This page is the talk archives of the Prem Rawat proposal pages.
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Proposal #2I've posted revised text at User:Steve Crossin/Mediation/Prem Rawat/Proposal1#Proposal 2. It includes additional information and tightens up the writing. We can discuss it here. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 20:42, 27 May 2008 (UTC)
Proposal #3
≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 01:11, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
Prop. 4I've added more detail about the investigation and the jewelry. I've sent you the news source. I left it "divine bank" since that seems to be the more commonly-used name ("Divine Health Care Center", "Divine Employment Agency", etc.). Apparently many enterprises were called "divine". ·:· Will Beback ·:· 04:38, 28 May 2008 (UTC) I also trimmed and added material: Lawyers representing the DLM reported that one of the travelers forgot to declare the goods, and that the goods seized did not belong to Rawat. [1] to Secretaries took responsibility for the valuables and for failing to declare them. [2] [1] . That incorporates two aspects, Apter's and the Indian secretary, and trims a redundant declaration that the material didn't belong to Rawat. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 10:33, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
Prop. 5Small tweaks to stay closer to the sources. Are we there now, Will? ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 16:20, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
If so, my talk page is → that way. :D. Steve Crossin (talk) (review) 17:20, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
DLM articleThe DLM article has similar content at Divine_Light_Mission#Festivals. Once we have agreement on a version for the main article, we could do a short summary of it and replace the current content at the DLM article, for consistency. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 15:42, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
Ready?It's been several days since the last comment. If there are no objections I'll suggest that this material be added to the article. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 09:04, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
The current proposal #5 is the result of discussions related to providing context for the incident, and could certainly be tightened as per the concerns raised by Momento and Rumiton. I would appreciate if Momento and or Rumiton present an alternative proposal based on the work available in proposal #5 that could be discussed. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 15:52, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
Straw poll Prop 5Shall we add proposal #5 to the article? Please sign your name under the position you support, and please add a (hopefully brief and well thought out) comment. Extended commentary should be placed below, in the section marked "Discussion", though brief commentary can be interspersed. Support Prop 5
Oppose Prop 5
DiscussionI'm leaning towards support, but before I throw my straw in, a comment an a question.
"Tabloid"
Proposal #6This version is shorter, keeping the essence of the incident without unnecessary detail. Submitted as an attempt to reach consensus. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 01:48, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
Prop 7While I appreciate what Jossi's trying to do, I think he might have taken too many valuable details out. I did a bit of copy-editing, changed the seven jumbo jets to several (as was mentioned above, reports vary and the key thing [to me] is the 2500 people...that's a lot of people no matter how many jets they filled and that message carries), and other things that slip my mind at the moment. Mael-Num ( talk) 02:38, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
Prop 10I supported Proposal 5, even though I initially felt it was too long, because it covered more than just the customs incident. Proposal 10 covers the same ground. 1972 Hans Jayanti: approx 40 words. If this stands on it own as a notable event, and not just context for a description of the customs incident, then fine, otherwise I suggest shortening it. If it stays, how about placing a minor section break after the information about the festival, so that the remainder of this section is short and tightly focused on the customs incident? Rawat’s Mother: I felt that the conflict between between Rawat and his Mother in version 5 justified this inclusion, but not in version 10 without the ‘cursing’ reference. There should be either a full reference to his mother’s comments or none at all. If we want to cut this down, then I suggest removing the reference to the 1973 tour after posting the bond. The point is that Rawat had to post a bond – not the details of where he was planning to go once the bond was posted. 82.44.221.140 ( talk) 16:52, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
How is this text
This text:
I propose User:Steve Crossin/Mediation/Prem Rawat/Proposal1#Proposal 10 as a compromise proposal. It contains the essence of the incident. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 02:11, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
Prop 11I've removed "reportedly" from the attendance as all of this is "reportedly". And reordered so that the "charges were not laid" is next to the people who may have been charged. And connected Mataji's criticisms to the apology that was given for them. Momento ( talk) 00:22, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
<<< to much of a do about not nothing. The incident can be reported without unnecessary detail that detracts from the rest of the article by giving it too much weight. Let's move on, shall we? I believe Proposal #10 may be a version that we can all live with. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 02:14, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
Prop. 12I've posted Prop. 12. which is shorter yet. I addressed the concerns I'd posted above, about: the secretaries, the international investigation, the "valuables", the Mata Ji comments, plus the bond amount, was removed yet again. I hope this covers the length issues raies by Momento, Jayen, and Rumiton. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 05:07, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
This version is getting closer to a suitable compromise that we may all live with. What is needed is some tweaking:
If these aspects are fixed, I would support this version, despite the fact that it is not my preferred version. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 16:20, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
The statement by Will that I've made the changes proposed by 82. finally pushed me over the line to create an account, though only a pseudonym for the moment.. This comment is to enable you all to make the connection, so you know who I am. Savlonn ( talk) 21:23, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
Prop #13Would this work? ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 22:20, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
<<< I honestly don't see why his age is important for this paragraph. In all honesty I do not understand why you don't see the importance. That concerns me a great deal... As for the "international investigation" that is editorializing. An "international investigation" has undesirable connotations, and innuendo that you may have missed as well. I stand by the text I proposed in 13, which is close to the source. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 02:03, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
Prop #14How about this?
The quotes from Daily Mail, AP, Stars & Stripes, etc. are clear and unamibguous; an international investigation was undertaken. Will has already compromised beyond what I feel is necessary by dropping the reference to 'international' I will not accept any further weakening of this point as I strongly agree it then becomes a distortion that doesn't agree wih the sources. Stating that such an investigation occured is not 'editorializing' (implication of opinion making) but an impartial, self-evident summary of the sourced information. Savlonn ( talk) 22:33, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
ProgressUser:Steve Crossin/Mediation/Prem Rawat: 1972 Hans Jayanti paragraph, introducing version 6/7 hybrid per User:Steve Crossin/Mediation/Prem Rawat/Proposal1 - in order to start on the ref finetuning and other cpedit [12] -- Francis Schonken ( talk) 08:24, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
Way premature, Francis. I am not sure what the significance of adding this material to the "sandbox" article is, but you have no consensus for it. It is just one of several proposals. I much prefer Proposal 10. Let's talk about that. Rumiton ( talk) 15:27, 7 June 2008 (UTC) In fact, your sandbox edits over the last few hours appear to be making a mockery of this entire consensus-seeking process. Please revert them yourself and carry on discussing proposed changes. Thank you. Rumiton ( talk) 15:32, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
How does this look?A revision of the investigation conducted by Parliament, Gandhi, et al. The investigation, which continued into the summer of 1973, was discussed in the Indian Parliament and Prime Minister Indira Gandhi, was reported to have taken an interest in the matter. Indian diplomatic missions in several countries, including the United States and the United Kindom, were asked to investigate the Divine Light Mission's capital assets and bank accounts abroad, which were restricted for Indian nationals under Indian law. Mael-Num ( talk) 00:28, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
P1.15Is this good enough? It's P1.13 plus the text discussed above. Can we agree and move on? ·:· Will Beback ·:· 08:48, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
Just note, I can make a spot for Proposal 16 if needed, but by now, I think it would be best if the current proposal is worked through until we have a consensus for the edit. I still have a request, Prem Rawat is unprotected, as I do agree that it was no longer necessary, however that I still be the one who determines the consensus, and make the edit myself? Probably the best way to do it, I think. Steve Crossin (talk) (email) 19:23, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
Proposal 16Since the investigation also looked into Rawat's taxes I think the formulation I've proposed is more accurate: The finances of Rawat and the DLM at home and abroad were investigated... P1.16 makes it appear that the investigation was solely into DLM assets. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 00:32, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
Proposal 16 is ok for me. Savlonn ( talk) 18:59, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
Proposal to go ahead with the editLet's do this edit, as it has all the traits of having reached consensus. Sure. I am not 100% happy with all of it, but I can live with it. Unless there are serious objections substantiated by solid arguments, I propose the edit is made by Steve at 00:00 UTC June 14. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 14:54, 13 June 2008 (UTC)
Side discussion
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I've read excerpts of her work, and I don't think wording like this
is not really an accurate appraisal of her work. It sounds as if her conclusions were that he isn't a charismatic authority figure, and I don't think that's the case. Has anyone else read her? Mael-Num ( talk) 18:07, 27 May 2008 (UTC)
You can add a second, alternate wording to the proposals page. Steve Crossin (talk) (review) 18:26, 27 May 2008 (UTC)
-- Francis Schonken ( talk) 04:55, 30 May 2008 (UTC)The master in person emerged both theologically and experientially as neither the sole focus nor the unique generator of charisma. (section "Discussion" - 2nd sentence of 1st paragraph)
-- Francis Schonken ( talk) 04:55, 30 May 2008 (UTC)Western devotees reorganized the ritual by lining up the devotees beforehand, seating Guru Maharaj Ji higher up so his feet, now at chest level, would be quicker to kiss. They even experimented: once they had two lines, one passing by each foot; and once they set Guru Maharaj Ji ,and j his throne on a jeep which drove slowly by two miles of lined-up devotees. They finally settled on a long, cloth-draped blue tunnel through which devotees could file silently, leaving the world's mentality, stepping into the divine route to their guru's presence. (section "Darshan of the Living Master" - end of 1st paragraph)
As no counter proposals have bee submitted, I will ask this for material to be added to the article via edit-protected template as agreed. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 15:08, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
Perhaps I should do it Jossi? Also, note that two users are either still blocked, or not yet aware of these precedings. Perhaps a few days should be given first. Steve Crossin (talk) (review) 15:14, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
Okay, just one other thing, I'd prefer to do the editprotected requests myself. That way, I can say, "please insert proposal X into article Y per consensus at page Z.". And then, if there's disagreements, they can take the issue up with me, not a party in the case. Okay with you? Steve Crossin (talk) (review) 15:36, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
Personally, I see no hurry. Although I bet after this case is eventually over, I will be known on Wikipedia as that guy who mediated Prem Rawat. :P. Anyway, I agree, it's best to wait until there's a clear consensus. I've also requested the users be unblocked so they can enter the discussion. (their block has expired). I think edit warring is impossible on the
Prem Rawat article, don't you?
Steve Crossin
(talk)
(review) 16:16, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
Section is good, I tidied it up a bit. Jayen 466 10:59, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
As you might have remarked on your watchlists I've been trying to work with Geaves' material this morning, that is: Geaves, Ron. "Globalization, charisma, innovation, and tradition: An exploration of the transformations in the organisational vehicles for the transmission of the teachings of Prem Rawat (Maharaji)" in Journal of Alternative Spiritualities and New Age Studies - Volume 2, 2006, ISBN 978-1-4196-2696-5 Parameter error in {{ ISBN}}: checksum, pp. 44-62. Web copy at asanas.org.uk
Now, there's something I'm not very clear about how to place it. As it pertains to the charismatic leadership and routinization topics relevant to the "Proposal2" page, I'd appreciate any help offered:(p. 56) This brings the paper to the issue of authority.
Weber’s ideal charismatic authority, was not only unpredictable and unstable, requiring routinisation in order to provide continuity, but was also centred in the personal qualities of the charismatic leader and demanding obedience. Charisma and tradition are seen as having an antagonistic relationship with each other. Prem Rawat could be defined as charismatic only in the latter sense. He does not demand obedience, in that no outer requirements or prohibitions are placed on those taught the techniques.
Far from wanting to override the assertions of an established professor with OR, I'm just asking a question: how do we tackle this when writing an encyclopedia? Obviously, one of the possible answers to that question could be: "NOT", let's leave that fishy business aside. But wouldn't that be a bit of an unsatisfactory answer? -- Francis Schonken ( talk) 13:46, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
(outdent) Surely Geaves is arguing that Weber’s theory of charisma does not apply to Rawat, except in the very limited sense that (according to Geaves) Rawat is antagonistic to tradition:
Prem Rawat’s teachings make no reference to any traditional authority, neither person nor text. The shift in language, directly appealing to human understandings of their own existential dilemma, removed the earlier and more Indian- orientated style of a traditional Sant idiom that could be grounded in reference to previous sacred figures and texts, providing authenticity by comparison and asserting that the message conformed to the ‘real’ meaning of sacred text. This brings the paper to the issue of authority. Weber’s ideal charismatic authority, was not only unpredictable and unstable, requiring routinisation in order to provide continuity, but was also centred in the personal qualities of the charismatic leader and demanding obedience. Charisma and tradition are seen as having an antagonistic relationship with each other. Prem Rawat could be defined as charismatic only in the latter sense. He does not demand obedience, in that no outer requirements or prohibitions are placed on those taught the techniques. The simple axiom, “If you like it, practice it, if you don’t, try something else,” is applied on frequent occasions in his public discourses. Neither does Prem Rawat regard himself as an exemplary leader, a role often ascribed to religious founders. I don’t see how this does not stand in direct contradiction to what the other sources are saying.
In respect of my criticism of Geaves, it is quite possible that I’m confused about the application of Weberian theory – but I don’t think in that particular case that I am; however others have also questioned the implications of authoritarian versus charismatic leadership aspects of that article so some form of amendment would be desirable if only for the sake of clarity. I fully accept that Rawat is in Weberian terms (and in commonly understood usage) a charismatic leader. Regarding Geaves academic standing as relevant as a WP:reference, Geaves is not as such a ‘religious scholar’ in that WP redirects Religious Scholar to Theology, Geaves being neither a theologian nor a philosopher, but more closely a ‘sociologist of Religion’, – this is from a personal webpage published by Geaves some years ago. “ I do have a personal position. I am an 'experiential essentialist' in the line of Professor Ninian Smart, Professsor Geoffrey Parrinder and other eminent pioneers of my discipline. I am very proud and honoured to follow in their footsteps, especially after being awarded my Chair in Religious Studies this year. My ethics are simple - the study of religion is a critical valuation that is combined with a sensitive grasp of world views. There is nothing in the article that contradicts this position.” And from Ninian Smart “Religious Studies as a non-confessional, methodologically agnostic discipline takes its place in the secular academy, where it draw heavily on anthropology, sociology, psychology, history, archeology, and other disciplines. At bottom, it has a place in the public or state sector because, as an aspect of human experience, it is also the study of people--of what they believe, why they believe and act as they do, both individually and within society.” Geaves’ degree was in Humanities and his Phd clearly followed a ‘social sciences’ approach, so it is difficult to argue that sociology is not his ‘specialty’, albeit that he has specialised in the study of religion.
I think your identification of Geaves as “someone heavily contributing to the routinization efforts” is relevant to the question of using Geaves as source for the Rawat articles because it sets very clearly Geaves own role as an interested party in the Rawat history. The same area of problem would arise if Joseph Goebbels was to be quoted as if he were a disinterested source in a biography of Hitler. In any event your Proposal 4. avoids all the major problems and although I think the Pilarscyk quote was useful perhaps it is simply safer to go with what you have.-- Nik Wright2 ( talk) 09:30, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
I've read through her work a couple of times now, and I think I'd like to take a crack at a summary, but just focus on her for the moment. Should I do that here, or should I take up a prop slot on the "User Page"? Mael-Num ( talk) 21:13, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
Unless there are objections substantiated with solid arguments, or any alternative proposals, it is time to make this edit per proposal #3. It is about time. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 14:22, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
I put my take on DuPertuis up at Prop 2.15. I dropped the part about members taking the "Do-It-Yourself" approach to enlightenment, because even though her conclusions are very interesting, it says more about the DLM movement of the 70's than it does about Rawat himself. For what it's worth, I did a little rework of that section as well, and I'd like to see her cited somewhere in the DLM article, because like I said, I think it is interesting stuff:
Maybe combining some of that back into the piece and omitting some of Prop 15 as it is right now would be more to peoples' tastes, or even omitting this entirely and just keeping what we have already. I'm completely open to all suggestions. Mael-Num ( talk) 22:56, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
All the same, maybe wording to this effect?
