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You have been randomly selected to receive an invitation to participate in the request for comment on Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Biographies. Should you wish to respond, your contribution to this discussion will be appreciated. For tips, please see Wikipedia:Requests for comment § Suggestions for responding. If you wish to change the frequency or topics of these notices, or do not wish to receive them any longer, please adjust your entries at WP:Feedback request service. — Legobot ( talk) 00:04, 3 January 2015 (UTC)
Hi, the above is being attacked for the 250th!!! time - can you protect? Regards Denisarona ( talk) 16:40, 6 January 2015 (UTC)
I am a marginally active reader and commenter at wikipediocracy, and have gotten to used to seeing Brad be criticized in any number of silly ways over there. Regrettably, it seems to me that I have probably carried over my biases from there back over to here. My apologies. John Carter ( talk) 21:37, 7 January 2015 (UTC)
You may wish to change
By following the recommended descriptions of the AHA we can be sure not to represent the AHA
to
By following the recommended descriptions of the AHA we can be sure not to mis-represent the AHA
All the best:
Rich
Farmbrough, 17:26, 8 January 2015 (UTC).
Hey, Martijn. I see that you have been closing pending TfDs. Would you consider closing this one: Wikipedia:Templates for discussion/Log/2014 December 14#Template:Infobox college football player? It has been open since December 14 -- 28 days, and the !vote has stood at 7 to 2 against the proposed merge since December 31 == 11 days ago. WikiProject College football has a pending initiative to revise the content and graphics of this infobox template to better tailor its suitability for current college players as well as former college players who never played pro football (see here, here, and here). I would be grateful if you could draw a line under this stalled TfD, and let the template stakeholders go forward with the planned revisions to the template and its implementation across 500 to 1,500 articles. Thanks. Dirtlawyer1 ( talk) 03:02, 12 January 2015 (UTC)
Hello! You have been randomly selected to receive an invitation to participate in the request for comment on Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Islam-related articles. Should you wish to respond, your contribution to this discussion will be appreciated.
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compromise
Thank you, vateran editor, for welcoming new users, page moves and redirects, recommending for adminship, discussing articles for deletion and moving articles for creation, for closing template discussions,
criticism wrapped in praise,
thoughts on compromise and the focused brevity of your user page, - you are an
awesome Wikipedian!
Hi, I just tried to edit this page, but got this notification- "2:09, 30 November 2013 Martijn Hoekstra (talk | contribs) deleted page Wikipedia talk:Articles for creation/Mary T. McCarthy (Baschoff) (G13: Rejected or unsubmitted Articles for creation page that has not been edited in over six months (CSDH))" Any way that I could use the text in place and continue editing?
Thanks. 73.163.77.219 ( talk) 15:57, 15 January 2015 (UTC)Sarah McCarthy January 15, 2015
Wikipedia talk:Articles for creation/Time-Resolved Fluorescence Energy Transfer has become eligible for G13. HasteurBot ( talk) 01:33, 16 January 2015 (UTC)
The template merger you recently thanked me for has been reverted at one end. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 23:15, 17 January 2015 (UTC)
I think the discussion ended on the host's page. I just wanted to thank you for being that age-old and timeless "voice of reason." As a final note, I enjoy the activity I have on WP, the research and the editing, and the communication I have with other editors. This was my first unpleasant tête-à-tête, and I will reflect on it. I liked your advice "A thing that can help you is that you are not your edits." It reminded me of Sister Helen Prejean's (Dead Man Walking) - "We are worth more than the worst act we commit," in her thoughts about capital punishment.
I once deleted another editor's unsourced sentence. They were an IP user and had made the single entry as a contributor. Within an hour or so, the IP user came back to the page and deleted something else, that had been sourced, perhaps in retaliation. This was the last time I did not "bother" to go to a Users Talk Page (or create their Talk page, if they did not have one) to discuss my deletion of their edits. I realized that it might have been their first contribution to WP, and as a longer term editor, I should welcome them, not scare them off WP.
In this situation, I realized that the External Links (a Twitter and FB account link) that were taken off my newly created page, by Shinyang-i, had been left untouched in all other pages I had created for the past year. Some of these pages had been reviewed, and I had received the pings of the reviews, and some had been reviewed and rated, which may have lulled me into thinking that adding them was acceptable, since other editors/adminstrators had left them previously.
