In case you're not watching Talk:Todd Goldman, I invite you to discuss the issue of reliable sources over at User:Superluser/Reliable Sources for Biographies of Living People. Thanks! superluser t c 2007 July 10, 05:24 (UTC)
Re. your threat to remove my map of Greater Israel. From WP:NOR: Pictures have enjoyed a broad exception from this policy. If you feel you must go on with this threat, I will meet you at the images for deletion page. Emmanuelm ( talk) 17:26, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
Please stop removing references to Judea and Samaria from articles. It is considered vandalism. Be sure to review WP:NPOV and provide sufficient reasons for your edits in the edit summary, which in your case is decidedly non-descriptive. -- Ynhockey ( Talk) 22:49, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
With all due respect, I live outside of Israel and I refer to these locations as Judea and Samaria. David Betesh ( talk)
I have made a further change, and I think that you would agree with it and that it best represents the truth from the neutral and far point of view. David Betesh ( talk)
great. David Betesh
Please remain WP:CIV in discussions even/especially when in disagreement with others.
The cited notes represent an increasing problem and I request that you take a breather when you feel an itch to get personal. Jaakobou Chalk Talk 10:30, 20 April 2008 (UTC)
Jaakobou: Seeing that you have strong feelings on this matter and others disagree, I'd suggest that you first provide some evidence to support your theory. I'm not sure what type of evidence would work since I find it to be a "Jews and anyone in contact with Israel don't have a say on naming conventions" theory, so I feel you should at least make an effort to persuade with something other than rejection of 'International/World Bank' sources.
MeteorMaker: In case your disagreement is based on factual reasons and not just pure emotion, it would be interesting to hear your objective explanation how the Israel Central Bureau of Statistics, the Bank of Israel Research Dept, the "Coordinator of Government Operations in Judea-Samaria and the Gaza District", one former consultant for the Israeli government, and (then-)PM Yitzhak Shamir are not affiliated with the Israeli government in any way.
Jaakobou: Please work with others rather than reject every source given (above) on account that it's author is somehow connected with Jews.
MeteorMaker: Your sources are sort of self-rejecting, if you indeed set out to prove that the term "Judea" is widely used by anybody else than Israelis - and 9 out of 10 turn out to have been written by Israelis. I advise you to not misrepresent my views and try to cast them in an anti-Semitic light btw, that does not reflect well on your credibility and appears uncivil. Now that you have confirmed that the term is used mostly in Israel, could you elaborate on why you advocate replacing a well-established English toponym with it?
Jaakobou: I feel this discussion has lost it's value; Certainly there is a problem if you feel that you've been accused of anti-Semitism as that was not my intention. I and a few other editors disagree with you regarding the interpretation of sources. To clarify, it is my opinion that anything published under "international" or "world", makes the point that it's an 'international' document, regardless if an Israeli or a pro-Israeli (Jew or not) was part of it's writing process.
MeteorMaker: That is a pretty ludicrous statement. Direct quotes by anybody in an "international" document become the accepted "international" view at the instant they're published? Or are you suggesting that verbatim quotes by, say, Yitzhak Shamir (one of your examples) should be censored when printed in a publication by the World Bank? I accept your apology for accusing me of "rejecting every source on account that it's author is somehow connected with Jews". Don't confuse "Jews" and "Israelis" again. Should you overcome the feeling that "this discussion has lost its value", you are welcome back to try to support your claim that "Judea" is a valid term outside Israel. Until then, I must conclude that you have failed.
I think you may have made some error saying you reverted an edit of mine from 4 May.
[1] I couldn't recall making the edit you suggested I've made, and indeed, I can't find making any edits on that date:
Jezreel Valley (
|
talk |
history |
protect |
delete |
links |
watch |
logs |
views).
With respect,
Jaakobou
Chalk Talk 20:24, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
Hi MeteorMaker.
Regarding you pushing my article to the talk page. Well it was my first attempt at a major updating of a Wikipedia article. I observed that the original article was so out of date that it needed major reforms. I tried to update this page with information that was more up to date. I notice you have kept some of my points but have restored most of the passages I tried to update. I observe that you say I am pushing "a minority POV re the location of Thapsacus" and that you have merged my points "minus the unsourced claims". Well let's compare these two statements alongside a passage your restored. Take the first paragraph under Location, bit by bit.
Where does this material come from? It's not referenced. Who said it was 100 miles north-east of Tadmor? Name one ancient source that can verify this statement. Who said it is the modern town of Deir? (I suppose they mean modern Dayr az Zawr). Anyone with geographic sense would immediately see the impossibility of it being anywhere near ancient Thapsacus. Name one modern historian who would even support such a claim. And who "now assumed" it to be at Suriyah? Where is the reference?
What does some town near Shechem have to do with a town on the Euphrates? Why is this article even quoting a 1897 source which is saying something totally unrelated to the Euphrates' Thapsacus? And who says it is unlikely? Is not this the author of the article giving his own unverified comment.
At last a reference to a location, even if only a tertiary source. And guess what, they get it right. But does this satisfy the author of the article? No, his bias will not allow him to accept this. So he adds his own un-referenced opinion, totally going against the plain reading of Pliny 5.21 (a reference you removed) who says of Carchemish, under its later name of Europus, "Europus formerly Thapsacus".
Well a second reference and surprise it gets it almost correct (when it says "near Carchemish"). But why is this source being quoted at all? It has nothing to do with the location of Thapsacus. It only mentions it, in passing, as a place through which Alexander marched on his way to Gaugamela.
So, on your criticism.
Am I "pushing a minority POV re the location of Thapsacus"? Maybe I am when compared to the 100+ year old sources the article likes to quote, but not amongst modern scholars who have the benefit of a 100 years of new archaeological discoveries. Again look at the references in the above paragraph that you restored - even these say or hint at Carchemish. I am not the one who is pushing a minority view. It is clearly the author of the article who is pushing his POV.
Do I make "unsourced claims"? Are you are trying to compare me with the numerous unsourced claims in your restored paragraph? Have another look at the mass of references I gave. All the ancient sources were quoted and citied. Most of the modern citations were from academic journals in the field of ancient history.
Joe Baker ( talk) 11:55, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
You appear to have followed User:Amoruso to four different articles solely for the purpose of reverting him. This kind of behavior is a violation of WP:STALK; please desist. Jayjg (talk) 01:01, 2 July 2008 (UTC)
Meteormaker, you were caught in a lie by user:Jayjg - which is it, did you watch the same page or did you stalk? I need this information if I report you. You will banned for your personal attacks and stalking in the future. You are in violation of WP:STALK. If "following another user around" is accompanied by tendentiousness, personal attacks, or other disruptive behavior, it may become a very serious matter. Amoruso ( talk) 23:35, 2 July 2008 (UTC)
Amuroso does seem to be a bit of a stalker himself. Further evidence, from his contribs log:
- 03:33, 3 July 2008 (hist) (diff) Ariel (city) (→External links: Cities in the West Bank) (top)
- 03:30, 3 July 2008 (hist) (diff) Tel Rumeida (already hebron.) (top)
- 03:29, 3 July 2008 (hist) (diff) Beitar Illit (→References: Cities in the West Bank) (top)
- 03:28, 3 July 2008 (hist) (diff) Joseph's Tomb (→External links: Nablus, Geography of the West Bank]....) (top)
- 03:27, 3 July 2008 (hist) (diff) Judea and Samaria (Geography of the West Bank) (top)
- 03:26, 3 July 2008 (hist) (diff) Kiryat Arba (→References: Hebron more specific) (top)
- 03:26, 3 July 2008 (hist) (diff) Ma'ale Adumim (→External links: Cities in the West Bank) (top)
- 03:25, 3 July 2008 (hist) (diff) Mevo'ot Yericho (→External links: already in jericho - more specific)
- 03:24, 3 July 2008 (hist) (diff) Rachel's Tomb (already in a sub-cat) (top)
- 23:37, 2 July 2008 (hist) (diff) User talk:MeteorMaker (→WP:STALK)
All these changes are reverts of changes I've made:
- 21:46, 2 July 2008 (hist) (diff) Tel Rumeida (Cat added.)
- 21:45, 2 July 2008 (hist) (diff) Rachel's Tomb (Cat added.)
- 21:42, 2 July 2008 (hist) (diff) Mevo'ot Yericho (Cat added.)
- 21:40, 2 July 2008 (hist) (diff) Ma'ale Adumim (Cat added.)
- 21:40, 2 July 2008 (hist) (diff) m Kiryat Arba (Cat added.)
- 21:20, 2 July 2008 (hist) (diff) Judea and Samaria (Cat added.)
- 21:20, 2 July 2008 (hist) (diff) m Joseph's Tomb (Cat added.)
- 21:13, 2 July 2008 (hist) (diff) Beitar Illit (Cat added.)
- 21:08, 2 July 2008 (hist) (diff) Ariel (city) (cat added.)
To his civility issues, his history of making baseless accusations, and his contempt for Wiki rules that rendered him a two-month ban, we can apparently add at least a slight amount of hypocrisy. MeteorMaker ( talk) 11:23, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
"This user, who for some reason doesn't have a user page, has been stalking me persistently. He reverts me on all pages, trying to provoke RV wars. and that's the only thing he does in wikipedia apparently. See his "contributions" - all stalking me - I've asked him to stop but he seemed to ignore it." [11].
Dear MeteorMaker,
Please take care of Promised Land as well!
IMHO this article should be main article for Land of Israel.
Thanks -- Submitter to Truth ( talk) 19:07, 9 July 2008 (UTC)
Your further comments here would be appreciated. Thanks, TheMightyQuill ( talk) 15:30, 17 July 2008 (UTC)
Hello. Concerning inclusion in Category:Jewish terrorism please see Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Israel Palestine Collaboration#Category:Palestinian terrorists and Category:Israeli terrorists. -- Timeshifter ( talk) 15:05, 2 November 2008 (UTC)
Because we had an edit conflict, and I outdented too. CasualObserver'48 ( talk) 14:15, 7 November 2008 (UTC)
Hello, MeteorMaker.
I've examined the history of the now protected Samaria, and the (vast) discussion on the talk page regarding your controversial edits to the article. I'm afraid I have to agree with the consensus on the page that you are being disruptive by your repeated attempts to force your terminology onto the article.
I have no opinion on the correctness of your position, but the fact remains that it is overwhelmingly rejected by the other editors and that, since Wikipedia relies on consensus to reach neutrality, editors who regularly go against consensus are disrupting the process. You may wish to avail yourself of the various avenues of dispute resolution, including possible mediation, in order to bring your proposed edits to a wider audience for reconsideration.
Please consider this a warning that under the ArbCom decision Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Palestine-Israel articles, any uninvolved administrator may, on his or her own discretion, impose sanctions on any editor working in the area of conflict if, despite being warned, that editor repeatedly or seriously fails to adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia, any expected standards of behavior, or any normal editorial process. The sanctions imposed may include blocks of up to one year in length; bans from editing any page or set of pages within the area of conflict; bans on any editing related to the topic or its closely related topics; restrictions on reverts or other specified behaviors; or any other measures which the imposing administrator believes are reasonably necessary to ensure the smooth functioning of the project.
In particular, further attempts edit that article, or any other article in the area of conflict, against consensus will lead to sanctions being imposed on you. — Coren (talk) 05:50, 15 November 2008 (UTC)
I get the uncomfortable feeling that MeteorMaker has both the logic of his claim (Samaria barely used outside Israel) and WP:Policy on his side (use English names, NPOV etc). Clearly, I've not examined more than a portion of the TalkPage discussions, but I can see Jayjg re-introducing material/clips that are claimed (rather persuasively) to have been refuted. Under these circumstances, uninvolved admins should be examining, explaining and defending policy - or judging the quality of the discources (ie identifying disruptive conduct), not adjudicating on content disputes which (we're constantly told) admins cannot do.
