For anyone wondering, I'm the collection manager of a major US insect collection, and an actively publishing insect systematist. I work with several different insect orders, but focus on the Hymenoptera in particular. I am also intimately involved with efforts to create a standardized "Official" registry of zoological scientific names, and expect I may ultimately get involved in formal collaboration with Wikipedia.
Archive1 Archive2 Archive3 Archive4 Archive5 Archive6 Archive7 Archive8 Archive9
Hi Dyanega,
You have added to the Caucasian honey bee page the below info.
"...and ranges to the Tien Shan Mountains in Central Asia. where it was believed to represent a new subspecies ("pomonella" [1]), a claim which has not been supported. [2]"
But from re-reviewing the source you have cited for the phrase "a claim (A. m. pomonella is a new subspecies) which has not been supported", the "A revision of subspecies structure of western honey bee Apis mellifera" source article only lists A. m. pomonella as a subspecies in Table 1., and lists the A. m. caucasia as a subspecies in Table 1. and then only in a paragraph 5 of section 3, discussing its lineage, with neither referencing each other, nor raising doubt over A. m. pomonella taxon status as a subspecies:
Also after looking at the sources and sentence structure for your sentence "and ranges to the Tien Shan Mountains in Central Asia" I realize there is no source cited (the source beside the word "pomonella" is to support the claim its a new subspecies, not relating to its range).
Can you explain why you made these edits without a source and claims that are not supported but contradicted by the cited sources? I'm guessing I've missed something, maybe you are aware of more recent DNA analysis but you have given the wrong sources?
Apologies if I've made a mistake and thank you for your help. Bibby ( talk) 12:52, 19 January 2023 (UTC)
References
{{
cite journal}}
: CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (
link)
Hi there,
hope you can help me here; from going through Engel's list of A. mellifera subspecies, the A. m. meda is listed with the text;
“17. Apis mellifera meda Skorikov: The Median Honey Bee Distribution.—This race is most common in Iran and Iraq but does range into south- eastern Turkey and northern Syria.”
BUT when I search for it on the ICZN list I cannot find it, not even as a synonym, etc. So, IF my understanding is correct, we should remove A. m. meda from the subspecies list, and I'll create a wiki page for it, but treat it in the same way as Bombus incognitus.
But I'm afraid I've missed something, or have made a mistake? Bibby ( talk) 13:52, 21 January 2023 (UTC)
Colony collapse disorder has been nominated for a good article reassessment. If you are interested in the discussion, please participate by adding your comments to the reassessment page. If concerns are not addressed during the review period, the good article status may be removed from the article. —Femke 🐦 ( talk) 19:28, 21 January 2023 (UTC)
just a small thing for your info. your link for the International Bee Research Association (IBRA) on your website is dead, it should be https://ibra.org.uk/ Bibby ( talk) 12:08, 23 January 2023 (UTC)
Please look at Wikipedia:Vandalism to see what vandalism actually is. Good faith edits are not vandalism. I have a hard time believing that "long penis" is an actual species of moth. I suggest to provide better proof and sources to the page if it is an actual moth. Master106 ( talk) 20:15, 15 February 2023 (UTC)
Hi, when you moved the subject page from Phloeodes plicatus, you had noted that the (genus) name was changed in 2006. Currently, all the refs in the taxonbar (BioLib, BOLD, BugGuide, EoL, GBIF, ITIS NCBI) point to Phloeodes plicatus. I have access to García-París et al. (2006), where the species was transferred, but is there a more up-to-date reference for the accepted genus placement of this species? Loopy30 ( talk) 00:10, 1 April 2023 (UTC)
I must have visited Valid name (zoology) at least once before (I did add a WikiProject banner to the talk page), and I've probably visited it several times, but I guess I never paid any attention to the content. It's awful (especially the lead). Are you interested in making it not complete nonsense? I intend to investigate links to Valid name (botany); I don't see any reason why redirects to Validly published name in the context of botany should be linked to anything other than that title. Plantdrew ( talk) 02:48, 13 April 2023 (UTC)
Why did you remove my addition in Latrodectus and Latrodectus hesperus! The species is the one O claimed it to be and not a misidentified species as you claim. You have no justification but your own judgement. Please revert your edition! Rodolfosalinas ( talk) 23:30, 24 April 2023 (UTC)
I had proposed Notogramma cimiciforme and Notogramma cimiciformis be merged several months ago, but wasn't sure which spelling to use. They've now been merged. What spelling should be used? Plantdrew ( talk) 01:49, 26 April 2023 (UTC)