Regardless of my awareness of WP Rules and Regulations, I have observed and believe the tenants of WP are that a rule is a guide, but not a given. I have observed "overzealous" patrollers who seem to have found a new rule - and are trying to make everyone abide by it. One such was the Edit Summary - which I frankly thought was an option, since many long term users were not adding one, and one had even given the argument that the Edit could be found in the Revision History - and he did not intend to repeat redundant work. The overzealous patroller even crudely told a Korean language speaker that they should leave English WP, after accusing them of not understanding English and ignoring him.
Enough rambling on, thanks again for your wise words - I didn't think this would be a win-lose situation, and feel enriched by it. However, if I get to the point of belittling communication with other editors, of belittling the subject that I am editing, and of using belittling language to others on WP, I will know that my time is no longer fun, and I need to give it up. This is volunteer work, that we do for pleasure - not a hated chore. Thanks again!-- Bonnielou2013 ( talk) 21:57, 18 January 2015 (UTC)
It's not OK however to not take note of some regulation or guideline if someone undoes or changes your edit, pointing at a guideline, which means, we've discussed this issue before, and found that this is the accepted outcome. I have always had as a rule of thumb that if there is a rule on wikipedia, I follow it, unless I understand the rule and all it's nuances very well, and can articulate exactly why it's OK to ignore it in this particular instance. This happens very very rarely, which goes to show that our rules, despite being complex, large in number, sometimes vague, and sometimes overly exact, are probably pretty good.
As on the issue that they are acceptable because they were accepted in review and rating, well, the average Wikipedia page violates about a bazillion Wikipedia rules (give or take). Even our featured articles have still room left for improvement. The only thing you can really take away from something being reviewed is that it passes the bar for speedy deletion, and someone thought that it wouldn't qualify for regular deletion. A whole lot of work goes in to an article to make it go from passing review to making a featured article - a status very few articles ever reach. That means neither that a page that came by review is a bad thing for the encyclopedia, nor that it is very good right away. Just that it's at least in a vaguely passable state, e.g. no irredeemable spam, not gibberish, and that the subject is probably suitable for inclusion. Many articles are far better than that when they pass review, but few are actually very good. That's alright. We're a work in progress. But you can't really draw any other conclusions from it.
I'm not really familiar with either KPop itself of our coverage of it, but I expect it to be one of those subjects that suffer a great deal of systemic bias. There are relatively few English speaking people with an interest in developing articles on the subject in comparison to the size and global notability of the subject matter. What happens often in those areas is that editors lack sufficient reading and writing proficiency in English to either write good prose, understand our rules and guidelines (they are difficult enough to grasp for native speakers, throw in an extra language barrier, and it basically becomes impossible to understand what's going on), or to engage meaningfully with other editors. Couple that with a subject matter that is mainly interesting to, forgive my crudeness, teenage fanboys/fangirls, and that leaves us with something that doesn't have very much resemblance to an encyclopedia anymore. I understand that for editors who want to bring those articles up to a decent state, things must be a constant struggle. It can be exhausting to explain the same thing over and over again to newcomers.
How well one deals with that differs from person to person. I find it very rewarding whenever I am able to actually help someone explain what this place is about, and help them become (better) editors, which for me makes up for the hoards of people who are not here to become (better) editors or to improve Wikipedia, but just to tell the world about how awesome their favorite X is. But from an utilitarian point of view, it makes no sense to try to invest that time in a newcomer whose proficiency in English is simply too poor to ever become an effective editor, as in the case of your story of unwelcomingness. This harsh truth is very unpleasant, and feel like it should be very much removed from the Wikipedia ideal, where we strive to always do the right thing. But currently, it's not, and for a subject matter of which our coverage is - or so I've been told be my multiple people - a mess, I can't blame anyone for not taking the time to help a newcomer when the expected return of investment of helping that newcomer is close to zero. It almost physically hurts me to be so unkind and calculating, but it's the naked truth of the matter. But here me and my soapbox go again, and the best way for anyone to really learn Wikipedia is to do it. So I'd best let you back at it. And so should I, really. Despite my long tenure here, I've never written a single good article, and I really should wipe that blemish from my name. Race you to it? Regards, Martijn Hoekstra ( talk) 23:15, 18 January 2015 (UTC)
Martijn Hoekstra thanks for your time. Yes, I looked through the rating list for articles early on, and am cheered if I get a Start! Hey, it's not a stub! I don't expect to rise very high with K-pop and Korean popular culture related pages, but I'm getting good practice! Good luck with the GA in the near future. And, yes, I'm trying to abide by the rules - I think I may be doing overkill on references. Yes, my acquaintances in K-pop interests are older - but I have seen some good work on WP by serious young people who list bios on their User pages - it's good to see young people excited about WP!
