- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was redirect to Saint Francis Cougars football with the option of merging any encyclopedic content. Vanamonde ( Talk) 06:55, 10 November 2021 (UTC)
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- 1998 Saint Francis Cougars football team ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log)
- (Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
Fails both WP:NSEASONS and WP:GNG. The 1998 Saint Francis Cougars football team was a run-of-the-mill team (2–8 record) playing in the NAIA -- i.e., the fifth and lowest level of college football. The article lacks any sourcing whatsoever, and my searches failed to locate WP:SIGCOV in multiple, reliable, and independent sources. Cbl62 ( talk) 06:30, 2 November 2021 (UTC)
- FWIW, I did find this article regarding the creation of the St. Francis football program. While it constitutes SIGCOV of the program, the article is focused on the creation of the program and does not IMO include sufficient in-depth discussion of the 1998 team itself (players, results, etc.). Cbl62 ( talk) 06:44, 2 November 2021 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of American football-related deletion discussions. Cbl62 ( talk) 06:38, 2 November 2021 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Indiana-related deletion discussions. Spiderone (Talk to Spider) 10:44, 2 November 2021 (UTC)
- comment season articles are kind of a combination of "preference" more than "notability" -- I'm confident that if someone were to dedicate themselves to digging up evidence of WP:GNG for this season, it could probably be done. That doesn't necessarily mean it should be kept because there might be better "merge" targets, such as a combined year article (like 1998-2000) or possibly a conference article for that year. Larger programs tend to warrant season-by-season articles, smaller ones have a different trend. I have no answer at the moment, but I think that answer lies in the drection of editing and merging.-- Paul McDonald ( talk) 13:22, 2 November 2021 (UTC)
- There is broad consensus, and rightly so, that all 130 Division I FBS programs warrant season articles. A good case can also be made for the 128 Division I FCS programs. When we dip below Division I, we have 168 Division II programs and another 250 at the Division III level. Finally, at the bottom, we have 96 NAIA programs. This article concerns an NAIA team that compiled a losing record. Cbl62 ( talk) 15:10, 2 November 2021 (UTC)
- comment With all due respect to the ones who would advocate deletion of this article, I would point out that the material included here represents the first year of this program that was conceived and guided to this day by a person who many believe to be one of the most visible, decorated coaches in the entire history of NAIA football. Over the years, I personally have tried to gather and develop material relating to each of the seasons of Saint Francis football, as much as a part of his legacy , whether or not that is an acceptable/expected presentation for NAIA teams of historical stature and accomplishment. Pages are available for each of the seasons until the recent COVID pandemic has affected even my availability and ability to spend time gathering the desired information. Yes, this article currently is something of a stub. Yes, it relates to a losing season, the one and only losing season to date in the entire history of Saint Francis football. I would invite others to help me find more content that would make this a more appealing, worthy article. I would hope that others would see the significance of this season as the beginning of Coach Donley's legacy that now includes back-to-back national championship seasons at Saint Francis. His run began with this 1998 season. I'll leave it for the "experts" to decide whether this content should stay. -- Jlhcpa ( talk) 15:28, 2 November 2021 (UTC)
- No doubt Donley is a legend, and I have not nominated articles on his championship and near championship seasons. But this particular season doesn’t seem to warrant a stand-alone article. This one is comparable to Donley's early years coaching at Anderson, Georgetown (KY), and California of Pennsylvania -- where 18 of Donley's 19 seasons rightfully don't have season articles. Cbl62 ( talk) 17:34, 2 November 2021 (UTC)
- Comment, though I was really confident I could find something for this, my search on newspapers.com did not reveal much. Besides what Cbl found all I see is lists of game scores that mention this school and this abut their quarterback. I'm leaning towards delete or merge. BeanieFan11 ( talk) 15:29, 2 November 2021 (UTC)
- Delete Sorry, this is a school with fewer than 2,000 students playing other schools mainly with fewer than 2,000 students in the lowest level of collegiate competition. There's hardly notability for these individual seasons, even the ones they won, and they should all be deleted, or at least merged to
Saint_Francis_Cougars#Football. Split a football-specific article sure, but this is excessive and not covered in a significant way.