I see the source of the confusion: these other words have a single derivation, but "-gramma" could be a Latinized version of the Greek ending "-gramme", which is feminine. In the absence of an etymology, it's not possible to tell whether an author meant the neuter word or the feminine word, which is why they're all neuter by default. The cases I cited before have no such ambiguity, because the dictionary has a single derivation and a single gender. Dyanega ( talk) 18:42, 27 April 2023 (UTC)
To make matters more confusing, I discussed this case with other Commissioners, as it seems to be a fairly unusual situation where there are multiple dictionary meanings for a word, and they are of different gender - the Code does not actually give a specific course of action to be followed here. The general feeling is that if we were to draft a rule to cover the contingency, it would probably use the original author's combination as evidence, but others pointed out that just because that specific case isn't covered doesn't mean the present rules don't adequately allow for it. VERY strictly speaking, then, in the case of Notogramma then Article 30.1.1, saying that a word or suffix that exists in a Latin lexicon takes the gender found there, is the one that can be said to apply because the statement is true (so think of it as a flow chart). The argument against this is that this same ending can also be transliterated Greek, which is governed by Article 30.1.2, and the outcome of that rule is neuter. The same word can ALSO be Greek with a latinized ending, in which case it would be feminine under Article 30.1.3! If you read the Code like a flow chart, then you accept the first Article that applies, but whether this is appropriate is questionable. The Commissioners do not entirely agree how to treat this case. Under these circumstances, the consensus was that if the gender in the majority of recent works is neuter, to keep it neuter. This goes counter to my recommendation above. Basically, it's a mess with no absolutely clear-cut resolution. Dyanega ( talk) 14:51, 28 April 2023 (UTC)
While daggers are a valuable symbol in articles that discuss both extant and extinct taxa, they are purely redundant in articles on fully extinct groups as the prose of the article will already have covered that they are extinct. Please stop over-daggering extinct taxa articles.-- Kev min § 18:58, 11 June 2023 (UTC)
I've reverted your edit on this as I don't seen why my edit was reverted. I didn't remove or change any information that was already there, I added information that might have been useful to some readers. It was unsourced, but I don't think that's a reason to revert: I often see 'cite' requests next to unsourced information in Wikipedia articles. If you prefer a different pronunciation, please add it as an alternative. If you know of a source for the pronunciation of specific binomial terms in biology, I'd be interested in looking at it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sdoerr ( talk • contribs) 16:05, 19 July 2023 (UTC)
Could you reinstate my edit to Buprestidae, as I think it is correct. See its talk page for support. MightyWarrior ( talk) 18:37, 27 August 2023 (UTC)
Under Delta (wasp) you put "Undid revision 1174504230 by Sjl197 (talk); gracilior is not a valid taxon; has been synonymized under c. campaniforme - be careful not to use outdated source material". Is there a particular source/sources that publish that, and better yet detail it? If so, could you please direct me to those. The name is used in Srinivasan & Girish Kumar 2010 JoTT: 2(12): 1313-1322 as (miswritten) "Delta companiforme gracilior (Giordani Soika, 1986)" which is only matching an observation to that supposed name, so i was wary about its status. All this relates to a couple of observations on iNaturalist, if to add the name "gracilior" there or not, and here i followed user request who noted "gracilior" was not given in Gawas et al. 2020 checklist of India, but didn't know why absent - and neither do I. In general, I fear for future of many wiki pages where I anticipate other cases like this will become common, i.e. synonymised/moved/invalidated taxa will keep being added back by people like myself who are comparatively experienced in particular taxa. Thanks for the catch and i'll keep trying to be cautious. Sjl197 ( talk) 10:11, 9 September 2023 (UTC)
Hello, I came across this edit. Do you have examples of the abbreviation "L." being used in zoology? Thanks, Korg ( talk) 21:05, 29 October 2023 (UTC)
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You just did some ref work at Vulture bee, which is great. However, you marked these edits as minor. Please note that adding citations is never a minor edit. For details, please see Help:Minor, especially Help:Minor § What not to mark as minor changes. Keep on truckin' Paradoctor ( talk) 22:40, 30 December 2023 (UTC)
The article Glamis, California has been proposed for deletion because of the following concern:
Quite a grandiose (and poorly-sourced) article for a place that appears to be nothing more than a store and an RV storage lot surrounded by miles and miles of desert, in satellite images. Cited sources are insufficient for notability; no mention in Farr's history of Imperial County [8] makes it unlikely that this was a notable place. Certainly not a populated place. Fails WP:GEOLAND and WP:GNG.