However, a sad note (I did check back to the host page discussion and was concerned that Shinyang-i had called me a "lazy cretin" and then deleted it, which does not delete. Not being that well versed in her level of street language, I had to look it up - I can accept the first definition 1. 1) a stupid person (used as a general term of abuse). but find the 2) a person who is deformed and mentally handicapped because of congenital thyroid deficiency. - a very sad and deplorable way for any person connected to any portion of WP administration to be speaking - and saying it to you, another Administrator. Many of the Talk pages read like novels - but to have this low form of language - especially in connection with handicapped people - is very disheartening. I like intellectual sparring and I have a bawdy sense of humor, she could have called me a bi**ch, a do**chebag or any number of things - but references to handicapped people is politically incorrect and over the top.) I won't make more of an issue of it, I think nature will take it's course.-- Bonnielou2013 ( talk) 01:30, 19 January 2015 (UTC)
Hello! You have been randomly selected to receive an invitation to participate in the request for comment on Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Linking. Should you wish to respond, your contribution to this discussion will be appreciated.
For tips, please see Wikipedia:Requests for comment § Suggestions for responding. If you wish to change the frequency or topics of these notices, or do not wish to receive them any longer, please adjust your entries at WP:Feedback request service. — Legobot ( talk) 00:06, 24 January 2015 (UTC)
I watched you comment on astro object and invite you to look at something more on earth, as just explained here, - perhaps I can understand you better then. Watching here, unless you want to comment in the other template discussion. -- Gerda Arendt ( talk) 14:44, 26 January 2015 (UTC)
Thanks for letting me know. However, I don't like to be called Jackninja. Call me Jack, Ninja5 or Jackninja5. :) Jackninja5 ( talk) 06:36, 27 January 2015 (UTC)
Hey Martin, would you be able to finish the discussion which resulted in the deletion of this template? Thanks! Kevin Rutherford ( talk) 16:11, 27 January 2015 (UTC)
Martijn, I have a question for you. Until mid-December 2014, admin Plastikspork had closed most TfD discussions during my 5+ years on Wikipedia, and recently had closed virtually all of them. For a variety of reasons, I am glad that you have stepped up over the last several weeks and taken the closing of TfDs in hand. I am curious: was this done by pre-arrangement with Plastikspork? Or have you just stepped into the void to fill the need? Plastikspork seems to have stopped editing abruptly in mid-December and has not edited or closed any TfDs since.
I still owe you a follow-up response to several issues you raised on my talk page. That will happen soon. Regards, Dirtlawyer1 ( talk) 00:03, 28 January 2015 (UTC)
I wish they'd come back though, it's better if more then one person does these kinds of things. When it's almost a single person doing something, there is the risk that the process gets molded too much to the interpretation of that single editor, and that's not good for a community process, and also because having a low bus factor is never a good thing (though I'm not too worried about that. In my experience if that does happen, somebody else will step in if the backlog gets too unbearable). I look forward to your follow-up, but don't feel pressured or rushed. I will not hold it against you if you need some more time to gather your thoughts or formulate them well for yourself before writing them down. Martijn Hoekstra ( talk) 00:54, 28 January 2015 (UTC)
No cheering, Martijn. I am hopeful, however, that there will be greater adherence to basic XfD procedures. Dirtlawyer1 ( talk) 14:16, 28 January 2015 (UTC)
Hello! You have been randomly selected to receive an invitation to participate in the request for comment on Wikipedia:Village pump (proposals). Should you wish to respond, your contribution to this discussion will be appreciated.