Reywas92
Talk
21:08, 2 November 2021 (UTC)
- WP:NOTBIGENOUGH is a specific argument to avoid in deletion discussions for many reasons. You'll find historically many colleges had a "small student body" but a notable college football program.-- Paul McDonald ( talk) 22:21, 2 November 2021 (UTC)
- National championship seasons will almost certainly receive the SIGCOV to pass GNG. I have doubts about non-championship seasons at the NAIA level but GNG is the measuring stick, and the topic for today is the 1998 season which I think clearly fails to meet the bar. Cbl62 ( talk) 03:06, 3 November 2021 (UTC)
- There's also a difference between a notable program and needing results pages for each season. My high school had more students than Saint Francis, and probably a lot more game attendance and coverage in the local news. Reywas92 Talk 05:00, 3 November 2021 (UTC)
- Note: I've broken out Saint Francis Cougars football as a new article. It was previously a redirect to Saint Francis Cougars. This is a potential destination for this and any other seasons that are deemed not be notable enough to warrant a stand-alone article. Jweiss11 ( talk) 04:31, 3 November 2021 (UTC)
- Thanks for that, Jweiss11. Redirect or merge could be reasonable outcomes if folks prefer that to deletion. Cbl62 ( talk) 05:09, 3 November 2021 (UTC)
- Redirect to Saint Francis Cougars football. Does not appear to have independent notability but redirects are WP:CHEAP. ~ EDDY ( talk/ contribs)~ 01:40, 4 November 2021 (UTC)
- merge and redirect really seems to be best here. Need a policy reason? ignore all rules because it will make Wikipedia better.-- Paul McDonald ( talk) 18:10, 5 November 2021 (UTC)
- Redirect with a potential merge to Saint Francis Cougars football. Thanks Jweiss for creating that spur. PCN02WPS ( talk | contribs) 18:22, 8 November 2021 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was redirect to Saint Francis Cougars football with the option of merging any encyclopedic content. Vanamonde ( Talk) 06:55, 10 November 2021 (UTC)
[Hide this box] New to Articles for deletion (AfD)? Read these primers!
- 1998 Saint Francis Cougars football team ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log)
- (Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
Fails both WP:NSEASONS and WP:GNG. The 1998 Saint Francis Cougars football team was a run-of-the-mill team (2–8 record) playing in the NAIA -- i.e., the fifth and lowest level of college football. The article lacks any sourcing whatsoever, and my searches failed to locate WP:SIGCOV in multiple, reliable, and independent sources. Cbl62 ( talk) 06:30, 2 November 2021 (UTC)
- FWIW, I did find this article regarding the creation of the St. Francis football program. While it constitutes SIGCOV of the program, the article is focused on the creation of the program and does not IMO include sufficient in-depth discussion of the 1998 team itself (players, results, etc.). Cbl62 ( talk) 06:44, 2 November 2021 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of American football-related deletion discussions. Cbl62 ( talk) 06:38, 2 November 2021 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Indiana-related deletion discussions. Spiderone (Talk to Spider) 10:44, 2 November 2021 (UTC)
- comment season articles are kind of a combination of "preference" more than "notability" -- I'm confident that if someone were to dedicate themselves to digging up evidence of WP:GNG for this season, it could probably be done. That doesn't necessarily mean it should be kept because there might be better "merge" targets, such as a combined year article (like 1998-2000) or possibly a conference article for that year. Larger programs tend to warrant season-by-season articles, smaller ones have a different trend. I have no answer at the moment, but I think that answer lies in the drection of editing and merging.-- Paul McDonald ( talk) 13:22, 2 November 2021 (UTC)
- There is broad consensus, and rightly so, that all 130 Division I FBS programs warrant season articles. A good case can also be made for the 128 Division I FCS programs. When we dip below Division I, we have 168 Division II programs and another 250 at the Division III level. Finally, at the bottom, we have 96 NAIA programs. This article concerns an NAIA team that compiled a losing record. Cbl62 ( talk) 15:10, 2 November 2021 (UTC)
