This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | → | Archive 10 |
Good work on Article Requests. Thanks for that. KenWalker | Talk 23:15, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
Hey Skookum1. After thinking of other Sḵwxwú7mesh people to do articles on and fix up. (Like the Joe Capilano article, one person I figured would be good, not only for Sḵwxwú7mesh, but the Indigenous politics through out Canada. I have some written work on Andy Paull. A thesis, the biography, etc. Plus my grandmother is his daughter. My question is: should it be Andy Paull or Andrew Paull? OldManRivers 03:32, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
Hiya,
Was poking around on several talk pages and saw you contributing prolifically, then saw a lot about languages on your user page. If you know anyone who is interested in endangered languages, please be so kind as to point them in the general direction of WP:ENLANG. Thanks for your time! -- Ling.Nut 04:12, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
skookum, in the British Columbia wikiproject and in the Vancouver wiki project, Barnston Island is rated mid importance, yet Anmore is rated low importance. I read both articles and the requirements for the importance ratings, and I fail to see what makes Barnston Island substantially more important to the province than anmore. What accounts for this difference? TotallyTempo 22:23, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
I hope those quibbles aren't with anything I said. =) -- JGGardiner 19:58, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
Have you come across James McMillan (fur trader) KenWalker | Talk 07:13, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
Thanks for adding to the photo caption. Yes, Sinclair Centre should be a definite addition. Glad Hastings was a 'Keep', although it seemed the deletionists got their words in before the decision was rendered. Need sources, my butt... I was raised on Hastings and anyone who knows anything about Vancouver knows it belongs. Well anyway, off to the Herzog photo exhibit. See ya.-- Keefer4 20:55, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
I should add to what I said that it seems quite obvious to me that DEYS is not paid by some office for his work. I don't want to detail just how obvious it is because I am not into "outing" editors and I will show him some civility. Who knows, maybe there will be a Hollywood ending and I'll get a little in return. =) -- JGGardiner 09:09, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
thought you wouldn't mind if your talk page was archived again. Anyway, I started a sandbox page for ideas on expanding the buildings category for Vancouver, either for their architectural signicance, or historical significance. Feel free to stop by, make additions, comments, jokes, or whatever. Or even sources for more obscure ones. I will draw on the requested articles list and your requests thereon, but I wanted to try and map it out a little before hand. What's there now is just what I dumped from the top of my head, but I want to think it through a bit better. My thinking is that there should be 2 or more general articles, and then daughter articles for the more significant ones. That way, it'd be more user-friendly, and could accomodate buildings that might have a hard time standing on their own notability-wise. User:Bobanny/historical buildings I saw your comment to Ken above about bailing, and I'm almost there myself, so can't say I'll follow through. I've never thought of WikiPedia as an addiction, but in a way, it gives that feeling of never being satisfied because no matter what you do, it's never even close to being something you can check off on your to-do list, and the list just grows. Okay, it's late and I'm starting to ramble, ciao. Bobanny 09:33, 4 February 2007 (UTC) PS: I'll leave a message for Keefer, but feel free to point anyone else who might be interested to my buildings page. Bobanny 09:35, 4 February 2007 (UTC)
Hello again, Skookum. I saw your article on List of ghost towns in British Columbia. Very interesting. I didn’t know there were so many ghost towns in BC! My only criticism of the article is that the table is awfully wide. With so many columns, it squeezes the data more than one might like. I have proposed a couple of alternative solutions on a temp page here. Feel free to use it or not at your discretion. ● DanMS 21:19, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
Need a suggestion here. I'm not sure what wikipedia policy is, but let me know what you think. Let me know on the talk page. Talk:Potlatch#Further_Reading_List OldManRivers 22:41, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
Gosh Skookum, I don't know what to say to you. You're definitely one of the most knowledgeable editors that I've come across here and I doubt that anyone on WP knows more about BC history than you do. I know that you've created tons of content, rescued and created articles that simply wouldn't be here otherwise. It feels funny giving advice about WP to someone who has many times the number of edits that I do. But I have to say something. You really have to mind the civility. Wikipedia is really a community as much as anything else and how you interact with everyone is as important as the content you have to add. Like I said it feels funny especially because you know exactly what I'm talking about and you've said it yourself. I don't want to see anyone not editing here when they could be contributing, especially as much as you have. -- JGGardiner 09:38, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
I know what you mean about an off-wiki life. My contributions here have been pretty irregular since last summer. I’d hate to lose any Wikipedia work but if anyone has something more important to do in real life, they probably should.
I understand that it has been frustrating dealing with DEYS. I know that I have had to edit a few posts before I submitted them. But I think that I have managed to be direct without crossing any lines. DEYS himself will have to learn the rules or he won’t last as a Wikipedian. I don’t think that he works for a PR agency like your friend rascalpatrol. Although some of his early edits were of the subject-likes-puppies variety. I didn't look very deeply. Like I said, I don't like to "out" editors, you know. -- JGGardiner 07:52, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
Thought I would ask if there is a standard for the ethno articles. Like, "History, Culture, Society, Important Figures." or anything else like that. Then, if there is something like that, is there a standard for the Indian Act band council government pages. Want to work on a few Indigenous articles, but I'm not sure what I should write on first. Thanks OldManRivers 00:00, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
It was intentional. But not because of Bornmann.
Actually I'd forgotten that Bronmann was called that. Now of course I wish that I had been clever enough to think of that. -- JGGardiner 21:51, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
Thanks for uploading Image:Wagonrd2a.gif. Wikipedia gets thousands of images uploaded every day, and in order to verify that the images can be legally used on Wikipedia, the source and copyright status must be indicated. Images need to have an image tag applied to the image description page indicating the copyright status of the image. This uniform and easy-to-understand method of indicating the license status allows potential re-users of the images to know what they are allowed to do with the images.
For more information on using images, see the following pages:
This is an automated notice by OrphanBot. If you need help on selecting a tag to use, or in adding the tag to the image description, feel free to post a message at Wikipedia:Media copyright questions. 00:11, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
The Cascade range article, for example, is part of the Cascade range category. The Cascade range category is and should be a member of all the categories you mentioned. I should have indicated I was 'deleting double level categories'. I saw/see no purpose in having both the article and ts same named category as members of another category. Thanks Hmains 17:27, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
Well done on the reversion. I was tempted to do it myself last night but didn't get around to it. I have picked up a couple of history books from the library that deal with these events, interesting stuff. I also have a couple on the coastal shipping that I want to put into an article that will fit nicely with your ship lists. I see that the automatic archiving on the project talk page is working now. I have it on my talk page as well. Seems like a good way to go. Cheers -- KenWalker | Talk 21:43, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
Thank you for doing the necessary removal of the colonial governors and creating their own article. Unfortunately, your editorial activity seems to inadvertently resulted in the loss of the terms. Could you reinsert them somehow when you get the chance? Much thanks. Fishhead64 08:06, 25 February 2007 (UTC)
Minisandboxing here to gain access to template for revision: {{ Canadian viceroys}} Skookum1 19:48, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
Hi, how's it goin? Please see Talk: Stewart Phillip, seems to be a bit snarky around there. I left a note for oldmanrivers sayin I'd let ya know. Later.-- Keefer4 09:21, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
I understand your concern, which I think is valid, although I'm not sure I agree. At any rate, until the separate people article is written from the First Nation article, it makes sense to include them both on the same page. - TheMightyQuill 07:06, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
The situation is muddled because many band governments have adopted the term "First Nation" or "Nation" to replace Indian Band; others stick with Indian Band but are the same thing. And it varies from reserve to reserve, even within nations, as to what the usage is; Squamish Nation to Oldmanrivers, a Squamish person/ Skwxwu7mesh means something imposed on his people, who are, by his chosen and apparently the official usage, Skwxwu7mesh, but in Mt Currie while Lil'wat Nation is used synonymously with the Mount Currie Indian Band, and also synymous with the Lower St'at'imc (well, including In-SHUCK-ch in that terminology; Nequatque are Upper St'at'imc), "Lil'wat Nation" is also the name used by the more radical element in Mt Currie's people, who act above and outside the band government, often in defiance and condemnation of it (as with the Cayoosh Ski Resort debate). In some cases there is absolute synonymy between the band government and the term First Nation; in other cases it's more political in tone, one way or the other. There's also reserves like Douglas Lake First Nation, aka the Upper Nicola Indian Band, who are a mix of Spaxomin (the local Syilx group) and Scw'exmx (the local Nlaka'pamux group), though mostly Spaxomin (usually Spahomin in English). The Shackan Indian Band's people are the Sxe'xn'x (a subgroup of or allied group to the Scw'exmx) and even though it might use Shackan First Nation the fact is that Shackan is an anglicization and Sxe'xn'x is the preferred form; as with Xwemelch'stn vs the usual older English Homulchesan. I know it's a problem with terminology: First Nations means ethnicity as well as governments; so the convention is that articles with "First Nation" or "Nation" in the title, unless pre-existing as ethno articles (as with some US ones) should be government articles, and the ethnicity per se be dealt with in the stand-alone name form, even being a First Nation in the cultural sense, rather than in a political-organization sense. The reason has to do with multi-ethnic reserves and also multi-ethnic tribal councils, and also cultural preferences about the articles these people are about. And included in the cultural preferences are terminologies such as the distinction between Llenlleney'ten and High Bar First Nation, or between Skwxwu7mesh and Squamish Nation. I guess I'll get around to drawing up that table of who fits with which article and which ethnic group and which tribal council(s), although more as a talkpage resource/refereence than conceivably as an article, although it might better help organize List of First Nations in British Columbia - the opening text of which I'm going to try to adjust to deal with some of the different definitions/usages, and undoing having List of First Nations governments in British Columbia refer to First Nations in British Columbia or List of First Nations in British Columbia (one of those refers to the other, I'm sure); the latter will be for the ethnicity articles, the governments list for the government ones; subtle distinction to non-First Nations people(s), but a highly important one for First Nations people(s) themselves, and that should be respected; that's also how it evolved at WikiProject indigenous peoples of North America; see its "articles" sub-talkpage for the various categories and, somewhere in there, the discussion which established the article/structure-hierarchy paradigm at play, the why of it all. Confusing, cumbersome, true, but occasionally the only way to sort things out. First Nations in the traditional sense are ethnic and social entities; they are not synonymous with band governments; nor is the band government synonymous with the community. Certainly not; it's state vs nation as a dichotomy, complicated into trichotomy and more because of the Indian Act regimes, which are only sometimes identical with traditional bodies/sociopolitical structure (e.g. Nuxalk from what I understan, and sometimes the use of "Nation" or "First Nation" in something's title is an assumed and not politically-supported form within the community's own cultural definitions, as with Skwxwu7mesh- Squamish Nation and any number of other examples I could trot out. Skookum1 09:03, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
Okay, I'll admit that people isn't the ideal term, but government isn't either. As we've discussed before, a First Nation is also a people, and a place, not just a government, and all your articles suggest otherwise. I have consistently disagreed with "what has been explained to me" so there is certainly no consensus.
I don't think the people and the government need to be equated, but Hungary is neither just a government, nor just a people either. The main page links to culture of Hungary, hungarian people, geography, language AND government. Why can't we do the same with the First Nations articles? And smaller countries that don't have full Culture of X, People of X and Geography of X combine all that information in the main country site. Your current plan seems to be to have articles on Government of Hungary, Hungarian people, Hungarian language, but no Hungary. I think that's crazy.
