- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was no consensus. Liz Read! Talk! 05:12, 4 October 2023 (UTC)
2021 Muskogee shooting
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- 2021 Muskogee shooting ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log | edits since nomination)
- (Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
Non-notable shooting; got a burst of coverage at the time but the only sources since are routine coverage of the court proceedings that do not meet WP:SUSTAINED. No lasting WP:EFFECTs. Elli ( talk | contribs) 01:10, 6 September 2023 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the
deletion sorting lists for the following topics:
Crime,
Events, and
Oklahoma.
Elli (
talk |
contribs) 01:10, 6 September 2023 (UTC)
- Second deadliest shooting in the state, seems notable. Sourcing is solid... What do others think?
Oaktree b (
talk) 01:18, 6 September 2023 (UTC)
- I don't see what makes the second-deadliest shooting in a state inherently notable? Six deaths unfortunately isn't particularly unusual in the American context (there were 11 such shootings with at least 6 victims in 2021, and of the four other shootings with exactly six victims, two don't have articles).
Elli (
talk |
contribs) 01:23, 6 September 2023 (UTC)
- Comment:I think if you check state newspapers you'll find things like anniversary coverage and more follow up coverage. I don't have the articles in front of me, but as a regular reader of the state's media coverage I've seen it pop up a few times. I'd have to do a
WP:before of the
Tulsa World and
The Oklahoman's archives before I'd feel comfortable voting.
TulsaPoliticsFan (
talk) 03:19, 6 September 2023 (UTC)
- I added some Trial coverage, but was honestly surprised I didn't find much more. I tried to find a state representative statement or response, but couldn't find any comments from public figures other than mayor Marlon Coleman.
- Also, I didn't find much anniversary coverage either. But there is probably a little more trial coverage than what I added. While technically deadlier than the 2022 Tulsa hospital shooting, the response and sustained coverage appear to be a bit less, at least looking at state sources. TulsaPoliticsFan ( talk) 16:46, 6 September 2023 (UTC)
- Comment:I think if you check state newspapers you'll find things like anniversary coverage and more follow up coverage. I don't have the articles in front of me, but as a regular reader of the state's media coverage I've seen it pop up a few times. I'd have to do a
WP:before of the
Tulsa World and
The Oklahoman's archives before I'd feel comfortable voting.
TulsaPoliticsFan (
talk) 03:19, 6 September 2023 (UTC)
- I don't see what makes the second-deadliest shooting in a state inherently notable? Six deaths unfortunately isn't particularly unusual in the American context (there were 11 such shootings with at least 6 victims in 2021, and of the four other shootings with exactly six victims, two don't have articles).
Elli (
talk |
contribs) 01:23, 6 September 2023 (UTC)
- Second deadliest shooting in the state, seems notable. Sourcing is solid... What do others think?
Oaktree b (
talk) 01:18, 6 September 2023 (UTC)
Weak Keep - This is the very edge of WP:NTEMP. Notability is pretty well established at the time of the incident (NYT, AP, USAT), and regional coverage continues (Fox in 22 and the Phoenix in 23). Unlike other mass shooting events, this seems to have regional repercussions which just barely satisfies WP:NEVENT in my view. If TulsaPoliticsFan can find more regional sources, then I would move to a much stronger Keep !vote, but I think it squeaks by with cited WP:RSs. Cheers, Last1in ( talk) 14:41, 6 September 2023 (UTC)•Weak Delete - TulsaPoliticsFan's research didn't turn out and WP:SIGCOV or WP:SUSTAINED outside already cited, and my own research simply didn't turn out anything for notable WP:EFFECTs of this event. Without that, we're left with WP:RSBREAKING as pointed out by other editors. Cheers, Last1in ( talk) 17:08, 13 September 2023 (UTC)- Delete unless any retrospective sources are found. Sources about this topic are all WP:RSBREAKING sources, either for the initial event or for the subsequent trial, and do not count toward GNG. Thebiguglyalien ( talk) 02:59, 7 September 2023 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Liz Read! Talk! 01:09, 13 September 2023 (UTC)- Keep. Notability doesn't expire.
