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Thanks for pointing me to the essay WP:SJ. I have a question though. How can one verify (or refute) a journal's independence? (Sorry, but I have a wall of words underlying this question because academia relies so heavily on academic integrity and self-checking for bias, but some well-meaning journals don't understand the ramifications. Most of this is a real-life example of what I mean.)
Here is a major problem regarding journal independence in medicine: There are groups of surgeons & physicians from different institutions who specialize in elective procedures and establish professional societies that promote the procedures they do. (They call it educating the public, advocating for "fair" public policy, or raising awareness.) Some also publish journals that feature articles by others who usually practice these expensive elective procedures, all having the appearance of scientific rigor (though a careful, qualified scientist can usually see the flaws in their methods), but the peer review is done by others in their society, and everyone from top to bottom is making a lot of money on elective procedures. These societies sometimes publish consensus statements that their treatments should be administered to people with even the mildest symptoms or discomfort, but again the consensus is made by people who are all biased in the same direction. Yet few see the problem with this because they are the recognized experts. The members of these organizations don't even realize they're doing it.
Here's a real example from my field: I am a retired neuroscientist who specialized in neural appetite regulation and obesity. I published in obesity journals, and I attended obesity research conferences. Bariatric surgeons (who perform mostly gastric bypass procedures, MANY of them elective) published a consensus statement that anyone with a body mass index of 35 and sleep apnea (for example) qualified for gastric bypass surgery on medical grounds, so many insurance companies had to pay for the procedures. I have been to research conferences and attended the bariatric surgery sessions and met many of them, and they naturally feel what they are doing is good and helpful, but their conference presentations and journals and consensus statements are inherently biased and not independent because nearly everyone from the authors and editors to the peer reviewers is a bariatric surgeon making tons of money off of their elective and very risky services. Yet they follow all of the standard rules for biomedical journals - ethics statements, COI statements, blind reviews, no ads in the journals, probably no page charges - all that. That is not a journal with good scientific methodology though (they never hear dissenting views), and the universal bias in favor of making their expensive procedures more popular and more available means the journals are not independent enough to publish a balanced view of their field. Non-members can certainly get their papers published in their journals, but only if they are approved by the society members (bariatric surgeons) performing the peer review. If someone submitted a paper that showed data that people can be healthy at a higher weight than they normally assume, the peer reviewers wouldn't even take it seriously. (This actually happens a lot in obesity research.) Therefore, the papers in such journals are not independent of the market forces driving the editors and reviewers and the society itself. They are inherently promotional tools, yet they follow all of the standard practices for medical journals. No one will ever provide a RS that says they are not independent, even though they depend on the conclusions of the articles they publish to make their profits. Such journals are medical journals, not research journals, and in the US, physicians are NOT taught anything about research methods in medical school. (I know it's different in Germany though.) That means rigorous peer review is almost meaningless because the physicians doing the reviews don't understand what constitutes quality research and evidence evaluation either. American medical journals are very good for sharing innovative techniques, technological applications, clinical experience, and advanced education, but notoriously bad for science. (This is all based on an obesity society that formed by bariatric surgeons while I was doing research in a hospital's research labs, and our bariatric surgeons all joined. They tried to get me to participate as an obesity researcher. Oh, the society was mostly funded by a drug company that made a weight-loss pill. Over the next few years I saw a lot of bad science and promotional content dressed as science, and of course, consensus statements that were not based on evidence but subjective "clinical expertise".)
As a hypothetical counter-example, consider the Russian journal Problems of Onomastics (our current DRV). In all likelihood they are independent of that sort of bias because I don't think anyone gets paid by using an onomastics journal to attract more customers to a moneymaking enterprise. If we assume they are independent (hypothetically), how can that be verified? Independence is a sort of negative - a lack of dependence on the conclusions of the scholarly content of the journal. But how do you prove a negative?
All scientists know that we are all biased, but we do our best, and our biases tend to vary across any given field. But when a group of non-scientists with a common interest in a profitable business creates a journal, it's just like fringe groups making a journal. Ufologists will only publish papers that support the existence of alien spacecraft. But bariatric surgeons and other practitioners of elective procedures (e.g., cosmetic surgeons, hair transplant surgeons, chiropractors, etc.) are not fringe groups.
The Tireless Contributor Barnstar | |
For your diligent work closing various RFCs and discussions (including specifically the ones from WP:ANRFC) I hereby award you this Tireless Contributor Barnstar. Your closes are direct and to the point and include wisdom many of us wished we had. Keep up the good work. TLSuda ( talk) 01:14, 18 August 2014 (UTC) |
Thank you for the closure. I agree with the barnstar above.
Your closure says "I would judge that the proposition that Porsche should point to the article on the car brand rather than the article on the company enjoys the most support." and the many arguments by those who are not familiar with (or intentionally closed their eyes to) the field in Wikipedia might have given that impression. However, in most car maker articles like Ferrari, Toyota, BMW, etc., articles on the car brand do not exist, and this RfC was not for creation of such articles/titles or change in that convention to let the 'company' articles be the representative for the brand, the vehicles and the carmaker.