I'm glad you created Ulkatchot’en, but I suspect you're not going to create a complete article for every tiny nation's culture in BC, at least not any time soon. My suggestion is that, until the content is sufficient to create two decent articles, we don't create a shitty empty stub for every government, reserve, and people in the country. I'm well aware that there are differences, but I'm also aware that you don't actually know what they are. =) - TheMightyQuill 19:30, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
Yes, yet you've left Carey Price included in the Ulkatcho First Nation article. My point is that you may consider the Ulkatcho Band Council a puppet regime, but it doesn't make sense to call the Ulkatcho First Nation a puppet regime, since it is equally a people and a place. I don't know how you can disagree that First Nation means place, when all the First Nations reserves I've ever been to have big signs that say "Welcome to XXX First Nation." If you want to limit something to government, then create XXX Band Council articles, because government articles don't include historic territory or modern land ownership either. Government articles don't include information on the economy, or on private businesses run on the land controlled by that government. Nor are treaty claims limited to what is done by the Band Council or Tribal council, since there is obvious disagreement within most nations as to what should be done. Again, I'll retract my edits suggesting each First Nation is a people, it's not a people, but it's not a government either, it's a nation. There's no other reasonable synonym for nation. I agree that First Nations are different that other major nation states, but that is the closest comparison. - TheMightyQuill 20:03, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
Fine, he can be removed from that article, then, which was the only one at the time (since I created it because of him, in fact). The "First Nation" terminology has to be defined in each and every case; and the ethnological meaning should be stated, but it is IMPORTANT to distinguish between the government and the ethnicity/people. These aren't my biases, but inbuilt realities from First Nations' own cultural-political consciousness. The intro sentence can run something like "the XXX First Nation is the name of a First Nations government etc. It can also refer to the XXX people themselves see "XXX". This is what I meant about it being something like a disambig page; there ARE distinct meanings; but the article-title convention is to have "Nation/First Nation" for the government articles, and without those designations for the othe articles, albeit stating in each case that "First Nation" has variable meanings, and in a certain context is the official name of the band government/Indian Act proxy, but also refers to the ethnicity/group as a whole in a very distinct and nowhere-near-synonymous sense. I'll refer you AGAIN to the Skwxwu7mesh/ Squamish Nation comparison (see those talkpages, esp. OldManRivers' comments). We can't use all three meanings of "nation" here, as you're suggesting in your last bit; that's fudging; they have to be disambig'd or otherwise clearly stated as different contexts/usages. Skookum1 20:11, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
Here's some examples of the confusion:
I've begun List of First Nations governments in British Columbia, which formerly was rediret to First Nations in British Columbia. IMO there should also be List of Tribal Councils in British Columbia, with the first-named being for individual band governments only. Skookum1 21:49, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
I agree it's complex and, more importantly, that each case is different. But if I can't pretend that First Nation automatically at once, you can't pretend it DOESN'T when in some cases (such as Ulkatcho First Nation perhaps) it does. Nation means nation. Government may be a part of it, but the Sto:lo Nation might well exist whether or not there was a Tribal Council. It's confusing, because the Tribal Council refers to itself as "Sto:lo Nation" even though it doesn't include all Sto:lo peoples, and it isn't even negotiating the land claims of all of its official member nations. But the term "council" denotes government, nation is something different. Read nation: A nation is a group of humans who assume that they share a common identity, and share a common language, religion, ideology, culture, and/or history. They are usually assumed to have a common origin, in the sense of ancestry, parentage or descent. AND The term nation is often used as a synonym for ethnic group (sometimes "ethnos"), but although ethnicity is now one of the most important aspects of cultural or social identity for the members of most nations, people with the same ethnic origin may live in different nation-states and be treated as members of separate nations for that reason. So nation is not the same as ethnicity either. - TheMightyQuill 23:24, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
I'm not sure I understand your sarcasm. It's understood that Canada is a nation state, but some countries like Dominican Republic, Czech Republic, United States of America, United Arab Emirates do contain details in their titles that specifically refer to their form of nationhood. - TheMightyQuill 06:53, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
Thing is they nearly all use Nation or First Nation in their government titles, and have alternate names as either an Indian Band or a Tribal Council, depending on which. This is why the title I used for [[tl|Kwakwaka'wakw peoples}} - which can eventually include documented but extinct groups, some of which never came into being as bands, or as in the Mowachaht-Muchalaht case and Danaxdaxw-Awaetatla are a union of two different ethnographic groups. Small-n nation, fine, but the capitalized form has been "co-opted" by Band Governments while at the same time having an ethnographic context; Nisga'a Nation, Gitxsan Nation, St'at'imc Nation, Sto:lo Nation are governments for the nation of the Nisga'a, the nation of the Gitxsan, and particular groups of the nations of St'at'imc and Fraser River Salish (it may be that Kwayquitlams and Kwantlens etc may be occasionally, or inappropriately, referred to as Sto:lo, but the Chehalis never are. Anyway, the point is that the "First Nation" title/designation is nearly always an option for "Indian Band" and they're generally used interchangeable; Seton Lake Indian Band, Seton Lake First Nation. But their nation-as-nation grouping is St'at'imc, although the particular people are Tsalalh'mc and they, too, are a separate First Nation within the larger St'at'imc Nation, which again is not the same thing as the nation of the St'at'imc. There are parallel examples all across the province; and it's nearly an ironclad rule about "Alkali Lake First Nation" and "Alkali Lake Indian Band"; in most cases of newly-created articles I went with the most recent incarnation online in various directories, i.e. as to whether Indian Band or First Nation, but at some time or other, and probably simultaneously on occasion, they've used the other one of whichever they're listed as now. Separating all that out from "First Nations" in an ethnographic sense is the context of what's at debate here; the existing convention, which granted *I* established (very much in response to OldManRivers' objections to Squamish Nation as an imposed and artificial name that is a construct supplanted on the Skxwxwu7mesh Uxwuimixw, which would be the name of a Skwxwu7mesh state, as Nisga'a Lisims if of the Nisga'a state), is to respect the band governments' desire to be called First Nations, and that of tribal councils to be called Nations, e.g. Okanagan Nation Alliance, which does include all Okanagans, even the American group, whereas Nlaka'pamux Nation Tribal Council and Sto:lo Nation etc do NOT include all their respective "nations" (using the quotes to emphasize lower-case n, not to degrade that meaning, the ethnograhpic one, only to specify it). Skookum1 02:34, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
I'm all for a dab line, or mini-disambigs, and I've been toying with the syntax; I find the wording on Talk:Squamish Nation and its counterpart to be a bit POV, but also to the point. The basics are "this page is for the government of the xxx. For an article on their history and culture see etc.", and vice-versa, with the full explanation of the different meanings in the First Nations and First Nations in British Columbia articles/intros. Skookum1 03:14, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
Okay, I agree with Keefer that all this categorization is dehumanizing at best and neo-colonial at worst. Let me pitch this another way. What if an XXX Nation page acts as a sort of disambiguation page which links to
Rather than being a simple list of links to these other related articles, the XXX Nation could include a summary of these other articles. IF these articles do not yet exist, the summary could remain on the XXX Nation page until the individual article are created, thus avoiding 4 pages with two sentences or a bunch of empty subsections. Any problems with this? This avoids confining the ethnicity to just the government's definition, or from restricting the definition of nation to just government and ignoring the population and territory. Any takers? - TheMightyQuill 07:09, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
If you want to get really awful about it. The first example would work for tribal affilications, inter-tribal organizations, and etc, such as " Kwagiutl District Council". As for termenology, no nation, Nation, First Nations, first nations AFTER the name of the people. It's a Anglo-Canadian POV because Anglo-Canadians put that term on these Indigenous peoples. OldManRivers 03:44, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
I'm quickly being convinced of your organization plan, and especially because Oldmanrivers' template below looks good. I still retain my complaint that XXX First Nation is not just a government, as it also refers, in common usage, to the territory. So I guess my main problem is the wording "XXX First Nation is a government..." when it's a nation not a government. Can we find some solution to that? - TheMightyQuill 22:09, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
Skookum, my friend, you don't need to write a whole novel just to tell me that territories overlap and linguistic divisions are problematic, especially when it's something I already know. =) I also don't see why you keep bringing up tribal councils, since we're not talking about tribal councils, or why you finish by suggesting gov't articles should be separate from ethnic articles, when I've already agreed to this.
The point is this: I know from experience, and you seem willing to concede, that "XXX First Nation" is used as an indication of place as well as a title for government. It's really irrelevant whether it is used to describe simply reserve lands or traditional territory, because my argument is that it is incorrect to begin every article with "XXX First Nation is a government" when we both know it also indicates, in some way, a place. -
TheMightyQuill 23:22, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
How can you be emphatic, when you know what I'm saying is true. You know you've seen signs that say "Welcome to XXX First Nation." I have friends that talk about "life at Wet'suwet'en First Nation" - AT denotes place. It's common usage. Just because you don't believe it should be used this way, or is somehow insufficient doesn't change the fact that it IS used this way BY the people who actually live there. I've never been to Squamish First Nation, nor do I know any Skwxwu7mesh people, so I can't speak to that. Maybe it's different there, but that doesn't solve the problem. - TheMightyQuill 00:56, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
It's similar, except there is also the matter of Coast Salish and Kwakwaka'wakw and others. You probably know this, but what I'm saying does not apply to all Indigenous people in BC, nor is what you are saying
But for naming titles to seperate from the articles like Skwxwu7mesh and Squamish Nation, we need to have all the Indigenous people in BC have the names of their people, in their spelling. There are 198 indian band in BC, but there is not that many Indigenous groups ( Skwxwu7mesh, Tsiel-waututh, Namgis, WASNEC, Ahousaht, Heiltsuk and many more, WITHOUT anything after that (see Skwxwu7mesh). THEN, just like Skwxwu7mesh, we had links and talk about the tribal governments. I know there are a lot of pages that have no been created yet, but hey, something to work on. THEN, we can do a page Indigenous peoples of the Pacific Northwest Coast, and talking about all the major groups with brief bio's and links to all the groups from the Northwest Coast. Similar pages can be made for other groups. As for the land thing, it's kind of weird. There are places like [[Haida Gwaii], but it's not similar around BC right. We never had a name for our territory. It was just Skwxwu7mesh temixw, but that's reall incorrect and only been used recently for land claims and dealing with the government. (temixw = land. uxwumixw = village). So, to put it simply, there is no Canada, in the name of a massive territory. There Canada the nation, and Canadians the people, but European does not translate well over to many Indigenous languages. (SIDE NOTE) A friend who's getting his PhD at UBC told me about the main difference. I wanted to mention because it's relevant to this discussion. He said, European languages are noun based, where many Indigenous languages from this area are verb based. Place names, terminology, etc, vs. action words, things people do, etc. No wonder you all want terms for Indigenous peoples places, people, things, but it simply and probably doesn't exist. OldManRivers 10:17, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
I know we talked about this breifly, but I cannot remember what we came up with. I'm trying to think of a good template for the First Nation's pages, and the ethnic/cultural pages. I created pre-contact and post-contact to the Skwxwu7mesh page, which would probably be best since a lot of traditions still carry on (although history books would have you belief we're all dead). I came up with:
For culture and ethnic pages. (Examples being Haida, Skwxwu7mesh, Sto'lo, Kwakwaka'wakw)
For Indian act political affiliation (Examples being any __________ First Nation)
I wanted to add to this list for some constancy among the pages. There are also the actual government institutions such as Nuu-chah-nulth Tribal Council, and other Tribal Councils or tribal affiliations, which are political institutions representing a varying degree of native peoples from different groups, from different blah blah blah.
