- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was keep. Doczilla Ohhhhhh, no! 07:05, 18 June 2024 (UTC)
AKA Mr. Chow
[Hide this box] New to Articles for deletion (AfD)? Read these primers!
- AKA Mr. Chow ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log | edits since nomination)
- (Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
No clear evidence or assertion of notability. Article has previously been recreated, which I redirected to subject, and again a second time, which was disputed by creator, hence ending up at AfD.
References offered only prove show exists and that subject themselves is notable (as they have their own article), but a show about them is not in itself necessarily notable in its own right. In contrast to a running series of multiple episodes, this seems to be a single documentary programme that can best be covered on the subject's own article. Bungle ( talk • contribs) 06:20, 11 June 2024 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Television and Business. Bungle ( talk • contribs) 06:20, 11 June 2024 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Film and United States of America. ― "Ghost of Dan Gurney" (talk) 06:26, 11 June 2024 (UTC)
- Sorry but the following statement is almost bizarre:
In contrast to a running series of multiple episodes, this seems to be a single documentary programme that can best be covered on the subject's own article.
.....???? .... Documentary films that are not series MAY be notable, most evidently.- My, oh my! (Mushy Yank) 14:33, 11 June 2024 (UTC)
- Keep: At least one of the current refs is clearly about the movie — the
Hollywood Reporter article is called "Michael Chow Shares the Pain Behind the Glamour in New Documentary ‘AKA Mr. Chow’". There's also a
Wall Street Journal review called "‘AKA Mr. Chow’ Review: Portrait of the Artist as a Restaurateur", and a
Beverly Hills Courier review called "‘AKA Mr. Chow’—But Who is ‘M?’"
Toughpigs (
talk) 06:42, 11 June 2024 (UTC)
- My thoughts on this really are that this is a documentary programme, not a film, so we aren't looking at notability in necessarily the same way. The documentary is about the subject, who is notable, whereas a film article would be expected to assert notability in its own right (like a tv episode, series etc). The question really is whether the actual documentary series is notable in its own right, irrespective that it covers (and is biographical in its nature) a subject who we know is notable.
- My view on the sources largely are that they are really useful in expanding the article on the individual, but I can't be sure if they assert notability to have a standalone article for a 90min documentary programme.
Bungle (
talk •
contribs) 11:37, 11 June 2024 (UTC)
a documentary programme, not a film
....hmmm.....yes, this a documentary film. (it's available on HBO but that does not make it a non-film)...and yes, it's notable "in its own right" as multiple reviews and a lot of very significant coverage addressing the subject in depth and directly in extremelynotablereliable (and independent) sources prove it. Kindly have a look at the sources that have been added and check the rest of the existing ones, thank you. - My, oh my! (Mushy Yank) 14:15, 11 June 2024 (UTC)-
Selena Gomez: My Mind & Me is also a documentary; so is
Madonna: Truth or Dare. I'm not making an "other stuff exists" argument, just saying that there is no precedent for judging a documentary as non-notable just because it's about a notable subject. Notability is not un-inherited. As for the sources, as I said, there is a
Wall Street Journal review that begins with the phrase "‘AKA Mr. Chow’ Review". Why doesn't that count?
Toughpigs (
talk) 14:39, 11 June 2024 (UTC)
- Indeed, the 2 reviews in WSJ and Guardian should be enough to keep ANY film, and here we have 5-10 times that. (The reviews can ALSO be used to expand the bio of Chow, but that does not diminish the notability of the film according to WP requirements). - My, oh my! (Mushy Yank) 14:54, 11 June 2024 (UTC)
-
Selena Gomez: My Mind & Me is also a documentary; so is
Madonna: Truth or Dare. I'm not making an "other stuff exists" argument, just saying that there is no precedent for judging a documentary as non-notable just because it's about a notable subject. Notability is not un-inherited. As for the sources, as I said, there is a
Wall Street Journal review that begins with the phrase "‘AKA Mr. Chow’ Review". Why doesn't that count?