While all constructive contributions to Wikipedia are appreciated, pages may be deleted for any of several reasons.
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WeirdNAnnoyed (
talk) 00:48, 13 January 2024 (UTC)
The Citation Barnstar | |
Thanks Simuliid talk 19:41, 7 February 2024 (UTC) |
Hello Dyanega!
Thank you for your consideration. We hope to see you around!
MediaWiki message delivery ( talk) 15:20, 22 February 2024 (UTC)
Hello. This is a message to let you know that one or more of your recent contributions, such as the edit(s) you made to Northern green anaconda, did not appear to be constructive and have been reverted. Please take some time to familiarise yourself with our policies and guidelines. You can find information about these at our welcome page which also provides further information about contributing constructively to this encyclopedia. If you only meant to make test edits, please use your sandbox for that. If you think I made a mistake, or if you have any questions, you may leave a message on my talk page. Things like directly citing the ICZN to draw their conclusions, saying "refused to acknowledge", weasel stuff like "all other issues aside", show a pretty clear POV and some level of OR. Neither the original claims nor the rebuttal should be treated as pure fact, but acknowledge in context. This is a good article and should respect neutrality requirements and Wikipedia:Words to watch. While paragraphs should be written regarding the nomenclatural dispute, there is no need to rush for this and use loaded terms. Chaotıċ Enby ( talk · contribs) 21:26, 17 March 2024 (UTC)
Please see my comments at User talk:Hahelen. I assume the page needs to be moved back and the taxobox restored to its original binomen. I just tried to keep the taxonomy error-tracking categories clear. Peter coxhead ( talk) 11:36, 5 April 2024 (UTC)
Both names are junior homonyms, unfortunately. Of the two names for the ciliate family, Gonostomatidae is by far the more common (in a Google Scholar search on papers published since 1986, it gets 254 hits, vs. 6 for Gonostomidae). In his Monograph of the Gonostomatidae and Kahliellidae (2011) Helmut Berger writes:
"Goode & Bean (1895, p. 97) defined the fish family Gonostomidae based on Gonostoma Rafinesque, 1810 3. Later, the spelling changed to Gonostomatidae (e.g., Kalabis & Schultz 1974, p. 184; Lancraft et al. 1988). However, the original spelling (Gonostomidae) of the fish family is also still in general use (e.g., Bowmaker & Wagner 2004, p. 2379). The ciliate family based on Gonostomum Sterki, 1878 was established twice, namely by Small & Lynn (1985) as Gonostomatidae, and by Culberson (1986) as Gonostomidae. Both ciliate names are therefore homonyms of the fish family. The final adjustment of this rather tricky situation needs the collaboration with a linguist, a specialist dealing with this fish-group who knows all about the nomenclature of this taxon, and the International Commission on Zoological Nomenclature (ICZN 1999, Article 55.3.1). Preliminary I suggest to use the original spelling of the fish family (Gonostomidae Goode & Bean, 1895) and the older version of the ciliate family (Gonostomatidae Small & Lynn, 1985). This simple solution prevents homonymy."