It's a subtle difference, but she seems (to me) not to be saying that people "found enlightenment" in spite of Rawat's charisma, but rather as a result of the exploration of that charismatic authority. Maybe I'm just picking nits, but in the back of my mind I imagine DuPertuis reading our summary and saying, "You guys got it wrong." A couple of other things:
Not sure if what I wrote is good or bad or right or wrong with respect to that information, but I figured it was best to mention it. Mael-Num ( talk) 01:57, 12 June 2008 (UTC)
I am trying to find who is this person. All I can find is one book about Yoga under his name [18], no bio or curriculum vitae. Does anybody what are this person's credentials? ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 03:26, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
Will add this info in a summary format. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 14:51, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
This proposal, as it stands, adds nothing to the hard work done for 10 days in proposal#3, and contains several WP:OR violations. Not usable. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 14:42, 13 June 2008 (UTC)
And this edit, with an edit summary of Edited per OR concerns, is ludicrous. It does not respond to the violations argued in this thread. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 14:45, 13 June 2008 (UTC)
Proposal #3 has been edited with the input of many editors actively contributing. At this stage I see no new proposals that are devoid of problems or that challenge the sources or the text used in Proposal #3. I propose to move forward and make the edit. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 20:54, 13 June 2008 (UTC)
Any other comments on Proposal #3? If there aren't any, we should make this edit. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 15:25, 14 June 2008 (UTC)
There's still some footnote work, e.g. the Geaves 2006 ref currently in the Rawat article gives the link to the PDF version of Geaves' article at the publisher's website, etc. But that's maybe easier to adjust after transferral to the article. -- Francis Schonken ( talk) 16:54, 14 June 2008 (UTC)
Identical to prop 3, apart from some minor things I happened to think of:
-- Francis Schonken ( talk) 08:04, 15 June 2008 (UTC)
I think it is time to make this edit. Steve? ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 02:53, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
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Proposal 1Millennium '73 was an important event in the life of the subject. However by many accounts he had little active involvement in it besides his role as centerpiece. The event is covered in detail at Divine Light Mission#Millennium '73. All this article needs is a summary. Beyond the minimal proposal I've made, additonal material which is directly connected to the subject may be appropriate. But details about the DLM, its finances, and so on are out of place. Let's avoid unneccessary duplication between articles. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 07:30, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
Ready?It's been several days since the last comment. If there are no objections I'll suggest that this material be added to the article. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 09:05, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
Proposal 2An editor has posted "Proposal 2". Could he please describe the changes from Proposal 1 and explain the reasoning? ·:· Will Beback ·:· 00:56, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
Prop.3I've posted Prop.3. It's drafted to incorporate some of the text from Prop.2 as well as the discussion on this page. It includes some assessment of the event. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 06:12, 6 June 2008 (UTC) Proposal #4It is about time that editors make an effort to attribute opinions to those that hold them, rather than asserting these opinions as if they were facts (which are obviously not). ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 20:57, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
4a
If we can agree to put in the first paragraph now, without the Mangalwadi at all, then we can make a new proposal about adding the popularity material that Momento wants. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 11:15, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
Proposal 6
P3.7I've posted P3.7. It builds on Joss's 3.4, but doens't attribute the undisputred assertion that the festival was th4 high point (zenith) of Rawat's prominence. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 09:35, 15 June 2008 (UTC)
Status of this proposalWhat is holding us back with this proposal? ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 15:02, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
P3.8Momento, the version you just posted is virtually identical to the material that's already in the article. The reason we're trying to give less space to the festival in this article is that we cover it at great length in the DLM article. You've mentioned your concerns about the legnth of the artile again and again, so we should take opportunities to trim redundant material wherever we can. Nothing you've added back to the proposal isn't already in the DLM article. Let me ask you, do you endorse the idea of having a shorter veriosn here or are you going to keep insisting on retaining the version you wrote? ·:· Will Beback ·:· 18:53, 28 June 2008 (UTC)
P3.9
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Proposal 1I've posted a draft to replace the current intro. Like any article, the lede of a bio should establish the notability of the subject. The rest of the intro should then cover the main points of the subject's life. The conclusion can offer an evaluation. The current intro does not even mention the subject's main "claim to fame": his leadership of the DLM. At the same time it has too many details. For example, while it's verifiable that the followers in the West in the early 1970s were mostly hippies that's not a detail that needs to be in this intro. I've omitted the sources for ease of editing, but I don't think there are any assertions that are unciteable. I'm open to fleshing it out a bit more, but I'd urge editors to keep it short and on point. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 10:00, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
@Will Beback. I read your comments and disagree with them in princple. As you seem not to want to add sources to your proposal, I will start a new proposal that would attempt to take the best from all other previous versions. After all, these were in the article in one way or another. Also, I would remind editors that a lead needs to summarize the article, and not, as it seems from the arguments made, create an introduction that does not reflect the contents of the article. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk)
Ready?It's been several days since the last comment. If there are no objections I'll suggest that this material be added to the article. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 09:06, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
Prop.5I've posted User:Steve Crossin/Mediation/Prem Rawat/Proposal4#Proposal 5, which builds on Prop.2, incorporates Prop.3, and adds sources. Comments? ·:· Will Beback ·:· 10:36, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
I might further elaborate prop.3, which I'd base on prop.5. The issues I'd try to solve are these (non-limitative, just the the ones that immediately drew my attention):
-- Francis Schonken ( talk) 11:16, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
Proposal 7.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Steve_Crossin/Mediation/Prem_Rawat/Proposal4#Proposal_7 Apologies Steve - I lost the background colour. I've attempted to deal with the chronology issues which I agree with Francis are a significant problem. The residual footnote numbering is from Proposal 5, I think all those should cover the material but I've concentrated on getting an historically consistent wording, so some of the references may be out of line. I've rejected the Proposal 3. construction of "associated with organizations" which has too many possible interpretations to be helpful. I disagree with those who want to leave the lede in abeyance until some notional time in the future, the lede should stand as an identification of what is important in the article and even at the level of a work in progress it should be possible to achieve some consensus on what is important enough to be in the lede. -- Nik Wright2 ( talk) 13:43, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
Proposal 0So far, I see no proposals that improve on Proposal #0, which is the most neutral and factually accurate than all new attempts. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 16:23, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
Proposal 8Not perfect, but a good neutral summary of an encyclopedic article on the subject. It needs polishing. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 23:10, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
<< Any and all sources that describe the subject from a biographical point of view (which in case anybody has forgotten is the subject of this article) refer to the PR's age when arriving to the West as one of the most notable aspects of this person's life.
I can add more if you want. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 03:15, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
Proposal #9This proposal, based on Proposal #8 includes fixes requests made above by several editors. I have withdrawn proposal #8 and will continue working on the basis of this one. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 17:22, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
<<< WP:MOSBIO does not force us to use all nicknames, aliases, honorary titles, etc. in the lead. We can simply list the legal name, followed by the most notable names (Maharaji and Guru Maharaj Ji). All others can go in the text. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 14:05, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
Proposal 10I have tried to answer Rumiton's concerns and my own. Mainly removing Balyogeshwar and Sant Ji that aren't "alternate names" or pseudonyms. Reducing and tidying the text. Bringing forward his claim to notability to being a guru at 8, including the millions of followers and removing the ambiguity of his father's death. I have removed the organization as per Rockefeller - John Davison Rockefeller's article mentions Standard oil in the lead, JDR II's article mentions SO in the lead only as "the son of JDR the founder of Standard Oil" and JDR III doesn't mention it at all in the lead despite their obvious involvement. DUO, RVK and EV are only briefly mentioned and shouldn't be in the lead. Momento ( talk) 03:44, 13 June 2008 (UTC)
Prop 11Rumiton, could you please break the text block into sentences? It will make for better reading. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 14:50, 13 June 2008 (UTC)
P4.12I've posted a comproimise version that incorporates material from P4.11 while addressing the concerns expressed above. It's not exactly what I think is best, but I hope that is good enough to meet everyone's needs. If there are any objections please explain them explicity. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 09:54, 15 June 2008 (UTC)
<< Seem to be mainly cosmetic changes, and as such it should be easy to reach a compromise. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 16:28, 15 June 2008 (UTC)
P4 13I have attempted to integrate wording from Prop 11 and 12, as well as addressing concerns expressed above. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 00:37, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
Can we please move this debate here [30] instead of swamping the lead section discussion? Having this debate here is exactly what I feared would happen by attempting to create the lead before the sub-sections are completed. I think it would be better if we could agree to leave the lead section to last, as it should be a summary of all the sub-sections. Savlonn ( talk) 19:05, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
P4 14Have a look. Tried to make it neutral and balanced. Rumiton ( talk) 15:10, 16 June 2008 (UTC) P4.15I've posted a new draft. It is almost identical to P4.14. The only significant changes are moving the organizations to the first paragraph, trimming the TPRF sentence, and adding the term "luxurious", per the discusion at User talk:Steve Crossin/Mediation/Prem Rawat. I think that there are other items that should be included or changed, but we're working towards consensus and I'm willing to accept the imperfections. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 18:45, 20 June 2008 (UTC)
P4.16A neutral and properly attributed version. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 02:02, 21 June 2008 (UTC)
@Savlonn:
@Sylviecyn
≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 17:21, 21 June 2008 (UTC) @John Brauns
P4.17Brought up previous proposal that includes pro comments. Momento ( talk) 00:34, 30 June 2008 (UTC)
P4.16aP4.18I object to language in this and some previous versions:
It isn't only religious writers who've made these charges. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 18:15, 1 July 2008 (UTC)
"Sant Ji"There have been previous assertions that "Sant Ji" is an obsolete title only used during the subject's childhood. I just found this article from 2003 which iidentifies the subject as "Santji Maharaj Prem Rawat". [34] So apparently the title is still in use. ·:· Will Beback ·:· That arrticle does not mentions Sant Ji, but "Santji", which is a honorary way to address a person in India who is considered a Sant. For example [35] ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 13:30, 2 July 2008 (UTC)
Mediator note
More from me
Draft 19I've posted Draft 19. It builds on 4.16, fixing some particular concerns addressed above. It includes the dropping of divinity claims. It drops the attribution of the characterization of materialism and luxury to religious scholars, since those are wide-spread characterizations. It removes the POV "Shri" title from Hans Ji. It adds the experience of followers (from p4.18), though a source is needed. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 09:24, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
AssessmentNot convinced yet by any of the proposals, none of them actually an improvement over what's currently the article's lead. Nor content-wise, nor even more fluent stylistically. But not worried at all either: quite naturally the prop about the lead section would be one of the first to start, and one of the last to finalise. Some practical issues:
-- Francis Schonken ( talk) 20:20, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
Same applies to other areas of this proposal. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 05:32, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
Rawat has been called materialistic and his lifestyle has been called luxurious- Poor English ... while other writers have characterized Rawat as materialistic, and described his lifestyle as luxurious. - Good English. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 05:41, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
The DLM was not created in 1971, but in 1960 by his father, and Prem Rawat was recognized in 1966 as his successor. Draft 18 and 20 are superior. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 05:37, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
I do not see what are the problems with Draft 18. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 06:05, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
Started. -- Francis Schonken ( talk) 09:12, 5 July 2008 (UTC) Good for a chuckle, Francis, but little else. Way, way not neutral. Rumiton ( talk) 14:54, 5 July 2008 (UTC) |
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Also missing from that summary are other results from the study, such as social cohesiveness, and decline of distress upon joining (p.8). BTW, Galanter states that survey was based on 119 people that received questionnaires (p.29), but he does not describe how many responded. The date of the survey is not noted, but the book was printed in 1999. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 15:30, 1 June 2008 (UTC) Regarding Conway, Flo & Siegelman, is there a reason you omitted other findings from that study? Also note that the sample used is quite strange as it is described as being based on on a total of 353 members of 48 different groups, without saying how many of these were from the DLM (!) ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 15:35, 1 June 2008 (UTC) Also note who Stillpoint Press is [36] (publishers of Comway/Siegelman). WP:SPS? ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 15:44, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
Proposal 2
≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 23:11, 1 June 2008 (UTC) The work yuo did on the Galanter material is fine, though it makes it quite a bit longer. Why did you delete the Snapping study? ·:· Will Beback ·:· 23:16, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
Moving forward, in what books or papers do Downton and Barret describe the demographics of the membership? ·:· Will Beback ·:· 23:37, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
Proposal 3I've taken Jossi's P2 and added a summary of Downton's study. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 09:02, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
Proposal 5.Proposal 3 is essentially sound except that the forms of the two studies (Galanter and Downton)were not specified. Addressing this in Prop.5 has two benefits - firstly the reader can be provided with a WP link [ [37]] to assist their understanding of the process involved in the Galanter study, unfortunately there is no comparable source for Comparative study. Secondly and specific to the Rawat articles, previous use of Galanter in the WP articles has been obscurantist with poor contextualisation seeming to suggest that Galanter concluded that the DLM meditation conferred psychological health benefits. Galanter certainly did not suggest direct benefits from meditation, but identifies the meditation as important to group cohesion - the cohesion being the identified source of benefit: "The relevance of such experience to participation in a charismatic group may be clarified by considering how these members attribute meaning to their daily experiences. A compelling alteration in a person's subjective state, whether from drugs or to a novel social context, leaves the person open to ascribing new meaning to experiences. This certainly applies to the altered consciousness associated with meditation, which serves as a vehicle for destabilizing old attitudes and preparing the meditator to accept the group's beliefs. It acts to support the group's cohesiveness and stabilize and even enhance a member's acceptance of the group." Downton makes a useful contrast with Galanter. Jossi's proposal to exclude 'party' data from a Comparative study is misguided at best - it certainly is not Encyclopaedic; to argue to neuter Downton's work in that way is to argue against the validity of Downton as whole, even I wouldn't go that far although I find Downton's perspective on Gurusim somewhat dubious.-- Nik Wright2 ( talk) 10:58, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
So is anyone proposing changes to Prop.5 or are we ready to add the text? ·:· Will Beback ·:· 18:57, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
Ready?If there are no "strong objections substantiated with solid arguments" to this proposal, let's post it. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 11:49, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
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Proposal1Presumably "Proposal 0" is the current text. What is tht proposed change? ·:· Will Beback ·:· 21:16, 13 June 2008 (UTC)