The closure also says "I see that Porsche points to the article on the car brand, rather than the article on the corporation", and this confuses me a lot. If the current Porsche article is about the brand, I would include a lot of info on Porsche Salzburg (Volkswagen and Porsche dealership that has far more employees than Porsche SE and Porsche AG together does), Porsche Design Group, etc., but since it is about the company that has become two companies, Porsche SE and Porsche AG, the article does not touch upon those info. Or at least this has been my understanding. Am I mistaken? I feel I must be missing something. What gave you the impression that the article is about the brand?
Well, closed RfC is closed. I would very much appreciate responses to the above, but going forward, could you give me some guidance on "what to do when COMMONNAME depends on country, culture, or demography"? Run another RfC without an example? Yiba ( talk | contribs) 12:43, 18 August 2014 (UTC)
Hi Yiba and thanks for your enquiry. The Porsche RfC didn't really lead to a consensus, which I realise is pretty unhelpful when you've asked the community for advice.
I've re-examined this in the light of your message and I think I've made a mistake in my close. For some reason I was under the impression at the time that Porsche was the article about the brand, but as you rightly point out, it isn't. I'm very sorry for making this mistake. Would you like me to amend the wording in my close?
Your question about COMMONNAME is reasonable and I wish I could give you a clear and simple answer. In my experience COMMONNAME often leads to arguments. One of the biggest, longest and bitterest disputes in Wikipedia's history was about, of all things, what title to give our article on yoghurt. If you're ever bored on Wikipedia, read Talk:Yogurt/yogurtspellinghistory... deary deary me. I don't think we have a consistent practice. What I think we have is a lot of small, slow-motion arguments.
I wish this reply was more helpful than it is. All the best— S Marshall T/ C 16:30, 18 August 2014 (UTC)
Hi Yiba and thanks for your thought-provoking message.
I'm 43 years old, which is not young enough to know everything, but far too young to have an excuse for inattention or forgetfulness, so I feel quite bad about the Porsche mistake. I'd like to begin by explaining that.
I've spent a lot of my volunteering time on Wikipedia at Deletion Review (about five years there so far), and the nature of Deletion Review is that you see a lot of the more unpopular discussion closes, so I've formed a view about how to go about them. I think it's really important that a discussion close reflects the community's view, not the closer's personal opinion. I think it follows that the best way to make a good close is not to form a personal opinion before reading the discussion. I try to ensure I can do this by reading the discussion first----before reading any of the pages the discussion is about----so I can reach an unbiased view of what the community is telling me. Typically, I print out the whole discussion, read it, reflect, and then I draft a close, using the preview window. Then, after drafting but before hitting "submit", as a sanity check on my close, I go and read the pages the discussion is about. I often tweak some of my wording as a result, but it's all done with the preview window open. Clearly, in this case, I've not done that last piece of reading thoroughly enough and I've misidentified Porsche as an article on the car make when it's really about everything Porsche.
The nature of Wikipedia policy is that it's a horrible mess of confusing, contradictory wording. I think it's like scripture: somewhere in the labyrinthine mess of rules, you can find support for almost any position. The current versions are deeply entrenched with editors who're very attached to their favourite phrasing; these editors resist change. As I'm sure you're aware, all our rules evolved from the bottom up as Wikipedians found responses to specific problems, and then wrote down the responses that seemed to work.
I absolutely agree with you that Wikipedians struggle to approach problems at an abstract level. If you suggest something in abstract, then our good friend Chuck the Wikipedian (who's posting from his school computer in Where the Hick, Hazzard County) will say "Looks like a solution in search of a problem", which is said very often on Wikipedia, and the discussion will peter out. If you give a practical example, Chuck will propose solutions to the practical problem and disregard the abstract one. So thanks to Chuck, those who think Wikipedia needs a coherent, intelligible set of editing principles are left trying to generalise these from policies that are really ad hoc rulings, rather than proper rules.
I feel that as a closer my role is to summarise the discussion, and unfortunately the discussion we're considering is really about Porsche and not about COMMONNAME. I don't feel there's much basis in that discussion to say anything about COMMONNAME at all.
In response to your other remarks I would observe that Wikipedia is written by younger, secular, politically left-of-centre males, for younger, secular, politically left-of centre males. Trying to change that is a worthwhile exercise but it's also an uphill struggle. All the best— S Marshall T/ C 17:04, 19 August 2014 (UTC)My experience with trying to change a policy was in WP:Verifiability, which used to say "The threshold for inclusion on Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth." I wanted to change this wording to "Even if you're sure something is true, it must be verifiable before you can add it," for reasons that I've always felt were important, and eventually I succeeded. So changes to high-level policies can be achieved! However, the process took more than a year. If you're interested, Wikipedia talk:Verifiability/First sentence (April–August 2011) and Wikipedia:Verifiability/2012 RfC (at which 128 editors commented) should give you an idea of the potential size and scale of the task.
I do think we should start [[Over-40 Wikipedians]] and set up our own discussion area in which we regularly meet to gripe about younger Wikipedians, criticise their fashion choices and hairstyles, and tell them to get off our lawns. All the best— S Marshall T/ C 07:44, 20 August 2014 (UTC)
Hi Yiba again, thanks for your message.
I certainly did not intend any hurt to your feelings, and I apologise unreservedly. I've re-worded my close now. Please could you let me know whether you're happy with this new wording? I'm very willing to discuss it further if you have any other concerns. All the best— S Marshall T/ C 11:39, 20 August 2014 (UTC)
Hi Yiba and thanks for your message.