Since Berger is the leading expert on the group, and a very experienced taxonomist, I'll change the name back to Gonostomatidae, if that's OK with you. Deuterostome (Talk) 13:54, 6 April 2024 (UTC)
This is the Article that determines the spelling of the fish family:
29.3. Determination of stem in names of type genera
The stem of a family-group name is based on the name of its type genus [Art. 63] and determined as follows.
29.3.1. If a generic name is or ends in a Greek or Latin word, or ends in a Greek or Latin suffix, the stem for the purposes of the Code is found by deleting the case ending of the appropriate genitive singular.
The fish family is based on the genus Gonostoma, which does in fact end in a Greek word, and the genitive singular of "stoma" is "stomatos" (στόμᾰ • (stóma) n (genitive στόμᾰτος); third declension). Therefore, under the ICZN, the fish family literally CANNOT be spelled "Gonostomidae" - this is a violation of Article 29.3.1, and the name MUST be spelled "Gonostomatidae", irrespective of any author ever spelling it any other way, including the author who first coined it. It is a mandatory spelling, not anything that is up to someone's discretion, linguistic preferences, or previous usage.
The ciliate family name falls under a different Article in the Code, namely Article 29.3.2:
29.3.2. If the name of a genus is or ends in a Greek word latinized with a change in ending, the stem is that appropriate to the latinized form, as determined in Article 29.3.1.
Example. In the generic name Leptocerus, of which the second part is latinized from the Greek word keras, the stem for the formation of the family-group name is Leptocer-, not Leptocerat-, as it would be if it were not latinized.
The ciliate genus name is Gonostomum, and has an ending that does not exist in Greek; it is explicitly a Greek word latinized with a change in ending. The stem derivation is therefore treated as if it were a Latin word, and not a Greek word, so instead of "Gonostomat-" it MUST be "Gonostom-" according to this Article. Again, this is mandatory. The ciliate name can never be spelled "Gonostomatidae", as it violates this Code Article.
Accordingly, the two names cannot be homonyms, because the Code mandates that they be spelled differently - and exactly the opposite of Berger's conclusion. If someone submits a petition to the Commission to do what Berger wants, and switch the spellings to the opposite of what the Code mandates, I doubt it would even make it to a vote - we review cases submitted to us, and this is so obvious an error on Berger's part that it would probably just be sent back to the authors explaining that there is no homonym that requires resolution. The fish family must be spelled Gonostomatidae and the ciliate family must be spelled Gonostomidae. It's actually very simple and straightforward. Dyanega ( talk) 20:31, 6 April 2024 (UTC)
I had recently noticed (1 day before yesterday) that you and a few other taxonomists had published and article regarding scaralis and a new genus. I would like to know whether you have photos of the other scaralis species (i.e. excluding inbio, which I could find in the paper). (especially photos species in the wild will give mor relevant diagnostic features for identification). I would also like to know that what is the difference between scaralis neotropicalis and picta. Also want to know the difference between auchalea pandora and amanita magnifica, which I believe are potential synonyms. Uploader1234567890 ( talk) 08:01, 23 April 2024 (UTC)
The problems with Scaralis fluvialis and Auchalea annulata are the same: Lallemand's descriptions have no accompanying illustrations, and his type specimens are not easily accessible. Case in point: his description of Auchalea annulata mentions no feature that would allow it to be distinguished from Auchalea pandora. Until someone compares the two respective type specimens, it is impossible to know for sure whether Auchalea annulata is a valid species or not. I would bet money that it is not. Also, I found the original description of Amantia magnifica, and it specifically states the basal half of the hindwings is golden yellow, and that the head and thorax are green with red marks. The images in iNaturalist are very clearly misidentified, and are Auchalea. Dyanega ( talk) 18:01, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
For anyone wondering, I'm the collection manager of a major US insect collection, and an actively publishing insect systematist. I work with several different insect orders, but focus on the Hymenoptera in particular. I am also intimately involved with efforts to create a standardized "Official" registry of zoological scientific names, and expect I may ultimately get involved in formal collaboration with Wikipedia.