Cortador (
talk) 09:59, 13 September 2023 (UTC)
- The deletion argument centre on the fact that notability (from an |NEVENT viewpoint) never existed, not that it lost notability over time. Based on TulsaPoliticsFan's dive into regional sources, I am scratching my !vote to keep (see edit above). Cheers, Last1in ( talk) 17:02, 13 September 2023 (UTC)
- Delete: My concern is the lack of WP:SUSTAINED coverage and discussion of the event. Unlike the 2022 Tulsa hospital shooting, this shooting did not generate push for reforms or long term coverage. The death count is high, but it is just a shooting at a home that the reporting indicates happened because the perp is mentally unwell. It generated substantial local coverage (expected from a smaller town), some state-wide coverage (but much less than other shootings I'd call notable), and national headlines immediately after (the strongest case for notability). If there was more state-wide coverage from Oklahoma papers, I'd vote keep, but from my research this doesn't appear that notable outside of Muskogee. TulsaPoliticsFan ( talk) 16:11, 13 September 2023 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Liz Read! Talk! 01:13, 20 September 2023 (UTC)
Delete: NOTNEWS. Six people getting shot is routine these days in the USA. Zero coverage found, 2 yrs later. Oaktree b ( talk) 13:13, 20 September 2023 (UTC)
- Apologies for perhaps not replying in the intended format but I wanted to share my 2 cents on this anyhow. I'm in favor of keeping it. The gravity of this topic may not be meet notability standards relative to American news context, as was pointed out elsewhere here, but from a non-American standpoint (such as mine) it still seems notable enough considering OK is a relatively quiet state and I think (not sure) this is the most severe assault since the 1995 OKC bombing. Kindly reconsider deletion, thank you.
Alfredvanderzwam (
talk) 14:54, 20 September 2023 (UTC)
- This comment on it being the deadliest violent event since the Oklahoma City Bombing appears to be mostly true. The only deadlier event (than the Muscogee shooting, not the bombing) we have an article for since is the 2023 Henryetta killings. On the other hand, I wouldn't call us a quiet state; I mean it is an open carry, or constitutional carry if you wanna be technical, state. Shootings aren't uncommon here. TulsaPoliticsFan ( talk) 17:34, 20 September 2023 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: Final relist. User:Oaktree b can you cancel out your duplicate vote so it's easier to see where things stand?
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Liz Read! Talk! 03:31, 27 September 2023 (UTC)
- Delete per nom, NOTNEWS and SUSTAINED. Sadly, not an uncommon occurrence these days in the United States. Clarityfiend ( talk) 04:21, 27 September 2023 (UTC)
- Keep — A rampage murder of this scale isn't unique, but remains uncommon. The event currently stands at #64 in List of rampage killers (familicides in the United States). On that list there has been ONE such mass murder since this one happened in February 2021, and just eleven since 2010. (Yes there are other kinds of mass killings in the USA as well, but again we're speaking of under ten a year at this scale.) Separately, there has been at least some follow-up coverage marking the anniversary of the killing [1], [2].-- Carwil ( talk) 03:35, 4 October 2023 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was no consensus. Liz Read! Talk! 05:12, 4 October 2023 (UTC)
2021 Muskogee shooting
[Hide this box] New to Articles for deletion (AfD)? Read these primers!
- 2021 Muskogee shooting ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log | edits since nomination)
- (Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
Non-notable shooting; got a burst of coverage at the time but the only sources since are routine coverage of the court proceedings that do not meet WP:SUSTAINED. No lasting WP:EFFECTs. Elli ( talk | contribs) 01:10, 6 September 2023 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the
deletion sorting lists for the following topics:
Crime,
Events, and
Oklahoma.
Elli (
talk |
contribs) 01:10, 6 September 2023 (UTC)
- Second deadliest shooting in the state, seems notable. Sourcing is solid... What do others think?
Oaktree b (
talk) 01:18, 6 September 2023 (UTC)
- I don't see what makes the second-deadliest shooting in a state inherently notable? Six deaths unfortunately isn't particularly unusual in the American context (there were 11 such shootings with at least 6 victims in 2021, and of the four other shootings with exactly six victims, two don't have articles).
Elli (
talk |
contribs) 01:23, 6 September 2023 (UTC)
- Comment:I think if you check state newspapers you'll find things like anniversary coverage and more follow up coverage. I don't have the articles in front of me, but as a regular reader of the state's media coverage I've seen it pop up a few times. I'd have to do a
WP:before of the
Tulsa World and
The Oklahoman's archives before I'd feel comfortable voting.
TulsaPoliticsFan (
talk) 03:19, 6 September 2023 (UTC)
- I added some Trial coverage, but was honestly surprised I didn't find much more. I tried to find a state representative statement or response, but couldn't find any comments from public figures other than mayor Marlon Coleman.
- Also, I didn't find much anniversary coverage either. But there is probably a little more trial coverage than what I added. While technically deadlier than the 2022 Tulsa hospital shooting, the response and sustained coverage appear to be a bit less, at least looking at state sources. TulsaPoliticsFan ( talk) 16:46, 6 September 2023 (UTC)
- Comment:I think if you check state newspapers you'll find things like anniversary coverage and more follow up coverage. I don't have the articles in front of me, but as a regular reader of the state's media coverage I've seen it pop up a few times. I'd have to do a
WP:before of the
Tulsa World and
The Oklahoman's archives before I'd feel comfortable voting.