I've got a number of things to say about the role of the closer and will compose a few paragraphs about it shortly. All the best— S Marshall T/ C 07:45, 21 August 2014 (UTC)
(later) Yiba, I'm going to give you a long answer. I'm afraid I haven't had time to come up with a short one.
The role of the discussion closer on Wikipedia is to determine what the consensus is. This would be simple and transparent if there was a clear definition of "consensus" but in a number of ways, and for a number of reasons, the term is ill-defined. Traditionally users who ask about this are pointed at the vague words in WP:ROUGHCONSENSUS, but I think I can be clearer.
Some of Wikipedia's processes are clearly democratic. The most obvious examples are elections to positions of power or authority, such as WP:RFA where a decision to promote always arises from "more than 80% of eligible accounts voting in favour" and a decision not to promote always arises from "fewer than 70% of eligible accounts voting in favour". Account eligibility is determined by longevity and activity. There's obviously a discretionary zone between 70% and 80%; by convention, most users who fall into this zone are promoted. So that gives us a baseline for what a "consensus" is in more democratic areas.
Others of Wikipedia's processes are clearly undemocratic. The most obvious example is WP:AFD. RFA is normally of interest only to committed Wikipedians, but AFD has historically attracted a lot of interest from users with a conflict of interest. This happens because having a Wikipedia article for your corporation or product is a marketing advantage. Therefore in these areas the first task of the closer is to try to detect bad faith, COI and single-purpose accounts. Where such contributions are detected, the closer is supposed to disregard them and consider only the contributions of established Wikipedians.
The closer also needs to take account of previous consensuses, particularly if the discussion seems to be coming to a conclusion that's unusual for Wikipedia. For example, there's a very old and strong consensus that if someone makes a controversial contribution to Wikipedia, then it must be supported by a reliable source. (This consensus is enshrined in WP:V.) If a local discussion is coming to a contrary conclusion then the closer is supposed to inspect it very closely.
(I'll use a hypothetical example; let's say that someone writes a biography of John Smith and claims that Mr Smith has cured cancer by means of a homeopathic remedy. This extraordinary claim would certainly need sourcing. If Mr Smith's article ended up at AfD because the only remarkable thing about him is an unsourced claim, but a large number of contributors said "Keep", then our hypothetical discussion closer would still need to come to a "delete" conclusion. The old and strong consensus at WP:V would need to outweigh the small local consensus at the AfD.)
There was a principle called "consensus can change" ( WP:CCC). This is true but it was more relevant historically than it is now. Today, Wikipedia's various policies and guidelines are very entrenched, and it takes extraordinary measures to change them. (If an edit to a policy is seen as a clarification rather than a change, then it is still possible.) Therefore nowadays, WP:CCC is mostly applied to smaller, more local decisions, so an article that was previously deleted at AfD might be kept on the basis of new evidence or some other factor that wasn't previously considered, and likewise an article that was previously kept at AfD might be deleted this time around.
So now I come to RfCs, which are different again because of the expanded range of outcomes. RFA is binary: the only decisions available to the closer are "promote" and "not promote". AfD allows a menu ("keep", "delete", "redirect", "merge", "userfy" and "transwiki"). RfC closes are free text. As I'm sure you can see, this means the outcome you get from a RfC always depends on who closes it. Another closer might use similar text, particularly if the outcome is obvious, but it wouldn't be identical. The close is supposed to be a summary of the consensus.
At one extreme closing a RfC can sometimes be like RFA, where you're essentially just checking to see if any of the contributors are disqualified and then counting up the !votes that are left, and it can sometimes be like AfD, where you're carefully weighing contributions against previous consensuses and looking out for bad behaviour. With the RfC that we're discussing here, I think all the contributions were in good faith and in accordance with our normal rules. I obviously have latitude to correct my own mistakes of fact; I've tried to do so and will be happy to amend the wording further in response to any other specific concerns. But I don't feel it's within my discretion to change the outcome to point the article at the Porsche corporation.
However, if you think I'm wrong about this, then I won't take any offence. It's possible to ask independent editors to review my RfC close and either confirm it or overturn it, and I'll be very happy to begin this process.