My suggestion to MeteorMaker is to build a table of the examples offered, with justifications and refutations in separate columns. Either Ian Lustuck is an Israeli or he's not, either he prefers the use of Samaria or use of the West Bank, etc. Without a very careful examination of the issues I can't be sure what's going on - I and others would have a much clearer picture if the evidence was laid out carefully.
User of term | Sources where/when used | Samaria Yes/No | Samaria is in regular main-stream English use | Samaria is in partisan or non-English use |
---|---|---|---|---|
Anthony H. Cordesman | Arab-Israeli Military Forces in an Era of Asymmetric Wars. Center for Strategic and International Studies (Washington, D.C.) Greenwood Publishing Group, 2006 p.90 | No | From April to December 2002, there were 17 suicide attacks directed from the northern part of the West Bank, referred to by some as Samaria.’ | |
Ian Lustick | For the Land and the Lord, 1988 p.205 n.4 | No | For political purposes, and despite the geographical imprecision involved, the annexationalist camp in Israel prefers to refer to the area between the green line and the Jordan River not as the West Bank, but as Judea and Samaria.’ Ian S.Lustick, For the Land and the Lord, 1988 p.205 n.4 | |
Foo3 | www.this source | Yes | Applicable because this is regular English-language use. |
PR talk 11:58, 17 November 2008 (UTC)
Done [20]. Thanks for the suggestion, PR. MeteorMaker ( talk) 22:25, 7 December 2008 (UTC)
The page talks about Palestinian state, not Palestinian Country/area/region. There are problems with bot on others wiki. Please correct the definition as i did.-- Lord Hidelan ( talk) 20:02, 25 November 2008 (UTC)
You currently appear to be engaged in an edit war according to the reverts you have made on Israeli settlement. Note that the three-revert rule prohibits making more than three reversions on a single page within a 24 hour period. Additionally, users who perform a large number of reversions in content disputes may be blocked for edit warring, even if they do not technically violate the three-revert rule. If you continue, you may be blocked from editing. Please do not repeatedly revert edits, but use the talk page to work towards wording and content that gains a consensus among editors. If necessary, pursue dispute resolution. NoCal100 ( talk) 22:39, 27 November 2008 (UTC)
I don't know what to do with these people (or rather what to do about what they get up to). They push obscure and/or anachronistic, politicised terminology into articles as if it were mainstream or equivalent to the current mainstream, and then start waving WP rules at you triumphantly as soon as they manage to google a couple of sources which can be interpreted as backing up their worldview, even when 100s more contradict it. Part of me wants to just walk away and save my time and energy over what is after all only an odd word here and there, but then I ask myself - hang on, why should people get away with inserting this minority viewpoint propaganda into what is - for better or worse - perhaps currently one of the world's main information and reference resources? Just a message of support for an occasional fellow-struggler ... -- Nickhh ( talk) 23:11, 30 November 2008 (UTC)
You currently appear to be engaged in an edit war according to the reverts you have made on Israeli settlement. Note that the three-revert rule prohibits making more than three reversions on a single page within a 24 hour period. Additionally, users who perform a large number of reversions in content disputes may be blocked for edit warring, even if they do not technically violate the three-revert rule. If you continue, you may be blocked from editing. Please do not repeatedly revert edits, but use the talk page to work towards wording and content that gains a consensus among editors. If necessary, pursue dispute resolution. - Canadian Monkey ( talk) 17:27, 1 December 2008 (UTC)
You're free to insert whatever straw man arguments you want in your "RFC", but don't remove my own comments from the RFC again. Thanks. Jayjg (talk) 03:57, 11 December 2008 (UTC)
MeteorMaker, undoing the actions of another editor in a complex way, by slightly changing your wording each time even though you are aware that this does not address the fundamental issue, also counts as a 3RR violation. I strongly suggest you revert yourself, before you are blocked for this. Jayjg (talk) 00:56, 14 December 2008 (UTC)
Hello. Today you have made substantially the same edit to West Bank four times, restoring a version of the lede from December the ninth. Whilst the edits are not verbatim identical there is little semantic difference. For these edits another editor has reported you to the edit warring noticeboard. You have been previously advised that edit-warring is forbidden.
Additionally, you made this edit with the clear intent to disrupt the article to make a point.
Thus, for violating the three-revert-rule and deliberate disruption, I have blocked you for 24 hours.
If you believe this block is unjustified, you may contest the block by adding the text {{unblock|your reason here}} below.
CIreland ( talk) 02:50, 14 December 2008 (UTC)
Sorry about the accidental tag. I was researching vandalism from an IP, and when I had the tag ready to put on their page, I accidentally clicked the wrong tab in my browser and put it on your page instead of theirs. The correct location was here. [28] Sorry for any confusion, -- El on ka 19:52, 16 December 2008 (UTC)
I'm fine with both being links, or both being lists, but don't remove my list of sources and replace it with a link, unless you do the same with your endlessly repeated list of sources too. Jayjg (talk) 22:57, 24 December 2008 (UTC)
Hi, as I've been reviewing your contribs, MeteorMaker ( talk · contribs), I've been a bit concerned by how you've been rather focused on this "Samaria" issue, and have done little else for weeks. It hasn't always been like this, so could I perhaps give you a gentle nudge to work on other things as well? We definitely have a lot that needs doing on the project. :) Even just clicking on Random article a few times, I usually find something that I want to fix (or at least tag as needing cleanup) within a few clicks. Perhaps also create a userpage? Having a bit of information about your interests would be helpful, would help increase the trust level with other editors, and would also keep your name from showing up as a redlink! -- El on ka 21:35, 25 December 2008 (UTC)
With your mastery of the subject and the additional evidence from a few other hands as well, for both sides of the argument, it should be worth keeping in mind that these two long threads could well constitute an extremely well-documented NPOV wiki article on I/P terminology, or more specifically on history of 'West Bank/Samaria-Judea' usage, independently of how the decision goes. Something along those lines, to avoid wasting much closely mustered evidence in archived nooks. Best regards for the New Year Nishidani ( talk) 13:34, 31 December 2008 (UTC)
Wikistalking is a big no-no. Consider this a polite warning. Repetition will result in more severe consequences. NoCal100 ( talk) 17:05, 1 January 2009 (UTC)
So, when you "happen" to revert Jayjg on a page you never edited before, it is because you are 'active in a dispute involving the ADL [34] ", but when I revert you on the same article, being involved in the exact same dispute dispute involving the ADL [35], I am hounding you? Don't you ever get tired of playing these silly games? NoCal100 ( talk) 22:36, 16 February 2009 (UTC)
MM, this edit summary was uncivil. [44] When you use inflammatory edit summaries, it tends to just make people defensive, and less likely to want to work with you towards an amicable compromise. So in the future, please try to keep comments and edit summaries in a more neutral tone? This will enable you to be much more effective. Thanks. -- El on ka 19:20, 15 January 2009 (UTC)
MeteorMaker, this edit was a bit much, where you removed information that had a variety of reliable sources. [45] Please don't do this kind of thing again. If you disagree with information that's on the page, but the sources are solid, you may wish to modify the information from those sources, but please don't remove the citations themselves. Thanks, -- El on ka 21:36, 17 January 2009 (UTC)
MeteorMaker, you have been cautioned before about removing citations to reliable sources. Since you have started up again, I am going to make this formal: based on the recent pattern of reverts, and working your way through several Israel-Palestine articles and making Samaria-related reverts, I am therefore instituting a formal ban: You are banned from
This ban is in place for 90 days.
If you feel that Samaria-related information in an article needs to be changed, or that a citation needs to be removed, then please bring it up at the talkpage, and, if there is consensus, let other editors make the actual edit. You are not banned from editing the articles, and you are still welcome to change information to try and find a compromise wording, as long as you are not engaging in reverts. Please let me know if you have any questions, -- El on ka 17:04, 14 February 2009 (UTC)
MeteorMaker, thanks for your messages, let me try to explain the wiki-philosophy here. My apologies for the length of this post, but I'm going to try and be as thorough as possible, for both you and the other editors who are watching the discussion:
First, let me be clear that I have no opinion on whether or not Samaria or Judea or biblical or any of these terms do or don't appear in any of the articles. Whether we end up with the terms in the articles or out of the articles, I really have no preference. What my goal is, as an administrator, is to enforce policies, and to reduce disruption to the project. In most cases around the encyclopedia, this is fairly straightforward. For example, we'll have one longterm editor inserting information from reliable sources, and we'll have another editor deleting entire paragraphs and replacing them with, "This is wrong." So we revert the latter editor and instruct them about policies and dispute resolution, and if they continue disrupting without backing up their arguments, we block them, and life in the rest of the project goes on. :)
In some areas though, especially Israel/Palestine, the disputes are much more complex, so administrators have to be a bit more creative. For example, this "Samaria" issue, which has been going on for a long time now. From my ("I don't care") point of view, there's one group of editors who say "Include" and another group of editors who say "Don't include," and this has been going on for awhile. I know that there are claims of Pro-Israel Anti-Israel Pro-Palestine Anti-Palestine yadayada, but again, administrators aren't going to care too much about that. What we do care about, is policies, especially WP:V and WP:UNDUE and WP:DR.
To give a more specific example: When editor A puts something into an article with reliable sources, and editor B removes the information and/or the sources, and absent any other input from other editors, the administrators are (usually) going to support editor A, and editor B is going to be encouraged to follow other steps in dispute resolution. There are exceptions to this, such as when dealing with biographies of living people. With BLPs, the burden of proof swaps around, and it's the responsibility of the editor wanting to include the information (especially if it's negative), to prove that it's well-sourced and appropriate in someone's bio, before it can be allowed to stick.
Getting away from biographies though and back to geography: we have editor A with sources, and editor B who says that the information (and sources) are giving undue weight to a particular concept. What editor B should now do is follow WP:DR: They can try rewriting the article to find a compromise, where editor A's information is included, but editor B can add their own (sourced) information as a counterpoint, or rework the wording of editor A's addition. Or, editor B can start a thread at the article's talkpage, and either find a compromise there with editor A, or start inviting other editors in, per an RfC or notices at a WikiProject or noticeboard. If the information which was added by editor A is a genuine problem, or a clear violation of WP:UNDUE, other editors will see it for what it is, the consensus will be clear, and the information and/or sources can come out of the article. If the consensus is not clear, try inviting more editors, or try mediation.
If things remain deadlocked, the tiebreaker may still be made by the sources. Not by quantity of sources, but by the existence of the sources, and the opinions of editors on how to interpret those sources. If there are 10 reliable sources saying "blue", and 30 reliable sources saying "red", and one group of editors says, "The article should say 'blue'", and another group of editors says, "You guys are insane, the article should obviously say 'red'", then the administrators are going to look at the situation, and if there's no clear consensus, the decision is probably going to be, "The article should say both blue and red, in proper proportion to how the topic is presented in reliable sources". So applying this to Samaria, it means (as I'm interpreting the discussions thus far), that the term can be used in the articles, as long as it is properly attributed and placed in the proper proportion. At Israeli settlement, this seemed to boil down to a compromise of, "Samaria can be mentioned in the article, but shouldn't be in the lead."
As for why you were banned and others weren't, please don't take this as an indication that no one else will ever be banned. Sometimes multiple bans are issued each day, sometimes one ban at a time, sometimes they're staggered out over a week, it really depends. I have to be careful what I say because I don't want to inflame the situation, but it's reasonable to assume that I (and other administrators) are observing the behavior of several editors in this dispute, and may institute other bans. To see who's at risk, look at WP:ARBPIA, check the names in the "notified" list, and also review the history of the talkpages of other editors in this dispute. If I or another administrator has warned/nudged/cautioned them, it means that editor's behavior is being watched.