Time to roll my sleeves up :-) If the purpose of this lead/lede is to summarize this section, including criticism, then I think we first need to discuss/debate the scope of the section before agreeing the actual wording of the lead. I feel that writing the lead now before agreeing the sections is a bit too ‘top down’. I think that consensus on this very contentious section can only be agreed by painfully agreeing on each sub-section first, then producing the lead based on the agreed sub-sections. However, the rest of my comments cover the ‘top down’ approach of agreeing the lead first, should other editors feel that this should become the agreed approach. My initial reaction to Proposal 1 is that it purely summarizes a narrow range of very academic material, whilst the material in this section is much broader. I suggest that we first agree the key areas of ‘reception’, then ensure that the lead section fairly reflects this consensus and the section itself. My first stab/brainstorm of key points to consider includes:
Of course this is too much for a 2 sentence lead to this section, so would appreciate any suggestions of how to summarize the essence of this section. Savlonn ( talk) 21:43, 13 June 2008 (UTC)
StructureI'm not discouraging that the content be worked on, expanded, trimmed, rearranged, or improved in whatever way or negotiated in whatever appropriate place, with future consensus for other subsection headers (on the contrary, and I'd play an active role there too!), but here's my proposal, for the time being, with the current content and arrangement:
(copied here per Savlonn's suggestion at Talk:Prem Rawat#Subsection headers with current content (proposal) -- Francis Schonken ( talk) 11:49, 15 June 2008 (UTC))
The proposed structure does not work for me; (a) Media, is too generic; We do not have a section called "Books" for example, event if we hare quoting from books, are we? (b) "Following" can contain material for students, numbers, as well as any suitable information about vocal critics. (c) Former followers does not deserve a separate section, any such material can be included in "Following". Again I do not see how we can discuss structure without the content, it seems to me to be strange, very strange. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 16:34, 15 June 2008 (UTC)
<<< Some of the material in my proposal can be easily incorporated into the chronology, and we should consider that as an option. The only material that would not fit, would be "Charisma and leadership", "Following". So we may need to revisit this. Ideas? ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 01:05, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
<<<< I do not think it is very useful to make general and/or blanket comments about content, structure, etc without the content. There is only one way to do this and it is by creating and developing content. Only when you have content and you bring it to discussion (as we did with the content about charisma) it is useful. I would simply ignore theoretical conversations not supported by proposals that submit content. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 14:40, 17 June 2008 (UTC) Saul V. LevineThere are some writings by Saul V. Levine which might add some counterpoint to material provided in Prop2. Levine is not from the sociological school of thought, rather, he's a psychiatrist who has studied and written papers/articles on NRMs/cult, including DLM. Not all scholars are sociologists of NRMs/cult. Some, like Margaret Singer, were/are clinical psychologists and psychiatrists who offer a different perspective than the group represented in the article. Sylviecyn ( talk) 17:23, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
P6.2
Who is the author of the material on prem-rawat.org? Are there no 3rd-party sources for these assertions? ·:· Will Beback ·:· 20:14, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
(outdent) Jossi your argument is absurd. If Rawat actually founded TPRF – there is no public documentation to show that he did – but even if he did, TPRF would not be cast in some proprietary mould where it could speak as if it were Prem Rawat in person. TPRF is a public foundation not a representative of Rawat, therefore anything on TPRF can not be regarded as Rawat WP:SELFQUEST. The judgement then is, whether TPRF is an acceptable source for what is otherwise a claim unsupported by any independent source. It hardly seems so. If TPRF were a Private Trust or even a for profit corporation where Rawat was identified as a beneficiary or major shareholder, then WP:SELFQUEST might apply, as it would if Rawat was a board member at TPRF, other public charity or for profit corporation, as it is none of these circumstances apply. -- Nik Wright2 ( talk) 19:26, 18 June 2008 (UTC)
The Keys website statistics
This is the full text in that page:
≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 20:03, 18 June 2008 (UTC)
I mean, this is unbelievable... why in the earth some people here get so worked up for such a simple statement and a few numbers? The text there is very clear: It states that over the last 8 years a number of people attended the Key Six session. If someone has questions about what does that mean, we could simply ask a question in their support ticket system. For me, it is very clear, 300K+ people have received the techniques of Knowledge in the last eight years. What is the big deal? ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 15:31, 20 June 2008 (UTC)
Media perceptionsI suggest that Downton summarized the Millennium press conference best: "Representatives of the press became quite hostile to the guru in his first press conference, charging that his answers to their questions were flippant and arrogant." Also, "...representataive of the media were angered, not impressed, by what they saw and heard." ·:· Will Beback ·:· 18:11, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
I don't think we need to attribute a factual statement like this, and there are several sources that mention various people covering the event. The list of notables attending includes
We don't need to list them all, of course, but the existing text doesn't summarize the information well. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 18:34, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
Moving forwardAre we in an impasse? Are there any proposals to try and bridge the differences between the different proposals on the table? ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 15:03, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
Draft 3 - Media perceptions... includes material that it is already being discussed for inclusion in other proposals, or already included in other sections of the article itself. This subsection, as far as I can gather from discussions in other proposals, is no longer viable as presented on this draft. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 21:00, 14 July 2008 (UTC)
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Proposal 7.1Per our lengthy discussions at User talk:Steve Crossin/Mediation/Prem Rawat#Issue/Discussion topic C: 'Opulent/Sumptuous lifestyle. I've prepared and posted a draft. Almost all of the sources used in it are at Talk:Prem Rawat/Lifestyle. The material contains a review of the main issues raised in countless articles, especially concerning cars, planes, and real estate. His mother is the only named critic. There are two quotes from Rawat, one from a follower, and one from a spokesman. We could shorten it by getting rid of the four short quotes but I think they add context. Which reminds me, I can't find the source for Indian gurus being supported in luxury. I know I've seen it recently. Can anyone help? ·:· Will Beback ·:· 11:57, 30 June 2008 (UTC)
Re C) – "Maharaj Ji was the youngest of four sons of Sri Hans Ji, and even as a young child participated with his family in their public religious programs. Given this status, he was accorded a great deal of attention from his father's devotees and lived in luxury.13" Galanter 1989 p21 [44]; there appears to be a footnote too ("13"), of which the text is not given at Talk:Prem Rawat/scholars#Galanter. -- Francis Schonken ( talk) 20:13, 30 June 2008 (UTC)
A great deal of attention is correct by his father devotees is correct, and the fact that Rawat is from the Rajputs is also correct (but not a Brhamin caste). As for being "wealthy" it is very doubtful that his father was such. In any case, the sentence you have there is not what the sources say. As for the other comments above, please provide sources and I will be glad to discuss them. I do not see page 205 of Larson, please provide the text in that page. Yes, Christian writers can be used, but context and attribution is imperative. As for Levine, he is not a "scholar", regardless how you look at it. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 20:48, 30 June 2008 (UTC) The "piloting a Jumbo Jet and a Gulfstream" can be added in the section about his flying interests. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 20:53, 30 June 2008 (UTC)
<outdent>I think this is an accurate depiction of Rawat's life and how it has been viewed by scholars and media alike. His possesion of luxury vehicles is noteworthy because he's a relgious leader in the U.S., not a celeb. The controversy is that he obtained his wealth from his followers. He was supported to a large extent through donations to DLM, which was a non-profit church in the United States that benefitted from that status on the U.S. taxpayers dime. That's what makes it extremely noteworthy. Rawat espcially stood out during the initial acquisition of his wealth in the 1970s. This isn't analagous to celebrities that have lots of cars -- they're expected to have a lot of luxury cars, for crying out loud. See Jay Leno. Being wealth and living an opulent lifestyle is important to Rawat. Here's one way Prem Rawat explained being rich in 1995 at an event in Long Beach, California. Read this and tell me it's not controversial and shouldn't be treated that way!!
Proposal 7.XI will work on an alternative proposal, as I am not confident that proposal 7.1 can be fixed. I will incorporate as many sources used there, add others and present the material in a better and more neutral manner. It may take me a day or two. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 21:16, 30 June 2008 (UTC)
Draft 3I've posted Draft 3. It adds back the quote from the follower, and summarizes one of the quotes of Rawat that is frequently cited. It incorporate the issues covered by the Hunt quote from the "Westernization" section (except for the follower's experience part, which is probably better placed in some other context). It adds the complaints from the former officials, Mishler and Garson. It contextualizes the Jensen purchase, which was noted by the press. I've also translated most of the refs, per Jossi's request. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 10:08, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
"... Two Cessna airplanes were obtained for Rawat's use and he got his pilot's license in 1973. citation needed ..." – seems quite young for a license so a citation would be in order here I suppose. -- Francis Schonken ( talk) 17:48, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
What a mishmash, WP:OR and not-neutral paragraph. If you think this is useful at all, you are mistaken. This is just a mishmash of sources carefully selected for effect, WP:V works alongside NPOV, and does not override it:
≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 16:25, 5 July 2008 (UTC)
Don't play games with me, Will. I am too old for these games. This piece which you have put together by careful selection of quotes for best effect, as if this was a second-rate magazine, is not a happening thing as far as I am concerned. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 02:55, 6 July 2008 (UTC)
Draft 4Essentially Will's draft 3, with cpedit, tweaks, sources tunings. -- Francis Schonken ( talk) 21:54, 5 July 2008 (UTC)
JetsSeeking input regarding the jets. The sources I've encountered thus far aren't too great, re. models, time, typos... Also asking myself whether there are more sources regarding DECA and whether we should mention it. DECA & 7X7
Gulfstream VI think it would be better to have some additional sources here. -- Francis Schonken ( talk) 08:43, 6 July 2008 (UTC) Draft 5While I appreciate Francis' research, I think the DECA/707 material isn't sourced to the same standards as the rest of the paragraph, and the rest of the article. Mcgregor is disputed and so is Cagan, and since they're the only sources for it I think it's better to leave it out of this proposal. Bromley & Shupe is ambiguous, but we do have enough sources for him piloting a private jet. Let's leave it at that. I also moved up the clause "for instance that money was increasingly diverted to Rawat's personal use.[17]", which would be deleted from the last sentence in the second paragaph of the "Critical viewpoints" section. Let's keep this trim, well-sourced, and neutral. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 08:53, 6 July 2008 (UTC)
Draft 4 (continued)In view of the above discussion of draft 5, and the tweaks and updates I brought to draft 4 as a consequence of that, that version (Proposal7#4) is ready to go to the Rawat article, as far as I'm concerned. -- Francis Schonken ( talk) 09:52, 6 July 2008 (UTC)
No consensusHas there been a discussion about choosing this area as Proposal 7. There are many other areas that are more important. I can't see any discussion about it and therefore there is no consensus for this proposal. Momento ( talk) 10:08, 6 July 2008 (UTC)
(note that a YouTube link would normally not be seen as a viable reference in Wikipedia context) Note that much of the above is about intentions of the participants, which is the hard part to verify, and usually completely left out in scholarly sources (note that Schnabel, for instance, writes about that: from a scholar's perspective he doesn't care about the "intentions," as a sociological analysis is independent from that; Similarly "Bromley asserts that recent scholarship gives emphasis to social construct aspects of charisma,..."). And many of the intentions ascribed to participants above are in fact contradicted by the their own words. For instance, "Rawat dismantled [DLM], much to some organizers chagrin": Mishler's words rather seem to indicate the contrary: if he felt chagrin it was arguably regarding Rawat not doing that earlier, before they fell out. – My point is: if we are going to write about (for instance) Mishler's intentions, motivation or feelings we would (at least) be dangerously close to trespassing a few of Wikipedia's core content policies: scholarly research currently has hardly anything on the point; what more popular sources have on the point might be left out for not carrying enough weight, as an editorial discretion. What such participants said and did in public is less a problem: it is both covered by mainstream media and scholarly sources. -- Francis Schonken ( talk) 08:56, 7 July 2008 (UTC)
This is going nowhere fastThe proposal I made above, which I repeat here could be a way to move forward: We have historical newspaper articles from 1972 to 1974, and a single clip from 1988. Most of these, with the exception of a few, are not from mainstream newspapers as per WP:V, and furthermore, we have scholarly sources on the subject that are superior and of later dates that summarize what could be considered primary sources (historical newspapers are primary sources). So, it is a much better use of sources to use the best sources available, which already make summaries of these, instead of inventing a summary here, by picking and choosing what to cite, and using selective quotes. My proposal is then:
≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 12:26, 7 July 2008 (UTC)
I expected an impasse at this point, due to the gulf between expectations of agreed sources covering Rawat's lifestyle. This is why we had the discussion off the main article sandbox page. Jossi wouldn't directly debate the sources there, but requested to so only within the context of specific edits. Thus, we have this section 7 with specific edits. Savlonn ( talk) 19:27, 7 July 2008 (UTC) Attempting to overcome the disagreement by going back to a focus on scholarly material simply won't work, as we have already discussed the NPOV necessity to cover the broad amount of solid material from the mainstream press. We can't ignore that going back to only covering scholarly material favors PR, due to the fact that most scholars were focusing on the religious and not personal/biographical notability of PR. Savlonn ( talk) 19:27, 7 July 2008 (UTC) The way forward is as previously agreed: post edits here and either agree with them, or state specific reasons for disagreeing with the inclusion of source material. Where we still have an impasse, there are other options such as independent assessment of sources, or other ways forward as suggested by Steve. Savlonn ( talk) 19:27, 7 July 2008 (UTC)
... and many other nuances rendering these drafts to be unusable. Jaen and I have expressed the need to better utilize the scholarly sources we have first, and if anything is missing after we do that, then look at the best sources we have from the mainstream press (Newsweek, Time, NYT, etc.) to address missing aspects. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 19:54, 7 July 2008 (UTC)
Draft 5, redux
We have:
How cannot be possible to summarize the scholarly sources on the subject first and see if there is anything they have missed? Why the reluctancy to address the concerns expressed by several editors? Why the insistence in obfuscating the fact that 99% of the sources you listed are from three years? Why the insistence in obfuscating the fact that some of these sources are dubious in the context of a BLP? Why? Many questions and no answers. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 20:27, 7 July 2008 (UTC) Here's a list of the sources for Draft 5:
Which sources do you think are unreliable or dubious, and why? ·:· Will Beback ·:· 20:36, 7 July 2008 (UTC)
2. Time reference. Agreed, but not a strong point (I understand he still flies now). However, this can be mitigated by placing text in appropriate section, so it is not a valid argument to omit this material. 82.132.136.203 ( talk) 20:47, 7 July 2008 (UTC) 3. Selective use of quotes. Please be specific. 82.132.136.203 ( talk) 20:47, 7 July 2008 (UTC) 4. Bias (Leading) "which continued even during" . Fair criticism - can be re-written. 82.132.136.203 ( talk) 20:47, 7 July 2008 (UTC) 5. Omission of context "as far as I could see". Well, it is clear that it is the author's opinion, but I don't have a problem with this being explicitly stated. 82.132.136.203 ( talk) 20:47, 7 July 2008 (UTC) Draft 6Not complete, not polished, but just an example on how we can write about this based on the best sources we have on the subject, and without picking and choosing quotes for effect. It can be done, if editors are willing. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 20:54, 7 July 2008 (UTC)
Draft 7And another draft ... points that seem important to bring out are Rawat's age at the time, plus the fact that the cars were not all amassed in one location, but reflected his travel schedule. Since he flew from place to place and couldn't very well take his car with him, it makes some kind of sense that there would be a limousine at each location. The change in lifestyle, fashion sense etc. is not yet covered. (Also note that this draft would lose the helipad controversy.) Jayen 466 23:42, 7 July 2008 (UTC)
This draft needs some more time context. It reads in the present when actually all that info about the Rolls and the Mercedes are all 1972-1974. I will not mix this stuff with the transport airline licenses that are much later in PR's life and are better presented separately as currently in the article. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 03:49, 8 July 2008 (UTC)
Point 3 was already in the proposal, I think it just makes more sense to keep the references about it together, I'm not suggesting adding additional "real estate guide" material. -- Maelefique (talk) 09:11, 8 July 2008 (UTC)
Draft 8Momento: Please do not edit other's proposals. I have moved your edits to Draft 8. Let Jaen work on his draft 7. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 16:05, 8 July 2008 (UTC) Draft 9
Draft 10Momento, I remember noting down in my abandoned draft page that Mishler was fading from the movement in 1976, resigning officially in January 1977. Jonestown was in November 1978, so about two years must have elapsed between Mishler leaving the movement and his speaking to the press about his fears. Jayen 466 22:57, 8 July 2008 (UTC)
This draft looks promising. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 01:01, 9 July 2008 (UTC) This sentence doesn't sound right at all.