All the best— S Marshall T/ C 12:14, 21 August 2014 (UTC)
I noticed the post at Wikipedia talk:Biographies of living persons#Is the RfC close effective? related to your close at Wikipedia talk:Biographies of living persons#Unreferenced lists and porn stars RFC and am posting here to let you know in case you have any advice to give there. Thank you for your excellent work at WP:ANRFC! Cunard ( talk) 04:54, 19 August 2014 (UTC)
I've asked for a second opinion on this at WP:MCQ#File:Lisa Head.jpg. January ( talk) 20:56, 25 August 2014 (UTC)
When do you plan to post that WP:RFC on WP:NFCC that you mentioned? Dogmaticeclectic ( talk) 09:56, 30 August 2014 (UTC)
I just now noticed your of your closure a month ago of the RfC at MOS Linking. Thanks for both the merciful closure, and the the thoughtful summary. A lot of these discussions remind me of fuel oil fires on board a ship — it's not enough to merely suffocate the fire with foam, you have to keep it suffocated long enough to cool down and avoid re-ignition. ~ J. Johnson (JJ) ( talk) 21:44, 7 September 2014 (UTC)
There is a discussion at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Archive265#Move War at History of the Jews in Nepal, and RFC review that concerns you because you were recently involved with one or more of the related Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/History of the Jews in Nepal, Wikipedia:Deletion review/Log/2014 June 30 ( History of the Jews in Nepal), Talk:History of the Jews in Nepal#RfC: Should we change article name to 'Judaism in Nepal'?. Thank you, IZAK ( talk) 08:45, 11 September 2014 (UTC)
I disagree with your closure, it looked to me like the majority figured the content was fine, so long as certain claims were attributed to the IDF. Which is what I will do. But thanks for taking the time to post a decent summation. Darkness Shines ( talk) 11:50, 26 September 2014 (UTC)
Firstly, even if you hadn't agreed with me largely, I would still thank you for giving a detailed and mostly on point justification. I was wondering how anyone closing this RfC would deal with the multiple issues raised, but you managed. The only point which you didn't address was that 2 out of the 3 claims were already present in the article. But still, excellent work overall. Kingsindian ♝ ♚ 12:10, 26 September 2014 (UTC)
Hi S Marshall. Because you participated in Wikipedia:Deletion review/Log/2014 September 28#VideoPad, you may be interested in Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/VideoPad. Cunard ( talk) 00:39, 18 October 2014 (UTC)
I'm sorry to bother you over this. I understand how annoying of a close that was. Your close doesn't actually say that there is a consensus that the template was a BLP violation. It says there is a rough consensus not to keep. However this dispute dates back to March. There was an RFC Talk:Investigative_Project_on_Terrorism/Archive_1#RFC:_Does_the_use_of_the_Islamophobia_template_in_this_article_violate_wikipedias_policy_on_NPOV.3F. Based n NPOV the result was to keep. A BLP violation would obviously override this prior consensus. However I'm not sure that a consensus not to keep can. Again, I understand how annoying the close was and absolutely apologize. Is there a consensus that there is a BLP violation with the template? Is there anyway that this new consensus over rides the prior consensus? Serialjoepsycho ( talk) 19:02, 20 October 2014 (UTC)
Would you like for an independent editor to review my close and check that it was correct? I'm not infallible; I've made hundreds of mistakes on Wikipedia and will doubtless make hundreds more in future, so you won't offend me by asking for a close review. All the best— S Marshall T/ C 19:44, 20 October 2014 (UTC)
Hi S Marshall. Thank you for your detailed close of Wikipedia talk:Notability#Renaming Notability. After your close, you removed the RfC from Template:Centralized discussion. Discussions removed from Template:Centralized discussion are archived at Wikipedia:Centralized discussion/Archive, which I have done so. Cunard ( talk) 23:36, 20 October 2014 (UTC)
...in reviewing the IPT BLPN. I realize it was not an easy determination. With bonnet in hand, I also want to apologize for leaving you with the impression that my summary of the arguments implied that you or any other closer "was too stupid or too inattentive to read them for himself." That was never my intention. Admittedly, there was a degree of consternation after the first reviewer closed the discussion before a full 2 days had passed, stating the following: *The discussion had devolved into a rehashing of the merge and delete discussions. The thread was not addressing any BLP concerns, as the placement of the Islamophobia tag is more of a content dispute than a BLP concern, given that the IPT isn't a living person. [1] He was kind enough to reopen it upon request. Admittedly, it left me with the impression that WP:BLPGROUPS may be a frequently overlooked element of BLP, and the catalyst for my explanatory overindulgence. I hope you will accept my apology, and dismiss any thoughts that I was being condescending toward you. I wish you only the best. Atsme☯ Consult 03:20, 21 October 2014 (UTC)
Thank you for closing Talk:ISO 8601#RFC: Does ISO 8601 use the Gregorian calendar? However, you state in your summary "all I can do is recommend a return to the 2014-08-07 revision". But no edits were made on 2014-08-07. Do you mean the version that existed immediately before this version? Jc3s5h ( talk) 18:06, 21 October 2014 (UTC)
I expressed my surprise at your no-consensus close with four opposes and only the proposer supporting at Talk:Scientific_opinion_on_climate_change#Move_into_IPCC_tag Dmcq ( talk) 11:53, 22 October 2014 (UTC)
This DRV is confusing it appears there are multiple reliable sources provided in Tokyogirl's revision yet it appears that some editors are suggesting it is not reliable. Is this WP:IDONTLIKEIT or am I missing something? Valoem talk contrib 08:03, 8 December 2014 (UTC)
Given your recent activity on the talk page of Verifiable, I am inviting you to participate in the discussion I started in regard to establishing a prima facia case for verifiable sources if it is has met and maintained the standards for inclusion in Google News.– GodBlessYou2 ( talk) 20:15, 11 December 2014 (UTC)
I would say that I was a participant in the discussion and not a disputant, so please rewrite the closing remark without using the polarizing term "disputants". Snowman ( talk) 13:55, 18 December 2014 (UTC)
It has been made abundantly clear that no non-administrator should be closing that discussion. Please keep in mind your position. RGloucester — ☎ 17:25, 19 December 2014 (UTC)
Thank you for the job you did closing the Mist, Aerosol, and Vapor RFC. I personally think its clear as can be what was found. But, one editor on Electronic cigarette has found a little wiggle room in your closing of question A. Would you help the article once again by posting on this topic in this section that is discussing edits based on the RFC? AlbinoFerret 09:42, 23 December 2014 (UTC)
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Thanks for pointing me to the essay WP:SJ. I have a question though. How can one verify (or refute) a journal's independence? (Sorry, but I have a wall of words underlying this question because academia relies so heavily on academic integrity and self-checking for bias, but some well-meaning journals don't understand the ramifications. Most of this is a real-life example of what I mean.)