Ultimately the Samaria dispute seems to come down to this: One group of editors wants the Samaria term in the article. Another group doesn't. There are sources both ways. There is no clear consensus among the editors as to how things should be handled. RfCs have not brought clarity to the issue. The community of wider editors doesn't care. The public doesn't seem to care too much either (otherwise we'd get a stream of outraged anonymous messages on the talkpage). So if there's no consensus, and no one else seems to care, let it go. It's not worth this much angst, over how to word one sentence on a much longer article. You may also wish to review Wikipedia:Lamest edit wars, for examples of other places around the project where editors spent way too much time quibbling over very minor points. We've got a huge encyclopedia here, with thousands of new articles flowing in every day. There's lots of work that needs to be done. So on this "Samaria" question, we talk it over, we flip a coin, if nothing's clear, we put a pin in it and move on to other debates. Editors that don't seem able to let things go, especially when they're not working on anything else on the project, are probably going to be asked to leave.
Another measuring stick that administrators use, is looking at the editing history of each editor. If there's one editor who has created multiple articles, who is constantly arguing with another editor who's never created a single article, the "writing" editor will often receive better backup from the administrators, to allow them to get back to building the encyclopedia, while the "arguing" editor may simply be removed from the equation. It doesn't mean that their arguments were necessarily bad. But if their arguments were presented, they've made their case, the options have been considered, and the decision went against their arguments (or there's no consensus), the community expectation is that the arguing editor should let things go and move on to other projects. Now don't get me wrong, consensus can change, so it may be worth re-opening the discussion several months down the line. But sometimes we just have to say, "This is the way the articles are going to be written for awhile," and shoo people away from the discussion to encourage them to work on other things.
Does that help explain the wiki-subtleties at all? For your own purposes, if you'd like to have a stronger voice in discussions: Stop worrying about the Samaria question for awhile. Work on other articles, or even better, expand or create other articles. Having a userpage isn't just for personal information about you, but for information about what you've worked on. Look at other editors' userpages, and you'll see that we talk about the articles and topic areas where we work, and we usually proudly banner the articles that we've helped to promote to a state of higher quality. To do this yourself, pick an article that's in so-so shape, and improve it to good article or featured article status. Or if your talents are more in "article review" than "article creation", help out at WP:GAN, and you'll see there's a backlog of articles where reviews have been requested. You could be a decisionmaker on whether or not nominated articles should be promoted. This kind of work would be extremely helpful to the encyclopedia, and would have the added bonus of giving you recognizable accomplishments that you could place on your userpage. Which would give you a much stronger voice in any article discussions where you choose to participate. -- El on ka 17:46, 15 February 2009 (UTC)
You might be interested in expressing your views regarding the lead of the IAK article on the mediation page: Wikipedia:Mediation Cabal/Cases/2009-01/If Americans Knew StN ( talk) 18:04, 30 January 2009 (UTC)
FYI : [48] Ceedjee ( talk) 11:42, 7 February 2009 (UTC)
Hi MeteorMaker,
Just to let you know, I've posted at WP:AE regarding User:NoCal100 and Samaria.
Cheers, pedrito - talk - 18.02.2009 15:28
I have reported you recent violation of the ban placed on you by Elonka at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Arbitration enforcement. Canadian Monkey ( talk) 01:06, 24 February 2009 (UTC)
Just a word of advice. Although you didn't break the letter of Elonka's ban, the spirit of her ban was clearly that you should not edit-war over the Samaria naming issue. I strongly advise you to work with other editors to find a mutually acceptable global solution - don't be tempted to try to impose unilateral solutions. -- ChrisO ( talk) 07:34, 25 February 2009 (UTC)
I have started a Request for Arbitration regarding the use of northern/southern West Bank vs. Judea and Samaria. Since you have been involved in this debate, I have included you in the request.
Cheers, pedrito - talk - 25.02.2009 09:31
About time. Thank you. MeteorMaker ( talk) 12:08, 25 February 2009 (UTC)
An Arbitration case involving you has been opened, and is located here. Please add any evidence you may wish the Arbitrators to consider to the evidence sub-page, Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/West Bank - Judea and Samaria/Evidence. Please submit your evidence within one week, if possible. You may also contribute to the case on the workshop sub-page, Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/West Bank - Judea and Samaria/Workshop.
On behalf of the Arbitration Committee, Tznkai ( talk) 04:51, 1 March 2009 (UTC)
Just a note MM. You've had a long haul, mostly alone, and copped flack from go to woe on the right path (cf.Robert Frost's The Road Not Taken, refers to most of us, your fellow editors. We thought it too sheer to climb, given the hazards). But now you are on the plateau, in company, before the stern olympian gaze of extremely experienced administrators. They don't need advice, or 'musts'. I suggest as a courtesy to them that you strike that 'must be dealt with'. Just state the facts. As you note 'mudslinging' is ugly, and to avoid being dragged into the sludge, a few dry corrective notes are sufficient. Regards Nishidani ( talk) 14:22, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
@ Jaakobou: Jaakobou Chalk Talk 14:59, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
- "Within articles, places should generally be referred to by the same name as is used in their article title, or a historic name when discussing a past period. Use of one name for a town in 2000 does not determine what name we should give the same town in 1900 or in 1400, nor the other way around. Many towns, however, should keep the same name; it is a question of fact, of actual English usage, in all cases."
MeteorMaker, after reviewing parts of the discussion page and the evidence presented (again), I am convinced that there is indeed such a trend, both within the scope of the current case, and outside this scope (the evidence was, as I said before, provided by Jayjg and others). There is therefore no reason for me to strike out any of my comments, and I would appreciate if you stopped trying to pressure me into doing so. Right now I am following the case with interest and awaiting ArbCom's decision, but mostly improving other articles not related to the dispute. In fact, I suggest that you do the same (see Khoikhoi's section under Evidence). -- Ynhockey ( Talk) 20:29, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
'It's the bigger picture that is important, and the bigger picture is simply that certain editors dismiss sources simply because they are Israeli, Jewish or Zionist (and if I needed further proof that this is true, Nishidani above openly admits to doing so).
I don't think I've made any "false claims" about your behavior, and thus will not be amending my statement. Your were restricted from removing citations to reliable sources and from reverting over the Samaria question. You violated both restrictions, and then wikilawyered to claim that (a) removing well sourced information while keeping the citations in the article, which now refer to nothing at all, is not a violation since you kept the "citation" itself; and (b) that reverting "Samaria" is not a revert if no other version w/o Samaria exists. On the latter, even one of your staunchest supporters found it necessary to tell you that at a minimum, you were violating the spirit, if not the letter, of the restriction - which is the very definition of wikilawyering. If Elonka comes along and says she does not think these were violations, I will reconsider, but until then, the evidence speaks for itself. Canadian Monkey ( talk) 16:58, 16 March 2009 (UTC)
In reply to your question to Jayjg at User talk:Jayjg, I'll give you my own opinion. The first quote ("regions once known as Judea and Samaria" [63]) comes closest, in my opinion, to supporting the statement that "Samaria is not a modern toponym", but does not explicitly support it; one interpretation of it can be taken as implying the idea, but another interpretation is that it's saying that the ancient kingdoms were known by those names, and may be implying that those kingdoms no longer exist as such, but is not (under this possible interpretation) implying that no one uses those names to indicate the land areas. The second quote says "the lands of Judea and Samaria, known today as the West Bank". [64] It is explicitly using the names "Judea" and "Samaria" to identify certain land areas, thus implicitly contradicting the hypothesis by using the terms itself. It states that they are known today as the West Bank, but does not state that they are not also known today as Judea and Samaria, so it is not explicitly supporting the hypothesis. Re the third quote ("historic term [that] is used by the Israeli government, Zionists and Israelis, to refer to the modern region, but it is no longer used by others" [65]): please note that "the Israeli government, Zionists and Israelis" are people. Therefore this quote is stating that people use the term "Samaria" to refer to a certain region. It therefore contradicts the hypothesis. The fourth quote ("In the second century of the Common Era, following the Bar Kokhba revolt, the names "Judaea" and "Samaria" were abolished by the Romans" [66]) seems pretty much irrelevant: I don't think Roman law about what placenames to use is generally followed by English speakers today, and information about what placenames were used back then is probably somewhat out of date by now. ☺ Coppertwig ( talk) 19:53, 28 March 2009 (UTC)
Hi. You said on the workshop page, "In this case, we are arguing about whether J&S are used as terms for the modern West Bank outside Israel or not." Would you clarify that, please; what exactly do you mean by "used ... outside Israel"? What about being used by an Israeli who is outside Israel at the time, or being used by a non-Israeli who is in Israel? What about something written by an Israeli in Israel but published outside Israel, and what about something written by a non-Israeli outside Israel but published within Israel? Thanks in advance. ☺ Coppertwig ( talk) 00:08, 3 April 2009 (UTC)
Hi, MeteorMaker. Re my first post in this thread: that post is in reply to a question you asked Jayjg. I have the impression you didn't understand it, because later in this thread you said "You came here on March 28, started a section you called "Toponym", and stated that a quote you had found "contradicted the hypothesis" [74], without further explanation what that "hypothesis" might be." [75] Because you said "a quote you had found", I have the impression that you didn't understand that the quotes I was talking about in my post at the beginning of this thread are the quotes that you mentioned in your question to Jayjg. The "hypothesis" is something you were asking about in your question: it is "Samaria is not a modern toponym". In reply to your further question (where you asked "Armed with the new knowledge that nobody has ever denied the fact that "Samaria" is used in Israel and by Zionists, would you evaluate the quote from Zionism and Israel - Encyclopedic Dictionary differently?" my answer is no, I would not interpret it differently; I would interpret it just as I did, as contradicting the hypothesis, because if the source is stating that Israelis are using the term, then the source is contradicting the hypothesis that it is not a modern toponym. My interpretation would not change, because I was interpreting what that particular quote said, not what might be said or assumed elsewhere. To me, a statement that something is not a modern toponym is roughly equivalent to a statement that nobody uses it any more. If Israelis are using it, then it's not true that nobody is using it, so it's not true that it's not a modern toponym, in my opinion. ☺ Coppertwig ( talk) 20:32, 15 April 2009 (UTC)
"Please note that "the Israeli government, Zionists and Israelis" are people. Therefore this quote is stating that people use the term "Samaria" to refer to a certain region. It therefore contradicts the hypothesis [that Samaria is not a modern toponym]".
So… I had an idea (or rather, cribbed an idea from Nishidani). What if, instead of topic-banning some of the most useful, articulate, and involved editors in the IP area (on both sides) for a year, you all got together and worked on Judea, Samaria, and Judea and Samaria with the goal of promoting them into GA status in two months’ time? That way (and given the relatively public nature of the arb case), there would hopefully be wide-ranging and neutral community input – sort of an RfC on steroids. If you all did not succeed, it would be back to the arb case (which would be placed on hiatus pending the outcome). The arbs (some of them anyway) seem to be saying you all can’t work together. I don’t think that’s true, and I also think that to the extent it is true, the possibility of avoiding more unpleasantness in this arb case might lead to extra flexibility and reasonableness. In the interest of full disclosure: I don’t particularly care at all how the ultimate content issue falls out -- Judea, Samaria, West Bank, Elbonia, whatever: I’d just like to avoid a mass-banning that would have a seriously deleterious effect on IP articles. What say? (If you wish to reply, you may do so here) IronDuke 02:22, 31 March 2009 (UTC)
In reply to your comment on Jayjg's talk page: It seems to me that the following misunderstandings occurred in the discussions leading up to the arbcom case. This is according to my impressions of what happened, and I'm open to input from the participants about anything I might not have right about their own parts in this.