Archive1 Archive2 Archive3 Archive4 Archive5 Archive6 Archive7 Archive8 Archive9
Hi Dyanega,
You have added to the Caucasian honey bee page the below info.
"...and ranges to the Tien Shan Mountains in Central Asia. where it was believed to represent a new subspecies ("pomonella" [1]), a claim which has not been supported. [2]"
But from re-reviewing the source you have cited for the phrase "a claim (A. m. pomonella is a new subspecies) which has not been supported", the "A revision of subspecies structure of western honey bee Apis mellifera" source article only lists A. m. pomonella as a subspecies in Table 1., and lists the A. m. caucasia as a subspecies in Table 1. and then only in a paragraph 5 of section 3, discussing its lineage, with neither referencing each other, nor raising doubt over A. m. pomonella taxon status as a subspecies:
Also after looking at the sources and sentence structure for your sentence "and ranges to the Tien Shan Mountains in Central Asia" I realize there is no source cited (the source beside the word "pomonella" is to support the claim its a new subspecies, not relating to its range).
Can you explain why you made these edits without a source and claims that are not supported but contradicted by the cited sources? I'm guessing I've missed something, maybe you are aware of more recent DNA analysis but you have given the wrong sources?
Apologies if I've made a mistake and thank you for your help. Bibby ( talk) 12:52, 19 January 2023 (UTC)
References
{{
cite journal}}
: CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (
link)
Hi there,
hope you can help me here; from going through Engel's list of A. mellifera subspecies, the A. m. meda is listed with the text;
“17. Apis mellifera meda Skorikov: The Median Honey Bee Distribution.—This race is most common in Iran and Iraq but does range into south- eastern Turkey and northern Syria.”
BUT when I search for it on the ICZN list I cannot find it, not even as a synonym, etc. So, IF my understanding is correct, we should remove A. m. meda from the subspecies list, and I'll create a wiki page for it, but treat it in the same way as Bombus incognitus.
But I'm afraid I've missed something, or have made a mistake? Bibby ( talk) 13:52, 21 January 2023 (UTC)
Colony collapse disorder has been nominated for a good article reassessment. If you are interested in the discussion, please participate by adding your comments to the reassessment page. If concerns are not addressed during the review period, the good article status may be removed from the article. —Femke 🐦 ( talk) 19:28, 21 January 2023 (UTC)
just a small thing for your info. your link for the International Bee Research Association (IBRA) on your website is dead, it should be https://ibra.org.uk/ Bibby ( talk) 12:08, 23 January 2023 (UTC)
Please look at Wikipedia:Vandalism to see what vandalism actually is. Good faith edits are not vandalism. I have a hard time believing that "long penis" is an actual species of moth. I suggest to provide better proof and sources to the page if it is an actual moth. Master106 ( talk) 20:15, 15 February 2023 (UTC)
Hi, when you moved the subject page from Phloeodes plicatus, you had noted that the (genus) name was changed in 2006. Currently, all the refs in the taxonbar (BioLib, BOLD, BugGuide, EoL, GBIF, ITIS NCBI) point to Phloeodes plicatus. I have access to García-París et al. (2006), where the species was transferred, but is there a more up-to-date reference for the accepted genus placement of this species? Loopy30 ( talk) 00:10, 1 April 2023 (UTC)
I must have visited Valid name (zoology) at least once before (I did add a WikiProject banner to the talk page), and I've probably visited it several times, but I guess I never paid any attention to the content. It's awful (especially the lead). Are you interested in making it not complete nonsense? I intend to investigate links to Valid name (botany); I don't see any reason why redirects to Validly published name in the context of botany should be linked to anything other than that title. Plantdrew ( talk) 02:48, 13 April 2023 (UTC)
Why did you remove my addition in Latrodectus and Latrodectus hesperus! The species is the one O claimed it to be and not a misidentified species as you claim. You have no justification but your own judgement. Please revert your edition! Rodolfosalinas ( talk) 23:30, 24 April 2023 (UTC)
I had proposed Notogramma cimiciforme and Notogramma cimiciformis be merged several months ago, but wasn't sure which spelling to use. They've now been merged. What spelling should be used? Plantdrew ( talk) 01:49, 26 April 2023 (UTC)