Here is a major problem regarding journal independence in medicine: There are groups of surgeons & physicians from different institutions who specialize in elective procedures and establish professional societies that promote the procedures they do. (They call it educating the public, advocating for "fair" public policy, or raising awareness.) Some also publish journals that feature articles by others who usually practice these expensive elective procedures, all having the appearance of scientific rigor (though a careful, qualified scientist can usually see the flaws in their methods), but the peer review is done by others in their society, and everyone from top to bottom is making a lot of money on elective procedures. These societies sometimes publish consensus statements that their treatments should be administered to people with even the mildest symptoms or discomfort, but again the consensus is made by people who are all biased in the same direction. Yet few see the problem with this because they are the recognized experts. The members of these organizations don't even realize they're doing it.
Here's a real example from my field: I am a retired neuroscientist who specialized in neural appetite regulation and obesity. I published in obesity journals, and I attended obesity research conferences. Bariatric surgeons (who perform mostly gastric bypass procedures, MANY of them elective) published a consensus statement that anyone with a body mass index of 35 and sleep apnea (for example) qualified for gastric bypass surgery on medical grounds, so many insurance companies had to pay for the procedures. I have been to research conferences and attended the bariatric surgery sessions and met many of them, and they naturally feel what they are doing is good and helpful, but their conference presentations and journals and consensus statements are inherently biased and not independent because nearly everyone from the authors and editors to the peer reviewers is a bariatric surgeon making tons of money off of their elective and very risky services. Yet they follow all of the standard rules for biomedical journals - ethics statements, COI statements, blind reviews, no ads in the journals, probably no page charges - all that. That is not a journal with good scientific methodology though (they never hear dissenting views), and the universal bias in favor of making their expensive procedures more popular and more available means the journals are not independent enough to publish a balanced view of their field. Non-members can certainly get their papers published in their journals, but only if they are approved by the society members (bariatric surgeons) performing the peer review. If someone submitted a paper that showed data that people can be healthy at a higher weight than they normally assume, the peer reviewers wouldn't even take it seriously. (This actually happens a lot in obesity research.) Therefore, the papers in such journals are not independent of the market forces driving the editors and reviewers and the society itself. They are inherently promotional tools, yet they follow all of the standard practices for medical journals. No one will ever provide a RS that says they are not independent, even though they depend on the conclusions of the articles they publish to make their profits. Such journals are medical journals, not research journals, and in the US, physicians are NOT taught anything about research methods in medical school. (I know it's different in Germany though.) That means rigorous peer review is almost meaningless because the physicians doing the reviews don't understand what constitutes quality research and evidence evaluation either. American medical journals are very good for sharing innovative techniques, technological applications, clinical experience, and advanced education, but notoriously bad for science. (This is all based on an obesity society that formed by bariatric surgeons while I was doing research in a hospital's research labs, and our bariatric surgeons all joined. They tried to get me to participate as an obesity researcher. Oh, the society was mostly funded by a drug company that made a weight-loss pill. Over the next few years I saw a lot of bad science and promotional content dressed as science, and of course, consensus statements that were not based on evidence but subjective "clinical expertise".)
As a hypothetical counter-example, consider the Russian journal Problems of Onomastics (our current DRV). In all likelihood they are independent of that sort of bias because I don't think anyone gets paid by using an onomastics journal to attract more customers to a moneymaking enterprise. If we assume they are independent (hypothetically), how can that be verified? Independence is a sort of negative - a lack of dependence on the conclusions of the scholarly content of the journal. But how do you prove a negative?
All scientists know that we are all biased, but we do our best, and our biases tend to vary across any given field. But when a group of non-scientists with a common interest in a profitable business creates a journal, it's just like fringe groups making a journal. Ufologists will only publish papers that support the existence of alien spacecraft. But bariatric surgeons and other practitioners of elective procedures (e.g., cosmetic surgeons, hair transplant surgeons, chiropractors, etc.) are not fringe groups.
The Tireless Contributor Barnstar | |
For your diligent work closing various RFCs and discussions (including specifically the ones from WP:ANRFC) I hereby award you this Tireless Contributor Barnstar. Your closes are direct and to the point and include wisdom many of us wished we had. Keep up the good work. TLSuda ( talk) 01:14, 18 August 2014 (UTC) |
Thank you for the closure. I agree with the barnstar above.
Your closure says "I would judge that the proposition that Porsche should point to the article on the car brand rather than the article on the company enjoys the most support." and the many arguments by those who are not familiar with (or intentionally closed their eyes to) the field in Wikipedia might have given that impression. However, in most car maker articles like Ferrari, Toyota, BMW, etc., articles on the car brand do not exist, and this RfC was not for creation of such articles/titles or change in that convention to let the 'company' articles be the representative for the brand, the vehicles and the carmaker.