When you used the phrase "outside Israel" ("What you need is a quote that actually states that "Samaria" is widely used outside Israel." [78]), Jayjg apparently misunderstood this to mean physically located in a different country, which apparently you didn't mean. [79] This led (as I see it) to a series of comments and accusations back and forth, with a continuation of the same misunderstanding at every step, leading ultimately to your accusing Jayjg of lying and to your accusing Jayjg of accusing you of "distasteful ethnic discrimination". ("By any definition of the word, Jayjg lied when he repeatedly accused me of "distasteful ethnic discrimination".") [80] (I hope you don't mind, MeteorMaker, but since I'm repeating this here, I feel a need to repeat, for the benefit of anyone who might read this, that your use of quotation marks there is not intended to indicate an exact sequence of words. [81])
When you used the phrase "same area". ("..., please indicate where in the sentence it is also stated that Samaria and the West Bank are different-epoch names for the same area." [82]), Jayjg apparently misunderstood this to mean the same piece of land, which apparently you didn't mean (last paragraph of this diff: [83]) This led (as I see it) to a series of comments back and forth, leading ultimately to G-Dett accusing Jayjg of declaring victory on the basis of a "red herring" [84]
Jayjg said some things that G-Dett interpreted [85] as a demand for "exactly that verbal formulation". As I say in my evidence, Jayjg later confirmed that he had not been insisting that the source had to use the exact same words. [86] G-Dett later refactored, striking out "exactly" [87] and later explained: apparently G-Dett's statement in evidence is not intended to assert that Jayjg was demanding a source containing a specific string of words. [88]
There may also have been other misunderstandings.
To help clear up some of the above misunderstandings, I would appreciate it if you would answer these questions:
Here, where you say "outside Israel", what do you mean by that phrase? Please either complete a sentence such as "By 'outside Israel', I mean ... " or else reformulate your statement so that it no longer uses that phrase.
Here, where you say "same area", what do you mean by that phrase?
I hope you don't mind these answers and these questions. I'm trying to help establish clear communication in order to remove sources of irritation and allow the discussion to proceed productively. ☺ Coppertwig ( talk) 15:31, 16 April 2009 (UTC)
Now that you know that the "hypothesis" was "Samaria is not considered a modern toponym except in Israel", would you still say that the quote from Zionism and Israel - Encyclopedic Dictionary contradicts it?
supports the statement"Samaria is a historic term that is used by the Israeli government, Zionists and Israelis to refer to the modern West Bank region, but it is no longer used by others" [93]
"Samaria is a historic term that is used by the Israeli government, Zionists and Israelis to refer to the modern West Bank region, but it is no longer used by others."
Kirill has asked some questions here. You are invited to respond. -- Tznkai ( talk) 22:23, 16 April 2009 (UTC)
Heyo MeteorMaker,
I just started an
RfC request for our recent terminology dispute.
Warm regards,
Jaakobou
Chalk Talk 15:49, 18 April 2009 (UTC)
I apologize. You're right: that line of evidence wasn't well-supported. I may have been getting two different issues confused in my mind. I've replaced it with a different line which I think is better supported, with a different diff.
I said I was ready to help you, too, when the opportunity arose. Today I seem to have found such an opportunity, so I've done this edit, which I hope helps you.
I'm sorry if I haven't expressed it in the most diplomatic way, but my request that you assume good faith is sincere. I know it can be hard, but please think it over. Things that seem obvious to you don't seem obvious to me. Remember that the same situation will look very different to different people with different POVs. AGF really is a reasonable choice in this situation. ☺ Coppertwig ( talk) 18:25, 18 April 2009 (UTC)
However this madness plays out, just a note on the West Bank consensus stuff. The central problem as I see it, if it is accepted that using Israeli geographical terms to define the Palestinian West Bank is inappropriate, remains that of resolving how to reconcile the fact that the Governorates of the Palestinian National Authority cover the whole territory subsumed by Israel as the 'Judea & Samaria' district. Israeli districts are in Palestinian governorates technically, and vice versa, Effectively 70% of the land is under Israeli military and civil authority, so allowing 'each his own' means 70% being described in Israeli-specific terms. Just a thought.
Given the way the immense lumbering juggernaut of bureaucracy is crunching underfoot any nuanced knowledge that has appeared, as politics, partisanship and misguided or monocular obsession with abstract rules (wiki formalism will ever trump substance), and not closely informed area understanding, takes hold, as was forseeable from the outset, the result will probably usurp a clear vision of what is required to make the I/P area workable. It is not understood that defenders of the status quo are quite happy with leaving things in a mess: in the lack of improvement of atmosphere there, the usual non-completion of articles, seesawing up and down with jumbled POVs, fits the bill for many. Completion of articles would mean clarity for the reader, and I don't think most editors in there desire this end. There is a quite clear cynical awareness that individuals (except you know who) do not really count for the functioning of wikipedia, and lose one or two in a sweep up, and you will have others drifting in to create the impression of ongoing work. This is understandable, since the achievers work on their own, in unconflicted areas, and have little or no experience of what it is like working in area subject to political vetoes on virtually everything.
I suppose, in giving up on this place, I should conclude by thanking you for your immense, acute and pertinacious work in trying to establish some conceptual order among the shambles. It hasn't been recognized. And it looks as if it will be blocked. Best regards, MM. Sorry I couldn't be more helpful. Nishidani ( talk) 08:43, 28 April 2009 (UTC)
There is some information there that you might find useful. In any event comments are welcome. harlan ( talk) 12:59, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
You currently appear to be engaged in an edit war according to the reverts you have made on Israeli targeted killings. Note that the three-revert rule prohibits making more than three reversions on a single page within a 24 hour period. Additionally, users who perform a large number of reversions in content disputes may be blocked for edit warring, even if they do not technically violate the three-revert rule. If you continue, you may be blocked from editing. Please do not repeatedly revert edits, but use the talk page to work towards wording and content that gains a consensus among editors. If necessary, pursue dispute resolution.
Considering that there are now some specific FoF agianst you with regards to edit warring in the ArbCom case, this is particularly unwise. Canadian Monkey ( talk) 23:34, 30 April 2009 (UTC)
I'll consider adding something to that effect. Kirill [talk] [pf] 05:01, 1 May 2009 (UTC)
Hi, I have hidden the IP address of this edit that I presume you made while logged out. Could you confirm that this was your edit, and let me know whether it was intentionally logged out or not? I can unhide the IP address if you would like... John Vandenberg ( chat) 06:05, 8 May 2009 (UTC)
Those are words that console and, at the same time, depress. I think I've learnt as much from you as anything you might have learnt from me. So it's par. You have a fine legal mind, (one on a par with Jayjg's, with the difference that he used it far too often on hopeless cases, so that discrimination just became blind advocacy). Wiki loses with their repudiation of you. My case may be borderline. I tried very hard to check the evidence page in your regard from a hostile perspective, and yet could find almost nothing that might be interpreted as an infraction. That was a remarkable display of cool, meticulous analysis under conditions of extreme duress. I've absolutely no regrets for re-entering that page on November 8th., when you were just outvoted on questions of principle by an ethnic block, even though I knew it would drag me into opposing another hugely time-consuming piece of useless pettifogging, and windmill tilting. Remember, in the young, this is not a personal loss. It means one's conscience is released from a moral obligation to correct disinformation, the correction of which devours hours, in mediocre labour, ('tis one's time's curse, when the deaf lead the pitch-perfect on', to paraphrase King Lear) that can now be spent in more productive reading and more amenable conversation with girlfriends and colleagues elsewhere. For that, Arbcom's ruling may prove salutary for you. Just one point remains: I think you should ask their permission to settle that document on 'Judea and Samaria'. I won't participate, since my views are identical to yours, only you muster arguments on this technical issue far more succinctly than I can, and in that sense, my participation would just be seen as vote-stacking. My very best wishes, I may drop you a contact note within a year, and thanks indeed for that vast 'expenditure of spirit' in what others made a shameless waste of time you generously gave on a good and proper cause, MM. Nishidani ( talk) 09:12, 10 May 2009 (UTC)
This arbitration case has been closed and the final decision is available at the link above. Canadian Monkey ( talk · contribs), G-Dett ( talk · contribs), MeteorMaker ( talk · contribs), Nickhh ( talk · contribs), Nishidani ( talk · contribs), NoCal100 ( talk · contribs), and Pedrito ( talk · contribs) are prohibited from editing any Arab-Israeli conflict-related article/talk page or discussing on the dispute anywhere else on the project. Jayjg ( talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) is also prohibited from editing in the area of conflict, and he is stripped of his status as a functionary and any and all associated privileged access, including the CheckUser and Oversight tools and the checkuser-l, oversight-l, and functionaries-en mailing lists. Jayjg is also thanked for his years of service.
After six months, these editors may individually ask the Arbitration Committee to lift their editing restrictions after demonstrating commitment to the goals of Wikipedia and ability to work constructively with other editors. However, restrictions may be temporarily suspended for the exclusive purpose of participating in the discussion of draft guidelines for this area.
In the meantime, the community is strongly urged to pursue current discussions to come to a definitive consensus on the preferred current and historical names of the region that is the source of conflict in this case. Note that this must be consistent with current Wikipedia guidelines on reliable sources, a neutral point of view, and naming conventions. This decision will be appended onto this case within two months from the close of the case.
For the Arbitration Committee, hmwith τ 17:33, 12 May 2009 (UTC)
The Defender of the Wiki Barnstar | ||
For hours of fruitless effort trying to protect Wikipedia from nationalist bias. Although you have been sanctioned unfairly, your thoughtful arguments and dogged research have given the community a strong background of information to draw on when denouncing future attempts to portray ideology as fact. untwirl( talk) 14:54, 14 May 2009 (UTC) |
MeteorMaker. I never would have guessed that English wasn't your first language.
[95] Your talk page posts sound very fluent to me. I think you can still do Featured Articles even if English isn't your first language. Feel free to ask me for help: I can check grammar and wording etc., per
User:Coppertwig/Notices#Proofreading offer. Alternatively, you can go to
WP:FAC and help with many articles that others have already written, checking and correcting details, similarly to what I sometimes do. The way the Arbitration decision is written, I think that would count.
I was going to reply to some of your comments in the discussions we were in on the arbitration pages, but didn't have time. Now those things probably don't matter any more, except that I'd like to say that I don't consider someone a "culprit" just because they've been involved in a misunderstanding; every misunderstanding has two sides, the person sending a message and the one receiving it, so there's no point blaming anybody. If there's anything you'd still like an answer on, let me know. I'm sorry about the way the case worked out. ☺
Coppertwig (
talk) 23:32, 16 May 2009 (UTC)
I put a question here about what is the proper way for you to apply. The noticeboard page you edited has a notice at the top saying that only clerks and arbitrators are supposed to edit it. ☺ Coppertwig ( talk) 14:54, 24 May 2009 (UTC)
Hi Roger,
Regarding my application to take part in the J&S guidelines discussion per this decision, it appears that the deadline has passed. According to FloNight, discussion of the application has taken place but the outcome was not disclosed [96], apparently through clerical error. Could you look into this? The most recent official status request is here. MeteorMaker ( talk) 12:51, 12 June 2009 (UTC)
MeteorMaker, I'm sorry that you waited for the reply, had to prompt us, and then were given a negative response. I do understand that this disappointed you. I wish that we had done a better job of communicating with you about the status of the situation. :-( FloNight ♥♥♥ 14:23, 13 June 2009 (UTC)
Your Opinion is More Important than You Think Barnstar | ||
Your well-reasoned and well-put arguments on a heated I/P dispute helped things significantly, and to that you deserve our thanks. The Squicks ( talk) 06:33, 19 June 2009 (UTC) |
I have filed a request to amend the West Bank - Judea and Samaria arbitration case. See here. nableezy - 20:48, 29 December 2009 (UTC)
By motion of the Arbitration Committee voted on at requests for amendment,
The editing restrictions placed on Nishidani ( talk · contribs) in the West Bank - Judea and Samaria case are lifted effective at the passage of this motion. Nishidani is reminded that articles in the area of conflict, which is identical to the area of conflict as defined by the Palestine-Israel articles case, remain the subject of discretionary sanctions; should he edit within this topic area, those discretionary sanctions continue to apply.