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Martijn, I would like to request the immediate closure of Wikipedia:Templates for discussion/Log/2015 January 22#Template:Infobox academic division. This TfD was originally initiated as a delete TfD on November 29, 2014; was re-opened as a merge TfD on December 8, 2014, and remained open for 25 days until it was closed as a "keep" by a non-administrator on January 2, 2015; it was re-opened pursuant to a DRV for an inadequate/inappropriate NAC on January 22, 2015, and it has now been open for seven days since then. During the seven days, four more discussion participants have evenly split 2–2, adding to a cumulative !vote of 13–7, or 65% opposed to the proposed merge. It is time that this TfD be closed: it has been open for a total of 32 days, and has attracted 20 participants -- more than all but a handful of TfDs in the past year. It is also evident there is no consensus to support the proposed merge; it's time to draw a line under this one. Thanks. Dirtlawyer1 ( talk) 04:44, 29 January 2015 (UTC)
For the general case, an interesting thought-experiment for the non-applicable parameters is to ask how editors know these non-applicable parameters exist. I assert very few check the template itself for parameters, but rather the documentation.
Now if we would have, hypothetically, a very broad template, with very many parameters that are only applicable for certain cases, and we have very thin wrappers that only allow for the use of certain parameters which it directly forwards to the broad template, and the documentation were to only describe the supported parameters, that wouldn't be a problem. The only effective difference between these two templates would be the documentation. Now suppose we could have a trick to redirect all parameters automatically to the central template, but the documentation of the page would only show the documentation for the specific thin wrapper, how many editors would know the difference between the two (come to think of it, this trick might actually be possible with a Lua module, but that's largely besides the point).
How much worse would having that documentation centrally on the broader template for the specific usecases? To me, the additional effort of finding the right copy/paste template is the only downside over having a thin wrapper, while the upside would be if a parameter is added or changed, the only thing that needs to be changed is the documentation of the template where the actual change is made, as opposed to finding all applicable wrappers, updating them all, and updating all their documentation. Martijn Hoekstra ( talk) 13:17, 29 January 2015 (UTC)
The accumulation of cruft in the more general templates is an issue that is not mitigated by thin wrappers though. The desire to put a large amount of information in infoboxes, and the desire to have infoboxes that present uniform information over a large number of articles are at odds with each other for that case. I do have the feeling that the accumulation of cruft leads to more intricacies and maintenance headaches in templates than having redundant templates does. The desire to create broad templates everyone is happy with can sometimes result in the creation of overly broad templates nobody is happy with, and it's a balancing act what to do exactly. I prefer in general more uniform templates across a wider range of articles, and generally prefer to trim little-used parameters as I believe our infoboxes being uniform is more of a service to our readers than our infoboxes having more information (within reasonable limits, where reasonable is totally subjective), but that's definitely not agreed by everybody.
There is a catch-22 worth noting when it comes to the relation of wikiprojects and the templates they use. The people who write our articles on specific subjects often have a perspective that mainly focuses on that single subject. As such, there is the real risk they lose track of the bigger picture of uniformity across the whole of Wikipedia. The desire of some people in wikiprojects to maintain their "own" templates is an exponent of that, which runs directly counter to WP:OWN. I see a lot of sentiments on TfD of people who believe that "they" are trying to delete "our" templates, starting a TfD off with hostility from the get go.
That's why centralized discussion at TfD are important, and pre-grooming discussions at wikiprojects can be dangerous; sometimes views need to be a little more broad than a specific subject area in the best interest of the entire encyclopedia. At the same time, those editors are most qualified to discuss a templates; they are the ones who use them and encounter their limitations and problems, and can predict most problems of a merge or deletion.
For these specific closures (the "university set"), I share all of your concerns, from the nobody closing them for quite a while, to the lumbering forward as zombies in a fog of haze that clouds the central points being attempted to be made. But I'm not going to solve this particular issue.
At this point I'd like to ping Andy, not because I'm talking to him, but I will be talking about him, and I don't like to talk about people behind their backs too much. As for the nominator not proposing those things, well, I would prefer if he would do so as well, but there is some more perspective. Firstly, from what I see at TfD, Andy often makes a proposal, and only responds if he perceives something as factually wrong, with what I interpret as a desire to keep the discussion open and free. I've seen a lot of comments that say the exact opposite, that he tries to bludgeon discussion, but that's not my impression at all. I often see that when somebody actually brings up a reasonable alternative Andy supports it. He could be more forthcoming with suggesting compromises like thin wrappers himself (though he's under no obligation, and why should he, if others don't either? answer: because others often don't have the same grasp of the possibilities of what to best do with templates that he does)
That brings me to secondly though; he's often put in between a rock and a hard place. If he proposes a concrete proposal, he is getting blamed for not offering any alternatives. If he offers more alternatives in a TfD, he gets blamed for making suggestions not in line with the original proposal. If he includes them in the original proposal, he is getting told to proposal is too vague to support. There really is no way to do it right and please them all.