It implies that Rawat wasn't being supported by DLM or his devotees prior to the family split which is incorrect and that's not what the source says. Which source states that his mother was supporting him prior to that time? It's likely DLM -- U.S. and India was supporting the whole family. Rawat's not charging for Knowledge has little or nothing to do with his lifestyle or how/why he received gifts and money. It was/is his divinity and "Lord of the Universe" status, believed by devotees, that got him the money, support, and gifts he requested through tithing, private donations to him personally, and fundraising. This sentence seems to imply he was left destitute when his mother disowned him when she disowned him after all because of his extravagant lifestyle. Otherwise I like draft10. :) Sylviecyn ( talk) 02:23, 9 July 2008 (UTC)
Draft 11Incorporates a paragraph summarising Pilarzyk, including mention of premies' responses to media reporting, other changes discussed under Draft 9, plus some material from Draft 10. -- Jayen 466 16:16, 9 July 2008 (UTC)
I like the approach of Draft 11. It needs work, but I hope this version or similar can be be accepted. I particularly like the balance between the perceived reasonable criticism of PR's "luxurious" lifestyle, with the perceived unreasonable criticism relating to to his physical appearance, etc. This paints the picture that whilst the mainstream press of the 70s did (arguably fairly) criticize him for his lifestyle, there was also some blatantly unfair and discriminatory (physical appearance) criticism. I am really hoping that all parties can accept that notable references to his lifestyle (cars, planes, etc) need to be included for balance, along with clear indications that some media criticism was unfair and discriminatory. Savlonn ( talk) 18:39, 9 July 2008 (UTC) I agree with the principle that either reference to finances are omitted (e.g. PR not charging for 'the knowledge') or that if this statement is included, it is balanced with references to premies being expected to financially contribute. Savlonn ( talk) 18:39, 9 July 2008 (UTC)
Requesting mediator intervention. Incivility levels are rising again. Then I'm not talking about the s***t expression in one of the sections above, but ultimatums in the sense of "This stays here or we remove all of it anywhere in the article" are not a form of civil discussion. The Pilarzyk paragraph treats press articles as many from the period we treat in the "Leaving India" section, as from the period treated in the "Coming of age" section. Since Pilarzyk's treatment is without distinction for both periods, it would be difficult to cut it in two halves for each of the Wikipedia article sections. Thus, it makes more sense to treat this in the "Reception" section, as it is about a typical "reception" topic. Pilarzyk is very useful, I never said otherwise. Don't forget I got the Pilarzyk quote in Wikipedia (not the reference, but the quoted text of the paragraph we're now summarizing), and was the first to use it for proposed article text. I also never implied I thought it the next best thing since sliced bread. So the "This is amazing, suddenly Pylarzik [sic] is not useful anymore here,..." comment below is needlesly inflammatory. -- Francis Schonken ( talk) 07:18, 10 July 2008 (UTC)
It is getting there, but it misses important information about these years. Jaen: Please see if you can incorporate some text from this draft on Proposal 6:
≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 21:07, 9 July 2008 (UTC)
≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 21:22, 9 July 2008 (UTC)
There is more material about Rawat's activities in 1974-1980, and we ought to present that as well and in a much larger proportion than we have now. I will dig up some sources, but Cagan can be used as this is not "contentious" material. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 02:18, 10 July 2008 (UTC)
Jaen: There is good material from Melton and others that Momento just added to draft 10, that you may want to consider adding to Fraft 11, in addition to the other suggestions I made above. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 16:09, 10 July 2008 (UTC) Jayen, several of Jossi's suggestions above are obviously detrimental to the draft, please read the comments above before reducing your work to something less. -- Maelefique (talk) 16:58, 10 July 2008 (UTC)
"Spacer refs"I find it very hard to follow the changes to refs in a list with no landmarks, so I've inserted a "spacer ref" at the end of each proposal so that we can see where the refs for each proposal start and stop. There may be a must elegant way of doing it, but I can't think of it. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 23:52, 8 July 2008 (UTC)
Mediator CommentsI think it's best if I just add a section here. All of you need to calm down. The use of sources always depends of the context of their use. I'll remind you that it isn't my role as a mediator to handle editorial conduct issues, however I do use my discretion, and when I feel necessary, I do what is required, whether on occasion it may be controversial. That said, I do think that everyone here could benefit from some tea, and a sit down. Additionally, I would like for you all to read this. Steve Crossin (contact) 07:31, 10 July 2008 (UTC)
Other publishing houses for Cagan's book
Draft 12Comments please. Rumiton ( talk) 15:15, 12 July 2008 (UTC)
This Draft looks reasonably balanced to me.Comments follow: Savlonn ( talk) 17:58, 12 July 2008 (UTC) a). P5 – “Has the term “Premies” previously been explained in the article?-- Savlonn ( talk) 17:58, 12 July 2008 (UTC)
b) P6 Grammar – ‘Inspiration’ should be either ‘Inspirator’ or ‘source of inspiration’. -- Savlonn ( talk) 17:58, 12 July 2008 (UTC)
c) P7 “he was elevated to a higher level in the conveyance of "Knowledge".
d) P7 “Many returned to ashram life”. This is missing a subject. Did you mean students?-- Savlonn ( talk) 17:58, 12 July 2008 (UTC)
e) P8 “several ex-members became vocal critics, and attacked the movement with charges of brainwashing and mind control”. The word “attacked” is way too strong here; ‘accused’ or ‘claimed’ are better words. The article can’t make any assumptions as to whether these claims were justified or not without diving into the analysis of the claims. As such, they should just be presented in a neutral voice. -- Savlonn ( talk) 17:58, 12 July 2008 (UTC)
Copying here an issue that was not addressed in 11: In December 1973, when he turned 16, Rawat took administrative control of the Mission's U.S. branch which, according to Foss and Larkin, "had developed a centralized bureaucracy with rampant titleism and a penchant for office forms and organizational charts" What is missing from this is a fact that has been covered by Geaves, Levine and Nelson: that after he took over he proceeded to dismantle that stuff and democratized and secularized the movement. [25] [26] ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 20:55, 12 July 2008 (UTC)
We also need more info activities on these years. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 20:57, 12 July 2008 (UTC)
Just a few things that are missing from the period:
People that have worked hard in finding sources for the "opulent" lifestyle section, may want to consider staring research on these aspects as well. Thanks in advance. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 21:24, 12 July 2008 (UTC) ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 21:24, 12 July 2008 (UTC)
I think we are losing focus here and discussing at cross purposes. See the short discussion above between Rumiton and myself as to the purpose of this section. The new material that Jossi has listed may be chronologically relevant to the 'coming of age' section, but most of it is not relevant to PR's "Opulent/Sumptuous Lifestyle". Either we should focus on the nominated purpose of this section, to be inserted in the relevant article sections, or we abandon this section and paste the relevant drafts in a new Section 9 - Coming of Age. Savlonn ( talk) 08:22, 13 July 2008 (UTC)
The Pilarzyk paragraphI'm OK with [draft 12], at least enough progress to replace the current version of that section in the Rawat article, apart from this paragraph:This is a double of what is currently in the User talk:Steve Crossin/Mediation/Prem Rawat/Proposal9 (Media) proposal. It is an entire paragraph sourced to a single source (Pilarzyk), not even mentioned in the body of the text of the paragraph. It is not on "lifestyle" (so not really belonging to the current proposal and not discussed as such). I propose to get that paragraph out of the Proposal7#12 draft, and treat it in proposal 9, to see if we can reach consensus there. Otherwise I'm OK, with the usual provision: will probably need some ref finetuning when transferred to the Rawat article. -- Francis Schonken ( talk) 10:48, 15 July 2008 (UTC)
I'm not pressured for time. Above it was suggested to keep the non-lifestyle issues out of prop7. So either we settle all the issues as one continuum (prop6/prop7/prop9/...), either we agree to split off topics, and treat them by proposal of limited scope. I prefer the latter approach (which has its downsides too... but less so than the full frontal all at once approach). -- Francis Schonken ( talk) 12:38, 15 July 2008 (UTC)
Yes, I understand what you're saying. But I don't agree. I only support draft 12 if the paragraph is left out of the coming of age section. The Pilarzyk material has been not in the article for years, a few days or weeks won't matter. It's a good encouragement not to weaken our attention on the other proposals. The Pilarzyk paragraph covers both the leaving India section and the coming of age section. So, having it only in one of those sections is a misrepresentation. As an alternative, I'd agree to have your summary of the Pilarzyk paragraph inserted as a first paragraph in Prem Rawat#Media (or: maybe better: between the first and the second sentence of the current content of the media section), at the same time when the rest of Draft 12 is implemented in the coming of age section. I suppose you can live with that too. -- Francis Schonken ( talk) 13:53, 15 July 2008 (UTC) So I understand you drop your "my way or the highway" ultimatum ("This stays here or we remove all of it anywhere in the article" - see #Draft 11). I think we can continue without the Pilarzyk para included in prop7 or the Coming of age section. The Pilarzyk para is currently included in all drafts of prop9 ( User:Steve Crossin/Mediation/Prem Rawat/Proposal9 (Media)), so I don't see any problem for this material soon being included in the article in a place where we all can agree about. -- Francis Schonken ( talk) 08:12, 23 July 2008 (UTC) Other suggestions
Draft 13Perhaps editors might list points that have not been properly covered, giving refs. Thanks. Rumiton ( talk) 16:04, 15 July 2008 (UTC)
Troublesome termsI notice unnecessary arguments above caused by some misunderstandings. Pardon my pedantry. Pejorative. In the context, "derogatory" is probably the better word. Cliche. I suspect that "glitch" was the word intended. (I might be wrong here.) Vanity publishing. Does not mean publishing vain or self-praising books, it refers to getting books printed and distributed with all costs born by the author. It really means the same as "self-publishing," but is a term invoked insultingly to suggest that the book would have had no chance of commercial success on its own merits if the author had not footed the bills, i.e. publishing would have been in vain. I think the commercial success of Peace is Possible and its translations rule out this derogatory phrase. Rumiton ( talk) 15:42, 13 July 2008 (UTC)
Draft 4 (v2.0)
-- Francis Schonken ( talk) 10:33, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
"In May 1974 Rawat received permission from a judge to get married".[52] needs to be changed to stay close to the source, to - Still a minor, Rawat needed a court order to obtain a license to marry without parental permission. In May 1974 he obtained such court order from a Juvenile court in Colorado.[52] Momento ( talk) 04:50, 24 July 2008 (UTC)
Draft 4 (v2.1)
The only articulate complaint regards the vases: Jayen refers to his prior comments:
So, no, referring to prior comments is not sufficient. -- Francis Schonken ( talk) 05:43, 31 July 2008 (UTC) Draft 4 (v2.2)
The vases/Rolling Stone issue is marked as "resolved" at WP:RSN#Rolling Stone: "we appear to have reached the conclusion that the suggested draft is an appropriate use of this particular source". Moving on is the message. -- Francis Schonken ( talk) 16:54, 7 August 2008 (UTC) Jayen's re-writes
Nik Wright2 Comments on Draft 4 V2.2
Re. "...almost a completed work..." not my view, nor my intention (tx for the compliment though): all what is needed is an improvement over the current version: if we're aiming at something everyone would consider a "completed" work, nothing is going to improve. And Wikipedia works differently: little steps of improvement, without an artificial endpoint of completion, that's the wiki system. Re. line 1: seems better to make it precise then, keeping to Melton's wording. Re. line 30: "business side of the Mission" refers to the wording used by the source: "... Suddenly there were new reports from people who'd actually managed the Divine Light Mission--Robert Mishler, the man who organized the business side of the mission and served for 5 1/2 years as its president, and Robert Hand Jr., who served as a vice president for two years. ..." (bolding added) [40] I'd also refer to Haan, who explains the structure of the mission in a quite separate "commercial" and a "spiritual" hierarchy (both topped by Rawat): the former managed by directors, the latter represented by initiators (p. 45). [41] -- Francis Schonken ( talk) 21:04, 3 August 2008 (UTC) Countries & continents - Gifts
Countries (bolding added):
-- Francis Schonken ( talk) 13:31, 2 August 2008 (UTC) Brush fireAm I wrong, or is Cagan the only source for the content on the 1978 brush fire in Malibu? I've been looking for press reports about the event, but could find none. Removing the material: don't say it didn't happen, but lacking notability/reliable sources. -- Francis Schonken ( talk) 14:13, 2 August 2008 (UTC) Well, found an oblique mentioning of the brushfire in a L.A. Times article written a few months after the fire, [50] so I added that reference, but requesting better sources for the move to Miami Beach, and for the 1980 activities. -- Francis Schonken ( talk) 14:28, 2 August 2008 (UTC)
Draft 4 (v2.3)Some minor changes resulted from the v2.2 discussions above ( [71]), but it appears we finished the discussions, leading in some instances to "no change" (e.g. the vases/Rolling Stone issue was settled at WP:RSN#Rolling Stone. So proposing v2.3 for implementation. -- Francis Schonken ( talk) 17:05, 7 August 2008 (UTC)
Re: 1) Are you proposing to hold up this draft due to your opposition? Do ytou acknolwege that two noticeboards have reviewed the matter and found it accetable? 4) Are you saying we need a citation for Hand, or that reference to him should be removed? ·:· Will Beback ·:· 21:27, 7 August 2008 (UTC)
Draft 14I assume you'll flesh out the references in due course? Jayen 466 00:45, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
Draft 14 appears to be a big step backwards in terms of reaching consensus. It quite simply doesn't discuss Rawat's 'opulent lifestyle', which is the purpose of this section. The key points that need to be brought back in include the Malibu house, the cars, the planes, etc. In addition, the points about his continuing wealthy lifestyle despite the financial problems from Millennium '73 need to be re-inserted as a starting point towards a balanced section. Savlonn ( talk) 17:27, 9 August 2008 (UTC) The sentence I have the most problem with is: ...contributions from his Western devotees, which made it possible for him to follow the lifestyle of an American millionaire – running a household for his wife, his brother and sister-in-law, Raja Ji and Claudia, as well as financing travel for his entourage of close officials on his frequent trips around the globe to attend the Mission's festivals." Savlonn ( talk) 17:27, 9 August 2008 (UTC) This sentence describes a typical high net worth lifestyle, but not an 'opulent/luxurious' lifestyle, and thus appears to be quite misleading. Rawat wasn't biographically noteable for being able to run a household for his family and finance travel; he was noteable for a luxurious lifestyle as described in previous drafts. This doesn't come across at all with the above description. Savlonn ( talk) 17:27, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
Unfortunately, we are back at a stalemate, as the references to Rawat's lifestyle have not been re-inserted. There's no details about the cars and planes, and when the reference to Malibu estate was put back in, the description of it as a 'lavish estate' (which is the central purpose of this section to describe Rawat's luxurious/opulent lifestyle) was omitted. This is unacceptable. Savlonn ( talk) 07:24, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
References (please start new sections above this section)
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Draft 1The only change is that
becomes
I don't see any problem with the "church" part since it's in the text (though I'm not sure it's necessary in the intro). But what's our basis for saying that the DLM was considered an NRM but labeled a cult or sect? Why not use the same term for all three? Do we have a source that makes this distinciton or is it OR? ·:· Will Beback ·:· 11:07, 5 July 2008 (UTC)
Draft 3More accurate presentation/ summary of the material article, in particular to the fact that there have been conflicting reports on the "labeling" of the movement. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 19:32, 5 July 2008 (UTC)
Draft 4
Quick noteJust a note, in future, please add links to new proposals onto that page. It's the only way I know there are new proposals :). Thanks. Steve Crossin (contact) 01:26, 6 July 2008 (UTC) |
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Draft 1Started, per User talk:Steve Crossin/Mediation/Prem Rawat/Proposal6#Draft 3 - Media perceptions -- Francis Schonken ( talk) 09:01, 15 July 2008 (UTC)
This draft contains material already present in the article. I will make my arguments about other aspects if this draft, once the duplicated material is removed. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 15:06, 15 July 2008 (UTC)
Well, I think we'll need to discuss this in a central place: Discussion topic E at User talk:Steve Crossin/Mediation/Prem Rawat? Anyway, Jossi should better list what he perceives as double content. "contains material already present in the article" is too vague, I don't know what he's talking about. Not the Pilarzyk para about media: it is currently not in the article, but I'd discuss that at topic E nonetheless, as it is an issue accross several proposals. -- Francis Schonken ( talk) 17:41, 15 July 2008 (UTC)
Or,
-- Francis Schonken ( talk) 16:57, 19 July 2008 (UTC)
I am working on Draft 2 for comment. Stand by. Rumiton ( talk) 14:45, 19 July 2008 (UTC)
Draft 1 (v. 2)Tweaks, mainly involving chronology and refs: e.g. moved the August 1973 pieing incident to the start of the 2nd paragraph (the declaration by the PR staff is otherwise difficult to understand on first reading). -- Francis Schonken ( talk) 15:01, 21 July 2008 (UTC)
Draft 1 (v. 3)Simplified pieing incident, per Talk:Prem Rawat#Gavin Newsom -- Francis Schonken ( talk) 08:54, 22 July 2008 (UTC) Issue/Discussion topic EPlease see User talk:Steve Crossin/Mediation/Prem Rawat#Issue/Discussion topic E: history negligence -- Francis Schonken ( talk) 10:55, 22 July 2008 (UTC) Draft 2Condensed, but perhaps still a bit verbose. The section listing the names of reporters who attended Millenium seemed irrelevant, but for the time being I have left it in. Omissions are largely for neutrality of tone or eliminating redundancy. Discussions welcome. Rumiton ( talk) 15:49, 21 July 2008 (UTC)
Draft 3The pie is still there if you look, I just modified the language. If it has not previously been mentioned, it should be. I don't think WP:NOR is violated, as the YouTube info is verifiable by anyone. I think once we get all of this together we will still need to go though and fine tune. Only then will it become clear what belongs in which section. You are probably right about WoP ending up in the 2000s section only. Rumiton ( talk) 15:43, 22 July 2008 (UTC) On second thoughts, the Brazilian award was a media prize, so including it in the Media Response section seems apposite. Rumiton ( talk) 15:49, 22 July 2008 (UTC)
"The summer 1976 issue of And It Is Divine announced it needed a "very conscious focus on Guru Maharaj Ji", and would stop experiments of providing "non-Knowledge oriented material".[49] By the end of the decade the movement had almost disappeared from public view in the United States, apart from some reports about the defection of significant former adherents.[8][30] By then there was some presence in the new media: some ex-followers had started websites devoted to their former guru," There was no Internet at the end of the seventies. -- Jayen 466 11:20, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
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Proposal #2I've posted revised text at User:Steve Crossin/Mediation/Prem Rawat/Proposal1#Proposal 2. It includes additional information and tightens up the writing. We can discuss it here. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 20:42, 27 May 2008 (UTC)
Proposal #3
≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 01:11, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
Prop. 4I've added more detail about the investigation and the jewelry. I've sent you the news source. I left it "divine bank" since that seems to be the more commonly-used name ("Divine Health Care Center", "Divine Employment Agency", etc.). Apparently many enterprises were called "divine". ·:· Will Beback ·:· 04:38, 28 May 2008 (UTC) I also trimmed and added material: Lawyers representing the DLM reported that one of the travelers forgot to declare the goods, and that the goods seized did not belong to Rawat. [1] to Secretaries took responsibility for the valuables and for failing to declare them. [2] [1] . That incorporates two aspects, Apter's and the Indian secretary, and trims a redundant declaration that the material didn't belong to Rawat. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 10:33, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
Prop. 5Small tweaks to stay closer to the sources. Are we there now, Will? ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 16:20, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
If so, my talk page is → that way. :D. Steve Crossin (talk) (review) 17:20, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
DLM articleThe DLM article has similar content at Divine_Light_Mission#Festivals. Once we have agreement on a version for the main article, we could do a short summary of it and replace the current content at the DLM article, for consistency. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 15:42, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
Ready?It's been several days since the last comment. If there are no objections I'll suggest that this material be added to the article. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 09:04, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
The current proposal #5 is the result of discussions related to providing context for the incident, and could certainly be tightened as per the concerns raised by Momento and Rumiton. I would appreciate if Momento and or Rumiton present an alternative proposal based on the work available in proposal #5 that could be discussed. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 15:52, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
Straw poll Prop 5Shall we add proposal #5 to the article? Please sign your name under the position you support, and please add a (hopefully brief and well thought out) comment. Extended commentary should be placed below, in the section marked "Discussion", though brief commentary can be interspersed. Support Prop 5
Oppose Prop 5
DiscussionI'm leaning towards support, but before I throw my straw in, a comment an a question.