For the Arbitration Committee, Hersfold ( t/ a/ c) 17:34, 21 July 2011 (UTC)
Hi,
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talk) 16:18, 23 November 2015 (UTC)
In case you're not watching Talk:Todd Goldman, I invite you to discuss the issue of reliable sources over at User:Superluser/Reliable Sources for Biographies of Living People. Thanks! superluser t c 2007 July 10, 05:24 (UTC)
Re. your threat to remove my map of Greater Israel. From WP:NOR: Pictures have enjoyed a broad exception from this policy. If you feel you must go on with this threat, I will meet you at the images for deletion page. Emmanuelm ( talk) 17:26, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
Please stop removing references to Judea and Samaria from articles. It is considered vandalism. Be sure to review WP:NPOV and provide sufficient reasons for your edits in the edit summary, which in your case is decidedly non-descriptive. -- Ynhockey ( Talk) 22:49, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
With all due respect, I live outside of Israel and I refer to these locations as Judea and Samaria. David Betesh ( talk)
I have made a further change, and I think that you would agree with it and that it best represents the truth from the neutral and far point of view. David Betesh ( talk)
great. David Betesh
Please remain WP:CIV in discussions even/especially when in disagreement with others.
The cited notes represent an increasing problem and I request that you take a breather when you feel an itch to get personal. Jaakobou Chalk Talk 10:30, 20 April 2008 (UTC)
Jaakobou: Seeing that you have strong feelings on this matter and others disagree, I'd suggest that you first provide some evidence to support your theory. I'm not sure what type of evidence would work since I find it to be a "Jews and anyone in contact with Israel don't have a say on naming conventions" theory, so I feel you should at least make an effort to persuade with something other than rejection of 'International/World Bank' sources.
MeteorMaker: In case your disagreement is based on factual reasons and not just pure emotion, it would be interesting to hear your objective explanation how the Israel Central Bureau of Statistics, the Bank of Israel Research Dept, the "Coordinator of Government Operations in Judea-Samaria and the Gaza District", one former consultant for the Israeli government, and (then-)PM Yitzhak Shamir are not affiliated with the Israeli government in any way.
Jaakobou: Please work with others rather than reject every source given (above) on account that it's author is somehow connected with Jews.
MeteorMaker: Your sources are sort of self-rejecting, if you indeed set out to prove that the term "Judea" is widely used by anybody else than Israelis - and 9 out of 10 turn out to have been written by Israelis. I advise you to not misrepresent my views and try to cast them in an anti-Semitic light btw, that does not reflect well on your credibility and appears uncivil. Now that you have confirmed that the term is used mostly in Israel, could you elaborate on why you advocate replacing a well-established English toponym with it?
Jaakobou: I feel this discussion has lost it's value; Certainly there is a problem if you feel that you've been accused of anti-Semitism as that was not my intention. I and a few other editors disagree with you regarding the interpretation of sources. To clarify, it is my opinion that anything published under "international" or "world", makes the point that it's an 'international' document, regardless if an Israeli or a pro-Israeli (Jew or not) was part of it's writing process.
MeteorMaker: That is a pretty ludicrous statement. Direct quotes by anybody in an "international" document become the accepted "international" view at the instant they're published? Or are you suggesting that verbatim quotes by, say, Yitzhak Shamir (one of your examples) should be censored when printed in a publication by the World Bank? I accept your apology for accusing me of "rejecting every source on account that it's author is somehow connected with Jews". Don't confuse "Jews" and "Israelis" again. Should you overcome the feeling that "this discussion has lost its value", you are welcome back to try to support your claim that "Judea" is a valid term outside Israel. Until then, I must conclude that you have failed.
I think you may have made some error saying you reverted an edit of mine from 4 May.
[1] I couldn't recall making the edit you suggested I've made, and indeed, I can't find making any edits on that date:
Jezreel Valley (
|
talk |
history |
protect |
delete |
links |
watch |
logs |
views).
With respect,
Jaakobou
Chalk Talk 20:24, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
Hi MeteorMaker.
Regarding you pushing my article to the talk page. Well it was my first attempt at a major updating of a Wikipedia article. I observed that the original article was so out of date that it needed major reforms. I tried to update this page with information that was more up to date. I notice you have kept some of my points but have restored most of the passages I tried to update. I observe that you say I am pushing "a minority POV re the location of Thapsacus" and that you have merged my points "minus the unsourced claims". Well let's compare these two statements alongside a passage your restored. Take the first paragraph under Location, bit by bit.
Where does this material come from? It's not referenced. Who said it was 100 miles north-east of Tadmor? Name one ancient source that can verify this statement. Who said it is the modern town of Deir? (I suppose they mean modern Dayr az Zawr). Anyone with geographic sense would immediately see the impossibility of it being anywhere near ancient Thapsacus. Name one modern historian who would even support such a claim. And who "now assumed" it to be at Suriyah? Where is the reference?
What does some town near Shechem have to do with a town on the Euphrates? Why is this article even quoting a 1897 source which is saying something totally unrelated to the Euphrates' Thapsacus? And who says it is unlikely? Is not this the author of the article giving his own unverified comment.
At last a reference to a location, even if only a tertiary source. And guess what, they get it right. But does this satisfy the author of the article? No, his bias will not allow him to accept this. So he adds his own un-referenced opinion, totally going against the plain reading of Pliny 5.21 (a reference you removed) who says of Carchemish, under its later name of Europus, "Europus formerly Thapsacus".
Well a second reference and surprise it gets it almost correct (when it says "near Carchemish"). But why is this source being quoted at all? It has nothing to do with the location of Thapsacus. It only mentions it, in passing, as a place through which Alexander marched on his way to Gaugamela.
So, on your criticism.
Am I "pushing a minority POV re the location of Thapsacus"? Maybe I am when compared to the 100+ year old sources the article likes to quote, but not amongst modern scholars who have the benefit of a 100 years of new archaeological discoveries. Again look at the references in the above paragraph that you restored - even these say or hint at Carchemish. I am not the one who is pushing a minority view. It is clearly the author of the article who is pushing his POV.
Do I make "unsourced claims"? Are you are trying to compare me with the numerous unsourced claims in your restored paragraph? Have another look at the mass of references I gave. All the ancient sources were quoted and citied. Most of the modern citations were from academic journals in the field of ancient history.
Joe Baker ( talk) 11:55, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
You appear to have followed User:Amoruso to four different articles solely for the purpose of reverting him. This kind of behavior is a violation of WP:STALK; please desist. Jayjg (talk) 01:01, 2 July 2008 (UTC)
Meteormaker, you were caught in a lie by user:Jayjg - which is it, did you watch the same page or did you stalk? I need this information if I report you. You will banned for your personal attacks and stalking in the future. You are in violation of WP:STALK. If "following another user around" is accompanied by tendentiousness, personal attacks, or other disruptive behavior, it may become a very serious matter. Amoruso ( talk) 23:35, 2 July 2008 (UTC)
Amuroso does seem to be a bit of a stalker himself. Further evidence, from his contribs log:
- 03:33, 3 July 2008 (hist) (diff) Ariel (city) (→External links: Cities in the West Bank) (top)
- 03:30, 3 July 2008 (hist) (diff) Tel Rumeida (already hebron.) (top)
- 03:29, 3 July 2008 (hist) (diff) Beitar Illit (→References: Cities in the West Bank) (top)
- 03:28, 3 July 2008 (hist) (diff) Joseph's Tomb (→External links: Nablus, Geography of the West Bank]....) (top)
- 03:27, 3 July 2008 (hist) (diff) Judea and Samaria (Geography of the West Bank) (top)
- 03:26, 3 July 2008 (hist) (diff) Kiryat Arba (→References: Hebron more specific) (top)
- 03:26, 3 July 2008 (hist) (diff) Ma'ale Adumim (→External links: Cities in the West Bank) (top)
- 03:25, 3 July 2008 (hist) (diff) Mevo'ot Yericho (→External links: already in jericho - more specific)
- 03:24, 3 July 2008 (hist) (diff) Rachel's Tomb (already in a sub-cat) (top)
- 23:37, 2 July 2008 (hist) (diff) User talk:MeteorMaker (→WP:STALK)
All these changes are reverts of changes I've made:
- 21:46, 2 July 2008 (hist) (diff) Tel Rumeida (Cat added.)
- 21:45, 2 July 2008 (hist) (diff) Rachel's Tomb (Cat added.)
- 21:42, 2 July 2008 (hist) (diff) Mevo'ot Yericho (Cat added.)
- 21:40, 2 July 2008 (hist) (diff) Ma'ale Adumim (Cat added.)
- 21:40, 2 July 2008 (hist) (diff) m Kiryat Arba (Cat added.)
- 21:20, 2 July 2008 (hist) (diff) Judea and Samaria (Cat added.)
- 21:20, 2 July 2008 (hist) (diff) m Joseph's Tomb (Cat added.)
- 21:13, 2 July 2008 (hist) (diff) Beitar Illit (Cat added.)
- 21:08, 2 July 2008 (hist) (diff) Ariel (city) (cat added.)
To his civility issues, his history of making baseless accusations, and his contempt for Wiki rules that rendered him a two-month ban, we can apparently add at least a slight amount of hypocrisy. MeteorMaker ( talk) 11:23, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
"This user, who for some reason doesn't have a user page, has been stalking me persistently. He reverts me on all pages, trying to provoke RV wars. and that's the only thing he does in wikipedia apparently. See his "contributions" - all stalking me - I've asked him to stop but he seemed to ignore it." [11].
Dear MeteorMaker,
Please take care of Promised Land as well!
IMHO this article should be main article for Land of Israel.
Thanks -- Submitter to Truth ( talk) 19:07, 9 July 2008 (UTC)
Your further comments here would be appreciated. Thanks, TheMightyQuill ( talk) 15:30, 17 July 2008 (UTC)
Hello. Concerning inclusion in Category:Jewish terrorism please see Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Israel Palestine Collaboration#Category:Palestinian terrorists and Category:Israeli terrorists. -- Timeshifter ( talk) 15:05, 2 November 2008 (UTC)
Because we had an edit conflict, and I outdented too. CasualObserver'48 ( talk) 14:15, 7 November 2008 (UTC)
Hello, MeteorMaker.
I've examined the history of the now protected Samaria, and the (vast) discussion on the talk page regarding your controversial edits to the article. I'm afraid I have to agree with the consensus on the page that you are being disruptive by your repeated attempts to force your terminology onto the article.
I have no opinion on the correctness of your position, but the fact remains that it is overwhelmingly rejected by the other editors and that, since Wikipedia relies on consensus to reach neutrality, editors who regularly go against consensus are disrupting the process. You may wish to avail yourself of the various avenues of dispute resolution, including possible mediation, in order to bring your proposed edits to a wider audience for reconsideration.
Please consider this a warning that under the ArbCom decision Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Palestine-Israel articles, any uninvolved administrator may, on his or her own discretion, impose sanctions on any editor working in the area of conflict if, despite being warned, that editor repeatedly or seriously fails to adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia, any expected standards of behavior, or any normal editorial process. The sanctions imposed may include blocks of up to one year in length; bans from editing any page or set of pages within the area of conflict; bans on any editing related to the topic or its closely related topics; restrictions on reverts or other specified behaviors; or any other measures which the imposing administrator believes are reasonably necessary to ensure the smooth functioning of the project.
In particular, further attempts edit that article, or any other article in the area of conflict, against consensus will lead to sanctions being imposed on you. — Coren (talk) 05:50, 15 November 2008 (UTC)
I get the uncomfortable feeling that MeteorMaker has both the logic of his claim (Samaria barely used outside Israel) and WP:Policy on his side (use English names, NPOV etc). Clearly, I've not examined more than a portion of the TalkPage discussions, but I can see Jayjg re-introducing material/clips that are claimed (rather persuasively) to have been refuted. Under these circumstances, uninvolved admins should be examining, explaining and defending policy - or judging the quality of the discources (ie identifying disruptive conduct), not adjudicating on content disputes which (we're constantly told) admins cannot do.