TulsaPoliticsFan (
talk) 03:19, 6 September 2023 (UTC)
- I don't see what makes the second-deadliest shooting in a state inherently notable? Six deaths unfortunately isn't particularly unusual in the American context (there were 11 such shootings with at least 6 victims in 2021, and of the four other shootings with exactly six victims, two don't have articles).
Elli (
talk |
contribs) 01:23, 6 September 2023 (UTC)
- Second deadliest shooting in the state, seems notable. Sourcing is solid... What do others think?
Oaktree b (
talk) 01:18, 6 September 2023 (UTC)
Weak Keep - This is the very edge of WP:NTEMP. Notability is pretty well established at the time of the incident (NYT, AP, USAT), and regional coverage continues (Fox in 22 and the Phoenix in 23). Unlike other mass shooting events, this seems to have regional repercussions which just barely satisfies WP:NEVENT in my view. If TulsaPoliticsFan can find more regional sources, then I would move to a much stronger Keep !vote, but I think it squeaks by with cited WP:RSs. Cheers, Last1in ( talk) 14:41, 6 September 2023 (UTC)•Weak Delete - TulsaPoliticsFan's research didn't turn out and WP:SIGCOV or WP:SUSTAINED outside already cited, and my own research simply didn't turn out anything for notable WP:EFFECTs of this event. Without that, we're left with WP:RSBREAKING as pointed out by other editors. Cheers, Last1in ( talk) 17:08, 13 September 2023 (UTC)- Delete unless any retrospective sources are found. Sources about this topic are all WP:RSBREAKING sources, either for the initial event or for the subsequent trial, and do not count toward GNG. Thebiguglyalien ( talk) 02:59, 7 September 2023 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Liz Read! Talk! 01:09, 13 September 2023 (UTC)- Keep. Notability doesn't expire.
Cortador (
talk) 09:59, 13 September 2023 (UTC)
- The deletion argument centre on the fact that notability (from an |NEVENT viewpoint) never existed, not that it lost notability over time. Based on TulsaPoliticsFan's dive into regional sources, I am scratching my !vote to keep (see edit above). Cheers, Last1in ( talk) 17:02, 13 September 2023 (UTC)
- Delete: My concern is the lack of WP:SUSTAINED coverage and discussion of the event. Unlike the 2022 Tulsa hospital shooting, this shooting did not generate push for reforms or long term coverage. The death count is high, but it is just a shooting at a home that the reporting indicates happened because the perp is mentally unwell. It generated substantial local coverage (expected from a smaller town), some state-wide coverage (but much less than other shootings I'd call notable), and national headlines immediately after (the strongest case for notability). If there was more state-wide coverage from Oklahoma papers, I'd vote keep, but from my research this doesn't appear that notable outside of Muskogee. TulsaPoliticsFan ( talk) 16:11, 13 September 2023 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Liz Read! Talk! 01:13, 20 September 2023 (UTC)
Delete: NOTNEWS. Six people getting shot is routine these days in the USA. Zero coverage found, 2 yrs later. Oaktree b ( talk) 13:13, 20 September 2023 (UTC)
- Apologies for perhaps not replying in the intended format but I wanted to share my 2 cents on this anyhow. I'm in favor of keeping it. The gravity of this topic may not be meet notability standards relative to American news context, as was pointed out elsewhere here, but from a non-American standpoint (such as mine) it still seems notable enough considering OK is a relatively quiet state and I think (not sure) this is the most severe assault since the 1995 OKC bombing. Kindly reconsider deletion, thank you.
Alfredvanderzwam (
talk) 14:54, 20 September 2023 (UTC)
- This comment on it being the deadliest violent event since the Oklahoma City Bombing appears to be mostly true. The only deadlier event (than the Muscogee shooting, not the bombing) we have an article for since is the 2023 Henryetta killings. On the other hand, I wouldn't call us a quiet state; I mean it is an open carry, or constitutional carry if you wanna be technical, state. Shootings aren't uncommon here. TulsaPoliticsFan ( talk) 17:34, 20 September 2023 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: Final relist. User:Oaktree b can you cancel out your duplicate vote so it's easier to see where things stand?
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Liz Read! Talk! 03:31, 27 September 2023 (UTC)
- Delete per nom, NOTNEWS and SUSTAINED. Sadly, not an uncommon occurrence these days in the United States. Clarityfiend ( talk) 04:21, 27 September 2023 (UTC)
- Keep — A rampage murder of this scale isn't unique, but remains uncommon. The event currently stands at #64 in List of rampage killers (familicides in the United States). On that list there has been ONE such mass murder since this one happened in February 2021, and just eleven since 2010. (Yes there are other kinds of mass killings in the USA as well, but again we're speaking of under ten a year at this scale.) Separately, there has been at least some follow-up coverage marking the anniversary of the killing [1], [2].-- Carwil ( talk) 03:35, 4 October 2023 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.