 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: One more try...
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks,
CycloneYoris
talk!
03:39, 9 January 2024 (UTC)