This is a similar situation where he is simultaneously blamed for including a TfD notification and not including a TfD notification of merge targets, sometimes in the same discussion. This is also a similar situation to where he proposes something for deletion, and people object saying it's not a merge proposal, and then when the TfD closes, and he re-opens a merge proposal, people object to it because a TfD about the subject was just recently closed as keep.
I note that this is almost the situation for the academic division one. You can't blame the man for in good faith listing some template for discussion, you can't blame him for re-opening as a merge proposal if a large number of people in the TfD just said that they oppose because it's not a merge proposal. You can't blame him for the discussion being relisted, and you can't blame him either for bringing a close to DRV, especially if the DRV closed in support of his nomination there. In the end, we have a lumbering zombie TfD, which sucks, but we have no witch to burn here that caused this in Andy. Martijn Hoekstra ( talk) 15:18, 29 January 2015 (UTC)
Thanks for thinking about motion in the infoboxes field. Mine would be even simpler: all participants stick to 1 revert in an article and 2 comments in a discussion. At present only I am restricted to two comments, see what happens. I didn't even mention Wikipedia:Disinfoboxes: a refutation this time ;) -- Gerda Arendt ( talk) 18:58, 29 January 2015 (UTC)
Hi Martijn. I'm closing some of the RfCs dealing with user-rights; when I'm done with that, I want to start some conversations on what makes people more (or less) comfortable with the issues. You said "There is talk of the grand AI in the sky" at WP:VPR ... and I'm torn on that one. If people agree that within 10 years, AI will be able to help us with some of the simpler admin chores, that might be reassuring ... we don't have to do all this hard work ourselves forever, we just need a solution that can work for up to 10 years. On the other hand, AI freaks a lot of people out. But I'm open to the idea that AI is part of the eventual mix; what did you have in mind with your comment? - Dank ( push to talk) 15:17, 30 January 2015 (UTC)
I'm also very weary of trying to frame discussions so that their outcomes would suit my preferences. We as a community should be able to come to a reasonable conclusion together without the need to frame the discussion in some way to get maximum traction. But empirically it's clear we aren't; I'm just still in denial. I'll now go and try to come to terms with my peevedness. Martijn Hoekstra ( talk) 16:31, 30 January 2015 (UTC)
You brightened my day with the info, hopefully this will brighten yours!
FKLinguista (
talk)
21:04, 31 January 2015 (UTC)
![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
You have been randomly selected to receive an invitation to participate in the request for comment on Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Biographies. Should you wish to respond, your contribution to this discussion will be appreciated. For tips, please see Wikipedia:Requests for comment § Suggestions for responding. If you wish to change the frequency or topics of these notices, or do not wish to receive them any longer, please adjust your entries at WP:Feedback request service. — Legobot ( talk) 00:04, 3 January 2015 (UTC)
Hi, the above is being attacked for the 250th!!! time - can you protect? Regards Denisarona ( talk) 16:40, 6 January 2015 (UTC)
I am a marginally active reader and commenter at wikipediocracy, and have gotten to used to seeing Brad be criticized in any number of silly ways over there. Regrettably, it seems to me that I have probably carried over my biases from there back over to here. My apologies. John Carter ( talk) 21:37, 7 January 2015 (UTC)
You may wish to change
By following the recommended descriptions of the AHA we can be sure not to represent the AHA
to
By following the recommended descriptions of the AHA we can be sure not to mis-represent the AHA
All the best:
Rich
Farmbrough, 17:26, 8 January 2015 (UTC).