Anything else we should add? Or a place to talk about this with more people. I get the notion at Project Indigenous Peoples of North America, there isn't many people that understand BC clearly, but anywhere for forum on this would be great. (Still learning how to navigate wikipedia.) Thanks for any help OldManRivers 04:09, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
What definition of Nation are you using here? This article has "people articles" like Nlaka'pamux and Kwakwaka'wakw listed as nations (not to mention Halkomelem language). Even weirder, Carcross/Tagish First Nation is listed as being from the Dene Nation, although they are Tagish and Tlingit. Although those are linguistically part of the Na-Dené languages, we know linguistic categories are bogus, and Carcross/Tagish aren't to my knowledge, even part of the Dene Nation Tribal council. - TheMightyQuill 01:16, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
You mean "nation" in the table header? That was my attempt to address your concerns; in the title "First Nations governments" is obvious enough; "Ethnicity"? It's a sliding scale; the Tsalalh'mc are a nation within the St'at'imc Nation (actually within the Lc'lc'mc, the Lakes Lillooet, which until mid-19th Century was a separate identity within the St'at'imc; mind you so, still, are Cayoose Creek, Lillooet and Bridge River Bands i.e. separate identities, within the "metropolitan Lillooet" native community). If Carcross/Tagish is in that way it was my mistake; I was thinking of the Gwi'chin and Han and other Yukon peoples, who are in the Dene group (as are, by their own determination, the Tshilqot'in and Dakelh and other Athapaskans in BC). If there are mistakes in who belongs where, by all means fix them; I was copy-pasting at high speed, transferring link-names from other pages, and there are doubtless mistakes here and there; I'd put Union Bar in Nlaka'pamux originally, but it's non-Sto:lo Halqemeylem-speaking (that is to say, Fraser River Coast Salish or Fraser River Salish). As to the labelling of the table header, if you have something better to put in place of "nation" in that field (Kwakwaka'wakw, Haida, Tsilhqot'in, Secwepemc, not local ethno-nations like Esketemc or Tsalalh'mc or Spaxomin, who belong in the other column). I'm thinking the way to deal with the alternate names is to ditch that column and make multiple entries, so that the entire thing is sortable; also "Language 1" and "Language 2" so those are also sortable. I may also have town/locations wrong, or in some cases didn't bother (e.g. 'Namgis because I couldn't remember if it's Port Hardy, Port McNeill, Sayward, or what). Skookum1 02:29, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
I'd already made {{ Kwakwaka'wakw peoples}} and {{ Nuu-chah-nulth-aht peoples}} but just tried a different, perhaps better, title: {{ Peoples of the Secwepemc Nation}}. A similar retitling of the governments ones, currently {{ Kwakwaka'wakw First Nations}} could be {{ Governments of the Kwakwaka'wakw Nation}}. Except that "Kwakwaka'wakw Nation" is never (usually) put that way, and IIRC has political overtones (as being an organizational name separate from the Laich-kwil-tach-Comox-Kwagyulh formation of the Kwakiutl District Council; well, which doesn't include the Kwagyulh/Kwakiutl First Nation any more (the Fort Rupert Band). Maybe {{ Governments of the St'at'imc people}} might be a better format; because in that case, as elsewhere, "St'at'imc Nation means a particular tribal council, or can (also Nlaka'pamux Nation, Kwakiutl Nation, Shuswap Nation, just for starters). Anyway, I think the new title(s) might work better, and be less confusing, and also address the concept of ethnolinguistic nations spanning several smaller nation-groups. Skookum1 03:15, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
Just out of curiousity, how many individual First Nations are there in BC? We're going to create a government page for each, plus at least one "people" page for each one, plus tribal councils, plus larger cultural "people/nation" pages for each group (like St'at'imc). That's a lot of work to do. TheMightyQuill 01:19, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
Hi, Snookum... you recently put Steveston, British Columbia and some communities in Kamloops under the category Category:Communities within district municipalities in British Columbia. Technically, Richmond (where Steveston is) and Kamloops are both cities, not districts. I created a new category, Category:Communities within cities in British Columbia, to differentiate between the two, so that should probably be used in the future. Thanks! -→ Buchanan-Hermit™/ ?! 22:31, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
Yeah, I was thinking that category needed creation; not so important for towns and villages I guess. Also Category:First Nations communities in British Columbia strkes me as needed, perhaps as a retitling of Category:First Nations reserves in British Columbia; as not all native communities are on-reserve; and various reserves have multiple communities within them; and there are towns that get an "FN" template but are still non-FN towns (e.g. Hazelton, Lillooet); Category:First Nations communities in British Columbia also helps deal with stuff like Camchin and Xwemelch'tsn, which are traditional community names, and not reserves per se, although they are on, or partly on in Camchin's case, reserve land. Actual articles on reserves per se are few and far between, and the articles in the cat at present are largely titled as towns, not as, e.g. " Shalalth, British Columbia" instead of Slosh Indian Reserve No. 1 (and No. 1a, 2 etc.). For most situations now I'm adding both the FN reserves cat as well as the unincorporated settlements cat (unless there's an incorporation, as at Lillooet) Skookum1 22:37, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
Also, please note Delta, British Columbia is a district municipality, not a city. (Although it's called the "Corporation of Delta," for whatever reason.) :) -→ Buchanan-Hermit™/ ?! 23:59, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
Hi noticed all the hard categorization work you've been doing today. Noticed a redlink to Hydroelectric development in this one, tried to find actual category but couldn't.. bot will probably kill it, but just thought I'd let ya know. On that topic, I vaguely remember some type of hydro project being ballyhooed around for the area, but couldn't find anything on it currently. I don't think it would take place in the village, and should perhaps be associated with Kispiox River if needed when that entity comes into existence. Anyway, good to see better categories being applied up there (and everywhere)...Later.-- Keefer4 22:39, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
This doesn't strike me as a community at all, but more something some local chamber of commerce/tourism folks came up with to market an area, and it's mentioned on some tourist web sites. Our friend KenWalker added it, so perhaps I'll take its future up with him.-- Keefer4 00:12, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
Not that it's high priority, but... I'm tired of seeing it unresolved. Whatcha think?-- Keefer4 10:44, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
Wow, that article is atrocious. I'm making that my biggest priority right now, but I could use some help with it. See all the comments I put on the Talk:Coast_Salish. OldManRivers 05:28, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
Hey, what's your criticism of Kwantlen & Katzie being Sto:lo? You haven't put anything on either talk page. - TheMightyQuill 09:14, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
Well, I can't be everywhere at once; my "read" on the Sto:lo thing is from the Sto:lo website; I used to have the Sto:lo Historical Atlas which might have provided some further direction on this issue, but that was written/funded by the Sto:lo Nation so may not reflect what the Kwantlens, Katzies, Chehalis etc have to say about themselves. The only thing to do is write and ask, I suppose; they may be perfectly happen with Sto:lo, or ditto with a "people" suffix such as Sto:lo'em or whatever the proper Halqemeylem may be. The Sto:lo site only lists certain bands/peoples, i.e. their own members; the Katzies I can get a direct answer from someone, I hope, who knows them well and writes on indigenous and fishery issues ( Terry Glavin, who's a friend). I'll have to look at the Sto:lo list again; there's a few other isolates too - the Yale band, I think, but maybe they're already there. Point is that "people of the (Fraser) river" is fine (with the assumption that only the lower Fraser River is the context, the context being given by a Halqemeylem wording/name presumably). The Musqueam and Tsawwassen linguistically fall into the Georgia Strait group. Skookum1 21:31, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
Was just beginning to compile a list of hotels, and came upon one that had an article already created last October that wasn't really too much to do with the hotel itself thus far...-- Keefer4 06:51, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
If you can recommend a more reliable source of mainstream news on BC, I'm all ears. - TheMightyQuill 09:05, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
You have asked for help on fixing this template. What do you want the template to look and functions like? Can you give a description? AQu01rius ( User Talk) 07:17, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
I know it's very loose to put Indigenous for all the articles for the people of the North West Coast in all the articles relating to the Pscific Northwest Coast. I figure this way we can differentiate between all the other Indigenous groups, and although the [[[Indigenous peoples of the Pacific Northwest Coast]] are still very diverse, it would be a good place for people to become familiar with the different, then we can talk about all the major cultural regions ( Kwakwaka'wakw, Coast Salish, Haida, etc.) with directions to all the people, and talk about all different peoples. It would introduce people to all the Indigenous people. It's not Aboriginal because were not Metis or Inuit, and it would be a a good way to organize everything with the names of all the nations. I would also like to add maps of all the different nations, and here we can have a massive map of all the different nations. What do you think? You down for it? OldManRivers 04:27, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
There's already Category:Indigenous languages of the North American Northwest Coast I think, and Category:Indigenous languages of the North American Plateau so should probably follow the same format; whichever it should probably be Indigenous peoples of the Pacific Northwest Coast, or better yet Indigenous peoples of the North American Northwest Coast and Indigenous peoples of the North American Plateau]]; or would you hold for separate culture-regions for the main article, i.e. Coast and Interior (the paradigm applies south of the line, too, I know). Skookum1 04:32, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
Wikipedia style/title-content guidelines; ideally Indigenous peoples of the Pacific Northwest Coast of North America is more like it, really, though unwieldy. The North American Northwest Coast seems like a compromise phrasing but I wasn't around when the cats were spawned; the North American Plateau is also rather vague; ethnologists usually distinguish the Northwest Plateau in the same way the Northwest Coast; but it's what there already. It doesn't have to be mirrored, although this makes me wonder if there's regional people categories already in the same way there's regional language categories; I'll look around the Indigenous Wikiproject; but I'm pretty sure the people categories all fall under the First Nations hierarchy anyway; "Pacific Northwest" is a standard term, so is "Northwest Coast", and to specify where the combinaton Pacific Northwest Coast seems clearest (don't forget there's a "northwest coast" off the Bering Sea, too, ahd the Beaufort even...); Northwest Plateau could do for the Interior although in the US they tend to use Pacific Northwest to also include Idaho and Montana, but I daresay people in the Interior of BC don't consider themselves exactly Pacific Northwest; vs where on the Coast it's perfectly obvious that it iis. But "be bold" and use your preferred title; I see your point about Coast vs Interior and had of course opined about it, but I should add that the Interior peoples, or some of them, also potlatched, though with the elaborate ceremonials and complicated politics of the Coast; a potlatch was simply a gift-feast and AFAIK not associated with obtaining rank or status or whatever you wish to explain about coastal potlatching; it was about, if anything, loyalty and generosity. Hunter Jack was famous for his, and Nicola I believe also, and his son and grandson, both named Chilliheetza; but obviously the social/cultural context of the Interior potlatch is different, and I think more internal to bands than between them (say, in the Lillooet/St'at'imc country I think); they simply applied the term from Chinook, as it had come also to be used in English, without importing the whole culture of potlatching which I know you were talking about. Treaties and intertribal gatherings were usually commemorated by "hiyus", which meant "gatherings" (long form hiyu kunamoxt - "many together") and typically had horseraces, dancing, slahal etc several days long. (as in Chiwid, but in many other sources); potlatches seem to have been rarer in what I've read, but I have seen mention; and there's spill-over with coastal cultures with the Wet'suwet'en because of their longstanding interaction with the Gitxsan, don't forget (as though not coastal the Gitxsan are part of the Coast cultural sphere). Anyway, fire away with your article; if some admin somewhere is unhappy with the title you choose everything can be shifted around; try to remember the necessasry cats and also the talkpage teampltes {{ NorthAmNative}} and {{ BCproject}} or whatever rating (we're not supposed to rate our own articles, but...). Skookum1 06:40, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
Ah, I see. Okay. I wouldn't include the Plateau, because I'm thinking it's pretty much all nations who did potlatching. The categories are good, but maybe and article?
OldManRivers
Finally got some balls and made the article. Probably going to get something about citations, but I did figure out how to do citations (yay!). You probably have a lot more books you can cite then I do at the moment. My grandmother is giving me a copy of Conversations of Khatsahlano one day, but I think you have more books on Vancouver that mention him. I also made a redirect from August Jack as that might come up also. If you know of any pages we could had this link to. (Such as Kitsilano, etc.) that would be great. OldManRivers 22:18, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
OldManRivers 07:09, 11 March 2007 (UTC)As me and my friends say, it's not racism, it's xenophobia. OldManRivers 07:09, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
Yeah, this is a big issue with recording oral histories, including whether a written history can adequately express what is has been handed down orally. As well, there is the question of who has the right to tell certain stories. I saw Neal McLeod] speak once about the North West Resistance (or "the troubles" as he called them), and he insisted he could give further explanation for the killings of certain Indian Agents, but that the stories were not his to tell, the the families involved had decided not to tell those stories publicly, at least not yet. This kind of respect for privacy isn't often as respected in the world of academia or journalism, and makes adaptation into a medium like wikipedia difficult at best. Perhaps that's part of the reason the north west resistance article is so totally POV. In the mean time, good work on the a.j. khatsahlano page. It's nice that the hotel had the decency to ask permission to use his name. - TheMightyQuill 22:57, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
I know eh. - OldManRivers 07:09, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
Wow, okay lots to respond to here.
First off glad to see someone care enough to take the interest.
Specifics:
Colony also has the sense of cultural, and not only political, continuity. For example the Greek colonies in Italy were never ruled by kings back in Arcadia but by new ones, appointed just for that task. Same for Norse in NA. They were cultural colonies. The world colonies in even used for the ethnic block Settlements of the prairies. As for the word Viking, I realize it's more of an occupation than a ethnic group, but I figured it was more common. I suppose strict correctness is better in this case.