The closure also says "I see that Porsche points to the article on the car brand, rather than the article on the corporation", and this confuses me a lot. If the current Porsche article is about the brand, I would include a lot of info on Porsche Salzburg (Volkswagen and Porsche dealership that has far more employees than Porsche SE and Porsche AG together does), Porsche Design Group, etc., but since it is about the company that has become two companies, Porsche SE and Porsche AG, the article does not touch upon those info. Or at least this has been my understanding. Am I mistaken? I feel I must be missing something. What gave you the impression that the article is about the brand?
Well, closed RfC is closed. I would very much appreciate responses to the above, but going forward, could you give me some guidance on "what to do when COMMONNAME depends on country, culture, or demography"? Run another RfC without an example? Yiba ( talk | contribs) 12:43, 18 August 2014 (UTC)
Hi Yiba and thanks for your enquiry. The Porsche RfC didn't really lead to a consensus, which I realise is pretty unhelpful when you've asked the community for advice.
I've re-examined this in the light of your message and I think I've made a mistake in my close. For some reason I was under the impression at the time that Porsche was the article about the brand, but as you rightly point out, it isn't. I'm very sorry for making this mistake. Would you like me to amend the wording in my close?
Your question about COMMONNAME is reasonable and I wish I could give you a clear and simple answer. In my experience COMMONNAME often leads to arguments. One of the biggest, longest and bitterest disputes in Wikipedia's history was about, of all things, what title to give our article on yoghurt. If you're ever bored on Wikipedia, read Talk:Yogurt/yogurtspellinghistory... deary deary me. I don't think we have a consistent practice. What I think we have is a lot of small, slow-motion arguments.
I wish this reply was more helpful than it is. All the best— S Marshall T/ C 16:30, 18 August 2014 (UTC)
Hi Yiba and thanks for your thought-provoking message.
I'm 43 years old, which is not young enough to know everything, but far too young to have an excuse for inattention or forgetfulness, so I feel quite bad about the Porsche mistake. I'd like to begin by explaining that.
I've spent a lot of my volunteering time on Wikipedia at Deletion Review (about five years there so far), and the nature of Deletion Review is that you see a lot of the more unpopular discussion closes, so I've formed a view about how to go about them. I think it's really important that a discussion close reflects the community's view, not the closer's personal opinion. I think it follows that the best way to make a good close is not to form a personal opinion before reading the discussion. I try to ensure I can do this by reading the discussion first----before reading any of the pages the discussion is about----so I can reach an unbiased view of what the community is telling me. Typically, I print out the whole discussion, read it, reflect, and then I draft a close, using the preview window. Then, after drafting but before hitting "submit", as a sanity check on my close, I go and read the pages the discussion is about. I often tweak some of my wording as a result, but it's all done with the preview window open. Clearly, in this case, I've not done that last piece of reading thoroughly enough and I've misidentified Porsche as an article on the car make when it's really about everything Porsche.
The nature of Wikipedia policy is that it's a horrible mess of confusing, contradictory wording. I think it's like scripture: somewhere in the labyrinthine mess of rules, you can find support for almost any position. The current versions are deeply entrenched with editors who're very attached to their favourite phrasing; these editors resist change. As I'm sure you're aware, all our rules evolved from the bottom up as Wikipedians found responses to specific problems, and then wrote down the responses that seemed to work.
I absolutely agree with you that Wikipedians struggle to approach problems at an abstract level. If you suggest something in abstract, then our good friend Chuck the Wikipedian (who's posting from his school computer in Where the Hick, Hazzard County) will say "Looks like a solution in search of a problem", which is said very often on Wikipedia, and the discussion will peter out. If you give a practical example, Chuck will propose solutions to the practical problem and disregard the abstract one. So thanks to Chuck, those who think Wikipedia needs a coherent, intelligible set of editing principles are left trying to generalise these from policies that are really ad hoc rulings, rather than proper rules.
I feel that as a closer my role is to summarise the discussion, and unfortunately the discussion we're considering is really about Porsche and not about COMMONNAME. I don't feel there's much basis in that discussion to say anything about COMMONNAME at all.
In response to your other remarks I would observe that Wikipedia is written by younger, secular, politically left-of-centre males, for younger, secular, politically left-of centre males. Trying to change that is a worthwhile exercise but it's also an uphill struggle. All the best— S Marshall T/ C 17:04, 19 August 2014 (UTC)My experience with trying to change a policy was in WP:Verifiability, which used to say "The threshold for inclusion on Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth." I wanted to change this wording to "Even if you're sure something is true, it must be verifiable before you can add it," for reasons that I've always felt were important, and eventually I succeeded. So changes to high-level policies can be achieved! However, the process took more than a year. If you're interested, Wikipedia talk:Verifiability/First sentence (April–August 2011) and Wikipedia:Verifiability/2012 RfC (at which 128 editors commented) should give you an idea of the potential size and scale of the task.
I do think we should start [[Over-40 Wikipedians]] and set up our own discussion area in which we regularly meet to gripe about younger Wikipedians, criticise their fashion choices and hairstyles, and tell them to get off our lawns. All the best— S Marshall T/ C 07:44, 20 August 2014 (UTC)
Hi Yiba again, thanks for your message.
I certainly did not intend any hurt to your feelings, and I apologise unreservedly. I've re-worded my close now. Please could you let me know whether you're happy with this new wording? I'm very willing to discuss it further if you have any other concerns. All the best— S Marshall T/ C 11:39, 20 August 2014 (UTC)
Hi Yiba and thanks for your message.