"Tabloid"
Proposal #6This version is shorter, keeping the essence of the incident without unnecessary detail. Submitted as an attempt to reach consensus. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 01:48, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
Prop 7While I appreciate what Jossi's trying to do, I think he might have taken too many valuable details out. I did a bit of copy-editing, changed the seven jumbo jets to several (as was mentioned above, reports vary and the key thing [to me] is the 2500 people...that's a lot of people no matter how many jets they filled and that message carries), and other things that slip my mind at the moment. Mael-Num ( talk) 02:38, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
Prop 10I supported Proposal 5, even though I initially felt it was too long, because it covered more than just the customs incident. Proposal 10 covers the same ground. 1972 Hans Jayanti: approx 40 words. If this stands on it own as a notable event, and not just context for a description of the customs incident, then fine, otherwise I suggest shortening it. If it stays, how about placing a minor section break after the information about the festival, so that the remainder of this section is short and tightly focused on the customs incident? Rawat’s Mother: I felt that the conflict between between Rawat and his Mother in version 5 justified this inclusion, but not in version 10 without the ‘cursing’ reference. There should be either a full reference to his mother’s comments or none at all. If we want to cut this down, then I suggest removing the reference to the 1973 tour after posting the bond. The point is that Rawat had to post a bond – not the details of where he was planning to go once the bond was posted. 82.44.221.140 ( talk) 16:52, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
How is this text
This text:
I propose User:Steve Crossin/Mediation/Prem Rawat/Proposal1#Proposal 10 as a compromise proposal. It contains the essence of the incident. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 02:11, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
Prop 11I've removed "reportedly" from the attendance as all of this is "reportedly". And reordered so that the "charges were not laid" is next to the people who may have been charged. And connected Mataji's criticisms to the apology that was given for them. Momento ( talk) 00:22, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
<<< to much of a do about not nothing. The incident can be reported without unnecessary detail that detracts from the rest of the article by giving it too much weight. Let's move on, shall we? I believe Proposal #10 may be a version that we can all live with. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 02:14, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
Prop. 12I've posted Prop. 12. which is shorter yet. I addressed the concerns I'd posted above, about: the secretaries, the international investigation, the "valuables", the Mata Ji comments, plus the bond amount, was removed yet again. I hope this covers the length issues raies by Momento, Jayen, and Rumiton. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 05:07, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
This version is getting closer to a suitable compromise that we may all live with. What is needed is some tweaking:
If these aspects are fixed, I would support this version, despite the fact that it is not my preferred version. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 16:20, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
The statement by Will that I've made the changes proposed by 82. finally pushed me over the line to create an account, though only a pseudonym for the moment.. This comment is to enable you all to make the connection, so you know who I am. Savlonn ( talk) 21:23, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
Prop #13Would this work? ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 22:20, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
<<< I honestly don't see why his age is important for this paragraph. In all honesty I do not understand why you don't see the importance. That concerns me a great deal... As for the "international investigation" that is editorializing. An "international investigation" has undesirable connotations, and innuendo that you may have missed as well. I stand by the text I proposed in 13, which is close to the source. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 02:03, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
Prop #14How about this?
The quotes from Daily Mail, AP, Stars & Stripes, etc. are clear and unamibguous; an international investigation was undertaken. Will has already compromised beyond what I feel is necessary by dropping the reference to 'international' I will not accept any further weakening of this point as I strongly agree it then becomes a distortion that doesn't agree wih the sources. Stating that such an investigation occured is not 'editorializing' (implication of opinion making) but an impartial, self-evident summary of the sourced information. Savlonn ( talk) 22:33, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
ProgressUser:Steve Crossin/Mediation/Prem Rawat: 1972 Hans Jayanti paragraph, introducing version 6/7 hybrid per User:Steve Crossin/Mediation/Prem Rawat/Proposal1 - in order to start on the ref finetuning and other cpedit [12] -- Francis Schonken ( talk) 08:24, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
Way premature, Francis. I am not sure what the significance of adding this material to the "sandbox" article is, but you have no consensus for it. It is just one of several proposals. I much prefer Proposal 10. Let's talk about that. Rumiton ( talk) 15:27, 7 June 2008 (UTC) In fact, your sandbox edits over the last few hours appear to be making a mockery of this entire consensus-seeking process. Please revert them yourself and carry on discussing proposed changes. Thank you. Rumiton ( talk) 15:32, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
How does this look?A revision of the investigation conducted by Parliament, Gandhi, et al. The investigation, which continued into the summer of 1973, was discussed in the Indian Parliament and Prime Minister Indira Gandhi, was reported to have taken an interest in the matter. Indian diplomatic missions in several countries, including the United States and the United Kindom, were asked to investigate the Divine Light Mission's capital assets and bank accounts abroad, which were restricted for Indian nationals under Indian law. Mael-Num ( talk) 00:28, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
P1.15Is this good enough? It's P1.13 plus the text discussed above. Can we agree and move on? ·:· Will Beback ·:· 08:48, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
Just note, I can make a spot for Proposal 16 if needed, but by now, I think it would be best if the current proposal is worked through until we have a consensus for the edit. I still have a request, Prem Rawat is unprotected, as I do agree that it was no longer necessary, however that I still be the one who determines the consensus, and make the edit myself? Probably the best way to do it, I think. Steve Crossin (talk) (email) 19:23, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
Proposal 16Since the investigation also looked into Rawat's taxes I think the formulation I've proposed is more accurate: The finances of Rawat and the DLM at home and abroad were investigated... P1.16 makes it appear that the investigation was solely into DLM assets. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 00:32, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
Proposal 16 is ok for me. Savlonn ( talk) 18:59, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
Proposal to go ahead with the editLet's do this edit, as it has all the traits of having reached consensus. Sure. I am not 100% happy with all of it, but I can live with it. Unless there are serious objections substantiated by solid arguments, I propose the edit is made by Steve at 00:00 UTC June 14. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 14:54, 13 June 2008 (UTC)
Side discussion
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I've read excerpts of her work, and I don't think wording like this
is not really an accurate appraisal of her work. It sounds as if her conclusions were that he isn't a charismatic authority figure, and I don't think that's the case. Has anyone else read her? Mael-Num ( talk) 18:07, 27 May 2008 (UTC)
You can add a second, alternate wording to the proposals page. Steve Crossin (talk) (review) 18:26, 27 May 2008 (UTC)
-- Francis Schonken ( talk) 04:55, 30 May 2008 (UTC)The master in person emerged both theologically and experientially as neither the sole focus nor the unique generator of charisma. (section "Discussion" - 2nd sentence of 1st paragraph)
-- Francis Schonken ( talk) 04:55, 30 May 2008 (UTC)Western devotees reorganized the ritual by lining up the devotees beforehand, seating Guru Maharaj Ji higher up so his feet, now at chest level, would be quicker to kiss. They even experimented: once they had two lines, one passing by each foot; and once they set Guru Maharaj Ji ,and j his throne on a jeep which drove slowly by two miles of lined-up devotees. They finally settled on a long, cloth-draped blue tunnel through which devotees could file silently, leaving the world's mentality, stepping into the divine route to their guru's presence. (section "Darshan of the Living Master" - end of 1st paragraph)
As no counter proposals have bee submitted, I will ask this for material to be added to the article via edit-protected template as agreed. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 15:08, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
Perhaps I should do it Jossi? Also, note that two users are either still blocked, or not yet aware of these precedings. Perhaps a few days should be given first. Steve Crossin (talk) (review) 15:14, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
Okay, just one other thing, I'd prefer to do the editprotected requests myself. That way, I can say, "please insert proposal X into article Y per consensus at page Z.". And then, if there's disagreements, they can take the issue up with me, not a party in the case. Okay with you? Steve Crossin (talk) (review) 15:36, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
Personally, I see no hurry. Although I bet after this case is eventually over, I will be known on Wikipedia as that guy who mediated Prem Rawat. :P. Anyway, I agree, it's best to wait until there's a clear consensus. I've also requested the users be unblocked so they can enter the discussion. (their block has expired). I think edit warring is impossible on the
Prem Rawat article, don't you?
Steve Crossin
(talk)
(review) 16:16, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
Section is good, I tidied it up a bit. Jayen 466 10:59, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
As you might have remarked on your watchlists I've been trying to work with Geaves' material this morning, that is: Geaves, Ron. "Globalization, charisma, innovation, and tradition: An exploration of the transformations in the organisational vehicles for the transmission of the teachings of Prem Rawat (Maharaji)" in Journal of Alternative Spiritualities and New Age Studies - Volume 2, 2006, ISBN 978-1-4196-2696-5 Parameter error in {{ ISBN}}: checksum, pp. 44-62. Web copy at asanas.org.uk
Now, there's something I'm not very clear about how to place it. As it pertains to the charismatic leadership and routinization topics relevant to the "Proposal2" page, I'd appreciate any help offered:(p. 56) This brings the paper to the issue of authority.
Weber’s ideal charismatic authority, was not only unpredictable and unstable, requiring routinisation in order to provide continuity, but was also centred in the personal qualities of the charismatic leader and demanding obedience. Charisma and tradition are seen as having an antagonistic relationship with each other. Prem Rawat could be defined as charismatic only in the latter sense. He does not demand obedience, in that no outer requirements or prohibitions are placed on those taught the techniques.
Far from wanting to override the assertions of an established professor with OR, I'm just asking a question: how do we tackle this when writing an encyclopedia? Obviously, one of the possible answers to that question could be: "NOT", let's leave that fishy business aside. But wouldn't that be a bit of an unsatisfactory answer? -- Francis Schonken ( talk) 13:46, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
(outdent) Surely Geaves is arguing that Weber’s theory of charisma does not apply to Rawat, except in the very limited sense that (according to Geaves) Rawat is antagonistic to tradition:
Prem Rawat’s teachings make no reference to any traditional authority, neither person nor text. The shift in language, directly appealing to human understandings of their own existential dilemma, removed the earlier and more Indian- orientated style of a traditional Sant idiom that could be grounded in reference to previous sacred figures and texts, providing authenticity by comparison and asserting that the message conformed to the ‘real’ meaning of sacred text. This brings the paper to the issue of authority. Weber’s ideal charismatic authority, was not only unpredictable and unstable, requiring routinisation in order to provide continuity, but was also centred in the personal qualities of the charismatic leader and demanding obedience. Charisma and tradition are seen as having an antagonistic relationship with each other. Prem Rawat could be defined as charismatic only in the latter sense. He does not demand obedience, in that no outer requirements or prohibitions are placed on those taught the techniques. The simple axiom, “If you like it, practice it, if you don’t, try something else,” is applied on frequent occasions in his public discourses. Neither does Prem Rawat regard himself as an exemplary leader, a role often ascribed to religious founders. I don’t see how this does not stand in direct contradiction to what the other sources are saying.
In respect of my criticism of Geaves, it is quite possible that I’m confused about the application of Weberian theory – but I don’t think in that particular case that I am; however others have also questioned the implications of authoritarian versus charismatic leadership aspects of that article so some form of amendment would be desirable if only for the sake of clarity. I fully accept that Rawat is in Weberian terms (and in commonly understood usage) a charismatic leader. Regarding Geaves academic standing as relevant as a WP:reference, Geaves is not as such a ‘religious scholar’ in that WP redirects Religious Scholar to Theology, Geaves being neither a theologian nor a philosopher, but more closely a ‘sociologist of Religion’, – this is from a personal webpage published by Geaves some years ago. “ I do have a personal position. I am an 'experiential essentialist' in the line of Professor Ninian Smart, Professsor Geoffrey Parrinder and other eminent pioneers of my discipline. I am very proud and honoured to follow in their footsteps, especially after being awarded my Chair in Religious Studies this year. My ethics are simple - the study of religion is a critical valuation that is combined with a sensitive grasp of world views. There is nothing in the article that contradicts this position.” And from Ninian Smart “Religious Studies as a non-confessional, methodologically agnostic discipline takes its place in the secular academy, where it draw heavily on anthropology, sociology, psychology, history, archeology, and other disciplines. At bottom, it has a place in the public or state sector because, as an aspect of human experience, it is also the study of people--of what they believe, why they believe and act as they do, both individually and within society.” Geaves’ degree was in Humanities and his Phd clearly followed a ‘social sciences’ approach, so it is difficult to argue that sociology is not his ‘specialty’, albeit that he has specialised in the study of religion.
I think your identification of Geaves as “someone heavily contributing to the routinization efforts” is relevant to the question of using Geaves as source for the Rawat articles because it sets very clearly Geaves own role as an interested party in the Rawat history. The same area of problem would arise if Joseph Goebbels was to be quoted as if he were a disinterested source in a biography of Hitler. In any event your Proposal 4. avoids all the major problems and although I think the Pilarscyk quote was useful perhaps it is simply safer to go with what you have.-- Nik Wright2 ( talk) 09:30, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
I've read through her work a couple of times now, and I think I'd like to take a crack at a summary, but just focus on her for the moment. Should I do that here, or should I take up a prop slot on the "User Page"? Mael-Num ( talk) 21:13, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
Unless there are objections substantiated with solid arguments, or any alternative proposals, it is time to make this edit per proposal #3. It is about time. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 14:22, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
I put my take on DuPertuis up at Prop 2.15. I dropped the part about members taking the "Do-It-Yourself" approach to enlightenment, because even though her conclusions are very interesting, it says more about the DLM movement of the 70's than it does about Rawat himself. For what it's worth, I did a little rework of that section as well, and I'd like to see her cited somewhere in the DLM article, because like I said, I think it is interesting stuff:
Maybe combining some of that back into the piece and omitting some of Prop 15 as it is right now would be more to peoples' tastes, or even omitting this entirely and just keeping what we have already. I'm completely open to all suggestions. Mael-Num ( talk) 22:56, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
All the same, maybe wording to this effect?