I simply added the Portuguese and Scottish ones because we already have articles about them. I don't particularly see them as being better or worse than Spanish claims on the Pacific. That's really a discussion for the whole of WP. How long does a colony have to exist to get an article? Because I figure once they've got an article they're fair game for cat and templates. Meanwhile for Terre Neuve we actually have a list of governors sent out for that one, so there was no way I was going to ignore that. If we have that kind of documentary evidence for the Russians in the pacific, then that's great. I know I just read yesterday about the Spanish actually sending out some officials to Nootka Sound, so that should be mentioned somewhere in WP, if not in the template.
There are way too many districts to include them all. Certainly not on a template of this scope, they could get their own for pete's sake. Kevlar67 01:48, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
No I hadn't added the Selkirk and Red River Colonies. I suppose they would qualify as well as the Norse would. I agree about the Spanish. I remember reading that Vancouver Island was once called Vancouver and Quadra's Island after the Spanish explorer and governor. Problem is we don't have an article about the colonies they created. Perhaps we should. In fact, I know we should. Same goes for the Russians. Although it would be hard to separate that information from the history of Alaska. Perhaps just listing Alaska would be a solution. The North-Western Territory (North-Western) was pre-Confed, it roughly referred to everything in the Arctic drainage basin. It was bought from the HBC by at the same time as Rupert's Land. Together the NWernT and RL became Canada's NWT. As for the districts in what latter became BC, I guess they were colonies of a sort too. District didn’t refer to sub-division of any larger region did it?
So what have we determined? The definition of colony is shaky, and their may be only a few or many depending on the definition. That doesn't mean we shouldn't convey the information about the ones that do have articles, if not this template, then perhaps a category or at the very least a list. Kevlar67 01:13, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
Hi Skook. I don't know if you've had any dealings with User:WikiMart, (thinking esp the Bornmann concern) but some of his recent edits (which I've reverted) were not researched, and his previous ones have a strong whiff of POV, as you might notice. Also seems interested only in high profile party leader/past leader/premier of BC articles.-- Keefer4 07:18, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
today the census came out...which was interesting but that's a LOT of articles to bother updating. uggghhh TotallyTempo 15:11, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
Let's see, it's been a while since I worked on it, and I don't have all my notes handy. 1859 is when the "North-Western Territory" (note the -ern) was created, by the U.K. parliament's Indian Territories Act. (Historical Atlas of Canada, Gentilcore/Matthews, vol II, Plate 21). There are a few mentions of this act on the Web, but I've never seen the text, so I don't know what exactly it defined for the territory in terms of government -- I assume it was assigned to the HBC in some way. I don't know if the name was in unofficial use before that date.
By the way, I've been meaning to thank you for all the great work you've been doing. I've always had the feeling when reading pop-histories of Canada that the pre-1871 West Coast stuff was being passed over way too quickly and with too many inconsistencies. Now my curiosity into this area of history is finally being satisfied by your contributions to Wikipedia. Thanks! Indefatigable 03:40, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
I'm new here, but I think your dead-on regarding the disambiguation of Chinaman. I'd love to read your take on the controversy at the Oriental article. 68.100.207.219 20:31, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
User:Bobanny mentioned this at the Wikiproject Vancouver thread. It is worth registering a thought IMO before the issue is closed. the rename discussion is here.-- Keefer4 01:09, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
Thanks. I did find it ironic that the "sources" he was looking for were indeed in his own dictionary references. As always, your context on the matter is both refreshing and interesting. Over to the island today, so probably something of a wikibreak. Later.-- Keefer4 18:31, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
With regards to your comments on Talk:Chinaman: Please see Wikipedia's no personal attacks policy. Comment on content, not on contributors; personal attacks damage the community and deter users. Note that continued personal attacks may lead to blocks for disruption. Please stay cool and keep this in mind while editing. Thank you. Hong Qi Gong ( Talk - Contribs) 17:02, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
Please do not make personal attacks on other people, as you did at Talk:Chinaman. Wikipedia has a policy against personal attacks. In some cases, users who engage in personal attacks may be blocked from editing by admins or banned by the arbitration committee. Comment on content, not on other contributors or people. Please resolve disputes appropriately. Thank you. Hong Qi Gong ( Talk - Contribs) 18:57, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
More threats to take action, repeating yourself here for the second time in this instance. Do you have a single original bone in your body, Hong. LOL. Can you not simply show some integrity and avoid high-handed behaviours and Wikimoralizing that lead people to criticize you? And I do think you're dishonest and demonstrably so by the context of your various edits and deletions; either that or self-deceiving/deluded. Is that a personal attack? It is if you need it to be, I suppose; but you'd accuse the weather of harrassing you if it suited your purposes. Skookum1 19:02, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
OH, so it's OK for him to selectively-accuse me of "borderline racism" and THAT is not a personal attack? OK, so that's an old attack of his, but IMO so is the invocation of "weasel words" when there were none; in my part of the bush, you accuse someone of "weasel words" and you're calling him a "weasel"; if that's a fault of Wikipedia's cultural insensitivities it's certainly not mine. By comparison "twit" and "fool" are minor insults; "weasel" is an invitation to conflict where I'm from. Skookum1 21:12, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
All selective and out-of-context, and re-cited here by Hong as yet another personal attack. Have you no shame? Skookum1 21:26, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
Skookum1, stop. This is no way to discuss anything with anyone. All personal attacks should stop now. Remember WP:COOL - step away for a couple of hours if you must. Thanks. Xiner ( talk, email) 21:39, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
Skookum1, I understand that you disagree strongly with Hong. However, assuming AGF, I find his comments, while POV at times, to be more polite than you seem to give him credit for. Please try to be WP:COOL whenever you're typing a message. I cannot keep repeating this message forever. Absolutely no more personal attacks, please. Thank you. Xiner ( talk, email) 19:40, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
When someone gets angry and launches into name calling and insults directed at those with a different viewpoint, they really do not win over many other Wikipedia editors. All of us feel the adrenaline rush and the urge to punch someone (verbally) on Wikipedia when they engage in stupid, silly, unfair, sophistic arguments. The best thing is to politely say you will just have to agree to disagree, then step away for a couple of hours. This will not make other readers assume you have conceded the point or that the other has "won." If someone seems to be a twit, liar, fool, or passive aggressive nitwit, saying so will not accomplish anything. Just furnish a reference to show they are wrong or a diff to show their previous bad behavior and leave it at that. Regards. Edison 22:07, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
One of your comments at Talk:Chinaman reminded me of something I read, from a late 19th C account, where a BC government official was visiting a school on Vancouver Island and remarked to the teacher "Well, don't you have any whites or all they (the students) all Swedes?" That kind of thing really stands out to a modern reader because both terms, "white" and "Swede" have very different meanings when compared to what we would think of today. -- JGGardiner 20:11, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
Indeed it does - but any mention of the non-offensive usage is hotly disputed/deleted. Yet like "Indian" and "coloured" it continues to survive in non-offensive contexts, often in use by the people described themselves; "coloured" seems almost re-redeeming itself lately here in BC, as an option to "brown" or "brown guy(s)" (as a third-generation Sikh friend will happily use, among others); modern-era Chinese immigrants might blanche at it and get all uppity-offended (while disdaining actually mingling with white people socially, shopping etc. and not flincing when using gweilo or its Mandarin equivalent) but the kinds of guys I train at the gym with, even first-generation guys but generally 3rd or more (and sometimes/often not Chinese speakers, or not well anyway), who use it, or could at least take it in joking stride without calling the Thought Police. It's the blanket-condemnation of white motives/culture that's implicity in the "always offensive" hardline position that's so dishonest; it's an effort to dictate culture/language, rather than record it. Oddly, in the Fraser Canyon btw, "Boston" is a mild derisive (for a white, when used by a native) while "Chinaman" is not used in a derisive/malicious sense (to this day, Chinese run corner stores and restaurants in Lytton, Boston Bar etc and are part of the local social fabric). As for compiling all the citations of non-offensive use, historical and otherwise, that's original research and can't be done in Wikipedia (and Hong knows it, even though he knows such examples exist) and there's no way the p.c.-run academic cabals will ever discuss this, or any other related topic, honestly. So that, to me, is one of the failings of Wikipedia; fallback positions go to the written spewings of highly-credentialed folks even when they're wrong or half-informed. e.g. Models of migration to the New World is all citable; but the stuff on BC is outdated and inconsistent with what we've learned in the last few years (archaeological sites at the old water level, 100m down or 100' down, are turning up former human habitation down there...); but like Barbeau and Levi-Strauss and Boas, such material can still be cited; even though shown to be wrong since. Won't happen with "Chinaman", short of somebody doing a really good book on the history of English dialects in BC (which will never happen), so actual reality, being "officially uncitable", can slip forever into oblivion.... Skookum1 20:33, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
I don't suppose I could get you to adapt the new citations I just put on Talk:Chinaman, i.e. of other/older dictionaries than those HQG cited. What I may do here is take a bunch of my casual usages and put them on the Wiktionary entry's talkpage; that's not citable here and it's time-consuming but there's a lot of such examples...but in the meantime, the integration of the older dictionaries which make no mention of offensiveness seems valid to integrate into the text; but it's so tangled right now I'd prefer someone a little tighter with the syntax have a go at it (and also so HGQ has less of a good time reverting whatever changes you make).. Skookum1 20:39, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
Could you check out the Rock Springs Massacre page and refs, any comment would be appreciated. And, if it's not too much trouble, could you make the comments on the peer review? IvoShandor 15:45, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
Skookum1, Wikipedians are supposed to assume that other editors have high intelligence, so I'll take that assumption with you and assume that you know the difference between right and wrong, between the right time to use wry humor and the wrong time. In heated arguments such as these there is no reason to use such language as telling people to get glasses. Stop the personal attacks, or you will be blocked. Thank you. Xiner ( talk, email) 01:57, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
Alas, no. Mus musculus is but a common house mouse. Perhaps I should be afraid of monsters? -- Mus Musculus 15:26, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
You currently appear to be engaged in an edit war according to the reverts you have made on Chinaman (racial term). If you continue, you may be blocked from editing. Please do not repeatedly revert edits, but use the talk page to work towards wording and content which gains a consensus among editors. Thank you.
Be careful, you're getting sucked into a revert war. Xiner ( talk, email) 18:52, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
Skookum1, sockpuppet complaints should be filed according to WP:SOCK.
The 3RR rules does not distinguish between which part of an article is reverted. So technically both of you could be blocked now (the IP block would be a simple matter of a range block, as it looks like the person's editing from one range only. That'd also take out any registered users operating from that range.