My suggestion to MeteorMaker is to build a table of the examples offered, with justifications and refutations in separate columns. Either Ian Lustuck is an Israeli or he's not, either he prefers the use of Samaria or use of the West Bank, etc. Without a very careful examination of the issues I can't be sure what's going on - I and others would have a much clearer picture if the evidence was laid out carefully.
User of term | Sources where/when used | Samaria Yes/No | Samaria is in regular main-stream English use | Samaria is in partisan or non-English use |
---|---|---|---|---|
Anthony H. Cordesman | Arab-Israeli Military Forces in an Era of Asymmetric Wars. Center for Strategic and International Studies (Washington, D.C.) Greenwood Publishing Group, 2006 p.90 | No | From April to December 2002, there were 17 suicide attacks directed from the northern part of the West Bank, referred to by some as Samaria.’ | |
Ian Lustick | For the Land and the Lord, 1988 p.205 n.4 | No | For political purposes, and despite the geographical imprecision involved, the annexationalist camp in Israel prefers to refer to the area between the green line and the Jordan River not as the West Bank, but as Judea and Samaria.’ Ian S.Lustick, For the Land and the Lord, 1988 p.205 n.4 | |
Foo3 | www.this source | Yes | Applicable because this is regular English-language use. |
PR talk 11:58, 17 November 2008 (UTC)
Done [20]. Thanks for the suggestion, PR. MeteorMaker ( talk) 22:25, 7 December 2008 (UTC)
The page talks about Palestinian state, not Palestinian Country/area/region. There are problems with bot on others wiki. Please correct the definition as i did.-- Lord Hidelan ( talk) 20:02, 25 November 2008 (UTC)
You currently appear to be engaged in an edit war according to the reverts you have made on Israeli settlement. Note that the three-revert rule prohibits making more than three reversions on a single page within a 24 hour period. Additionally, users who perform a large number of reversions in content disputes may be blocked for edit warring, even if they do not technically violate the three-revert rule. If you continue, you may be blocked from editing. Please do not repeatedly revert edits, but use the talk page to work towards wording and content that gains a consensus among editors. If necessary, pursue dispute resolution. NoCal100 ( talk) 22:39, 27 November 2008 (UTC)
I don't know what to do with these people (or rather what to do about what they get up to). They push obscure and/or anachronistic, politicised terminology into articles as if it were mainstream or equivalent to the current mainstream, and then start waving WP rules at you triumphantly as soon as they manage to google a couple of sources which can be interpreted as backing up their worldview, even when 100s more contradict it. Part of me wants to just walk away and save my time and energy over what is after all only an odd word here and there, but then I ask myself - hang on, why should people get away with inserting this minority viewpoint propaganda into what is - for better or worse - perhaps currently one of the world's main information and reference resources? Just a message of support for an occasional fellow-struggler ... -- Nickhh ( talk) 23:11, 30 November 2008 (UTC)
You currently appear to be engaged in an edit war according to the reverts you have made on Israeli settlement. Note that the three-revert rule prohibits making more than three reversions on a single page within a 24 hour period. Additionally, users who perform a large number of reversions in content disputes may be blocked for edit warring, even if they do not technically violate the three-revert rule. If you continue, you may be blocked from editing. Please do not repeatedly revert edits, but use the talk page to work towards wording and content that gains a consensus among editors. If necessary, pursue dispute resolution. - Canadian Monkey ( talk) 17:27, 1 December 2008 (UTC)
You're free to insert whatever straw man arguments you want in your "RFC", but don't remove my own comments from the RFC again. Thanks. Jayjg (talk) 03:57, 11 December 2008 (UTC)
MeteorMaker, undoing the actions of another editor in a complex way, by slightly changing your wording each time even though you are aware that this does not address the fundamental issue, also counts as a 3RR violation. I strongly suggest you revert yourself, before you are blocked for this. Jayjg (talk) 00:56, 14 December 2008 (UTC)
Hello. Today you have made substantially the same edit to West Bank four times, restoring a version of the lede from December the ninth. Whilst the edits are not verbatim identical there is little semantic difference. For these edits another editor has reported you to the edit warring noticeboard. You have been previously advised that edit-warring is forbidden.
Additionally, you made this edit with the clear intent to disrupt the article to make a point.
Thus, for violating the three-revert-rule and deliberate disruption, I have blocked you for 24 hours.
If you believe this block is unjustified, you may contest the block by adding the text {{unblock|your reason here}} below.
CIreland ( talk) 02:50, 14 December 2008 (UTC)
Sorry about the accidental tag. I was researching vandalism from an IP, and when I had the tag ready to put on their page, I accidentally clicked the wrong tab in my browser and put it on your page instead of theirs. The correct location was here. [28] Sorry for any confusion, -- El on ka 19:52, 16 December 2008 (UTC)
I'm fine with both being links, or both being lists, but don't remove my list of sources and replace it with a link, unless you do the same with your endlessly repeated list of sources too. Jayjg (talk) 22:57, 24 December 2008 (UTC)
Hi, as I've been reviewing your contribs, MeteorMaker ( talk · contribs), I've been a bit concerned by how you've been rather focused on this "Samaria" issue, and have done little else for weeks. It hasn't always been like this, so could I perhaps give you a gentle nudge to work on other things as well? We definitely have a lot that needs doing on the project. :) Even just clicking on Random article a few times, I usually find something that I want to fix (or at least tag as needing cleanup) within a few clicks. Perhaps also create a userpage? Having a bit of information about your interests would be helpful, would help increase the trust level with other editors, and would also keep your name from showing up as a redlink! -- El on ka 21:35, 25 December 2008 (UTC)
With your mastery of the subject and the additional evidence from a few other hands as well, for both sides of the argument, it should be worth keeping in mind that these two long threads could well constitute an extremely well-documented NPOV wiki article on I/P terminology, or more specifically on history of 'West Bank/Samaria-Judea' usage, independently of how the decision goes. Something along those lines, to avoid wasting much closely mustered evidence in archived nooks. Best regards for the New Year Nishidani ( talk) 13:34, 31 December 2008 (UTC)
Wikistalking is a big no-no. Consider this a polite warning. Repetition will result in more severe consequences. NoCal100 ( talk) 17:05, 1 January 2009 (UTC)
So, when you "happen" to revert Jayjg on a page you never edited before, it is because you are 'active in a dispute involving the ADL [34] ", but when I revert you on the same article, being involved in the exact same dispute dispute involving the ADL [35], I am hounding you? Don't you ever get tired of playing these silly games? NoCal100 ( talk) 22:36, 16 February 2009 (UTC)
MM, this edit summary was uncivil. [44] When you use inflammatory edit summaries, it tends to just make people defensive, and less likely to want to work with you towards an amicable compromise. So in the future, please try to keep comments and edit summaries in a more neutral tone? This will enable you to be much more effective. Thanks. -- El on ka 19:20, 15 January 2009 (UTC)
MeteorMaker, this edit was a bit much, where you removed information that had a variety of reliable sources. [45] Please don't do this kind of thing again. If you disagree with information that's on the page, but the sources are solid, you may wish to modify the information from those sources, but please don't remove the citations themselves. Thanks, -- El on ka 21:36, 17 January 2009 (UTC)
MeteorMaker, you have been cautioned before about removing citations to reliable sources. Since you have started up again, I am going to make this formal: based on the recent pattern of reverts, and working your way through several Israel-Palestine articles and making Samaria-related reverts, I am therefore instituting a formal ban: You are banned from
This ban is in place for 90 days.
If you feel that Samaria-related information in an article needs to be changed, or that a citation needs to be removed, then please bring it up at the talkpage, and, if there is consensus, let other editors make the actual edit. You are not banned from editing the articles, and you are still welcome to change information to try and find a compromise wording, as long as you are not engaging in reverts. Please let me know if you have any questions, -- El on ka 17:04, 14 February 2009 (UTC)
MeteorMaker, thanks for your messages, let me try to explain the wiki-philosophy here. My apologies for the length of this post, but I'm going to try and be as thorough as possible, for both you and the other editors who are watching the discussion:
First, let me be clear that I have no opinion on whether or not Samaria or Judea or biblical or any of these terms do or don't appear in any of the articles. Whether we end up with the terms in the articles or out of the articles, I really have no preference. What my goal is, as an administrator, is to enforce policies, and to reduce disruption to the project. In most cases around the encyclopedia, this is fairly straightforward. For example, we'll have one longterm editor inserting information from reliable sources, and we'll have another editor deleting entire paragraphs and replacing them with, "This is wrong." So we revert the latter editor and instruct them about policies and dispute resolution, and if they continue disrupting without backing up their arguments, we block them, and life in the rest of the project goes on. :)
In some areas though, especially Israel/Palestine, the disputes are much more complex, so administrators have to be a bit more creative. For example, this "Samaria" issue, which has been going on for a long time now. From my ("I don't care") point of view, there's one group of editors who say "Include" and another group of editors who say "Don't include," and this has been going on for awhile. I know that there are claims of Pro-Israel Anti-Israel Pro-Palestine Anti-Palestine yadayada, but again, administrators aren't going to care too much about that. What we do care about, is policies, especially WP:V and WP:UNDUE and WP:DR.
To give a more specific example: When editor A puts something into an article with reliable sources, and editor B removes the information and/or the sources, and absent any other input from other editors, the administrators are (usually) going to support editor A, and editor B is going to be encouraged to follow other steps in dispute resolution. There are exceptions to this, such as when dealing with biographies of living people. With BLPs, the burden of proof swaps around, and it's the responsibility of the editor wanting to include the information (especially if it's negative), to prove that it's well-sourced and appropriate in someone's bio, before it can be allowed to stick.
Getting away from biographies though and back to geography: we have editor A with sources, and editor B who says that the information (and sources) are giving undue weight to a particular concept. What editor B should now do is follow WP:DR: They can try rewriting the article to find a compromise, where editor A's information is included, but editor B can add their own (sourced) information as a counterpoint, or rework the wording of editor A's addition. Or, editor B can start a thread at the article's talkpage, and either find a compromise there with editor A, or start inviting other editors in, per an RfC or notices at a WikiProject or noticeboard. If the information which was added by editor A is a genuine problem, or a clear violation of WP:UNDUE, other editors will see it for what it is, the consensus will be clear, and the information and/or sources can come out of the article. If the consensus is not clear, try inviting more editors, or try mediation.
If things remain deadlocked, the tiebreaker may still be made by the sources. Not by quantity of sources, but by the existence of the sources, and the opinions of editors on how to interpret those sources. If there are 10 reliable sources saying "blue", and 30 reliable sources saying "red", and one group of editors says, "The article should say 'blue'", and another group of editors says, "You guys are insane, the article should obviously say 'red'", then the administrators are going to look at the situation, and if there's no clear consensus, the decision is probably going to be, "The article should say both blue and red, in proper proportion to how the topic is presented in reliable sources". So applying this to Samaria, it means (as I'm interpreting the discussions thus far), that the term can be used in the articles, as long as it is properly attributed and placed in the proper proportion. At Israeli settlement, this seemed to boil down to a compromise of, "Samaria can be mentioned in the article, but shouldn't be in the lead."
As for why you were banned and others weren't, please don't take this as an indication that no one else will ever be banned. Sometimes multiple bans are issued each day, sometimes one ban at a time, sometimes they're staggered out over a week, it really depends. I have to be careful what I say because I don't want to inflame the situation, but it's reasonable to assume that I (and other administrators) are observing the behavior of several editors in this dispute, and may institute other bans. To see who's at risk, look at WP:ARBPIA, check the names in the "notified" list, and also review the history of the talkpages of other editors in this dispute. If I or another administrator has warned/nudged/cautioned them, it means that editor's behavior is being watched.