- comment With all due respect to the ones who would advocate deletion of this article, I would point out that the material included here represents the first year of this program that was conceived and guided to this day by a person who many believe to be one of the most visible, decorated coaches in the entire history of NAIA football. Over the years, I personally have tried to gather and develop material relating to each of the seasons of Saint Francis football, as much as a part of his legacy , whether or not that is an acceptable/expected presentation for NAIA teams of historical stature and accomplishment. Pages are available for each of the seasons until the recent COVID pandemic has affected even my availability and ability to spend time gathering the desired information. Yes, this article currently is something of a stub. Yes, it relates to a losing season, the one and only losing season to date in the entire history of Saint Francis football. I would invite others to help me find more content that would make this a more appealing, worthy article. I would hope that others would see the significance of this season as the beginning of Coach Donley's legacy that now includes back-to-back national championship seasons at Saint Francis. His run began with this 1998 season. I'll leave it for the "experts" to decide whether this content should stay. -- Jlhcpa ( talk) 15:28, 2 November 2021 (UTC)
- No doubt Donley is a legend, and I have not nominated articles on his championship and near championship seasons. But this particular season doesn’t seem to warrant a stand-alone article. This one is comparable to Donley's early years coaching at Anderson, Georgetown (KY), and California of Pennsylvania -- where 18 of Donley's 19 seasons rightfully don't have season articles. Cbl62 ( talk) 17:34, 2 November 2021 (UTC)
- Comment, though I was really confident I could find something for this, my search on newspapers.com did not reveal much. Besides what Cbl found all I see is lists of game scores that mention this school and this abut their quarterback. I'm leaning towards delete or merge. BeanieFan11 ( talk) 15:29, 2 November 2021 (UTC)
- Delete Sorry, this is a school with fewer than 2,000 students playing other schools mainly with fewer than 2,000 students in the lowest level of collegiate competition. There's hardly notability for these individual seasons, even the ones they won, and they should all be deleted, or at least merged to
Saint_Francis_Cougars#Football. Split a football-specific article sure, but this is excessive and not covered in a significant way.
Reywas92
Talk
21:08, 2 November 2021 (UTC)
- WP:NOTBIGENOUGH is a specific argument to avoid in deletion discussions for many reasons. You'll find historically many colleges had a "small student body" but a notable college football program.-- Paul McDonald ( talk) 22:21, 2 November 2021 (UTC)
- National championship seasons will almost certainly receive the SIGCOV to pass GNG. I have doubts about non-championship seasons at the NAIA level but GNG is the measuring stick, and the topic for today is the 1998 season which I think clearly fails to meet the bar. Cbl62 ( talk) 03:06, 3 November 2021 (UTC)
- There's also a difference between a notable program and needing results pages for each season. My high school had more students than Saint Francis, and probably a lot more game attendance and coverage in the local news. Reywas92 Talk 05:00, 3 November 2021 (UTC)
- Note: I've broken out Saint Francis Cougars football as a new article. It was previously a redirect to Saint Francis Cougars. This is a potential destination for this and any other seasons that are deemed not be notable enough to warrant a stand-alone article. Jweiss11 ( talk) 04:31, 3 November 2021 (UTC)
- Thanks for that, Jweiss11. Redirect or merge could be reasonable outcomes if folks prefer that to deletion. Cbl62 ( talk) 05:09, 3 November 2021 (UTC)
- Redirect to Saint Francis Cougars football. Does not appear to have independent notability but redirects are WP:CHEAP. ~ EDDY ( talk/ contribs)~ 01:40, 4 November 2021 (UTC)
- merge and redirect really seems to be best here. Need a policy reason? ignore all rules because it will make Wikipedia better.-- Paul McDonald ( talk) 18:10, 5 November 2021 (UTC)
- Redirect with a potential merge to Saint Francis Cougars football. Thanks Jweiss for creating that spur. PCN02WPS ( talk | contribs) 18:22, 8 November 2021 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.