Btw, I'm not sure what you mean by "admins have no part in content disputes". If you read WP:ADMIN, admins are just normal editors. Xiner ( talk, email) 20:24, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
I had a run-in a few months ago with HQG about an article I wrote, and so I know how difficult he can be to deal with. I am firmly in support of a balanced approach to terms such as 'Chinaman,' and when it comes to assisting you in matters involving HQG being difficult, would be happy to help. But, at the moment the Chinaman article has been locked to editing, and so there is not much I can there until it is unblocked. Zeus1234 21:22, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
I saw you photo request on the talk page. I was wondering if this might be them on the seawall. they all look the same to me. Bobanny 18:58, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
I dunno; could be the guys from Beatty Street, too, or even HMS Discovery (that's less likely as I don't think there's combat troops there, and those aren't naval combat gear, if there's any difference since the forces were merged that is). I'd only recognize them in their dress uniform, or their pipe band of course. My idea for an image for that article is their armoury maybe; although that of course will illustrate the armoury's own article, if/once there is one. Skookum1 19:06, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
A sensible subcategory for Streets only has been created under the new (and erroneously conjured up, imo) Category:Streets and squares in Vancouver which was finalized a few days ago. Now they want to get rid of this subcat. The insanity never ends. Please have a look. Cheers.-- Keefer4 03:01, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
Looks like some mass subcategory creation to add the appendage "people" was done recently by User:Bearcat, an administrator. I can see the reasoning behind it, to separate out notable individuals, into categories. But as we have discussed previously, along with User:Oldmanrivers I believe, this often doesn't make sense. A Category:Gitxsan people subcategory has been created. Which essentially is 'People of the Misty River people' category. I may nominate a move back to the main category, but only if it's worth bothering with. Yikes 3:30am time for bed... Nope, no more messin with sasquatches for tonight thats fer sure. :)-- Keefer4 10:38, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
Ok, it's set up now. I usually check it, 2-3 times daily. Unless it auto-notifies on wikipedia, I dunno. Anyway, later.--Keefer4 21:07, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | → | Archive 10 |
Good work on Article Requests. Thanks for that. KenWalker | Talk 23:15, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
Hey Skookum1. After thinking of other Sḵwxwú7mesh people to do articles on and fix up. (Like the Joe Capilano article, one person I figured would be good, not only for Sḵwxwú7mesh, but the Indigenous politics through out Canada. I have some written work on Andy Paull. A thesis, the biography, etc. Plus my grandmother is his daughter. My question is: should it be Andy Paull or Andrew Paull? OldManRivers 03:32, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
Hiya,
Was poking around on several talk pages and saw you contributing prolifically, then saw a lot about languages on your user page. If you know anyone who is interested in endangered languages, please be so kind as to point them in the general direction of WP:ENLANG. Thanks for your time! -- Ling.Nut 04:12, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
skookum, in the British Columbia wikiproject and in the Vancouver wiki project, Barnston Island is rated mid importance, yet Anmore is rated low importance. I read both articles and the requirements for the importance ratings, and I fail to see what makes Barnston Island substantially more important to the province than anmore. What accounts for this difference? TotallyTempo 22:23, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
I hope those quibbles aren't with anything I said. =) -- JGGardiner 19:58, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
Have you come across James McMillan (fur trader) KenWalker | Talk 07:13, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
Thanks for adding to the photo caption. Yes, Sinclair Centre should be a definite addition. Glad Hastings was a 'Keep', although it seemed the deletionists got their words in before the decision was rendered. Need sources, my butt... I was raised on Hastings and anyone who knows anything about Vancouver knows it belongs. Well anyway, off to the Herzog photo exhibit. See ya.-- Keefer4 20:55, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
I should add to what I said that it seems quite obvious to me that DEYS is not paid by some office for his work. I don't want to detail just how obvious it is because I am not into "outing" editors and I will show him some civility. Who knows, maybe there will be a Hollywood ending and I'll get a little in return. =) -- JGGardiner 09:09, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
thought you wouldn't mind if your talk page was archived again. Anyway, I started a sandbox page for ideas on expanding the buildings category for Vancouver, either for their architectural signicance, or historical significance. Feel free to stop by, make additions, comments, jokes, or whatever. Or even sources for more obscure ones. I will draw on the requested articles list and your requests thereon, but I wanted to try and map it out a little before hand. What's there now is just what I dumped from the top of my head, but I want to think it through a bit better. My thinking is that there should be 2 or more general articles, and then daughter articles for the more significant ones. That way, it'd be more user-friendly, and could accomodate buildings that might have a hard time standing on their own notability-wise. User:Bobanny/historical buildings I saw your comment to Ken above about bailing, and I'm almost there myself, so can't say I'll follow through. I've never thought of WikiPedia as an addiction, but in a way, it gives that feeling of never being satisfied because no matter what you do, it's never even close to being something you can check off on your to-do list, and the list just grows. Okay, it's late and I'm starting to ramble, ciao. Bobanny 09:33, 4 February 2007 (UTC) PS: I'll leave a message for Keefer, but feel free to point anyone else who might be interested to my buildings page. Bobanny 09:35, 4 February 2007 (UTC)
Hello again, Skookum. I saw your article on List of ghost towns in British Columbia. Very interesting. I didn’t know there were so many ghost towns in BC! My only criticism of the article is that the table is awfully wide. With so many columns, it squeezes the data more than one might like. I have proposed a couple of alternative solutions on a temp page here. Feel free to use it or not at your discretion. ● DanMS 21:19, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
Need a suggestion here. I'm not sure what wikipedia policy is, but let me know what you think. Let me know on the talk page. Talk:Potlatch#Further_Reading_List OldManRivers 22:41, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
Gosh Skookum, I don't know what to say to you. You're definitely one of the most knowledgeable editors that I've come across here and I doubt that anyone on WP knows more about BC history than you do. I know that you've created tons of content, rescued and created articles that simply wouldn't be here otherwise. It feels funny giving advice about WP to someone who has many times the number of edits that I do. But I have to say something. You really have to mind the civility. Wikipedia is really a community as much as anything else and how you interact with everyone is as important as the content you have to add. Like I said it feels funny especially because you know exactly what I'm talking about and you've said it yourself. I don't want to see anyone not editing here when they could be contributing, especially as much as you have. -- JGGardiner 09:38, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
I know what you mean about an off-wiki life. My contributions here have been pretty irregular since last summer. I’d hate to lose any Wikipedia work but if anyone has something more important to do in real life, they probably should.
I understand that it has been frustrating dealing with DEYS. I know that I have had to edit a few posts before I submitted them. But I think that I have managed to be direct without crossing any lines. DEYS himself will have to learn the rules or he won’t last as a Wikipedian. I don’t think that he works for a PR agency like your friend rascalpatrol. Although some of his early edits were of the subject-likes-puppies variety. I didn't look very deeply. Like I said, I don't like to "out" editors, you know. -- JGGardiner 07:52, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
Thought I would ask if there is a standard for the ethno articles. Like, "History, Culture, Society, Important Figures." or anything else like that. Then, if there is something like that, is there a standard for the Indian Act band council government pages. Want to work on a few Indigenous articles, but I'm not sure what I should write on first. Thanks OldManRivers 00:00, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
It was intentional. But not because of Bornmann.
Actually I'd forgotten that Bronmann was called that. Now of course I wish that I had been clever enough to think of that. -- JGGardiner 21:51, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
Thanks for uploading Image:Wagonrd2a.gif. Wikipedia gets thousands of images uploaded every day, and in order to verify that the images can be legally used on Wikipedia, the source and copyright status must be indicated. Images need to have an image tag applied to the image description page indicating the copyright status of the image. This uniform and easy-to-understand method of indicating the license status allows potential re-users of the images to know what they are allowed to do with the images.
For more information on using images, see the following pages:
This is an automated notice by OrphanBot. If you need help on selecting a tag to use, or in adding the tag to the image description, feel free to post a message at Wikipedia:Media copyright questions. 00:11, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
The Cascade range article, for example, is part of the Cascade range category. The Cascade range category is and should be a member of all the categories you mentioned. I should have indicated I was 'deleting double level categories'. I saw/see no purpose in having both the article and ts same named category as members of another category. Thanks Hmains 17:27, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
Well done on the reversion. I was tempted to do it myself last night but didn't get around to it. I have picked up a couple of history books from the library that deal with these events, interesting stuff. I also have a couple on the coastal shipping that I want to put into an article that will fit nicely with your ship lists. I see that the automatic archiving on the project talk page is working now. I have it on my talk page as well. Seems like a good way to go. Cheers -- KenWalker | Talk 21:43, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
Thank you for doing the necessary removal of the colonial governors and creating their own article. Unfortunately, your editorial activity seems to inadvertently resulted in the loss of the terms. Could you reinsert them somehow when you get the chance? Much thanks. Fishhead64 08:06, 25 February 2007 (UTC)
Minisandboxing here to gain access to template for revision: {{ Canadian viceroys}} Skookum1 19:48, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
Hi, how's it goin? Please see Talk: Stewart Phillip, seems to be a bit snarky around there. I left a note for oldmanrivers sayin I'd let ya know. Later.-- Keefer4 09:21, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
I understand your concern, which I think is valid, although I'm not sure I agree. At any rate, until the separate people article is written from the First Nation article, it makes sense to include them both on the same page. - TheMightyQuill 07:06, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
The situation is muddled because many band governments have adopted the term "First Nation" or "Nation" to replace Indian Band; others stick with Indian Band but are the same thing. And it varies from reserve to reserve, even within nations, as to what the usage is; Squamish Nation to Oldmanrivers, a Squamish person/ Skwxwu7mesh means something imposed on his people, who are, by his chosen and apparently the official usage, Skwxwu7mesh, but in Mt Currie while Lil'wat Nation is used synonymously with the Mount Currie Indian Band, and also synymous with the Lower St'at'imc (well, including In-SHUCK-ch in that terminology; Nequatque are Upper St'at'imc), "Lil'wat Nation" is also the name used by the more radical element in Mt Currie's people, who act above and outside the band government, often in defiance and condemnation of it (as with the Cayoosh Ski Resort debate). In some cases there is absolute synonymy between the band government and the term First Nation; in other cases it's more political in tone, one way or the other. There's also reserves like Douglas Lake First Nation, aka the Upper Nicola Indian Band, who are a mix of Spaxomin (the local Syilx group) and Scw'exmx (the local Nlaka'pamux group), though mostly Spaxomin (usually Spahomin in English). The Shackan Indian Band's people are the Sxe'xn'x (a subgroup of or allied group to the Scw'exmx) and even though it might use Shackan First Nation the fact is that Shackan is an anglicization and Sxe'xn'x is the preferred form; as with Xwemelch'stn vs the usual older English Homulchesan. I know it's a problem with terminology: First Nations means ethnicity as well as governments; so the convention is that articles with "First Nation" or "Nation" in the title, unless pre-existing as ethno articles (as with some US ones) should be government articles, and the ethnicity per se be dealt with in the stand-alone name form, even being a First Nation in the cultural sense, rather than in a political-organization sense. The reason has to do with multi-ethnic reserves and also multi-ethnic tribal councils, and also cultural preferences about the articles these people are about. And included in the cultural preferences are terminologies such as the distinction between Llenlleney'ten and High Bar First Nation, or between Skwxwu7mesh and Squamish Nation. I guess I'll get around to drawing up that table of who fits with which article and which ethnic group and which tribal council(s), although more as a talkpage resource/refereence than conceivably as an article, although it might better help organize List of First Nations in British Columbia - the opening text of which I'm going to try to adjust to deal with some of the different definitions/usages, and undoing having List of First Nations governments in British Columbia refer to First Nations in British Columbia or List of First Nations in British Columbia (one of those refers to the other, I'm sure); the latter will be for the ethnicity articles, the governments list for the government ones; subtle distinction to non-First Nations people(s), but a highly important one for First Nations people(s) themselves, and that should be respected; that's also how it evolved at WikiProject indigenous peoples of North America; see its "articles" sub-talkpage for the various categories and, somewhere in there, the discussion which established the article/structure-hierarchy paradigm at play, the why of it all. Confusing, cumbersome, true, but occasionally the only way to sort things out. First Nations in the traditional sense are ethnic and social entities; they are not synonymous with band governments; nor is the band government synonymous with the community. Certainly not; it's state vs nation as a dichotomy, complicated into trichotomy and more because of the Indian Act regimes, which are only sometimes identical with traditional bodies/sociopolitical structure (e.g. Nuxalk from what I understan, and sometimes the use of "Nation" or "First Nation" in something's title is an assumed and not politically-supported form within the community's own cultural definitions, as with Skwxwu7mesh- Squamish Nation and any number of other examples I could trot out. Skookum1 09:03, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
Okay, I'll admit that people isn't the ideal term, but government isn't either. As we've discussed before, a First Nation is also a people, and a place, not just a government, and all your articles suggest otherwise. I have consistently disagreed with "what has been explained to me" so there is certainly no consensus.
I don't think the people and the government need to be equated, but Hungary is neither just a government, nor just a people either. The main page links to culture of Hungary, hungarian people, geography, language AND government. Why can't we do the same with the First Nations articles? And smaller countries that don't have full Culture of X, People of X and Geography of X combine all that information in the main country site. Your current plan seems to be to have articles on Government of Hungary, Hungarian people, Hungarian language, but no Hungary. I think that's crazy.