It's a subtle difference, but she seems (to me) not to be saying that people "found enlightenment" in spite of Rawat's charisma, but rather as a result of the exploration of that charismatic authority. Maybe I'm just picking nits, but in the back of my mind I imagine DuPertuis reading our summary and saying, "You guys got it wrong." A couple of other things:
Not sure if what I wrote is good or bad or right or wrong with respect to that information, but I figured it was best to mention it. Mael-Num ( talk) 01:57, 12 June 2008 (UTC)
I am trying to find who is this person. All I can find is one book about Yoga under his name [18], no bio or curriculum vitae. Does anybody what are this person's credentials? ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 03:26, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
Will add this info in a summary format. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 14:51, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
This proposal, as it stands, adds nothing to the hard work done for 10 days in proposal#3, and contains several WP:OR violations. Not usable. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 14:42, 13 June 2008 (UTC)
And this edit, with an edit summary of Edited per OR concerns, is ludicrous. It does not respond to the violations argued in this thread. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 14:45, 13 June 2008 (UTC)
Proposal #3 has been edited with the input of many editors actively contributing. At this stage I see no new proposals that are devoid of problems or that challenge the sources or the text used in Proposal #3. I propose to move forward and make the edit. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 20:54, 13 June 2008 (UTC)
Any other comments on Proposal #3? If there aren't any, we should make this edit. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 15:25, 14 June 2008 (UTC)
There's still some footnote work, e.g. the Geaves 2006 ref currently in the Rawat article gives the link to the PDF version of Geaves' article at the publisher's website, etc. But that's maybe easier to adjust after transferral to the article. -- Francis Schonken ( talk) 16:54, 14 June 2008 (UTC)
Identical to prop 3, apart from some minor things I happened to think of:
-- Francis Schonken ( talk) 08:04, 15 June 2008 (UTC)
I think it is time to make this edit. Steve? ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 02:53, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
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Proposal 1Millennium '73 was an important event in the life of the subject. However by many accounts he had little active involvement in it besides his role as centerpiece. The event is covered in detail at Divine Light Mission#Millennium '73. All this article needs is a summary. Beyond the minimal proposal I've made, additonal material which is directly connected to the subject may be appropriate. But details about the DLM, its finances, and so on are out of place. Let's avoid unneccessary duplication between articles. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 07:30, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
Ready?It's been several days since the last comment. If there are no objections I'll suggest that this material be added to the article. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 09:05, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
Proposal 2An editor has posted "Proposal 2". Could he please describe the changes from Proposal 1 and explain the reasoning? ·:· Will Beback ·:· 00:56, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
Prop.3I've posted Prop.3. It's drafted to incorporate some of the text from Prop.2 as well as the discussion on this page. It includes some assessment of the event. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 06:12, 6 June 2008 (UTC) Proposal #4It is about time that editors make an effort to attribute opinions to those that hold them, rather than asserting these opinions as if they were facts (which are obviously not). ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 20:57, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
4a
If we can agree to put in the first paragraph now, without the Mangalwadi at all, then we can make a new proposal about adding the popularity material that Momento wants. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 11:15, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
Proposal 6
P3.7I've posted P3.7. It builds on Joss's 3.4, but doens't attribute the undisputred assertion that the festival was th4 high point (zenith) of Rawat's prominence. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 09:35, 15 June 2008 (UTC)
Status of this proposalWhat is holding us back with this proposal? ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 15:02, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
P3.8Momento, the version you just posted is virtually identical to the material that's already in the article. The reason we're trying to give less space to the festival in this article is that we cover it at great length in the DLM article. You've mentioned your concerns about the legnth of the artile again and again, so we should take opportunities to trim redundant material wherever we can. Nothing you've added back to the proposal isn't already in the DLM article. Let me ask you, do you endorse the idea of having a shorter veriosn here or are you going to keep insisting on retaining the version you wrote? ·:· Will Beback ·:· 18:53, 28 June 2008 (UTC)
P3.9
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Proposal 1I've posted a draft to replace the current intro. Like any article, the lede of a bio should establish the notability of the subject. The rest of the intro should then cover the main points of the subject's life. The conclusion can offer an evaluation. The current intro does not even mention the subject's main "claim to fame": his leadership of the DLM. At the same time it has too many details. For example, while it's verifiable that the followers in the West in the early 1970s were mostly hippies that's not a detail that needs to be in this intro. I've omitted the sources for ease of editing, but I don't think there are any assertions that are unciteable. I'm open to fleshing it out a bit more, but I'd urge editors to keep it short and on point. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 10:00, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
@Will Beback. I read your comments and disagree with them in princple. As you seem not to want to add sources to your proposal, I will start a new proposal that would attempt to take the best from all other previous versions. After all, these were in the article in one way or another. Also, I would remind editors that a lead needs to summarize the article, and not, as it seems from the arguments made, create an introduction that does not reflect the contents of the article. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk)
Ready?It's been several days since the last comment. If there are no objections I'll suggest that this material be added to the article. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 09:06, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
Prop.5I've posted User:Steve Crossin/Mediation/Prem Rawat/Proposal4#Proposal 5, which builds on Prop.2, incorporates Prop.3, and adds sources. Comments? ·:· Will Beback ·:· 10:36, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
I might further elaborate prop.3, which I'd base on prop.5. The issues I'd try to solve are these (non-limitative, just the the ones that immediately drew my attention):
-- Francis Schonken ( talk) 11:16, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
Proposal 7.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Steve_Crossin/Mediation/Prem_Rawat/Proposal4#Proposal_7 Apologies Steve - I lost the background colour. I've attempted to deal with the chronology issues which I agree with Francis are a significant problem. The residual footnote numbering is from Proposal 5, I think all those should cover the material but I've concentrated on getting an historically consistent wording, so some of the references may be out of line. I've rejected the Proposal 3. construction of "associated with organizations" which has too many possible interpretations to be helpful. I disagree with those who want to leave the lede in abeyance until some notional time in the future, the lede should stand as an identification of what is important in the article and even at the level of a work in progress it should be possible to achieve some consensus on what is important enough to be in the lede. -- Nik Wright2 ( talk) 13:43, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
Proposal 0So far, I see no proposals that improve on Proposal #0, which is the most neutral and factually accurate than all new attempts. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 16:23, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
Proposal 8Not perfect, but a good neutral summary of an encyclopedic article on the subject. It needs polishing. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 23:10, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
<< Any and all sources that describe the subject from a biographical point of view (which in case anybody has forgotten is the subject of this article) refer to the PR's age when arriving to the West as one of the most notable aspects of this person's life.
I can add more if you want. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 03:15, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
Proposal #9This proposal, based on Proposal #8 includes fixes requests made above by several editors. I have withdrawn proposal #8 and will continue working on the basis of this one. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 17:22, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
<<< WP:MOSBIO does not force us to use all nicknames, aliases, honorary titles, etc. in the lead. We can simply list the legal name, followed by the most notable names (Maharaji and Guru Maharaj Ji). All others can go in the text. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 14:05, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
Proposal 10I have tried to answer Rumiton's concerns and my own. Mainly removing Balyogeshwar and Sant Ji that aren't "alternate names" or pseudonyms. Reducing and tidying the text. Bringing forward his claim to notability to being a guru at 8, including the millions of followers and removing the ambiguity of his father's death. I have removed the organization as per Rockefeller - John Davison Rockefeller's article mentions Standard oil in the lead, JDR II's article mentions SO in the lead only as "the son of JDR the founder of Standard Oil" and JDR III doesn't mention it at all in the lead despite their obvious involvement. DUO, RVK and EV are only briefly mentioned and shouldn't be in the lead. Momento ( talk) 03:44, 13 June 2008 (UTC)
Prop 11Rumiton, could you please break the text block into sentences? It will make for better reading. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 14:50, 13 June 2008 (UTC)
P4.12I've posted a comproimise version that incorporates material from P4.11 while addressing the concerns expressed above. It's not exactly what I think is best, but I hope that is good enough to meet everyone's needs. If there are any objections please explain them explicity. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 09:54, 15 June 2008 (UTC)
<< Seem to be mainly cosmetic changes, and as such it should be easy to reach a compromise. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 16:28, 15 June 2008 (UTC)
P4 13I have attempted to integrate wording from Prop 11 and 12, as well as addressing concerns expressed above. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 00:37, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
Can we please move this debate here [30] instead of swamping the lead section discussion? Having this debate here is exactly what I feared would happen by attempting to create the lead before the sub-sections are completed. I think it would be better if we could agree to leave the lead section to last, as it should be a summary of all the sub-sections. Savlonn ( talk) 19:05, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
P4 14Have a look. Tried to make it neutral and balanced. Rumiton ( talk) 15:10, 16 June 2008 (UTC) P4.15I've posted a new draft. It is almost identical to P4.14. The only significant changes are moving the organizations to the first paragraph, trimming the TPRF sentence, and adding the term "luxurious", per the discusion at User talk:Steve Crossin/Mediation/Prem Rawat. I think that there are other items that should be included or changed, but we're working towards consensus and I'm willing to accept the imperfections. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 18:45, 20 June 2008 (UTC)
P4.16A neutral and properly attributed version. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 02:02, 21 June 2008 (UTC)
@Savlonn:
@Sylviecyn
≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 17:21, 21 June 2008 (UTC) @John Brauns
P4.17Brought up previous proposal that includes pro comments. Momento ( talk) 00:34, 30 June 2008 (UTC)
P4.16aP4.18I object to language in this and some previous versions:
It isn't only religious writers who've made these charges. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 18:15, 1 July 2008 (UTC)
"Sant Ji"There have been previous assertions that "Sant Ji" is an obsolete title only used during the subject's childhood. I just found this article from 2003 which iidentifies the subject as "Santji Maharaj Prem Rawat". [34] So apparently the title is still in use. ·:· Will Beback ·:· That arrticle does not mentions Sant Ji, but "Santji", which is a honorary way to address a person in India who is considered a Sant. For example [35] ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 13:30, 2 July 2008 (UTC)
Mediator note
More from me
Draft 19I've posted Draft 19. It builds on 4.16, fixing some particular concerns addressed above. It includes the dropping of divinity claims. It drops the attribution of the characterization of materialism and luxury to religious scholars, since those are wide-spread characterizations. It removes the POV "Shri" title from Hans Ji. It adds the experience of followers (from p4.18), though a source is needed. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 09:24, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
AssessmentNot convinced yet by any of the proposals, none of them actually an improvement over what's currently the article's lead. Nor content-wise, nor even more fluent stylistically. But not worried at all either: quite naturally the prop about the lead section would be one of the first to start, and one of the last to finalise. Some practical issues:
-- Francis Schonken ( talk) 20:20, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
Same applies to other areas of this proposal. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 05:32, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
Rawat has been called materialistic and his lifestyle has been called luxurious- Poor English ... while other writers have characterized Rawat as materialistic, and described his lifestyle as luxurious. - Good English. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 05:41, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
The DLM was not created in 1971, but in 1960 by his father, and Prem Rawat was recognized in 1966 as his successor. Draft 18 and 20 are superior. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 05:37, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
I do not see what are the problems with Draft 18. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 06:05, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
Started. -- Francis Schonken ( talk) 09:12, 5 July 2008 (UTC) Good for a chuckle, Francis, but little else. Way, way not neutral. Rumiton ( talk) 14:54, 5 July 2008 (UTC) |
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Also missing from that summary are other results from the study, such as social cohesiveness, and decline of distress upon joining (p.8). BTW, Galanter states that survey was based on 119 people that received questionnaires (p.29), but he does not describe how many responded. The date of the survey is not noted, but the book was printed in 1999. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 15:30, 1 June 2008 (UTC) Regarding Conway, Flo & Siegelman, is there a reason you omitted other findings from that study? Also note that the sample used is quite strange as it is described as being based on on a total of 353 members of 48 different groups, without saying how many of these were from the DLM (!) ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 15:35, 1 June 2008 (UTC) Also note who Stillpoint Press is [36] (publishers of Comway/Siegelman). WP:SPS? ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 15:44, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
Proposal 2
≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 23:11, 1 June 2008 (UTC) The work yuo did on the Galanter material is fine, though it makes it quite a bit longer. Why did you delete the Snapping study? ·:· Will Beback ·:· 23:16, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
Moving forward, in what books or papers do Downton and Barret describe the demographics of the membership? ·:· Will Beback ·:· 23:37, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
Proposal 3I've taken Jossi's P2 and added a summary of Downton's study. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 09:02, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
Proposal 5.Proposal 3 is essentially sound except that the forms of the two studies (Galanter and Downton)were not specified. Addressing this in Prop.5 has two benefits - firstly the reader can be provided with a WP link [ [37]] to assist their understanding of the process involved in the Galanter study, unfortunately there is no comparable source for Comparative study. Secondly and specific to the Rawat articles, previous use of Galanter in the WP articles has been obscurantist with poor contextualisation seeming to suggest that Galanter concluded that the DLM meditation conferred psychological health benefits. Galanter certainly did not suggest direct benefits from meditation, but identifies the meditation as important to group cohesion - the cohesion being the identified source of benefit: "The relevance of such experience to participation in a charismatic group may be clarified by considering how these members attribute meaning to their daily experiences. A compelling alteration in a person's subjective state, whether from drugs or to a novel social context, leaves the person open to ascribing new meaning to experiences. This certainly applies to the altered consciousness associated with meditation, which serves as a vehicle for destabilizing old attitudes and preparing the meditator to accept the group's beliefs. It acts to support the group's cohesiveness and stabilize and even enhance a member's acceptance of the group." Downton makes a useful contrast with Galanter. Jossi's proposal to exclude 'party' data from a Comparative study is misguided at best - it certainly is not Encyclopaedic; to argue to neuter Downton's work in that way is to argue against the validity of Downton as whole, even I wouldn't go that far although I find Downton's perspective on Gurusim somewhat dubious.-- Nik Wright2 ( talk) 10:58, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
So is anyone proposing changes to Prop.5 or are we ready to add the text? ·:· Will Beback ·:· 18:57, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
Ready?If there are no "strong objections substantiated with solid arguments" to this proposal, let's post it. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 11:49, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
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Proposal1Presumably "Proposal 0" is the current text. What is tht proposed change? ·:· Will Beback ·:· 21:16, 13 June 2008 (UTC)