I've got a number of things to say about the role of the closer and will compose a few paragraphs about it shortly. All the best— S Marshall T/ C 07:45, 21 August 2014 (UTC)
(later) Yiba, I'm going to give you a long answer. I'm afraid I haven't had time to come up with a short one.
The role of the discussion closer on Wikipedia is to determine what the consensus is. This would be simple and transparent if there was a clear definition of "consensus" but in a number of ways, and for a number of reasons, the term is ill-defined. Traditionally users who ask about this are pointed at the vague words in WP:ROUGHCONSENSUS, but I think I can be clearer.
Some of Wikipedia's processes are clearly democratic. The most obvious examples are elections to positions of power or authority, such as WP:RFA where a decision to promote always arises from "more than 80% of eligible accounts voting in favour" and a decision not to promote always arises from "fewer than 70% of eligible accounts voting in favour". Account eligibility is determined by longevity and activity. There's obviously a discretionary zone between 70% and 80%; by convention, most users who fall into this zone are promoted. So that gives us a baseline for what a "consensus" is in more democratic areas.
Others of Wikipedia's processes are clearly undemocratic. The most obvious example is WP:AFD. RFA is normally of interest only to committed Wikipedians, but AFD has historically attracted a lot of interest from users with a conflict of interest. This happens because having a Wikipedia article for your corporation or product is a marketing advantage. Therefore in these areas the first task of the closer is to try to detect bad faith, COI and single-purpose accounts. Where such contributions are detected, the closer is supposed to disregard them and consider only the contributions of established Wikipedians.
The closer also needs to take account of previous consensuses, particularly if the discussion seems to be coming to a conclusion that's unusual for Wikipedia. For example, there's a very old and strong consensus that if someone makes a controversial contribution to Wikipedia, then it must be supported by a reliable source. (This consensus is enshrined in WP:V.) If a local discussion is coming to a contrary conclusion then the closer is supposed to inspect it very closely.
(I'll use a hypothetical example; let's say that someone writes a biography of John Smith and claims that Mr Smith has cured cancer by means of a homeopathic remedy. This extraordinary claim would certainly need sourcing. If Mr Smith's article ended up at AfD because the only remarkable thing about him is an unsourced claim, but a large number of contributors said "Keep", then our hypothetical discussion closer would still need to come to a "delete" conclusion. The old and strong consensus at WP:V would need to outweigh the small local consensus at the AfD.)
There was a principle called "consensus can change" ( WP:CCC). This is true but it was more relevant historically than it is now. Today, Wikipedia's various policies and guidelines are very entrenched, and it takes extraordinary measures to change them. (If an edit to a policy is seen as a clarification rather than a change, then it is still possible.) Therefore nowadays, WP:CCC is mostly applied to smaller, more local decisions, so an article that was previously deleted at AfD might be kept on the basis of new evidence or some other factor that wasn't previously considered, and likewise an article that was previously kept at AfD might be deleted this time around.
So now I come to RfCs, which are different again because of the expanded range of outcomes. RFA is binary: the only decisions available to the closer are "promote" and "not promote". AfD allows a menu ("keep", "delete", "redirect", "merge", "userfy" and "transwiki"). RfC closes are free text. As I'm sure you can see, this means the outcome you get from a RfC always depends on who closes it. Another closer might use similar text, particularly if the outcome is obvious, but it wouldn't be identical. The close is supposed to be a summary of the consensus.
At one extreme closing a RfC can sometimes be like RFA, where you're essentially just checking to see if any of the contributors are disqualified and then counting up the !votes that are left, and it can sometimes be like AfD, where you're carefully weighing contributions against previous consensuses and looking out for bad behaviour. With the RfC that we're discussing here, I think all the contributions were in good faith and in accordance with our normal rules. I obviously have latitude to correct my own mistakes of fact; I've tried to do so and will be happy to amend the wording further in response to any other specific concerns. But I don't feel it's within my discretion to change the outcome to point the article at the Porsche corporation.
However, if you think I'm wrong about this, then I won't take any offence. It's possible to ask independent editors to review my RfC close and either confirm it or overturn it, and I'll be very happy to begin this process.