I'm glad you created Ulkatchot’en, but I suspect you're not going to create a complete article for every tiny nation's culture in BC, at least not any time soon. My suggestion is that, until the content is sufficient to create two decent articles, we don't create a shitty empty stub for every government, reserve, and people in the country. I'm well aware that there are differences, but I'm also aware that you don't actually know what they are. =) - TheMightyQuill 19:30, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
Yes, yet you've left Carey Price included in the Ulkatcho First Nation article. My point is that you may consider the Ulkatcho Band Council a puppet regime, but it doesn't make sense to call the Ulkatcho First Nation a puppet regime, since it is equally a people and a place. I don't know how you can disagree that First Nation means place, when all the First Nations reserves I've ever been to have big signs that say "Welcome to XXX First Nation." If you want to limit something to government, then create XXX Band Council articles, because government articles don't include historic territory or modern land ownership either. Government articles don't include information on the economy, or on private businesses run on the land controlled by that government. Nor are treaty claims limited to what is done by the Band Council or Tribal council, since there is obvious disagreement within most nations as to what should be done. Again, I'll retract my edits suggesting each First Nation is a people, it's not a people, but it's not a government either, it's a nation. There's no other reasonable synonym for nation. I agree that First Nations are different that other major nation states, but that is the closest comparison. - TheMightyQuill 20:03, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
Fine, he can be removed from that article, then, which was the only one at the time (since I created it because of him, in fact). The "First Nation" terminology has to be defined in each and every case; and the ethnological meaning should be stated, but it is IMPORTANT to distinguish between the government and the ethnicity/people. These aren't my biases, but inbuilt realities from First Nations' own cultural-political consciousness. The intro sentence can run something like "the XXX First Nation is the name of a First Nations government etc. It can also refer to the XXX people themselves see "XXX". This is what I meant about it being something like a disambig page; there ARE distinct meanings; but the article-title convention is to have "Nation/First Nation" for the government articles, and without those designations for the othe articles, albeit stating in each case that "First Nation" has variable meanings, and in a certain context is the official name of the band government/Indian Act proxy, but also refers to the ethnicity/group as a whole in a very distinct and nowhere-near-synonymous sense. I'll refer you AGAIN to the Skwxwu7mesh/ Squamish Nation comparison (see those talkpages, esp. OldManRivers' comments). We can't use all three meanings of "nation" here, as you're suggesting in your last bit; that's fudging; they have to be disambig'd or otherwise clearly stated as different contexts/usages. Skookum1 20:11, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
Here's some examples of the confusion:
I've begun List of First Nations governments in British Columbia, which formerly was rediret to First Nations in British Columbia. IMO there should also be List of Tribal Councils in British Columbia, with the first-named being for individual band governments only. Skookum1 21:49, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
I agree it's complex and, more importantly, that each case is different. But if I can't pretend that First Nation automatically at once, you can't pretend it DOESN'T when in some cases (such as Ulkatcho First Nation perhaps) it does. Nation means nation. Government may be a part of it, but the Sto:lo Nation might well exist whether or not there was a Tribal Council. It's confusing, because the Tribal Council refers to itself as "Sto:lo Nation" even though it doesn't include all Sto:lo peoples, and it isn't even negotiating the land claims of all of its official member nations. But the term "council" denotes government, nation is something different. Read nation: A nation is a group of humans who assume that they share a common identity, and share a common language, religion, ideology, culture, and/or history. They are usually assumed to have a common origin, in the sense of ancestry, parentage or descent. AND The term nation is often used as a synonym for ethnic group (sometimes "ethnos"), but although ethnicity is now one of the most important aspects of cultural or social identity for the members of most nations, people with the same ethnic origin may live in different nation-states and be treated as members of separate nations for that reason. So nation is not the same as ethnicity either. - TheMightyQuill 23:24, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
I'm not sure I understand your sarcasm. It's understood that Canada is a nation state, but some countries like Dominican Republic, Czech Republic, United States of America, United Arab Emirates do contain details in their titles that specifically refer to their form of nationhood. - TheMightyQuill 06:53, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
Thing is they nearly all use Nation or First Nation in their government titles, and have alternate names as either an Indian Band or a Tribal Council, depending on which. This is why the title I used for [[tl|Kwakwaka'wakw peoples}} - which can eventually include documented but extinct groups, some of which never came into being as bands, or as in the Mowachaht-Muchalaht case and Danaxdaxw-Awaetatla are a union of two different ethnographic groups. Small-n nation, fine, but the capitalized form has been "co-opted" by Band Governments while at the same time having an ethnographic context; Nisga'a Nation, Gitxsan Nation, St'at'imc Nation, Sto:lo Nation are governments for the nation of the Nisga'a, the nation of the Gitxsan, and particular groups of the nations of St'at'imc and Fraser River Salish (it may be that Kwayquitlams and Kwantlens etc may be occasionally, or inappropriately, referred to as Sto:lo, but the Chehalis never are. Anyway, the point is that the "First Nation" title/designation is nearly always an option for "Indian Band" and they're generally used interchangeable; Seton Lake Indian Band, Seton Lake First Nation. But their nation-as-nation grouping is St'at'imc, although the particular people are Tsalalh'mc and they, too, are a separate First Nation within the larger St'at'imc Nation, which again is not the same thing as the nation of the St'at'imc. There are parallel examples all across the province; and it's nearly an ironclad rule about "Alkali Lake First Nation" and "Alkali Lake Indian Band"; in most cases of newly-created articles I went with the most recent incarnation online in various directories, i.e. as to whether Indian Band or First Nation, but at some time or other, and probably simultaneously on occasion, they've used the other one of whichever they're listed as now. Separating all that out from "First Nations" in an ethnographic sense is the context of what's at debate here; the existing convention, which granted *I* established (very much in response to OldManRivers' objections to Squamish Nation as an imposed and artificial name that is a construct supplanted on the Skxwxwu7mesh Uxwuimixw, which would be the name of a Skwxwu7mesh state, as Nisga'a Lisims if of the Nisga'a state), is to respect the band governments' desire to be called First Nations, and that of tribal councils to be called Nations, e.g. Okanagan Nation Alliance, which does include all Okanagans, even the American group, whereas Nlaka'pamux Nation Tribal Council and Sto:lo Nation etc do NOT include all their respective "nations" (using the quotes to emphasize lower-case n, not to degrade that meaning, the ethnograhpic one, only to specify it). Skookum1 02:34, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
I'm all for a dab line, or mini-disambigs, and I've been toying with the syntax; I find the wording on Talk:Squamish Nation and its counterpart to be a bit POV, but also to the point. The basics are "this page is for the government of the xxx. For an article on their history and culture see etc.", and vice-versa, with the full explanation of the different meanings in the First Nations and First Nations in British Columbia articles/intros. Skookum1 03:14, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
Okay, I agree with Keefer that all this categorization is dehumanizing at best and neo-colonial at worst. Let me pitch this another way. What if an XXX Nation page acts as a sort of disambiguation page which links to
Rather than being a simple list of links to these other related articles, the XXX Nation could include a summary of these other articles. IF these articles do not yet exist, the summary could remain on the XXX Nation page until the individual article are created, thus avoiding 4 pages with two sentences or a bunch of empty subsections. Any problems with this? This avoids confining the ethnicity to just the government's definition, or from restricting the definition of nation to just government and ignoring the population and territory. Any takers? - TheMightyQuill 07:09, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
If you want to get really awful about it. The first example would work for tribal affilications, inter-tribal organizations, and etc, such as " Kwagiutl District Council". As for termenology, no nation, Nation, First Nations, first nations AFTER the name of the people. It's a Anglo-Canadian POV because Anglo-Canadians put that term on these Indigenous peoples. OldManRivers 03:44, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
I'm quickly being convinced of your organization plan, and especially because Oldmanrivers' template below looks good. I still retain my complaint that XXX First Nation is not just a government, as it also refers, in common usage, to the territory. So I guess my main problem is the wording "XXX First Nation is a government..." when it's a nation not a government. Can we find some solution to that? - TheMightyQuill 22:09, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
Skookum, my friend, you don't need to write a whole novel just to tell me that territories overlap and linguistic divisions are problematic, especially when it's something I already know. =) I also don't see why you keep bringing up tribal councils, since we're not talking about tribal councils, or why you finish by suggesting gov't articles should be separate from ethnic articles, when I've already agreed to this.
The point is this: I know from experience, and you seem willing to concede, that "XXX First Nation" is used as an indication of place as well as a title for government. It's really irrelevant whether it is used to describe simply reserve lands or traditional territory, because my argument is that it is incorrect to begin every article with "XXX First Nation is a government" when we both know it also indicates, in some way, a place. -
TheMightyQuill 23:22, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
How can you be emphatic, when you know what I'm saying is true. You know you've seen signs that say "Welcome to XXX First Nation." I have friends that talk about "life at Wet'suwet'en First Nation" - AT denotes place. It's common usage. Just because you don't believe it should be used this way, or is somehow insufficient doesn't change the fact that it IS used this way BY the people who actually live there. I've never been to Squamish First Nation, nor do I know any Skwxwu7mesh people, so I can't speak to that. Maybe it's different there, but that doesn't solve the problem. - TheMightyQuill 00:56, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
It's similar, except there is also the matter of Coast Salish and Kwakwaka'wakw and others. You probably know this, but what I'm saying does not apply to all Indigenous people in BC, nor is what you are saying
But for naming titles to seperate from the articles like Skwxwu7mesh and Squamish Nation, we need to have all the Indigenous people in BC have the names of their people, in their spelling. There are 198 indian band in BC, but there is not that many Indigenous groups ( Skwxwu7mesh, Tsiel-waututh, Namgis, WASNEC, Ahousaht, Heiltsuk and many more, WITHOUT anything after that (see Skwxwu7mesh). THEN, just like Skwxwu7mesh, we had links and talk about the tribal governments. I know there are a lot of pages that have no been created yet, but hey, something to work on. THEN, we can do a page Indigenous peoples of the Pacific Northwest Coast, and talking about all the major groups with brief bio's and links to all the groups from the Northwest Coast. Similar pages can be made for other groups. As for the land thing, it's kind of weird. There are places like [[Haida Gwaii], but it's not similar around BC right. We never had a name for our territory. It was just Skwxwu7mesh temixw, but that's reall incorrect and only been used recently for land claims and dealing with the government. (temixw = land. uxwumixw = village). So, to put it simply, there is no Canada, in the name of a massive territory. There Canada the nation, and Canadians the people, but European does not translate well over to many Indigenous languages. (SIDE NOTE) A friend who's getting his PhD at UBC told me about the main difference. I wanted to mention because it's relevant to this discussion. He said, European languages are noun based, where many Indigenous languages from this area are verb based. Place names, terminology, etc, vs. action words, things people do, etc. No wonder you all want terms for Indigenous peoples places, people, things, but it simply and probably doesn't exist. OldManRivers 10:17, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
I know we talked about this breifly, but I cannot remember what we came up with. I'm trying to think of a good template for the First Nation's pages, and the ethnic/cultural pages. I created pre-contact and post-contact to the Skwxwu7mesh page, which would probably be best since a lot of traditions still carry on (although history books would have you belief we're all dead). I came up with:
For culture and ethnic pages. (Examples being Haida, Skwxwu7mesh, Sto'lo, Kwakwaka'wakw)
For Indian act political affiliation (Examples being any __________ First Nation)
I wanted to add to this list for some constancy among the pages. There are also the actual government institutions such as Nuu-chah-nulth Tribal Council, and other Tribal Councils or tribal affiliations, which are political institutions representing a varying degree of native peoples from different groups, from different blah blah blah.