Toughpigs (
talk) 14:39, 11 June 2024 (UTC)
- (Keep):
I didn't search and onlythe sources that the page currently ha(d)s, but they seem(ed) to be sufficient to show it's notable. - My, oh my! (Mushy Yank) 09:26, 11 June 2024 (UTC) Did search 3 minutes. Added some. See for yourself. Changing to STRONG KEEP. - Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Food and drink-related deletion discussions. WCQuidditch ☎ ✎ 10:46, 11 June 2024 (UTC)
Redirect to Michael Chow (restaurateur) while there is nothing at all in the article. The sources are about the individual really and only mention the documentary as part of an interview or, worse, as a fact of existence, except the Hollywood Reporter article as mentioned. No need for a separate article— Iadmc ♫ talk 12:41, 11 June 2024 (UTC)- Redirect I don't see the need for a standalone article at this point. Reywas92 Talk 13:39, 11 June 2024 (UTC)
- Note to nominator@
Bungle:: Have you really checked existing sources??? also @
Iadmc and
Reywas92: Reviews and significant coverage in WSJ, Decider, Guardian, NYT, etc, etc...I'm inviting you to kindly withdraw this nomination. Added some to the page. - Feel free to add more!
My, oh my!
(Mushy Yank) 14:01, 11 June 2024 (UTC)
- I'd firstly note that edit summaries/comments such as
No evidence a BEFORE was indeed performed
andHave you really checked existing sources???
, do not feel like an assumption of good faith, and is a tone to perhaps reflect upon in future. My concerns where not through a lack of media coverage, as outlined. That said, regardless of my own view, consensus seems to be towards retaining, even though I still feel there is a credible case to rd or merge into the subject's article where it's barely mentioned, given it's broadly a collection of journalists' opinions and referencing overuse. Bungle ( talk • contribs) 05:56, 12 June 2024 (UTC)- What is
broadly a collection of journalists' opinions
according to you? If it's the sources added to the page, it seems to be another way for acknowledging the existence of LOTS of reviews, which you may have seen or read during your BEFORE, as apparently you consider that you have done one, which I indeed seriously doubted, for which I apologise since you seem to indicate you have and honestly did everything in your power to find sources ("If there are verifiability, notability or other sourcing concerns, take reasonable steps to search for reliable sources." said WP:BEFORE, and you are apparently telling me that you did. I will therefore assume that it's true.) and found "No clear evidence or assertion of notability
". - I don't think my tone was nasty, and it was sincerely not meant in a nasty way, but I did seriously doubt that you made a BEFORE at all (not questioning your general good faith but the fact that you really spent time checking sources), yes, and I am still surprised that a film with so many reviews was taken to Afd, when you could have just added the reviews that apparently you had seen and read (but that you did not even mention, btw) as GNG, NFILM, etc. are obviously and more than fairly met.
- I was not expecting thanks for presenting various sources that you may have seen during that BEFORE but if a film is reviewed in so many extremely reliable sources, your concern did and does not seem justified, nor does this Afd, for that matter, and calling additional sources that you are telling me you saw but failed to simply mention, even in a general statement (like "I have seen reviews in WSJ, Guardian, Decider, etc. during my BEFORE but think they're not enough for notability of a standalone page", "Despite a lot of media coverage found in my BEFORE, my concern is that it is not enough to warrant an article and etc." or smth of the kind),
referencing overuse
(unless you are, again, not referring to this article but to the one about Chow) is not exactly the response I was hoping, to be, again, perfectly honest with you. I take it you won't withdraw, then. - My, oh my! (Mushy Yank) 09:34, 12 June 2024 (UTC)- That is a lot of text to try and absorb, but i'll say I didn't say anything was "nasty", and I do admire your determination. That said, while I remain unconvinced that we should have, or need, a separate article for this (when on the basis of existing content, I feel it would be better suited being mentioned on the subject's article), I respect the consensus view that is to the contrary, so it seems fruitless at this stage to consider anything other than a withdrawal. Bungle ( talk • contribs) 16:40, 12 June 2024 (UTC)
- What is
- I'd firstly note that edit summaries/comments such as
- Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Food and drink, China, and United Kingdom. - My, oh my! (Mushy Yank) 14:37, 11 June 2024 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Visual arts and Architecture. - My, oh my! (Mushy Yank) 14:39, 11 June 2024 (UTC)
- Keep article has plenty of reliable sources. Eric Carpenter ( talk) 17:54, 11 June 2024 (UTC)
- Keep as the article know has referenced reviews from reliable sources such as The Guardian, Toronto Star, The Decider and therefore passes WP:NFILM in my view, Atlantic306 ( talk) 22:28, 11 June 2024 (UTC)
- Keep: The reviews in WSJ, Beverly Hills Courier, Toronto Star and MovieWeb are enough for GNG. Somebodyidkfkdt ( talk) 03:21, 12 June 2024 (UTC)
- Keep, per above, plenty of good sources exist. Randy Kryn ( talk) 12:18, 12 June 2024 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was keep. Doczilla Ohhhhhh, no! 07:05, 18 June 2024 (UTC)
AKA Mr. Chow
[Hide this box] New to Articles for deletion (AfD)? Read these primers!