I see the source of the confusion: these other words have a single derivation, but "-gramma" could be a Latinized version of the Greek ending "-gramme", which is feminine. In the absence of an etymology, it's not possible to tell whether an author meant the neuter word or the feminine word, which is why they're all neuter by default. The cases I cited before have no such ambiguity, because the dictionary has a single derivation and a single gender. Dyanega ( talk) 18:42, 27 April 2023 (UTC)
To make matters more confusing, I discussed this case with other Commissioners, as it seems to be a fairly unusual situation where there are multiple dictionary meanings for a word, and they are of different gender - the Code does not actually give a specific course of action to be followed here. The general feeling is that if we were to draft a rule to cover the contingency, it would probably use the original author's combination as evidence, but others pointed out that just because that specific case isn't covered doesn't mean the present rules don't adequately allow for it. VERY strictly speaking, then, in the case of Notogramma then Article 30.1.1, saying that a word or suffix that exists in a Latin lexicon takes the gender found there, is the one that can be said to apply because the statement is true (so think of it as a flow chart). The argument against this is that this same ending can also be transliterated Greek, which is governed by Article 30.1.2, and the outcome of that rule is neuter. The same word can ALSO be Greek with a latinized ending, in which case it would be feminine under Article 30.1.3! If you read the Code like a flow chart, then you accept the first Article that applies, but whether this is appropriate is questionable. The Commissioners do not entirely agree how to treat this case. Under these circumstances, the consensus was that if the gender in the majority of recent works is neuter, to keep it neuter. This goes counter to my recommendation above. Basically, it's a mess with no absolutely clear-cut resolution. Dyanega ( talk) 14:51, 28 April 2023 (UTC)
While daggers are a valuable symbol in articles that discuss both extant and extinct taxa, they are purely redundant in articles on fully extinct groups as the prose of the article will already have covered that they are extinct. Please stop over-daggering extinct taxa articles.-- Kev min § 18:58, 11 June 2023 (UTC)
I've reverted your edit on this as I don't seen why my edit was reverted. I didn't remove or change any information that was already there, I added information that might have been useful to some readers. It was unsourced, but I don't think that's a reason to revert: I often see 'cite' requests next to unsourced information in Wikipedia articles. If you prefer a different pronunciation, please add it as an alternative. If you know of a source for the pronunciation of specific binomial terms in biology, I'd be interested in looking at it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sdoerr ( talk • contribs) 16:05, 19 July 2023 (UTC)
Could you reinstate my edit to Buprestidae, as I think it is correct. See its talk page for support. MightyWarrior ( talk) 18:37, 27 August 2023 (UTC)
Under Delta (wasp) you put "Undid revision 1174504230 by Sjl197 (talk); gracilior is not a valid taxon; has been synonymized under c. campaniforme - be careful not to use outdated source material". Is there a particular source/sources that publish that, and better yet detail it? If so, could you please direct me to those. The name is used in Srinivasan & Girish Kumar 2010 JoTT: 2(12): 1313-1322 as (miswritten) "Delta companiforme gracilior (Giordani Soika, 1986)" which is only matching an observation to that supposed name, so i was wary about its status. All this relates to a couple of observations on iNaturalist, if to add the name "gracilior" there or not, and here i followed user request who noted "gracilior" was not given in Gawas et al. 2020 checklist of India, but didn't know why absent - and neither do I. In general, I fear for future of many wiki pages where I anticipate other cases like this will become common, i.e. synonymised/moved/invalidated taxa will keep being added back by people like myself who are comparatively experienced in particular taxa. Thanks for the catch and i'll keep trying to be cautious. Sjl197 ( talk) 10:11, 9 September 2023 (UTC)
Hello, I came across this edit. Do you have examples of the abbreviation "L." being used in zoology? Thanks, Korg ( talk) 21:05, 29 October 2023 (UTC)
Hello! Voting in the 2023 Arbitration Committee elections is now open until 23:59 (UTC) on Monday, 11 December 2023. All eligible users are allowed to vote. Users with alternate accounts may only vote once.