Anything else we should add? Or a place to talk about this with more people. I get the notion at Project Indigenous Peoples of North America, there isn't many people that understand BC clearly, but anywhere for forum on this would be great. (Still learning how to navigate wikipedia.) Thanks for any help OldManRivers 04:09, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
What definition of Nation are you using here? This article has "people articles" like Nlaka'pamux and Kwakwaka'wakw listed as nations (not to mention Halkomelem language). Even weirder, Carcross/Tagish First Nation is listed as being from the Dene Nation, although they are Tagish and Tlingit. Although those are linguistically part of the Na-Dené languages, we know linguistic categories are bogus, and Carcross/Tagish aren't to my knowledge, even part of the Dene Nation Tribal council. - TheMightyQuill 01:16, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
You mean "nation" in the table header? That was my attempt to address your concerns; in the title "First Nations governments" is obvious enough; "Ethnicity"? It's a sliding scale; the Tsalalh'mc are a nation within the St'at'imc Nation (actually within the Lc'lc'mc, the Lakes Lillooet, which until mid-19th Century was a separate identity within the St'at'imc; mind you so, still, are Cayoose Creek, Lillooet and Bridge River Bands i.e. separate identities, within the "metropolitan Lillooet" native community). If Carcross/Tagish is in that way it was my mistake; I was thinking of the Gwi'chin and Han and other Yukon peoples, who are in the Dene group (as are, by their own determination, the Tshilqot'in and Dakelh and other Athapaskans in BC). If there are mistakes in who belongs where, by all means fix them; I was copy-pasting at high speed, transferring link-names from other pages, and there are doubtless mistakes here and there; I'd put Union Bar in Nlaka'pamux originally, but it's non-Sto:lo Halqemeylem-speaking (that is to say, Fraser River Coast Salish or Fraser River Salish). As to the labelling of the table header, if you have something better to put in place of "nation" in that field (Kwakwaka'wakw, Haida, Tsilhqot'in, Secwepemc, not local ethno-nations like Esketemc or Tsalalh'mc or Spaxomin, who belong in the other column). I'm thinking the way to deal with the alternate names is to ditch that column and make multiple entries, so that the entire thing is sortable; also "Language 1" and "Language 2" so those are also sortable. I may also have town/locations wrong, or in some cases didn't bother (e.g. 'Namgis because I couldn't remember if it's Port Hardy, Port McNeill, Sayward, or what). Skookum1 02:29, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
I'd already made {{ Kwakwaka'wakw peoples}} and {{ Nuu-chah-nulth-aht peoples}} but just tried a different, perhaps better, title: {{ Peoples of the Secwepemc Nation}}. A similar retitling of the governments ones, currently {{ Kwakwaka'wakw First Nations}} could be {{ Governments of the Kwakwaka'wakw Nation}}. Except that "Kwakwaka'wakw Nation" is never (usually) put that way, and IIRC has political overtones (as being an organizational name separate from the Laich-kwil-tach-Comox-Kwagyulh formation of the Kwakiutl District Council; well, which doesn't include the Kwagyulh/Kwakiutl First Nation any more (the Fort Rupert Band). Maybe {{ Governments of the St'at'imc people}} might be a better format; because in that case, as elsewhere, "St'at'imc Nation means a particular tribal council, or can (also Nlaka'pamux Nation, Kwakiutl Nation, Shuswap Nation, just for starters). Anyway, I think the new title(s) might work better, and be less confusing, and also address the concept of ethnolinguistic nations spanning several smaller nation-groups. Skookum1 03:15, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
Just out of curiousity, how many individual First Nations are there in BC? We're going to create a government page for each, plus at least one "people" page for each one, plus tribal councils, plus larger cultural "people/nation" pages for each group (like St'at'imc). That's a lot of work to do. TheMightyQuill 01:19, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
Hi, Snookum... you recently put Steveston, British Columbia and some communities in Kamloops under the category Category:Communities within district municipalities in British Columbia. Technically, Richmond (where Steveston is) and Kamloops are both cities, not districts. I created a new category, Category:Communities within cities in British Columbia, to differentiate between the two, so that should probably be used in the future. Thanks! -→ Buchanan-Hermit™/ ?! 22:31, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
Yeah, I was thinking that category needed creation; not so important for towns and villages I guess. Also Category:First Nations communities in British Columbia strkes me as needed, perhaps as a retitling of Category:First Nations reserves in British Columbia; as not all native communities are on-reserve; and various reserves have multiple communities within them; and there are towns that get an "FN" template but are still non-FN towns (e.g. Hazelton, Lillooet); Category:First Nations communities in British Columbia also helps deal with stuff like Camchin and Xwemelch'tsn, which are traditional community names, and not reserves per se, although they are on, or partly on in Camchin's case, reserve land. Actual articles on reserves per se are few and far between, and the articles in the cat at present are largely titled as towns, not as, e.g. " Shalalth, British Columbia" instead of Slosh Indian Reserve No. 1 (and No. 1a, 2 etc.). For most situations now I'm adding both the FN reserves cat as well as the unincorporated settlements cat (unless there's an incorporation, as at Lillooet) Skookum1 22:37, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
Also, please note Delta, British Columbia is a district municipality, not a city. (Although it's called the "Corporation of Delta," for whatever reason.) :) -→ Buchanan-Hermit™/ ?! 23:59, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
Hi noticed all the hard categorization work you've been doing today. Noticed a redlink to Hydroelectric development in this one, tried to find actual category but couldn't.. bot will probably kill it, but just thought I'd let ya know. On that topic, I vaguely remember some type of hydro project being ballyhooed around for the area, but couldn't find anything on it currently. I don't think it would take place in the village, and should perhaps be associated with Kispiox River if needed when that entity comes into existence. Anyway, good to see better categories being applied up there (and everywhere)...Later.-- Keefer4 22:39, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
This doesn't strike me as a community at all, but more something some local chamber of commerce/tourism folks came up with to market an area, and it's mentioned on some tourist web sites. Our friend KenWalker added it, so perhaps I'll take its future up with him.-- Keefer4 00:12, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
Not that it's high priority, but... I'm tired of seeing it unresolved. Whatcha think?-- Keefer4 10:44, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
Wow, that article is atrocious. I'm making that my biggest priority right now, but I could use some help with it. See all the comments I put on the Talk:Coast_Salish. OldManRivers 05:28, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
Hey, what's your criticism of Kwantlen & Katzie being Sto:lo? You haven't put anything on either talk page. - TheMightyQuill 09:14, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
Well, I can't be everywhere at once; my "read" on the Sto:lo thing is from the Sto:lo website; I used to have the Sto:lo Historical Atlas which might have provided some further direction on this issue, but that was written/funded by the Sto:lo Nation so may not reflect what the Kwantlens, Katzies, Chehalis etc have to say about themselves. The only thing to do is write and ask, I suppose; they may be perfectly happen with Sto:lo, or ditto with a "people" suffix such as Sto:lo'em or whatever the proper Halqemeylem may be. The Sto:lo site only lists certain bands/peoples, i.e. their own members; the Katzies I can get a direct answer from someone, I hope, who knows them well and writes on indigenous and fishery issues ( Terry Glavin, who's a friend). I'll have to look at the Sto:lo list again; there's a few other isolates too - the Yale band, I think, but maybe they're already there. Point is that "people of the (Fraser) river" is fine (with the assumption that only the lower Fraser River is the context, the context being given by a Halqemeylem wording/name presumably). The Musqueam and Tsawwassen linguistically fall into the Georgia Strait group. Skookum1 21:31, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
Was just beginning to compile a list of hotels, and came upon one that had an article already created last October that wasn't really too much to do with the hotel itself thus far...-- Keefer4 06:51, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
If you can recommend a more reliable source of mainstream news on BC, I'm all ears. - TheMightyQuill 09:05, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
You have asked for help on fixing this template. What do you want the template to look and functions like? Can you give a description? AQu01rius ( User Talk) 07:17, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
I know it's very loose to put Indigenous for all the articles for the people of the North West Coast in all the articles relating to the Pscific Northwest Coast. I figure this way we can differentiate between all the other Indigenous groups, and although the [[[Indigenous peoples of the Pacific Northwest Coast]] are still very diverse, it would be a good place for people to become familiar with the different, then we can talk about all the major cultural regions ( Kwakwaka'wakw, Coast Salish, Haida, etc.) with directions to all the people, and talk about all different peoples. It would introduce people to all the Indigenous people. It's not Aboriginal because were not Metis or Inuit, and it would be a a good way to organize everything with the names of all the nations. I would also like to add maps of all the different nations, and here we can have a massive map of all the different nations. What do you think? You down for it? OldManRivers 04:27, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
There's already Category:Indigenous languages of the North American Northwest Coast I think, and Category:Indigenous languages of the North American Plateau so should probably follow the same format; whichever it should probably be Indigenous peoples of the Pacific Northwest Coast, or better yet Indigenous peoples of the North American Northwest Coast and Indigenous peoples of the North American Plateau]]; or would you hold for separate culture-regions for the main article, i.e. Coast and Interior (the paradigm applies south of the line, too, I know). Skookum1 04:32, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
Wikipedia style/title-content guidelines; ideally Indigenous peoples of the Pacific Northwest Coast of North America is more like it, really, though unwieldy. The North American Northwest Coast seems like a compromise phrasing but I wasn't around when the cats were spawned; the North American Plateau is also rather vague; ethnologists usually distinguish the Northwest Plateau in the same way the Northwest Coast; but it's what there already. It doesn't have to be mirrored, although this makes me wonder if there's regional people categories already in the same way there's regional language categories; I'll look around the Indigenous Wikiproject; but I'm pretty sure the people categories all fall under the First Nations hierarchy anyway; "Pacific Northwest" is a standard term, so is "Northwest Coast", and to specify where the combinaton Pacific Northwest Coast seems clearest (don't forget there's a "northwest coast" off the Bering Sea, too, ahd the Beaufort even...); Northwest Plateau could do for the Interior although in the US they tend to use Pacific Northwest to also include Idaho and Montana, but I daresay people in the Interior of BC don't consider themselves exactly Pacific Northwest; vs where on the Coast it's perfectly obvious that it iis. But "be bold" and use your preferred title; I see your point about Coast vs Interior and had of course opined about it, but I should add that the Interior peoples, or some of them, also potlatched, though with the elaborate ceremonials and complicated politics of the Coast; a potlatch was simply a gift-feast and AFAIK not associated with obtaining rank or status or whatever you wish to explain about coastal potlatching; it was about, if anything, loyalty and generosity. Hunter Jack was famous for his, and Nicola I believe also, and his son and grandson, both named Chilliheetza; but obviously the social/cultural context of the Interior potlatch is different, and I think more internal to bands than between them (say, in the Lillooet/St'at'imc country I think); they simply applied the term from Chinook, as it had come also to be used in English, without importing the whole culture of potlatching which I know you were talking about. Treaties and intertribal gatherings were usually commemorated by "hiyus", which meant "gatherings" (long form hiyu kunamoxt - "many together") and typically had horseraces, dancing, slahal etc several days long. (as in Chiwid, but in many other sources); potlatches seem to have been rarer in what I've read, but I have seen mention; and there's spill-over with coastal cultures with the Wet'suwet'en because of their longstanding interaction with the Gitxsan, don't forget (as though not coastal the Gitxsan are part of the Coast cultural sphere). Anyway, fire away with your article; if some admin somewhere is unhappy with the title you choose everything can be shifted around; try to remember the necessasry cats and also the talkpage teampltes {{ NorthAmNative}} and {{ BCproject}} or whatever rating (we're not supposed to rate our own articles, but...). Skookum1 06:40, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
Ah, I see. Okay. I wouldn't include the Plateau, because I'm thinking it's pretty much all nations who did potlatching. The categories are good, but maybe and article?
OldManRivers
Finally got some balls and made the article. Probably going to get something about citations, but I did figure out how to do citations (yay!). You probably have a lot more books you can cite then I do at the moment. My grandmother is giving me a copy of Conversations of Khatsahlano one day, but I think you have more books on Vancouver that mention him. I also made a redirect from August Jack as that might come up also. If you know of any pages we could had this link to. (Such as Kitsilano, etc.) that would be great. OldManRivers 22:18, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
OldManRivers 07:09, 11 March 2007 (UTC)As me and my friends say, it's not racism, it's xenophobia. OldManRivers 07:09, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
Yeah, this is a big issue with recording oral histories, including whether a written history can adequately express what is has been handed down orally. As well, there is the question of who has the right to tell certain stories. I saw Neal McLeod] speak once about the North West Resistance (or "the troubles" as he called them), and he insisted he could give further explanation for the killings of certain Indian Agents, but that the stories were not his to tell, the the families involved had decided not to tell those stories publicly, at least not yet. This kind of respect for privacy isn't often as respected in the world of academia or journalism, and makes adaptation into a medium like wikipedia difficult at best. Perhaps that's part of the reason the north west resistance article is so totally POV. In the mean time, good work on the a.j. khatsahlano page. It's nice that the hotel had the decency to ask permission to use his name. - TheMightyQuill 22:57, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
I know eh. - OldManRivers 07:09, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
Wow, okay lots to respond to here.
First off glad to see someone care enough to take the interest.
Specifics:
Colony also has the sense of cultural, and not only political, continuity. For example the Greek colonies in Italy were never ruled by kings back in Arcadia but by new ones, appointed just for that task. Same for Norse in NA. They were cultural colonies. The world colonies in even used for the ethnic block Settlements of the prairies. As for the word Viking, I realize it's more of an occupation than a ethnic group, but I figured it was more common. I suppose strict correctness is better in this case.