- AKA Mr. Chow ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log | edits since nomination)
- (Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
No clear evidence or assertion of notability. Article has previously been recreated, which I redirected to subject, and again a second time, which was disputed by creator, hence ending up at AfD.
References offered only prove show exists and that subject themselves is notable (as they have their own article), but a show about them is not in itself necessarily notable in its own right. In contrast to a running series of multiple episodes, this seems to be a single documentary programme that can best be covered on the subject's own article. Bungle ( talk • contribs) 06:20, 11 June 2024 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Television and Business. Bungle ( talk • contribs) 06:20, 11 June 2024 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Film and United States of America. ― "Ghost of Dan Gurney" (talk) 06:26, 11 June 2024 (UTC)
- Sorry but the following statement is almost bizarre:
In contrast to a running series of multiple episodes, this seems to be a single documentary programme that can best be covered on the subject's own article.
.....???? .... Documentary films that are not series MAY be notable, most evidently.- My, oh my! (Mushy Yank) 14:33, 11 June 2024 (UTC)
- Keep: At least one of the current refs is clearly about the movie — the
Hollywood Reporter article is called "Michael Chow Shares the Pain Behind the Glamour in New Documentary ‘AKA Mr. Chow’". There's also a
Wall Street Journal review called "‘AKA Mr. Chow’ Review: Portrait of the Artist as a Restaurateur", and a
Beverly Hills Courier review called "‘AKA Mr. Chow’—But Who is ‘M?’"
Toughpigs (
talk) 06:42, 11 June 2024 (UTC)
- My thoughts on this really are that this is a documentary programme, not a film, so we aren't looking at notability in necessarily the same way. The documentary is about the subject, who is notable, whereas a film article would be expected to assert notability in its own right (like a tv episode, series etc). The question really is whether the actual documentary series is notable in its own right, irrespective that it covers (and is biographical in its nature) a subject who we know is notable.
- My view on the sources largely are that they are really useful in expanding the article on the individual, but I can't be sure if they assert notability to have a standalone article for a 90min documentary programme.
Bungle (
talk •
contribs) 11:37, 11 June 2024 (UTC)
a documentary programme, not a film
....hmmm.....yes, this a documentary film. (it's available on HBO but that does not make it a non-film)...and yes, it's notable "in its own right" as multiple reviews and a lot of very significant coverage addressing the subject in depth and directly in extremelynotablereliable (and independent) sources prove it. Kindly have a look at the sources that have been added and check the rest of the existing ones, thank you. - My, oh my! (Mushy Yank) 14:15, 11 June 2024 (UTC)-
Selena Gomez: My Mind & Me is also a documentary; so is
Madonna: Truth or Dare. I'm not making an "other stuff exists" argument, just saying that there is no precedent for judging a documentary as non-notable just because it's about a notable subject. Notability is not un-inherited. As for the sources, as I said, there is a
Wall Street Journal review that begins with the phrase "‘AKA Mr. Chow’ Review". Why doesn't that count?
Toughpigs (
talk) 14:39, 11 June 2024 (UTC)
- Indeed, the 2 reviews in WSJ and Guardian should be enough to keep ANY film, and here we have 5-10 times that. (The reviews can ALSO be used to expand the bio of Chow, but that does not diminish the notability of the film according to WP requirements). - My, oh my! (Mushy Yank) 14:54, 11 June 2024 (UTC)
-
Selena Gomez: My Mind & Me is also a documentary; so is
Madonna: Truth or Dare. I'm not making an "other stuff exists" argument, just saying that there is no precedent for judging a documentary as non-notable just because it's about a notable subject. Notability is not un-inherited. As for the sources, as I said, there is a
Wall Street Journal review that begins with the phrase "‘AKA Mr. Chow’ Review". Why doesn't that count?