Time to roll my sleeves up :-) If the purpose of this lead/lede is to summarize this section, including criticism, then I think we first need to discuss/debate the scope of the section before agreeing the actual wording of the lead. I feel that writing the lead now before agreeing the sections is a bit too ‘top down’. I think that consensus on this very contentious section can only be agreed by painfully agreeing on each sub-section first, then producing the lead based on the agreed sub-sections. However, the rest of my comments cover the ‘top down’ approach of agreeing the lead first, should other editors feel that this should become the agreed approach. My initial reaction to Proposal 1 is that it purely summarizes a narrow range of very academic material, whilst the material in this section is much broader. I suggest that we first agree the key areas of ‘reception’, then ensure that the lead section fairly reflects this consensus and the section itself. My first stab/brainstorm of key points to consider includes:
Of course this is too much for a 2 sentence lead to this section, so would appreciate any suggestions of how to summarize the essence of this section. Savlonn ( talk) 21:43, 13 June 2008 (UTC)
StructureI'm not discouraging that the content be worked on, expanded, trimmed, rearranged, or improved in whatever way or negotiated in whatever appropriate place, with future consensus for other subsection headers (on the contrary, and I'd play an active role there too!), but here's my proposal, for the time being, with the current content and arrangement:
(copied here per Savlonn's suggestion at Talk:Prem Rawat#Subsection headers with current content (proposal) -- Francis Schonken ( talk) 11:49, 15 June 2008 (UTC))
The proposed structure does not work for me; (a) Media, is too generic; We do not have a section called "Books" for example, event if we hare quoting from books, are we? (b) "Following" can contain material for students, numbers, as well as any suitable information about vocal critics. (c) Former followers does not deserve a separate section, any such material can be included in "Following". Again I do not see how we can discuss structure without the content, it seems to me to be strange, very strange. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 16:34, 15 June 2008 (UTC)
<<< Some of the material in my proposal can be easily incorporated into the chronology, and we should consider that as an option. The only material that would not fit, would be "Charisma and leadership", "Following". So we may need to revisit this. Ideas? ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 01:05, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
<<<< I do not think it is very useful to make general and/or blanket comments about content, structure, etc without the content. There is only one way to do this and it is by creating and developing content. Only when you have content and you bring it to discussion (as we did with the content about charisma) it is useful. I would simply ignore theoretical conversations not supported by proposals that submit content. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 14:40, 17 June 2008 (UTC) Saul V. LevineThere are some writings by Saul V. Levine which might add some counterpoint to material provided in Prop2. Levine is not from the sociological school of thought, rather, he's a psychiatrist who has studied and written papers/articles on NRMs/cult, including DLM. Not all scholars are sociologists of NRMs/cult. Some, like Margaret Singer, were/are clinical psychologists and psychiatrists who offer a different perspective than the group represented in the article. Sylviecyn ( talk) 17:23, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
P6.2
Who is the author of the material on prem-rawat.org? Are there no 3rd-party sources for these assertions? ·:· Will Beback ·:· 20:14, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
(outdent) Jossi your argument is absurd. If Rawat actually founded TPRF – there is no public documentation to show that he did – but even if he did, TPRF would not be cast in some proprietary mould where it could speak as if it were Prem Rawat in person. TPRF is a public foundation not a representative of Rawat, therefore anything on TPRF can not be regarded as Rawat WP:SELFQUEST. The judgement then is, whether TPRF is an acceptable source for what is otherwise a claim unsupported by any independent source. It hardly seems so. If TPRF were a Private Trust or even a for profit corporation where Rawat was identified as a beneficiary or major shareholder, then WP:SELFQUEST might apply, as it would if Rawat was a board member at TPRF, other public charity or for profit corporation, as it is none of these circumstances apply. -- Nik Wright2 ( talk) 19:26, 18 June 2008 (UTC)
The Keys website statistics
This is the full text in that page:
≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 20:03, 18 June 2008 (UTC)
I mean, this is unbelievable... why in the earth some people here get so worked up for such a simple statement and a few numbers? The text there is very clear: It states that over the last 8 years a number of people attended the Key Six session. If someone has questions about what does that mean, we could simply ask a question in their support ticket system. For me, it is very clear, 300K+ people have received the techniques of Knowledge in the last eight years. What is the big deal? ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 15:31, 20 June 2008 (UTC)
Media perceptionsI suggest that Downton summarized the Millennium press conference best: "Representatives of the press became quite hostile to the guru in his first press conference, charging that his answers to their questions were flippant and arrogant." Also, "...representataive of the media were angered, not impressed, by what they saw and heard." ·:· Will Beback ·:· 18:11, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
I don't think we need to attribute a factual statement like this, and there are several sources that mention various people covering the event. The list of notables attending includes
We don't need to list them all, of course, but the existing text doesn't summarize the information well. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 18:34, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
Moving forwardAre we in an impasse? Are there any proposals to try and bridge the differences between the different proposals on the table? ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 15:03, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
Draft 3 - Media perceptions... includes material that it is already being discussed for inclusion in other proposals, or already included in other sections of the article itself. This subsection, as far as I can gather from discussions in other proposals, is no longer viable as presented on this draft. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 21:00, 14 July 2008 (UTC)
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Proposal 7.1Per our lengthy discussions at User talk:Steve Crossin/Mediation/Prem Rawat#Issue/Discussion topic C: 'Opulent/Sumptuous lifestyle. I've prepared and posted a draft. Almost all of the sources used in it are at Talk:Prem Rawat/Lifestyle. The material contains a review of the main issues raised in countless articles, especially concerning cars, planes, and real estate. His mother is the only named critic. There are two quotes from Rawat, one from a follower, and one from a spokesman. We could shorten it by getting rid of the four short quotes but I think they add context. Which reminds me, I can't find the source for Indian gurus being supported in luxury. I know I've seen it recently. Can anyone help? ·:· Will Beback ·:· 11:57, 30 June 2008 (UTC)
Re C) – "Maharaj Ji was the youngest of four sons of Sri Hans Ji, and even as a young child participated with his family in their public religious programs. Given this status, he was accorded a great deal of attention from his father's devotees and lived in luxury.13" Galanter 1989 p21 [44]; there appears to be a footnote too ("13"), of which the text is not given at Talk:Prem Rawat/scholars#Galanter. -- Francis Schonken ( talk) 20:13, 30 June 2008 (UTC)
A great deal of attention is correct by his father devotees is correct, and the fact that Rawat is from the Rajputs is also correct (but not a Brhamin caste). As for being "wealthy" it is very doubtful that his father was such. In any case, the sentence you have there is not what the sources say. As for the other comments above, please provide sources and I will be glad to discuss them. I do not see page 205 of Larson, please provide the text in that page. Yes, Christian writers can be used, but context and attribution is imperative. As for Levine, he is not a "scholar", regardless how you look at it. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 20:48, 30 June 2008 (UTC) The "piloting a Jumbo Jet and a Gulfstream" can be added in the section about his flying interests. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 20:53, 30 June 2008 (UTC)
<outdent>I think this is an accurate depiction of Rawat's life and how it has been viewed by scholars and media alike. His possesion of luxury vehicles is noteworthy because he's a relgious leader in the U.S., not a celeb. The controversy is that he obtained his wealth from his followers. He was supported to a large extent through donations to DLM, which was a non-profit church in the United States that benefitted from that status on the U.S. taxpayers dime. That's what makes it extremely noteworthy. Rawat espcially stood out during the initial acquisition of his wealth in the 1970s. This isn't analagous to celebrities that have lots of cars -- they're expected to have a lot of luxury cars, for crying out loud. See Jay Leno. Being wealth and living an opulent lifestyle is important to Rawat. Here's one way Prem Rawat explained being rich in 1995 at an event in Long Beach, California. Read this and tell me it's not controversial and shouldn't be treated that way!!
Proposal 7.XI will work on an alternative proposal, as I am not confident that proposal 7.1 can be fixed. I will incorporate as many sources used there, add others and present the material in a better and more neutral manner. It may take me a day or two. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 21:16, 30 June 2008 (UTC)
Draft 3I've posted Draft 3. It adds back the quote from the follower, and summarizes one of the quotes of Rawat that is frequently cited. It incorporate the issues covered by the Hunt quote from the "Westernization" section (except for the follower's experience part, which is probably better placed in some other context). It adds the complaints from the former officials, Mishler and Garson. It contextualizes the Jensen purchase, which was noted by the press. I've also translated most of the refs, per Jossi's request. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 10:08, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
"... Two Cessna airplanes were obtained for Rawat's use and he got his pilot's license in 1973. citation needed ..." – seems quite young for a license so a citation would be in order here I suppose. -- Francis Schonken ( talk) 17:48, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
What a mishmash, WP:OR and not-neutral paragraph. If you think this is useful at all, you are mistaken. This is just a mishmash of sources carefully selected for effect, WP:V works alongside NPOV, and does not override it:
≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 16:25, 5 July 2008 (UTC)
Don't play games with me, Will. I am too old for these games. This piece which you have put together by careful selection of quotes for best effect, as if this was a second-rate magazine, is not a happening thing as far as I am concerned. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 02:55, 6 July 2008 (UTC)
Draft 4Essentially Will's draft 3, with cpedit, tweaks, sources tunings. -- Francis Schonken ( talk) 21:54, 5 July 2008 (UTC)
JetsSeeking input regarding the jets. The sources I've encountered thus far aren't too great, re. models, time, typos... Also asking myself whether there are more sources regarding DECA and whether we should mention it. DECA & 7X7
Gulfstream VI think it would be better to have some additional sources here. -- Francis Schonken ( talk) 08:43, 6 July 2008 (UTC) Draft 5While I appreciate Francis' research, I think the DECA/707 material isn't sourced to the same standards as the rest of the paragraph, and the rest of the article. Mcgregor is disputed and so is Cagan, and since they're the only sources for it I think it's better to leave it out of this proposal. Bromley & Shupe is ambiguous, but we do have enough sources for him piloting a private jet. Let's leave it at that. I also moved up the clause "for instance that money was increasingly diverted to Rawat's personal use.[17]", which would be deleted from the last sentence in the second paragaph of the "Critical viewpoints" section. Let's keep this trim, well-sourced, and neutral. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 08:53, 6 July 2008 (UTC)
Draft 4 (continued)In view of the above discussion of draft 5, and the tweaks and updates I brought to draft 4 as a consequence of that, that version (Proposal7#4) is ready to go to the Rawat article, as far as I'm concerned. -- Francis Schonken ( talk) 09:52, 6 July 2008 (UTC)
No consensusHas there been a discussion about choosing this area as Proposal 7. There are many other areas that are more important. I can't see any discussion about it and therefore there is no consensus for this proposal. Momento ( talk) 10:08, 6 July 2008 (UTC)
(note that a YouTube link would normally not be seen as a viable reference in Wikipedia context) Note that much of the above is about intentions of the participants, which is the hard part to verify, and usually completely left out in scholarly sources (note that Schnabel, for instance, writes about that: from a scholar's perspective he doesn't care about the "intentions," as a sociological analysis is independent from that; Similarly "Bromley asserts that recent scholarship gives emphasis to social construct aspects of charisma,..."). And many of the intentions ascribed to participants above are in fact contradicted by the their own words. For instance, "Rawat dismantled [DLM], much to some organizers chagrin": Mishler's words rather seem to indicate the contrary: if he felt chagrin it was arguably regarding Rawat not doing that earlier, before they fell out. – My point is: if we are going to write about (for instance) Mishler's intentions, motivation or feelings we would (at least) be dangerously close to trespassing a few of Wikipedia's core content policies: scholarly research currently has hardly anything on the point; what more popular sources have on the point might be left out for not carrying enough weight, as an editorial discretion. What such participants said and did in public is less a problem: it is both covered by mainstream media and scholarly sources. -- Francis Schonken ( talk) 08:56, 7 July 2008 (UTC)
This is going nowhere fastThe proposal I made above, which I repeat here could be a way to move forward: We have historical newspaper articles from 1972 to 1974, and a single clip from 1988. Most of these, with the exception of a few, are not from mainstream newspapers as per WP:V, and furthermore, we have scholarly sources on the subject that are superior and of later dates that summarize what could be considered primary sources (historical newspapers are primary sources). So, it is a much better use of sources to use the best sources available, which already make summaries of these, instead of inventing a summary here, by picking and choosing what to cite, and using selective quotes. My proposal is then:
≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 12:26, 7 July 2008 (UTC)
I expected an impasse at this point, due to the gulf between expectations of agreed sources covering Rawat's lifestyle. This is why we had the discussion off the main article sandbox page. Jossi wouldn't directly debate the sources there, but requested to so only within the context of specific edits. Thus, we have this section 7 with specific edits. Savlonn ( talk) 19:27, 7 July 2008 (UTC) Attempting to overcome the disagreement by going back to a focus on scholarly material simply won't work, as we have already discussed the NPOV necessity to cover the broad amount of solid material from the mainstream press. We can't ignore that going back to only covering scholarly material favors PR, due to the fact that most scholars were focusing on the religious and not personal/biographical notability of PR. Savlonn ( talk) 19:27, 7 July 2008 (UTC) The way forward is as previously agreed: post edits here and either agree with them, or state specific reasons for disagreeing with the inclusion of source material. Where we still have an impasse, there are other options such as independent assessment of sources, or other ways forward as suggested by Steve. Savlonn ( talk) 19:27, 7 July 2008 (UTC)
... and many other nuances rendering these drafts to be unusable. Jaen and I have expressed the need to better utilize the scholarly sources we have first, and if anything is missing after we do that, then look at the best sources we have from the mainstream press (Newsweek, Time, NYT, etc.) to address missing aspects. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 19:54, 7 July 2008 (UTC)
Draft 5, redux
We have:
How cannot be possible to summarize the scholarly sources on the subject first and see if there is anything they have missed? Why the reluctancy to address the concerns expressed by several editors? Why the insistence in obfuscating the fact that 99% of the sources you listed are from three years? Why the insistence in obfuscating the fact that some of these sources are dubious in the context of a BLP? Why? Many questions and no answers. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 20:27, 7 July 2008 (UTC) Here's a list of the sources for Draft 5:
Which sources do you think are unreliable or dubious, and why? ·:· Will Beback ·:· 20:36, 7 July 2008 (UTC)
2. Time reference. Agreed, but not a strong point (I understand he still flies now). However, this can be mitigated by placing text in appropriate section, so it is not a valid argument to omit this material. 82.132.136.203 ( talk) 20:47, 7 July 2008 (UTC) 3. Selective use of quotes. Please be specific. 82.132.136.203 ( talk) 20:47, 7 July 2008 (UTC) 4. Bias (Leading) "which continued even during" . Fair criticism - can be re-written. 82.132.136.203 ( talk) 20:47, 7 July 2008 (UTC) 5. Omission of context "as far as I could see". Well, it is clear that it is the author's opinion, but I don't have a problem with this being explicitly stated. 82.132.136.203 ( talk) 20:47, 7 July 2008 (UTC) Draft 6Not complete, not polished, but just an example on how we can write about this based on the best sources we have on the subject, and without picking and choosing quotes for effect. It can be done, if editors are willing. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 20:54, 7 July 2008 (UTC)
Draft 7And another draft ... points that seem important to bring out are Rawat's age at the time, plus the fact that the cars were not all amassed in one location, but reflected his travel schedule. Since he flew from place to place and couldn't very well take his car with him, it makes some kind of sense that there would be a limousine at each location. The change in lifestyle, fashion sense etc. is not yet covered. (Also note that this draft would lose the helipad controversy.) Jayen 466 23:42, 7 July 2008 (UTC)
This draft needs some more time context. It reads in the present when actually all that info about the Rolls and the Mercedes are all 1972-1974. I will not mix this stuff with the transport airline licenses that are much later in PR's life and are better presented separately as currently in the article. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 03:49, 8 July 2008 (UTC)
Point 3 was already in the proposal, I think it just makes more sense to keep the references about it together, I'm not suggesting adding additional "real estate guide" material. -- Maelefique (talk) 09:11, 8 July 2008 (UTC)
Draft 8Momento: Please do not edit other's proposals. I have moved your edits to Draft 8. Let Jaen work on his draft 7. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 16:05, 8 July 2008 (UTC) Draft 9
Draft 10Momento, I remember noting down in my abandoned draft page that Mishler was fading from the movement in 1976, resigning officially in January 1977. Jonestown was in November 1978, so about two years must have elapsed between Mishler leaving the movement and his speaking to the press about his fears. Jayen 466 22:57, 8 July 2008 (UTC)
This draft looks promising. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 01:01, 9 July 2008 (UTC) This sentence doesn't sound right at all.