Ultimately the Samaria dispute seems to come down to this: One group of editors wants the Samaria term in the article. Another group doesn't. There are sources both ways. There is no clear consensus among the editors as to how things should be handled. RfCs have not brought clarity to the issue. The community of wider editors doesn't care. The public doesn't seem to care too much either (otherwise we'd get a stream of outraged anonymous messages on the talkpage). So if there's no consensus, and no one else seems to care, let it go. It's not worth this much angst, over how to word one sentence on a much longer article. You may also wish to review Wikipedia:Lamest edit wars, for examples of other places around the project where editors spent way too much time quibbling over very minor points. We've got a huge encyclopedia here, with thousands of new articles flowing in every day. There's lots of work that needs to be done. So on this "Samaria" question, we talk it over, we flip a coin, if nothing's clear, we put a pin in it and move on to other debates. Editors that don't seem able to let things go, especially when they're not working on anything else on the project, are probably going to be asked to leave.
Another measuring stick that administrators use, is looking at the editing history of each editor. If there's one editor who has created multiple articles, who is constantly arguing with another editor who's never created a single article, the "writing" editor will often receive better backup from the administrators, to allow them to get back to building the encyclopedia, while the "arguing" editor may simply be removed from the equation. It doesn't mean that their arguments were necessarily bad. But if their arguments were presented, they've made their case, the options have been considered, and the decision went against their arguments (or there's no consensus), the community expectation is that the arguing editor should let things go and move on to other projects. Now don't get me wrong, consensus can change, so it may be worth re-opening the discussion several months down the line. But sometimes we just have to say, "This is the way the articles are going to be written for awhile," and shoo people away from the discussion to encourage them to work on other things.
Does that help explain the wiki-subtleties at all? For your own purposes, if you'd like to have a stronger voice in discussions: Stop worrying about the Samaria question for awhile. Work on other articles, or even better, expand or create other articles. Having a userpage isn't just for personal information about you, but for information about what you've worked on. Look at other editors' userpages, and you'll see that we talk about the articles and topic areas where we work, and we usually proudly banner the articles that we've helped to promote to a state of higher quality. To do this yourself, pick an article that's in so-so shape, and improve it to good article or featured article status. Or if your talents are more in "article review" than "article creation", help out at WP:GAN, and you'll see there's a backlog of articles where reviews have been requested. You could be a decisionmaker on whether or not nominated articles should be promoted. This kind of work would be extremely helpful to the encyclopedia, and would have the added bonus of giving you recognizable accomplishments that you could place on your userpage. Which would give you a much stronger voice in any article discussions where you choose to participate. -- El on ka 17:46, 15 February 2009 (UTC)
You might be interested in expressing your views regarding the lead of the IAK article on the mediation page: Wikipedia:Mediation Cabal/Cases/2009-01/If Americans Knew StN ( talk) 18:04, 30 January 2009 (UTC)
FYI : [48] Ceedjee ( talk) 11:42, 7 February 2009 (UTC)
Hi MeteorMaker,
Just to let you know, I've posted at WP:AE regarding User:NoCal100 and Samaria.
Cheers, pedrito - talk - 18.02.2009 15:28
I have reported you recent violation of the ban placed on you by Elonka at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Arbitration enforcement. Canadian Monkey ( talk) 01:06, 24 February 2009 (UTC)
Just a word of advice. Although you didn't break the letter of Elonka's ban, the spirit of her ban was clearly that you should not edit-war over the Samaria naming issue. I strongly advise you to work with other editors to find a mutually acceptable global solution - don't be tempted to try to impose unilateral solutions. -- ChrisO ( talk) 07:34, 25 February 2009 (UTC)
I have started a Request for Arbitration regarding the use of northern/southern West Bank vs. Judea and Samaria. Since you have been involved in this debate, I have included you in the request.
Cheers, pedrito - talk - 25.02.2009 09:31
About time. Thank you. MeteorMaker ( talk) 12:08, 25 February 2009 (UTC)
An Arbitration case involving you has been opened, and is located here. Please add any evidence you may wish the Arbitrators to consider to the evidence sub-page, Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/West Bank - Judea and Samaria/Evidence. Please submit your evidence within one week, if possible. You may also contribute to the case on the workshop sub-page, Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/West Bank - Judea and Samaria/Workshop.
On behalf of the Arbitration Committee, Tznkai ( talk) 04:51, 1 March 2009 (UTC)
Just a note MM. You've had a long haul, mostly alone, and copped flack from go to woe on the right path (cf.Robert Frost's The Road Not Taken, refers to most of us, your fellow editors. We thought it too sheer to climb, given the hazards). But now you are on the plateau, in company, before the stern olympian gaze of extremely experienced administrators. They don't need advice, or 'musts'. I suggest as a courtesy to them that you strike that 'must be dealt with'. Just state the facts. As you note 'mudslinging' is ugly, and to avoid being dragged into the sludge, a few dry corrective notes are sufficient. Regards Nishidani ( talk) 14:22, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
@ Jaakobou: Jaakobou Chalk Talk 14:59, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
- "Within articles, places should generally be referred to by the same name as is used in their article title, or a historic name when discussing a past period. Use of one name for a town in 2000 does not determine what name we should give the same town in 1900 or in 1400, nor the other way around. Many towns, however, should keep the same name; it is a question of fact, of actual English usage, in all cases."
MeteorMaker, after reviewing parts of the discussion page and the evidence presented (again), I am convinced that there is indeed such a trend, both within the scope of the current case, and outside this scope (the evidence was, as I said before, provided by Jayjg and others). There is therefore no reason for me to strike out any of my comments, and I would appreciate if you stopped trying to pressure me into doing so. Right now I am following the case with interest and awaiting ArbCom's decision, but mostly improving other articles not related to the dispute. In fact, I suggest that you do the same (see Khoikhoi's section under Evidence). -- Ynhockey ( Talk) 20:29, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
'It's the bigger picture that is important, and the bigger picture is simply that certain editors dismiss sources simply because they are Israeli, Jewish or Zionist (and if I needed further proof that this is true, Nishidani above openly admits to doing so).
I don't think I've made any "false claims" about your behavior, and thus will not be amending my statement. Your were restricted from removing citations to reliable sources and from reverting over the Samaria question. You violated both restrictions, and then wikilawyered to claim that (a) removing well sourced information while keeping the citations in the article, which now refer to nothing at all, is not a violation since you kept the "citation" itself; and (b) that reverting "Samaria" is not a revert if no other version w/o Samaria exists. On the latter, even one of your staunchest supporters found it necessary to tell you that at a minimum, you were violating the spirit, if not the letter, of the restriction - which is the very definition of wikilawyering. If Elonka comes along and says she does not think these were violations, I will reconsider, but until then, the evidence speaks for itself. Canadian Monkey ( talk) 16:58, 16 March 2009 (UTC)
In reply to your question to Jayjg at User talk:Jayjg, I'll give you my own opinion. The first quote ("regions once known as Judea and Samaria" [63]) comes closest, in my opinion, to supporting the statement that "Samaria is not a modern toponym", but does not explicitly support it; one interpretation of it can be taken as implying the idea, but another interpretation is that it's saying that the ancient kingdoms were known by those names, and may be implying that those kingdoms no longer exist as such, but is not (under this possible interpretation) implying that no one uses those names to indicate the land areas. The second quote says "the lands of Judea and Samaria, known today as the West Bank". [64] It is explicitly using the names "Judea" and "Samaria" to identify certain land areas, thus implicitly contradicting the hypothesis by using the terms itself. It states that they are known today as the West Bank, but does not state that they are not also known today as Judea and Samaria, so it is not explicitly supporting the hypothesis. Re the third quote ("historic term [that] is used by the Israeli government, Zionists and Israelis, to refer to the modern region, but it is no longer used by others" [65]): please note that "the Israeli government, Zionists and Israelis" are people. Therefore this quote is stating that people use the term "Samaria" to refer to a certain region. It therefore contradicts the hypothesis. The fourth quote ("In the second century of the Common Era, following the Bar Kokhba revolt, the names "Judaea" and "Samaria" were abolished by the Romans" [66]) seems pretty much irrelevant: I don't think Roman law about what placenames to use is generally followed by English speakers today, and information about what placenames were used back then is probably somewhat out of date by now. ☺ Coppertwig ( talk) 19:53, 28 March 2009 (UTC)
Hi. You said on the workshop page, "In this case, we are arguing about whether J&S are used as terms for the modern West Bank outside Israel or not." Would you clarify that, please; what exactly do you mean by "used ... outside Israel"? What about being used by an Israeli who is outside Israel at the time, or being used by a non-Israeli who is in Israel? What about something written by an Israeli in Israel but published outside Israel, and what about something written by a non-Israeli outside Israel but published within Israel? Thanks in advance. ☺ Coppertwig ( talk) 00:08, 3 April 2009 (UTC)
Hi, MeteorMaker. Re my first post in this thread: that post is in reply to a question you asked Jayjg. I have the impression you didn't understand it, because later in this thread you said "You came here on March 28, started a section you called "Toponym", and stated that a quote you had found "contradicted the hypothesis" [74], without further explanation what that "hypothesis" might be." [75] Because you said "a quote you had found", I have the impression that you didn't understand that the quotes I was talking about in my post at the beginning of this thread are the quotes that you mentioned in your question to Jayjg. The "hypothesis" is something you were asking about in your question: it is "Samaria is not a modern toponym". In reply to your further question (where you asked "Armed with the new knowledge that nobody has ever denied the fact that "Samaria" is used in Israel and by Zionists, would you evaluate the quote from Zionism and Israel - Encyclopedic Dictionary differently?" my answer is no, I would not interpret it differently; I would interpret it just as I did, as contradicting the hypothesis, because if the source is stating that Israelis are using the term, then the source is contradicting the hypothesis that it is not a modern toponym. My interpretation would not change, because I was interpreting what that particular quote said, not what might be said or assumed elsewhere. To me, a statement that something is not a modern toponym is roughly equivalent to a statement that nobody uses it any more. If Israelis are using it, then it's not true that nobody is using it, so it's not true that it's not a modern toponym, in my opinion. ☺ Coppertwig ( talk) 20:32, 15 April 2009 (UTC)
"Please note that "the Israeli government, Zionists and Israelis" are people. Therefore this quote is stating that people use the term "Samaria" to refer to a certain region. It therefore contradicts the hypothesis [that Samaria is not a modern toponym]".
So… I had an idea (or rather, cribbed an idea from Nishidani). What if, instead of topic-banning some of the most useful, articulate, and involved editors in the IP area (on both sides) for a year, you all got together and worked on Judea, Samaria, and Judea and Samaria with the goal of promoting them into GA status in two months’ time? That way (and given the relatively public nature of the arb case), there would hopefully be wide-ranging and neutral community input – sort of an RfC on steroids. If you all did not succeed, it would be back to the arb case (which would be placed on hiatus pending the outcome). The arbs (some of them anyway) seem to be saying you all can’t work together. I don’t think that’s true, and I also think that to the extent it is true, the possibility of avoiding more unpleasantness in this arb case might lead to extra flexibility and reasonableness. In the interest of full disclosure: I don’t particularly care at all how the ultimate content issue falls out -- Judea, Samaria, West Bank, Elbonia, whatever: I’d just like to avoid a mass-banning that would have a seriously deleterious effect on IP articles. What say? (If you wish to reply, you may do so here) IronDuke 02:22, 31 March 2009 (UTC)
In reply to your comment on Jayjg's talk page: It seems to me that the following misunderstandings occurred in the discussions leading up to the arbcom case. This is according to my impressions of what happened, and I'm open to input from the participants about anything I might not have right about their own parts in this.