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You just did some ref work at Vulture bee, which is great. However, you marked these edits as minor. Please note that adding citations is never a minor edit. For details, please see Help:Minor, especially Help:Minor § What not to mark as minor changes. Keep on truckin' Paradoctor ( talk) 22:40, 30 December 2023 (UTC)
The article Glamis, California has been proposed for deletion because of the following concern:
Quite a grandiose (and poorly-sourced) article for a place that appears to be nothing more than a store and an RV storage lot surrounded by miles and miles of desert, in satellite images. Cited sources are insufficient for notability; no mention in Farr's history of Imperial County [8] makes it unlikely that this was a notable place. Certainly not a populated place. Fails WP:GEOLAND and WP:GNG.
While all constructive contributions to Wikipedia are appreciated, pages may be deleted for any of several reasons.
You may prevent the proposed deletion by removing the {{proposed deletion/dated}}
notice, but please explain why in your
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Please consider improving the page to address the issues raised. Removing {{proposed deletion/dated}}
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articles for deletion allows discussion to reach
consensus for deletion.
WeirdNAnnoyed (
talk) 00:48, 13 January 2024 (UTC)
The Citation Barnstar | |
Thanks Simuliid talk 19:41, 7 February 2024 (UTC) |
Hello Dyanega!
Thank you for your consideration. We hope to see you around!
MediaWiki message delivery ( talk) 15:20, 22 February 2024 (UTC)
Hello. This is a message to let you know that one or more of your recent contributions, such as the edit(s) you made to Northern green anaconda, did not appear to be constructive and have been reverted. Please take some time to familiarise yourself with our policies and guidelines. You can find information about these at our welcome page which also provides further information about contributing constructively to this encyclopedia. If you only meant to make test edits, please use your sandbox for that. If you think I made a mistake, or if you have any questions, you may leave a message on my talk page. Things like directly citing the ICZN to draw their conclusions, saying "refused to acknowledge", weasel stuff like "all other issues aside", show a pretty clear POV and some level of OR. Neither the original claims nor the rebuttal should be treated as pure fact, but acknowledge in context. This is a good article and should respect neutrality requirements and Wikipedia:Words to watch. While paragraphs should be written regarding the nomenclatural dispute, there is no need to rush for this and use loaded terms. Chaotıċ Enby ( talk · contribs) 21:26, 17 March 2024 (UTC)
Please see my comments at User talk:Hahelen. I assume the page needs to be moved back and the taxobox restored to its original binomen. I just tried to keep the taxonomy error-tracking categories clear. Peter coxhead ( talk) 11:36, 5 April 2024 (UTC)
Both names are junior homonyms, unfortunately. Of the two names for the ciliate family, Gonostomatidae is by far the more common (in a Google Scholar search on papers published since 1986, it gets 254 hits, vs. 6 for Gonostomidae). In his Monograph of the Gonostomatidae and Kahliellidae (2011) Helmut Berger writes:
"Goode & Bean (1895, p. 97) defined the fish family Gonostomidae based on Gonostoma Rafinesque, 1810 3. Later, the spelling changed to Gonostomatidae (e.g., Kalabis & Schultz 1974, p. 184; Lancraft et al. 1988). However, the original spelling (Gonostomidae) of the fish family is also still in general use (e.g., Bowmaker & Wagner 2004, p. 2379). The ciliate family based on Gonostomum Sterki, 1878 was established twice, namely by Small & Lynn (1985) as Gonostomatidae, and by Culberson (1986) as Gonostomidae. Both ciliate names are therefore homonyms of the fish family. The final adjustment of this rather tricky situation needs the collaboration with a linguist, a specialist dealing with this fish-group who knows all about the nomenclature of this taxon, and the International Commission on Zoological Nomenclature (ICZN 1999, Article 55.3.1). Preliminary I suggest to use the original spelling of the fish family (Gonostomidae Goode & Bean, 1895) and the older version of the ciliate family (Gonostomatidae Small & Lynn, 1985). This simple solution prevents homonymy."