I simply added the Portuguese and Scottish ones because we already have articles about them. I don't particularly see them as being better or worse than Spanish claims on the Pacific. That's really a discussion for the whole of WP. How long does a colony have to exist to get an article? Because I figure once they've got an article they're fair game for cat and templates. Meanwhile for Terre Neuve we actually have a list of governors sent out for that one, so there was no way I was going to ignore that. If we have that kind of documentary evidence for the Russians in the pacific, then that's great. I know I just read yesterday about the Spanish actually sending out some officials to Nootka Sound, so that should be mentioned somewhere in WP, if not in the template.
There are way too many districts to include them all. Certainly not on a template of this scope, they could get their own for pete's sake. Kevlar67 01:48, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
No I hadn't added the Selkirk and Red River Colonies. I suppose they would qualify as well as the Norse would. I agree about the Spanish. I remember reading that Vancouver Island was once called Vancouver and Quadra's Island after the Spanish explorer and governor. Problem is we don't have an article about the colonies they created. Perhaps we should. In fact, I know we should. Same goes for the Russians. Although it would be hard to separate that information from the history of Alaska. Perhaps just listing Alaska would be a solution. The North-Western Territory (North-Western) was pre-Confed, it roughly referred to everything in the Arctic drainage basin. It was bought from the HBC by at the same time as Rupert's Land. Together the NWernT and RL became Canada's NWT. As for the districts in what latter became BC, I guess they were colonies of a sort too. District didn’t refer to sub-division of any larger region did it?
So what have we determined? The definition of colony is shaky, and their may be only a few or many depending on the definition. That doesn't mean we shouldn't convey the information about the ones that do have articles, if not this template, then perhaps a category or at the very least a list. Kevlar67 01:13, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
Hi Skook. I don't know if you've had any dealings with User:WikiMart, (thinking esp the Bornmann concern) but some of his recent edits (which I've reverted) were not researched, and his previous ones have a strong whiff of POV, as you might notice. Also seems interested only in high profile party leader/past leader/premier of BC articles.-- Keefer4 07:18, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
today the census came out...which was interesting but that's a LOT of articles to bother updating. uggghhh TotallyTempo 15:11, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
Let's see, it's been a while since I worked on it, and I don't have all my notes handy. 1859 is when the "North-Western Territory" (note the -ern) was created, by the U.K. parliament's Indian Territories Act. (Historical Atlas of Canada, Gentilcore/Matthews, vol II, Plate 21). There are a few mentions of this act on the Web, but I've never seen the text, so I don't know what exactly it defined for the territory in terms of government -- I assume it was assigned to the HBC in some way. I don't know if the name was in unofficial use before that date.
By the way, I've been meaning to thank you for all the great work you've been doing. I've always had the feeling when reading pop-histories of Canada that the pre-1871 West Coast stuff was being passed over way too quickly and with too many inconsistencies. Now my curiosity into this area of history is finally being satisfied by your contributions to Wikipedia. Thanks! Indefatigable 03:40, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
I'm new here, but I think your dead-on regarding the disambiguation of Chinaman. I'd love to read your take on the controversy at the Oriental article. 68.100.207.219 20:31, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
User:Bobanny mentioned this at the Wikiproject Vancouver thread. It is worth registering a thought IMO before the issue is closed. the rename discussion is here.-- Keefer4 01:09, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
Thanks. I did find it ironic that the "sources" he was looking for were indeed in his own dictionary references. As always, your context on the matter is both refreshing and interesting. Over to the island today, so probably something of a wikibreak. Later.-- Keefer4 18:31, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
With regards to your comments on Talk:Chinaman: Please see Wikipedia's no personal attacks policy. Comment on content, not on contributors; personal attacks damage the community and deter users. Note that continued personal attacks may lead to blocks for disruption. Please stay cool and keep this in mind while editing. Thank you. Hong Qi Gong ( Talk - Contribs) 17:02, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
Please do not make personal attacks on other people, as you did at Talk:Chinaman. Wikipedia has a policy against personal attacks. In some cases, users who engage in personal attacks may be blocked from editing by admins or banned by the arbitration committee. Comment on content, not on other contributors or people. Please resolve disputes appropriately. Thank you. Hong Qi Gong ( Talk - Contribs) 18:57, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
More threats to take action, repeating yourself here for the second time in this instance. Do you have a single original bone in your body, Hong. LOL. Can you not simply show some integrity and avoid high-handed behaviours and Wikimoralizing that lead people to criticize you? And I do think you're dishonest and demonstrably so by the context of your various edits and deletions; either that or self-deceiving/deluded. Is that a personal attack? It is if you need it to be, I suppose; but you'd accuse the weather of harrassing you if it suited your purposes. Skookum1 19:02, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
OH, so it's OK for him to selectively-accuse me of "borderline racism" and THAT is not a personal attack? OK, so that's an old attack of his, but IMO so is the invocation of "weasel words" when there were none; in my part of the bush, you accuse someone of "weasel words" and you're calling him a "weasel"; if that's a fault of Wikipedia's cultural insensitivities it's certainly not mine. By comparison "twit" and "fool" are minor insults; "weasel" is an invitation to conflict where I'm from. Skookum1 21:12, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
All selective and out-of-context, and re-cited here by Hong as yet another personal attack. Have you no shame? Skookum1 21:26, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
Skookum1, stop. This is no way to discuss anything with anyone. All personal attacks should stop now. Remember WP:COOL - step away for a couple of hours if you must. Thanks. Xiner ( talk, email) 21:39, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
Skookum1, I understand that you disagree strongly with Hong. However, assuming AGF, I find his comments, while POV at times, to be more polite than you seem to give him credit for. Please try to be WP:COOL whenever you're typing a message. I cannot keep repeating this message forever. Absolutely no more personal attacks, please. Thank you. Xiner ( talk, email) 19:40, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
When someone gets angry and launches into name calling and insults directed at those with a different viewpoint, they really do not win over many other Wikipedia editors. All of us feel the adrenaline rush and the urge to punch someone (verbally) on Wikipedia when they engage in stupid, silly, unfair, sophistic arguments. The best thing is to politely say you will just have to agree to disagree, then step away for a couple of hours. This will not make other readers assume you have conceded the point or that the other has "won." If someone seems to be a twit, liar, fool, or passive aggressive nitwit, saying so will not accomplish anything. Just furnish a reference to show they are wrong or a diff to show their previous bad behavior and leave it at that. Regards. Edison 22:07, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
One of your comments at Talk:Chinaman reminded me of something I read, from a late 19th C account, where a BC government official was visiting a school on Vancouver Island and remarked to the teacher "Well, don't you have any whites or all they (the students) all Swedes?" That kind of thing really stands out to a modern reader because both terms, "white" and "Swede" have very different meanings when compared to what we would think of today. -- JGGardiner 20:11, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
Indeed it does - but any mention of the non-offensive usage is hotly disputed/deleted. Yet like "Indian" and "coloured" it continues to survive in non-offensive contexts, often in use by the people described themselves; "coloured" seems almost re-redeeming itself lately here in BC, as an option to "brown" or "brown guy(s)" (as a third-generation Sikh friend will happily use, among others); modern-era Chinese immigrants might blanche at it and get all uppity-offended (while disdaining actually mingling with white people socially, shopping etc. and not flincing when using gweilo or its Mandarin equivalent) but the kinds of guys I train at the gym with, even first-generation guys but generally 3rd or more (and sometimes/often not Chinese speakers, or not well anyway), who use it, or could at least take it in joking stride without calling the Thought Police. It's the blanket-condemnation of white motives/culture that's implicity in the "always offensive" hardline position that's so dishonest; it's an effort to dictate culture/language, rather than record it. Oddly, in the Fraser Canyon btw, "Boston" is a mild derisive (for a white, when used by a native) while "Chinaman" is not used in a derisive/malicious sense (to this day, Chinese run corner stores and restaurants in Lytton, Boston Bar etc and are part of the local social fabric). As for compiling all the citations of non-offensive use, historical and otherwise, that's original research and can't be done in Wikipedia (and Hong knows it, even though he knows such examples exist) and there's no way the p.c.-run academic cabals will ever discuss this, or any other related topic, honestly. So that, to me, is one of the failings of Wikipedia; fallback positions go to the written spewings of highly-credentialed folks even when they're wrong or half-informed. e.g. Models of migration to the New World is all citable; but the stuff on BC is outdated and inconsistent with what we've learned in the last few years (archaeological sites at the old water level, 100m down or 100' down, are turning up former human habitation down there...); but like Barbeau and Levi-Strauss and Boas, such material can still be cited; even though shown to be wrong since. Won't happen with "Chinaman", short of somebody doing a really good book on the history of English dialects in BC (which will never happen), so actual reality, being "officially uncitable", can slip forever into oblivion.... Skookum1 20:33, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
I don't suppose I could get you to adapt the new citations I just put on Talk:Chinaman, i.e. of other/older dictionaries than those HQG cited. What I may do here is take a bunch of my casual usages and put them on the Wiktionary entry's talkpage; that's not citable here and it's time-consuming but there's a lot of such examples...but in the meantime, the integration of the older dictionaries which make no mention of offensiveness seems valid to integrate into the text; but it's so tangled right now I'd prefer someone a little tighter with the syntax have a go at it (and also so HGQ has less of a good time reverting whatever changes you make).. Skookum1 20:39, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
Could you check out the Rock Springs Massacre page and refs, any comment would be appreciated. And, if it's not too much trouble, could you make the comments on the peer review? IvoShandor 15:45, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
Skookum1, Wikipedians are supposed to assume that other editors have high intelligence, so I'll take that assumption with you and assume that you know the difference between right and wrong, between the right time to use wry humor and the wrong time. In heated arguments such as these there is no reason to use such language as telling people to get glasses. Stop the personal attacks, or you will be blocked. Thank you. Xiner ( talk, email) 01:57, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
Alas, no. Mus musculus is but a common house mouse. Perhaps I should be afraid of monsters? -- Mus Musculus 15:26, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
You currently appear to be engaged in an edit war according to the reverts you have made on Chinaman (racial term). If you continue, you may be blocked from editing. Please do not repeatedly revert edits, but use the talk page to work towards wording and content which gains a consensus among editors. Thank you.
Be careful, you're getting sucked into a revert war. Xiner ( talk, email) 18:52, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
Skookum1, sockpuppet complaints should be filed according to WP:SOCK.
The 3RR rules does not distinguish between which part of an article is reverted. So technically both of you could be blocked now (the IP block would be a simple matter of a range block, as it looks like the person's editing from one range only. That'd also take out any registered users operating from that range.
Btw, I'm not sure what you mean by "admins have no part in content disputes". If you read WP:ADMIN, admins are just normal editors. Xiner ( talk, email) 20:24, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
I had a run-in a few months ago with HQG about an article I wrote, and so I know how difficult he can be to deal with. I am firmly in support of a balanced approach to terms such as 'Chinaman,' and when it comes to assisting you in matters involving HQG being difficult, would be happy to help. But, at the moment the Chinaman article has been locked to editing, and so there is not much I can there until it is unblocked. Zeus1234 21:22, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
I saw you photo request on the talk page. I was wondering if this might be them on the seawall. they all look the same to me. Bobanny 18:58, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
I dunno; could be the guys from Beatty Street, too, or even HMS Discovery (that's less likely as I don't think there's combat troops there, and those aren't naval combat gear, if there's any difference since the forces were merged that is). I'd only recognize them in their dress uniform, or their pipe band of course. My idea for an image for that article is their armoury maybe; although that of course will illustrate the armoury's own article, if/once there is one. Skookum1 19:06, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
A sensible subcategory for Streets only has been created under the new (and erroneously conjured up, imo) Category:Streets and squares in Vancouver which was finalized a few days ago. Now they want to get rid of this subcat. The insanity never ends. Please have a look. Cheers.-- Keefer4 03:01, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
Looks like some mass subcategory creation to add the appendage "people" was done recently by User:Bearcat, an administrator. I can see the reasoning behind it, to separate out notable individuals, into categories. But as we have discussed previously, along with User:Oldmanrivers I believe, this often doesn't make sense. A Category:Gitxsan people subcategory has been created. Which essentially is 'People of the Misty River people' category. I may nominate a move back to the main category, but only if it's worth bothering with. Yikes 3:30am time for bed... Nope, no more messin with sasquatches for tonight thats fer sure. :)-- Keefer4 10:38, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
Ok, it's set up now. I usually check it, 2-3 times daily. Unless it auto-notifies on wikipedia, I dunno. Anyway, later.--Keefer4 21:07, 26 March 2007 (UTC)