It implies that Rawat wasn't being supported by DLM or his devotees prior to the family split which is incorrect and that's not what the source says. Which source states that his mother was supporting him prior to that time? It's likely DLM -- U.S. and India was supporting the whole family. Rawat's not charging for Knowledge has little or nothing to do with his lifestyle or how/why he received gifts and money. It was/is his divinity and "Lord of the Universe" status, believed by devotees, that got him the money, support, and gifts he requested through tithing, private donations to him personally, and fundraising. This sentence seems to imply he was left destitute when his mother disowned him when she disowned him after all because of his extravagant lifestyle. Otherwise I like draft10. :) Sylviecyn ( talk) 02:23, 9 July 2008 (UTC)
Draft 11Incorporates a paragraph summarising Pilarzyk, including mention of premies' responses to media reporting, other changes discussed under Draft 9, plus some material from Draft 10. -- Jayen 466 16:16, 9 July 2008 (UTC)
I like the approach of Draft 11. It needs work, but I hope this version or similar can be be accepted. I particularly like the balance between the perceived reasonable criticism of PR's "luxurious" lifestyle, with the perceived unreasonable criticism relating to to his physical appearance, etc. This paints the picture that whilst the mainstream press of the 70s did (arguably fairly) criticize him for his lifestyle, there was also some blatantly unfair and discriminatory (physical appearance) criticism. I am really hoping that all parties can accept that notable references to his lifestyle (cars, planes, etc) need to be included for balance, along with clear indications that some media criticism was unfair and discriminatory. Savlonn ( talk) 18:39, 9 July 2008 (UTC) I agree with the principle that either reference to finances are omitted (e.g. PR not charging for 'the knowledge') or that if this statement is included, it is balanced with references to premies being expected to financially contribute. Savlonn ( talk) 18:39, 9 July 2008 (UTC)
Requesting mediator intervention. Incivility levels are rising again. Then I'm not talking about the s***t expression in one of the sections above, but ultimatums in the sense of "This stays here or we remove all of it anywhere in the article" are not a form of civil discussion. The Pilarzyk paragraph treats press articles as many from the period we treat in the "Leaving India" section, as from the period treated in the "Coming of age" section. Since Pilarzyk's treatment is without distinction for both periods, it would be difficult to cut it in two halves for each of the Wikipedia article sections. Thus, it makes more sense to treat this in the "Reception" section, as it is about a typical "reception" topic. Pilarzyk is very useful, I never said otherwise. Don't forget I got the Pilarzyk quote in Wikipedia (not the reference, but the quoted text of the paragraph we're now summarizing), and was the first to use it for proposed article text. I also never implied I thought it the next best thing since sliced bread. So the "This is amazing, suddenly Pylarzik [sic] is not useful anymore here,..." comment below is needlesly inflammatory. -- Francis Schonken ( talk) 07:18, 10 July 2008 (UTC)
It is getting there, but it misses important information about these years. Jaen: Please see if you can incorporate some text from this draft on Proposal 6:
≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 21:07, 9 July 2008 (UTC)
≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 21:22, 9 July 2008 (UTC)
There is more material about Rawat's activities in 1974-1980, and we ought to present that as well and in a much larger proportion than we have now. I will dig up some sources, but Cagan can be used as this is not "contentious" material. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 02:18, 10 July 2008 (UTC)
Jaen: There is good material from Melton and others that Momento just added to draft 10, that you may want to consider adding to Fraft 11, in addition to the other suggestions I made above. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 16:09, 10 July 2008 (UTC) Jayen, several of Jossi's suggestions above are obviously detrimental to the draft, please read the comments above before reducing your work to something less. -- Maelefique (talk) 16:58, 10 July 2008 (UTC)
"Spacer refs"I find it very hard to follow the changes to refs in a list with no landmarks, so I've inserted a "spacer ref" at the end of each proposal so that we can see where the refs for each proposal start and stop. There may be a must elegant way of doing it, but I can't think of it. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 23:52, 8 July 2008 (UTC)
Mediator CommentsI think it's best if I just add a section here. All of you need to calm down. The use of sources always depends of the context of their use. I'll remind you that it isn't my role as a mediator to handle editorial conduct issues, however I do use my discretion, and when I feel necessary, I do what is required, whether on occasion it may be controversial. That said, I do think that everyone here could benefit from some tea, and a sit down. Additionally, I would like for you all to read this. Steve Crossin (contact) 07:31, 10 July 2008 (UTC)
Other publishing houses for Cagan's book
Draft 12Comments please. Rumiton ( talk) 15:15, 12 July 2008 (UTC)
This Draft looks reasonably balanced to me.Comments follow: Savlonn ( talk) 17:58, 12 July 2008 (UTC) a). P5 – “Has the term “Premies” previously been explained in the article?-- Savlonn ( talk) 17:58, 12 July 2008 (UTC)
b) P6 Grammar – ‘Inspiration’ should be either ‘Inspirator’ or ‘source of inspiration’. -- Savlonn ( talk) 17:58, 12 July 2008 (UTC)
c) P7 “he was elevated to a higher level in the conveyance of "Knowledge".
d) P7 “Many returned to ashram life”. This is missing a subject. Did you mean students?-- Savlonn ( talk) 17:58, 12 July 2008 (UTC)
e) P8 “several ex-members became vocal critics, and attacked the movement with charges of brainwashing and mind control”. The word “attacked” is way too strong here; ‘accused’ or ‘claimed’ are better words. The article can’t make any assumptions as to whether these claims were justified or not without diving into the analysis of the claims. As such, they should just be presented in a neutral voice. -- Savlonn ( talk) 17:58, 12 July 2008 (UTC)
Copying here an issue that was not addressed in 11: In December 1973, when he turned 16, Rawat took administrative control of the Mission's U.S. branch which, according to Foss and Larkin, "had developed a centralized bureaucracy with rampant titleism and a penchant for office forms and organizational charts" What is missing from this is a fact that has been covered by Geaves, Levine and Nelson: that after he took over he proceeded to dismantle that stuff and democratized and secularized the movement. [25] [26] ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 20:55, 12 July 2008 (UTC)
We also need more info activities on these years. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 20:57, 12 July 2008 (UTC)
Just a few things that are missing from the period:
People that have worked hard in finding sources for the "opulent" lifestyle section, may want to consider staring research on these aspects as well. Thanks in advance. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 21:24, 12 July 2008 (UTC) ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 21:24, 12 July 2008 (UTC)
I think we are losing focus here and discussing at cross purposes. See the short discussion above between Rumiton and myself as to the purpose of this section. The new material that Jossi has listed may be chronologically relevant to the 'coming of age' section, but most of it is not relevant to PR's "Opulent/Sumptuous Lifestyle". Either we should focus on the nominated purpose of this section, to be inserted in the relevant article sections, or we abandon this section and paste the relevant drafts in a new Section 9 - Coming of Age. Savlonn ( talk) 08:22, 13 July 2008 (UTC)
The Pilarzyk paragraphI'm OK with [draft 12], at least enough progress to replace the current version of that section in the Rawat article, apart from this paragraph:This is a double of what is currently in the User talk:Steve Crossin/Mediation/Prem Rawat/Proposal9 (Media) proposal. It is an entire paragraph sourced to a single source (Pilarzyk), not even mentioned in the body of the text of the paragraph. It is not on "lifestyle" (so not really belonging to the current proposal and not discussed as such). I propose to get that paragraph out of the Proposal7#12 draft, and treat it in proposal 9, to see if we can reach consensus there. Otherwise I'm OK, with the usual provision: will probably need some ref finetuning when transferred to the Rawat article. -- Francis Schonken ( talk) 10:48, 15 July 2008 (UTC)
I'm not pressured for time. Above it was suggested to keep the non-lifestyle issues out of prop7. So either we settle all the issues as one continuum (prop6/prop7/prop9/...), either we agree to split off topics, and treat them by proposal of limited scope. I prefer the latter approach (which has its downsides too... but less so than the full frontal all at once approach). -- Francis Schonken ( talk) 12:38, 15 July 2008 (UTC)
Yes, I understand what you're saying. But I don't agree. I only support draft 12 if the paragraph is left out of the coming of age section. The Pilarzyk material has been not in the article for years, a few days or weeks won't matter. It's a good encouragement not to weaken our attention on the other proposals. The Pilarzyk paragraph covers both the leaving India section and the coming of age section. So, having it only in one of those sections is a misrepresentation. As an alternative, I'd agree to have your summary of the Pilarzyk paragraph inserted as a first paragraph in Prem Rawat#Media (or: maybe better: between the first and the second sentence of the current content of the media section), at the same time when the rest of Draft 12 is implemented in the coming of age section. I suppose you can live with that too. -- Francis Schonken ( talk) 13:53, 15 July 2008 (UTC) So I understand you drop your "my way or the highway" ultimatum ("This stays here or we remove all of it anywhere in the article" - see #Draft 11). I think we can continue without the Pilarzyk para included in prop7 or the Coming of age section. The Pilarzyk para is currently included in all drafts of prop9 ( User:Steve Crossin/Mediation/Prem Rawat/Proposal9 (Media)), so I don't see any problem for this material soon being included in the article in a place where we all can agree about. -- Francis Schonken ( talk) 08:12, 23 July 2008 (UTC) Other suggestions
Draft 13Perhaps editors might list points that have not been properly covered, giving refs. Thanks. Rumiton ( talk) 16:04, 15 July 2008 (UTC)
Troublesome termsI notice unnecessary arguments above caused by some misunderstandings. Pardon my pedantry. Pejorative. In the context, "derogatory" is probably the better word. Cliche. I suspect that "glitch" was the word intended. (I might be wrong here.) Vanity publishing. Does not mean publishing vain or self-praising books, it refers to getting books printed and distributed with all costs born by the author. It really means the same as "self-publishing," but is a term invoked insultingly to suggest that the book would have had no chance of commercial success on its own merits if the author had not footed the bills, i.e. publishing would have been in vain. I think the commercial success of Peace is Possible and its translations rule out this derogatory phrase. Rumiton ( talk) 15:42, 13 July 2008 (UTC)
Draft 4 (v2.0)
-- Francis Schonken ( talk) 10:33, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
"In May 1974 Rawat received permission from a judge to get married".[52] needs to be changed to stay close to the source, to - Still a minor, Rawat needed a court order to obtain a license to marry without parental permission. In May 1974 he obtained such court order from a Juvenile court in Colorado.[52] Momento ( talk) 04:50, 24 July 2008 (UTC)
Draft 4 (v2.1)
The only articulate complaint regards the vases: Jayen refers to his prior comments:
So, no, referring to prior comments is not sufficient. -- Francis Schonken ( talk) 05:43, 31 July 2008 (UTC) Draft 4 (v2.2)
The vases/Rolling Stone issue is marked as "resolved" at WP:RSN#Rolling Stone: "we appear to have reached the conclusion that the suggested draft is an appropriate use of this particular source". Moving on is the message. -- Francis Schonken ( talk) 16:54, 7 August 2008 (UTC) Jayen's re-writes
Nik Wright2 Comments on Draft 4 V2.2
Re. "...almost a completed work..." not my view, nor my intention (tx for the compliment though): all what is needed is an improvement over the current version: if we're aiming at something everyone would consider a "completed" work, nothing is going to improve. And Wikipedia works differently: little steps of improvement, without an artificial endpoint of completion, that's the wiki system. Re. line 1: seems better to make it precise then, keeping to Melton's wording. Re. line 30: "business side of the Mission" refers to the wording used by the source: "... Suddenly there were new reports from people who'd actually managed the Divine Light Mission--Robert Mishler, the man who organized the business side of the mission and served for 5 1/2 years as its president, and Robert Hand Jr., who served as a vice president for two years. ..." (bolding added) [40] I'd also refer to Haan, who explains the structure of the mission in a quite separate "commercial" and a "spiritual" hierarchy (both topped by Rawat): the former managed by directors, the latter represented by initiators (p. 45). [41] -- Francis Schonken ( talk) 21:04, 3 August 2008 (UTC) Countries & continents - Gifts
Countries (bolding added):
-- Francis Schonken ( talk) 13:31, 2 August 2008 (UTC) Brush fireAm I wrong, or is Cagan the only source for the content on the 1978 brush fire in Malibu? I've been looking for press reports about the event, but could find none. Removing the material: don't say it didn't happen, but lacking notability/reliable sources. -- Francis Schonken ( talk) 14:13, 2 August 2008 (UTC) Well, found an oblique mentioning of the brushfire in a L.A. Times article written a few months after the fire, [50] so I added that reference, but requesting better sources for the move to Miami Beach, and for the 1980 activities. -- Francis Schonken ( talk) 14:28, 2 August 2008 (UTC)
Draft 4 (v2.3)Some minor changes resulted from the v2.2 discussions above ( [71]), but it appears we finished the discussions, leading in some instances to "no change" (e.g. the vases/Rolling Stone issue was settled at WP:RSN#Rolling Stone. So proposing v2.3 for implementation. -- Francis Schonken ( talk) 17:05, 7 August 2008 (UTC)
Re: 1) Are you proposing to hold up this draft due to your opposition? Do ytou acknolwege that two noticeboards have reviewed the matter and found it accetable? 4) Are you saying we need a citation for Hand, or that reference to him should be removed? ·:· Will Beback ·:· 21:27, 7 August 2008 (UTC)
Draft 14I assume you'll flesh out the references in due course? Jayen 466 00:45, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
Draft 14 appears to be a big step backwards in terms of reaching consensus. It quite simply doesn't discuss Rawat's 'opulent lifestyle', which is the purpose of this section. The key points that need to be brought back in include the Malibu house, the cars, the planes, etc. In addition, the points about his continuing wealthy lifestyle despite the financial problems from Millennium '73 need to be re-inserted as a starting point towards a balanced section. Savlonn ( talk) 17:27, 9 August 2008 (UTC) The sentence I have the most problem with is: ...contributions from his Western devotees, which made it possible for him to follow the lifestyle of an American millionaire – running a household for his wife, his brother and sister-in-law, Raja Ji and Claudia, as well as financing travel for his entourage of close officials on his frequent trips around the globe to attend the Mission's festivals." Savlonn ( talk) 17:27, 9 August 2008 (UTC) This sentence describes a typical high net worth lifestyle, but not an 'opulent/luxurious' lifestyle, and thus appears to be quite misleading. Rawat wasn't biographically noteable for being able to run a household for his family and finance travel; he was noteable for a luxurious lifestyle as described in previous drafts. This doesn't come across at all with the above description. Savlonn ( talk) 17:27, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
Unfortunately, we are back at a stalemate, as the references to Rawat's lifestyle have not been re-inserted. There's no details about the cars and planes, and when the reference to Malibu estate was put back in, the description of it as a 'lavish estate' (which is the central purpose of this section to describe Rawat's luxurious/opulent lifestyle) was omitted. This is unacceptable. Savlonn ( talk) 07:24, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
References (please start new sections above this section)
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Draft 1The only change is that
becomes
I don't see any problem with the "church" part since it's in the text (though I'm not sure it's necessary in the intro). But what's our basis for saying that the DLM was considered an NRM but labeled a cult or sect? Why not use the same term for all three? Do we have a source that makes this distinciton or is it OR? ·:· Will Beback ·:· 11:07, 5 July 2008 (UTC)
Draft 3More accurate presentation/ summary of the material article, in particular to the fact that there have been conflicting reports on the "labeling" of the movement. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 19:32, 5 July 2008 (UTC)
Draft 4
Quick noteJust a note, in future, please add links to new proposals onto that page. It's the only way I know there are new proposals :). Thanks. Steve Crossin (contact) 01:26, 6 July 2008 (UTC) |
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Draft 1Started, per User talk:Steve Crossin/Mediation/Prem Rawat/Proposal6#Draft 3 - Media perceptions -- Francis Schonken ( talk) 09:01, 15 July 2008 (UTC)
This draft contains material already present in the article. I will make my arguments about other aspects if this draft, once the duplicated material is removed. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 15:06, 15 July 2008 (UTC)
Well, I think we'll need to discuss this in a central place: Discussion topic E at User talk:Steve Crossin/Mediation/Prem Rawat? Anyway, Jossi should better list what he perceives as double content. "contains material already present in the article" is too vague, I don't know what he's talking about. Not the Pilarzyk para about media: it is currently not in the article, but I'd discuss that at topic E nonetheless, as it is an issue accross several proposals. -- Francis Schonken ( talk) 17:41, 15 July 2008 (UTC)
Or,
-- Francis Schonken ( talk) 16:57, 19 July 2008 (UTC)
I am working on Draft 2 for comment. Stand by. Rumiton ( talk) 14:45, 19 July 2008 (UTC)
Draft 1 (v. 2)Tweaks, mainly involving chronology and refs: e.g. moved the August 1973 pieing incident to the start of the 2nd paragraph (the declaration by the PR staff is otherwise difficult to understand on first reading). -- Francis Schonken ( talk) 15:01, 21 July 2008 (UTC)
Draft 1 (v. 3)Simplified pieing incident, per Talk:Prem Rawat#Gavin Newsom -- Francis Schonken ( talk) 08:54, 22 July 2008 (UTC) Issue/Discussion topic EPlease see User talk:Steve Crossin/Mediation/Prem Rawat#Issue/Discussion topic E: history negligence -- Francis Schonken ( talk) 10:55, 22 July 2008 (UTC) Draft 2Condensed, but perhaps still a bit verbose. The section listing the names of reporters who attended Millenium seemed irrelevant, but for the time being I have left it in. Omissions are largely for neutrality of tone or eliminating redundancy. Discussions welcome. Rumiton ( talk) 15:49, 21 July 2008 (UTC)
Draft 3The pie is still there if you look, I just modified the language. If it has not previously been mentioned, it should be. I don't think WP:NOR is violated, as the YouTube info is verifiable by anyone. I think once we get all of this together we will still need to go though and fine tune. Only then will it become clear what belongs in which section. You are probably right about WoP ending up in the 2000s section only. Rumiton ( talk) 15:43, 22 July 2008 (UTC) On second thoughts, the Brazilian award was a media prize, so including it in the Media Response section seems apposite. Rumiton ( talk) 15:49, 22 July 2008 (UTC)
"The summer 1976 issue of And It Is Divine announced it needed a "very conscious focus on Guru Maharaj Ji", and would stop experiments of providing "non-Knowledge oriented material".[49] By the end of the decade the movement had almost disappeared from public view in the United States, apart from some reports about the defection of significant former adherents.[8][30] By then there was some presence in the new media: some ex-followers had started websites devoted to their former guru," There was no Internet at the end of the seventies. -- Jayen 466 11:20, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
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