Since Berger is the leading expert on the group, and a very experienced taxonomist, I'll change the name back to Gonostomatidae, if that's OK with you. Deuterostome (Talk) 13:54, 6 April 2024 (UTC)
This is the Article that determines the spelling of the fish family:
29.3. Determination of stem in names of type genera
The stem of a family-group name is based on the name of its type genus [Art. 63] and determined as follows.
29.3.1. If a generic name is or ends in a Greek or Latin word, or ends in a Greek or Latin suffix, the stem for the purposes of the Code is found by deleting the case ending of the appropriate genitive singular.
The fish family is based on the genus Gonostoma, which does in fact end in a Greek word, and the genitive singular of "stoma" is "stomatos" (στόμᾰ • (stóma) n (genitive στόμᾰτος); third declension). Therefore, under the ICZN, the fish family literally CANNOT be spelled "Gonostomidae" - this is a violation of Article 29.3.1, and the name MUST be spelled "Gonostomatidae", irrespective of any author ever spelling it any other way, including the author who first coined it. It is a mandatory spelling, not anything that is up to someone's discretion, linguistic preferences, or previous usage.
The ciliate family name falls under a different Article in the Code, namely Article 29.3.2:
29.3.2. If the name of a genus is or ends in a Greek word latinized with a change in ending, the stem is that appropriate to the latinized form, as determined in Article 29.3.1.
Example. In the generic name Leptocerus, of which the second part is latinized from the Greek word keras, the stem for the formation of the family-group name is Leptocer-, not Leptocerat-, as it would be if it were not latinized.
The ciliate genus name is Gonostomum, and has an ending that does not exist in Greek; it is explicitly a Greek word latinized with a change in ending. The stem derivation is therefore treated as if it were a Latin word, and not a Greek word, so instead of "Gonostomat-" it MUST be "Gonostom-" according to this Article. Again, this is mandatory. The ciliate name can never be spelled "Gonostomatidae", as it violates this Code Article.
Accordingly, the two names cannot be homonyms, because the Code mandates that they be spelled differently - and exactly the opposite of Berger's conclusion. If someone submits a petition to the Commission to do what Berger wants, and switch the spellings to the opposite of what the Code mandates, I doubt it would even make it to a vote - we review cases submitted to us, and this is so obvious an error on Berger's part that it would probably just be sent back to the authors explaining that there is no homonym that requires resolution. The fish family must be spelled Gonostomatidae and the ciliate family must be spelled Gonostomidae. It's actually very simple and straightforward. Dyanega ( talk) 20:31, 6 April 2024 (UTC)
I had recently noticed (1 day before yesterday) that you and a few other taxonomists had published and article regarding scaralis and a new genus. I would like to know whether you have photos of the other scaralis species (i.e. excluding inbio, which I could find in the paper). (especially photos species in the wild will give mor relevant diagnostic features for identification). I would also like to know that what is the difference between scaralis neotropicalis and picta. Also want to know the difference between auchalea pandora and amanita magnifica, which I believe are potential synonyms. Uploader1234567890 ( talk) 08:01, 23 April 2024 (UTC)
The problems with Scaralis fluvialis and Auchalea annulata are the same: Lallemand's descriptions have no accompanying illustrations, and his type specimens are not easily accessible. Case in point: his description of Auchalea annulata mentions no feature that would allow it to be distinguished from Auchalea pandora. Until someone compares the two respective type specimens, it is impossible to know for sure whether Auchalea annulata is a valid species or not. I would bet money that it is not. Also, I found the original description of Amantia magnifica, and it specifically states the basal half of the hindwings is golden yellow, and that the head and thorax are green with red marks. The images in iNaturalist are very clearly misidentified, and are Auchalea. Dyanega ( talk) 18:01, 26 April 2024 (UTC)