All the best— S Marshall T/ C 12:14, 21 August 2014 (UTC)
I noticed the post at Wikipedia talk:Biographies of living persons#Is the RfC close effective? related to your close at Wikipedia talk:Biographies of living persons#Unreferenced lists and porn stars RFC and am posting here to let you know in case you have any advice to give there. Thank you for your excellent work at WP:ANRFC! Cunard ( talk) 04:54, 19 August 2014 (UTC)
I've asked for a second opinion on this at WP:MCQ#File:Lisa Head.jpg. January ( talk) 20:56, 25 August 2014 (UTC)
When do you plan to post that WP:RFC on WP:NFCC that you mentioned? Dogmaticeclectic ( talk) 09:56, 30 August 2014 (UTC)
I just now noticed your of your closure a month ago of the RfC at MOS Linking. Thanks for both the merciful closure, and the the thoughtful summary. A lot of these discussions remind me of fuel oil fires on board a ship — it's not enough to merely suffocate the fire with foam, you have to keep it suffocated long enough to cool down and avoid re-ignition. ~ J. Johnson (JJ) ( talk) 21:44, 7 September 2014 (UTC)
There is a discussion at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Archive265#Move War at History of the Jews in Nepal, and RFC review that concerns you because you were recently involved with one or more of the related Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/History of the Jews in Nepal, Wikipedia:Deletion review/Log/2014 June 30 ( History of the Jews in Nepal), Talk:History of the Jews in Nepal#RfC: Should we change article name to 'Judaism in Nepal'?. Thank you, IZAK ( talk) 08:45, 11 September 2014 (UTC)
I disagree with your closure, it looked to me like the majority figured the content was fine, so long as certain claims were attributed to the IDF. Which is what I will do. But thanks for taking the time to post a decent summation. Darkness Shines ( talk) 11:50, 26 September 2014 (UTC)
Firstly, even if you hadn't agreed with me largely, I would still thank you for giving a detailed and mostly on point justification. I was wondering how anyone closing this RfC would deal with the multiple issues raised, but you managed. The only point which you didn't address was that 2 out of the 3 claims were already present in the article. But still, excellent work overall. Kingsindian ♝ ♚ 12:10, 26 September 2014 (UTC)
Hi S Marshall. Because you participated in Wikipedia:Deletion review/Log/2014 September 28#VideoPad, you may be interested in Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/VideoPad. Cunard ( talk) 00:39, 18 October 2014 (UTC)
I'm sorry to bother you over this. I understand how annoying of a close that was. Your close doesn't actually say that there is a consensus that the template was a BLP violation. It says there is a rough consensus not to keep. However this dispute dates back to March. There was an RFC Talk:Investigative_Project_on_Terrorism/Archive_1#RFC:_Does_the_use_of_the_Islamophobia_template_in_this_article_violate_wikipedias_policy_on_NPOV.3F. Based n NPOV the result was to keep. A BLP violation would obviously override this prior consensus. However I'm not sure that a consensus not to keep can. Again, I understand how annoying the close was and absolutely apologize. Is there a consensus that there is a BLP violation with the template? Is there anyway that this new consensus over rides the prior consensus? Serialjoepsycho ( talk) 19:02, 20 October 2014 (UTC)
Would you like for an independent editor to review my close and check that it was correct? I'm not infallible; I've made hundreds of mistakes on Wikipedia and will doubtless make hundreds more in future, so you won't offend me by asking for a close review. All the best— S Marshall T/ C 19:44, 20 October 2014 (UTC)
Hi S Marshall. Thank you for your detailed close of Wikipedia talk:Notability#Renaming Notability. After your close, you removed the RfC from Template:Centralized discussion. Discussions removed from Template:Centralized discussion are archived at Wikipedia:Centralized discussion/Archive, which I have done so. Cunard ( talk) 23:36, 20 October 2014 (UTC)
...in reviewing the IPT BLPN. I realize it was not an easy determination. With bonnet in hand, I also want to apologize for leaving you with the impression that my summary of the arguments implied that you or any other closer "was too stupid or too inattentive to read them for himself." That was never my intention. Admittedly, there was a degree of consternation after the first reviewer closed the discussion before a full 2 days had passed, stating the following: *The discussion had devolved into a rehashing of the merge and delete discussions. The thread was not addressing any BLP concerns, as the placement of the Islamophobia tag is more of a content dispute than a BLP concern, given that the IPT isn't a living person. [1] He was kind enough to reopen it upon request. Admittedly, it left me with the impression that WP:BLPGROUPS may be a frequently overlooked element of BLP, and the catalyst for my explanatory overindulgence. I hope you will accept my apology, and dismiss any thoughts that I was being condescending toward you. I wish you only the best. Atsme☯ Consult 03:20, 21 October 2014 (UTC)
Thank you for closing Talk:ISO 8601#RFC: Does ISO 8601 use the Gregorian calendar? However, you state in your summary "all I can do is recommend a return to the 2014-08-07 revision". But no edits were made on 2014-08-07. Do you mean the version that existed immediately before this version? Jc3s5h ( talk) 18:06, 21 October 2014 (UTC)
I expressed my surprise at your no-consensus close with four opposes and only the proposer supporting at Talk:Scientific_opinion_on_climate_change#Move_into_IPCC_tag Dmcq ( talk) 11:53, 22 October 2014 (UTC)
This DRV is confusing it appears there are multiple reliable sources provided in Tokyogirl's revision yet it appears that some editors are suggesting it is not reliable. Is this WP:IDONTLIKEIT or am I missing something? Valoem talk contrib 08:03, 8 December 2014 (UTC)
Given your recent activity on the talk page of Verifiable, I am inviting you to participate in the discussion I started in regard to establishing a prima facia case for verifiable sources if it is has met and maintained the standards for inclusion in Google News.– GodBlessYou2 ( talk) 20:15, 11 December 2014 (UTC)
I would say that I was a participant in the discussion and not a disputant, so please rewrite the closing remark without using the polarizing term "disputants". Snowman ( talk) 13:55, 18 December 2014 (UTC)
It has been made abundantly clear that no non-administrator should be closing that discussion. Please keep in mind your position. RGloucester — ☎ 17:25, 19 December 2014 (UTC)
Thank you for the job you did closing the Mist, Aerosol, and Vapor RFC. I personally think its clear as can be what was found. But, one editor on Electronic cigarette has found a little wiggle room in your closing of question A. Would you help the article once again by posting on this topic in this section that is discussing edits based on the RFC? AlbinoFerret 09:42, 23 December 2014 (UTC)