When you used the phrase "outside Israel" ("What you need is a quote that actually states that "Samaria" is widely used outside Israel." [78]), Jayjg apparently misunderstood this to mean physically located in a different country, which apparently you didn't mean. [79] This led (as I see it) to a series of comments and accusations back and forth, with a continuation of the same misunderstanding at every step, leading ultimately to your accusing Jayjg of lying and to your accusing Jayjg of accusing you of "distasteful ethnic discrimination". ("By any definition of the word, Jayjg lied when he repeatedly accused me of "distasteful ethnic discrimination".") [80] (I hope you don't mind, MeteorMaker, but since I'm repeating this here, I feel a need to repeat, for the benefit of anyone who might read this, that your use of quotation marks there is not intended to indicate an exact sequence of words. [81])
When you used the phrase "same area". ("..., please indicate where in the sentence it is also stated that Samaria and the West Bank are different-epoch names for the same area." [82]), Jayjg apparently misunderstood this to mean the same piece of land, which apparently you didn't mean (last paragraph of this diff: [83]) This led (as I see it) to a series of comments back and forth, leading ultimately to G-Dett accusing Jayjg of declaring victory on the basis of a "red herring" [84]
Jayjg said some things that G-Dett interpreted [85] as a demand for "exactly that verbal formulation". As I say in my evidence, Jayjg later confirmed that he had not been insisting that the source had to use the exact same words. [86] G-Dett later refactored, striking out "exactly" [87] and later explained: apparently G-Dett's statement in evidence is not intended to assert that Jayjg was demanding a source containing a specific string of words. [88]
There may also have been other misunderstandings.
To help clear up some of the above misunderstandings, I would appreciate it if you would answer these questions:
Here, where you say "outside Israel", what do you mean by that phrase? Please either complete a sentence such as "By 'outside Israel', I mean ... " or else reformulate your statement so that it no longer uses that phrase.
Here, where you say "same area", what do you mean by that phrase?
I hope you don't mind these answers and these questions. I'm trying to help establish clear communication in order to remove sources of irritation and allow the discussion to proceed productively. ☺ Coppertwig ( talk) 15:31, 16 April 2009 (UTC)
Now that you know that the "hypothesis" was "Samaria is not considered a modern toponym except in Israel", would you still say that the quote from Zionism and Israel - Encyclopedic Dictionary contradicts it?
supports the statement"Samaria is a historic term that is used by the Israeli government, Zionists and Israelis to refer to the modern West Bank region, but it is no longer used by others" [93]
"Samaria is a historic term that is used by the Israeli government, Zionists and Israelis to refer to the modern West Bank region, but it is no longer used by others."
Kirill has asked some questions here. You are invited to respond. -- Tznkai ( talk) 22:23, 16 April 2009 (UTC)
Heyo MeteorMaker,
I just started an
RfC request for our recent terminology dispute.
Warm regards,
Jaakobou
Chalk Talk 15:49, 18 April 2009 (UTC)
I apologize. You're right: that line of evidence wasn't well-supported. I may have been getting two different issues confused in my mind. I've replaced it with a different line which I think is better supported, with a different diff.
I said I was ready to help you, too, when the opportunity arose. Today I seem to have found such an opportunity, so I've done this edit, which I hope helps you.
I'm sorry if I haven't expressed it in the most diplomatic way, but my request that you assume good faith is sincere. I know it can be hard, but please think it over. Things that seem obvious to you don't seem obvious to me. Remember that the same situation will look very different to different people with different POVs. AGF really is a reasonable choice in this situation. ☺ Coppertwig ( talk) 18:25, 18 April 2009 (UTC)
However this madness plays out, just a note on the West Bank consensus stuff. The central problem as I see it, if it is accepted that using Israeli geographical terms to define the Palestinian West Bank is inappropriate, remains that of resolving how to reconcile the fact that the Governorates of the Palestinian National Authority cover the whole territory subsumed by Israel as the 'Judea & Samaria' district. Israeli districts are in Palestinian governorates technically, and vice versa, Effectively 70% of the land is under Israeli military and civil authority, so allowing 'each his own' means 70% being described in Israeli-specific terms. Just a thought.
Given the way the immense lumbering juggernaut of bureaucracy is crunching underfoot any nuanced knowledge that has appeared, as politics, partisanship and misguided or monocular obsession with abstract rules (wiki formalism will ever trump substance), and not closely informed area understanding, takes hold, as was forseeable from the outset, the result will probably usurp a clear vision of what is required to make the I/P area workable. It is not understood that defenders of the status quo are quite happy with leaving things in a mess: in the lack of improvement of atmosphere there, the usual non-completion of articles, seesawing up and down with jumbled POVs, fits the bill for many. Completion of articles would mean clarity for the reader, and I don't think most editors in there desire this end. There is a quite clear cynical awareness that individuals (except you know who) do not really count for the functioning of wikipedia, and lose one or two in a sweep up, and you will have others drifting in to create the impression of ongoing work. This is understandable, since the achievers work on their own, in unconflicted areas, and have little or no experience of what it is like working in area subject to political vetoes on virtually everything.
I suppose, in giving up on this place, I should conclude by thanking you for your immense, acute and pertinacious work in trying to establish some conceptual order among the shambles. It hasn't been recognized. And it looks as if it will be blocked. Best regards, MM. Sorry I couldn't be more helpful. Nishidani ( talk) 08:43, 28 April 2009 (UTC)
There is some information there that you might find useful. In any event comments are welcome. harlan ( talk) 12:59, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
You currently appear to be engaged in an edit war according to the reverts you have made on Israeli targeted killings. Note that the three-revert rule prohibits making more than three reversions on a single page within a 24 hour period. Additionally, users who perform a large number of reversions in content disputes may be blocked for edit warring, even if they do not technically violate the three-revert rule. If you continue, you may be blocked from editing. Please do not repeatedly revert edits, but use the talk page to work towards wording and content that gains a consensus among editors. If necessary, pursue dispute resolution.
Considering that there are now some specific FoF agianst you with regards to edit warring in the ArbCom case, this is particularly unwise. Canadian Monkey ( talk) 23:34, 30 April 2009 (UTC)
I'll consider adding something to that effect. Kirill [talk] [pf] 05:01, 1 May 2009 (UTC)
Hi, I have hidden the IP address of this edit that I presume you made while logged out. Could you confirm that this was your edit, and let me know whether it was intentionally logged out or not? I can unhide the IP address if you would like... John Vandenberg ( chat) 06:05, 8 May 2009 (UTC)
Those are words that console and, at the same time, depress. I think I've learnt as much from you as anything you might have learnt from me. So it's par. You have a fine legal mind, (one on a par with Jayjg's, with the difference that he used it far too often on hopeless cases, so that discrimination just became blind advocacy). Wiki loses with their repudiation of you. My case may be borderline. I tried very hard to check the evidence page in your regard from a hostile perspective, and yet could find almost nothing that might be interpreted as an infraction. That was a remarkable display of cool, meticulous analysis under conditions of extreme duress. I've absolutely no regrets for re-entering that page on November 8th., when you were just outvoted on questions of principle by an ethnic block, even though I knew it would drag me into opposing another hugely time-consuming piece of useless pettifogging, and windmill tilting. Remember, in the young, this is not a personal loss. It means one's conscience is released from a moral obligation to correct disinformation, the correction of which devours hours, in mediocre labour, ('tis one's time's curse, when the deaf lead the pitch-perfect on', to paraphrase King Lear) that can now be spent in more productive reading and more amenable conversation with girlfriends and colleagues elsewhere. For that, Arbcom's ruling may prove salutary for you. Just one point remains: I think you should ask their permission to settle that document on 'Judea and Samaria'. I won't participate, since my views are identical to yours, only you muster arguments on this technical issue far more succinctly than I can, and in that sense, my participation would just be seen as vote-stacking. My very best wishes, I may drop you a contact note within a year, and thanks indeed for that vast 'expenditure of spirit' in what others made a shameless waste of time you generously gave on a good and proper cause, MM. Nishidani ( talk) 09:12, 10 May 2009 (UTC)
This arbitration case has been closed and the final decision is available at the link above. Canadian Monkey ( talk · contribs), G-Dett ( talk · contribs), MeteorMaker ( talk · contribs), Nickhh ( talk · contribs), Nishidani ( talk · contribs), NoCal100 ( talk · contribs), and Pedrito ( talk · contribs) are prohibited from editing any Arab-Israeli conflict-related article/talk page or discussing on the dispute anywhere else on the project. Jayjg ( talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) is also prohibited from editing in the area of conflict, and he is stripped of his status as a functionary and any and all associated privileged access, including the CheckUser and Oversight tools and the checkuser-l, oversight-l, and functionaries-en mailing lists. Jayjg is also thanked for his years of service.
After six months, these editors may individually ask the Arbitration Committee to lift their editing restrictions after demonstrating commitment to the goals of Wikipedia and ability to work constructively with other editors. However, restrictions may be temporarily suspended for the exclusive purpose of participating in the discussion of draft guidelines for this area.
In the meantime, the community is strongly urged to pursue current discussions to come to a definitive consensus on the preferred current and historical names of the region that is the source of conflict in this case. Note that this must be consistent with current Wikipedia guidelines on reliable sources, a neutral point of view, and naming conventions. This decision will be appended onto this case within two months from the close of the case.
For the Arbitration Committee, hmwith τ 17:33, 12 May 2009 (UTC)
The Defender of the Wiki Barnstar | ||
For hours of fruitless effort trying to protect Wikipedia from nationalist bias. Although you have been sanctioned unfairly, your thoughtful arguments and dogged research have given the community a strong background of information to draw on when denouncing future attempts to portray ideology as fact. untwirl( talk) 14:54, 14 May 2009 (UTC) |
MeteorMaker. I never would have guessed that English wasn't your first language.
[95] Your talk page posts sound very fluent to me. I think you can still do Featured Articles even if English isn't your first language. Feel free to ask me for help: I can check grammar and wording etc., per
User:Coppertwig/Notices#Proofreading offer. Alternatively, you can go to
WP:FAC and help with many articles that others have already written, checking and correcting details, similarly to what I sometimes do. The way the Arbitration decision is written, I think that would count.
I was going to reply to some of your comments in the discussions we were in on the arbitration pages, but didn't have time. Now those things probably don't matter any more, except that I'd like to say that I don't consider someone a "culprit" just because they've been involved in a misunderstanding; every misunderstanding has two sides, the person sending a message and the one receiving it, so there's no point blaming anybody. If there's anything you'd still like an answer on, let me know. I'm sorry about the way the case worked out. ☺
Coppertwig (
talk) 23:32, 16 May 2009 (UTC)
I put a question here about what is the proper way for you to apply. The noticeboard page you edited has a notice at the top saying that only clerks and arbitrators are supposed to edit it. ☺ Coppertwig ( talk) 14:54, 24 May 2009 (UTC)
Hi Roger,
Regarding my application to take part in the J&S guidelines discussion per this decision, it appears that the deadline has passed. According to FloNight, discussion of the application has taken place but the outcome was not disclosed [96], apparently through clerical error. Could you look into this? The most recent official status request is here. MeteorMaker ( talk) 12:51, 12 June 2009 (UTC)
MeteorMaker, I'm sorry that you waited for the reply, had to prompt us, and then were given a negative response. I do understand that this disappointed you. I wish that we had done a better job of communicating with you about the status of the situation. :-( FloNight ♥♥♥ 14:23, 13 June 2009 (UTC)
Your Opinion is More Important than You Think Barnstar | ||
Your well-reasoned and well-put arguments on a heated I/P dispute helped things significantly, and to that you deserve our thanks. The Squicks ( talk) 06:33, 19 June 2009 (UTC) |
I have filed a request to amend the West Bank - Judea and Samaria arbitration case. See here. nableezy - 20:48, 29 December 2009 (UTC)
By motion of the Arbitration Committee voted on at requests for amendment,
The editing restrictions placed on Nishidani ( talk · contribs) in the West Bank - Judea and Samaria case are lifted effective at the passage of this motion. Nishidani is reminded that articles in the area of conflict, which is identical to the area of conflict as defined by the Palestine-Israel articles case, remain the subject of discretionary sanctions; should he edit within this topic area, those discretionary sanctions continue to apply.
For the Arbitration Committee, Hersfold ( t/ a/ c) 17:34, 21 July 2011 (UTC)
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