Toughpigs (
talk) 14:39, 11 June 2024 (UTC)
- (Keep):
I didn't search and onlythe sources that the page currently ha(d)s, but they seem(ed) to be sufficient to show it's notable. - My, oh my! (Mushy Yank) 09:26, 11 June 2024 (UTC) Did search 3 minutes. Added some. See for yourself. Changing to STRONG KEEP. - Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Food and drink-related deletion discussions. WCQuidditch ☎ ✎ 10:46, 11 June 2024 (UTC)
Redirect to Michael Chow (restaurateur) while there is nothing at all in the article. The sources are about the individual really and only mention the documentary as part of an interview or, worse, as a fact of existence, except the Hollywood Reporter article as mentioned. No need for a separate article— Iadmc ♫ talk 12:41, 11 June 2024 (UTC)- Redirect I don't see the need for a standalone article at this point. Reywas92 Talk 13:39, 11 June 2024 (UTC)
- Note to nominator@
Bungle:: Have you really checked existing sources??? also @
Iadmc and
Reywas92: Reviews and significant coverage in WSJ, Decider, Guardian, NYT, etc, etc...I'm inviting you to kindly withdraw this nomination. Added some to the page. - Feel free to add more!
My, oh my!
(Mushy Yank) 14:01, 11 June 2024 (UTC)
- I'd firstly note that edit summaries/comments such as
No evidence a BEFORE was indeed performed
andHave you really checked existing sources???
, do not feel like an assumption of good faith, and is a tone to perhaps reflect upon in future. My concerns where not through a lack of media coverage, as outlined. That said, regardless of my own view, consensus seems to be towards retaining, even though I still feel there is a credible case to rd or merge into the subject's article where it's barely mentioned, given it's broadly a collection of journalists' opinions and referencing overuse. Bungle ( talk • contribs) 05:56, 12 June 2024 (UTC)- What is
broadly a collection of journalists' opinions
according to you? If it's the sources added to the page, it seems to be another way for acknowledging the existence of LOTS of reviews, which you may have seen or read during your BEFORE, as apparently you consider that you have done one, which I indeed seriously doubted, for which I apologise since you seem to indicate you have and honestly did everything in your power to find sources ("If there are verifiability, notability or other sourcing concerns, take reasonable steps to search for reliable sources." said WP:BEFORE, and you are apparently telling me that you did. I will therefore assume that it's true.) and found "No clear evidence or assertion of notability
". - I don't think my tone was nasty, and it was sincerely not meant in a nasty way, but I did seriously doubt that you made a BEFORE at all (not questioning your general good faith but the fact that you really spent time checking sources), yes, and I am still surprised that a film with so many reviews was taken to Afd, when you could have just added the reviews that apparently you had seen and read (but that you did not even mention, btw) as GNG, NFILM, etc. are obviously and more than fairly met.
- I was not expecting thanks for presenting various sources that you may have seen during that BEFORE but if a film is reviewed in so many extremely reliable sources, your concern did and does not seem justified, nor does this Afd, for that matter, and calling additional sources that you are telling me you saw but failed to simply mention, even in a general statement (like "I have seen reviews in WSJ, Guardian, Decider, etc. during my BEFORE but think they're not enough for notability of a standalone page", "Despite a lot of media coverage found in my BEFORE, my concern is that it is not enough to warrant an article and etc." or smth of the kind),
referencing overuse
(unless you are, again, not referring to this article but to the one about Chow) is not exactly the response I was hoping, to be, again, perfectly honest with you. I take it you won't withdraw, then. - My, oh my! (Mushy Yank) 09:34, 12 June 2024 (UTC)- That is a lot of text to try and absorb, but i'll say I didn't say anything was "nasty", and I do admire your determination. That said, while I remain unconvinced that we should have, or need, a separate article for this (when on the basis of existing content, I feel it would be better suited being mentioned on the subject's article), I respect the consensus view that is to the contrary, so it seems fruitless at this stage to consider anything other than a withdrawal. Bungle ( talk • contribs) 16:40, 12 June 2024 (UTC)
- What is
- I'd firstly note that edit summaries/comments such as
- Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Food and drink, China, and United Kingdom. - My, oh my! (Mushy Yank) 14:37, 11 June 2024 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Visual arts and Architecture. - My, oh my! (Mushy Yank) 14:39, 11 June 2024 (UTC)
- Keep article has plenty of reliable sources. Eric Carpenter ( talk) 17:54, 11 June 2024 (UTC)
- Keep as the article know has referenced reviews from reliable sources such as The Guardian, Toronto Star, The Decider and therefore passes WP:NFILM in my view, Atlantic306 ( talk) 22:28, 11 June 2024 (UTC)
- Keep: The reviews in WSJ, Beverly Hills Courier, Toronto Star and MovieWeb are enough for GNG. Somebodyidkfkdt ( talk) 03:21, 12 June 2024 (UTC)
- Keep, per above, plenty of good sources exist. Randy Kryn ( talk) 12:18, 12 June 2024 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.