Hey, Martijn. I see that you have been closing pending TfDs. Would you consider closing this one: Wikipedia:Templates for discussion/Log/2014 December 14#Template:Infobox college football player? It has been open since December 14 -- 28 days, and the !vote has stood at 7 to 2 against the proposed merge since December 31 == 11 days ago. WikiProject College football has a pending initiative to revise the content and graphics of this infobox template to better tailor its suitability for current college players as well as former college players who never played pro football (see here, here, and here). I would be grateful if you could draw a line under this stalled TfD, and let the template stakeholders go forward with the planned revisions to the template and its implementation across 500 to 1,500 articles. Thanks. Dirtlawyer1 ( talk) 03:02, 12 January 2015 (UTC)
Hello! You have been randomly selected to receive an invitation to participate in the request for comment on Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Islam-related articles. Should you wish to respond, your contribution to this discussion will be appreciated.
For tips, please see Wikipedia:Requests for comment § Suggestions for responding. If you wish to change the frequency or topics of these notices, or do not wish to receive them any longer, please adjust your entries at WP:Feedback request service. — Legobot ( talk) 00:05, 13 January 2015 (UTC)
compromise
Thank you, vateran editor, for welcoming new users, page moves and redirects, recommending for adminship, discussing articles for deletion and moving articles for creation, for closing template discussions,
criticism wrapped in praise,
thoughts on compromise and the focused brevity of your user page, - you are an
awesome Wikipedian!
Hi, I just tried to edit this page, but got this notification- "2:09, 30 November 2013 Martijn Hoekstra (talk | contribs) deleted page Wikipedia talk:Articles for creation/Mary T. McCarthy (Baschoff) (G13: Rejected or unsubmitted Articles for creation page that has not been edited in over six months (CSDH))" Any way that I could use the text in place and continue editing?
Thanks. 73.163.77.219 ( talk) 15:57, 15 January 2015 (UTC)Sarah McCarthy January 15, 2015
Wikipedia talk:Articles for creation/Time-Resolved Fluorescence Energy Transfer has become eligible for G13. HasteurBot ( talk) 01:33, 16 January 2015 (UTC)
The template merger you recently thanked me for has been reverted at one end. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 23:15, 17 January 2015 (UTC)
I think the discussion ended on the host's page. I just wanted to thank you for being that age-old and timeless "voice of reason." As a final note, I enjoy the activity I have on WP, the research and the editing, and the communication I have with other editors. This was my first unpleasant tête-à-tête, and I will reflect on it. I liked your advice "A thing that can help you is that you are not your edits." It reminded me of Sister Helen Prejean's (Dead Man Walking) - "We are worth more than the worst act we commit," in her thoughts about capital punishment.
I once deleted another editor's unsourced sentence. They were an IP user and had made the single entry as a contributor. Within an hour or so, the IP user came back to the page and deleted something else, that had been sourced, perhaps in retaliation. This was the last time I did not "bother" to go to a Users Talk Page (or create their Talk page, if they did not have one) to discuss my deletion of their edits. I realized that it might have been their first contribution to WP, and as a longer term editor, I should welcome them, not scare them off WP.
In this situation, I realized that the External Links (a Twitter and FB account link) that were taken off my newly created page, by Shinyang-i, had been left untouched in all other pages I had created for the past year. Some of these pages had been reviewed, and I had received the pings of the reviews, and some had been reviewed and rated, which may have lulled me into thinking that adding them was acceptable, since other editors/adminstrators had left them previously.
Regardless of my awareness of WP Rules and Regulations, I have observed and believe the tenants of WP are that a rule is a guide, but not a given. I have observed "overzealous" patrollers who seem to have found a new rule - and are trying to make everyone abide by it. One such was the Edit Summary - which I frankly thought was an option, since many long term users were not adding one, and one had even given the argument that the Edit could be found in the Revision History - and he did not intend to repeat redundant work. The overzealous patroller even crudely told a Korean language speaker that they should leave English WP, after accusing them of not understanding English and ignoring him.
Enough rambling on, thanks again for your wise words - I didn't think this would be a win-lose situation, and feel enriched by it. However, if I get to the point of belittling communication with other editors, of belittling the subject that I am editing, and of using belittling language to others on WP, I will know that my time is no longer fun, and I need to give it up. This is volunteer work, that we do for pleasure - not a hated chore. Thanks again!-- Bonnielou2013 ( talk) 21:57, 18 January 2015 (UTC)
It's not OK however to not take note of some regulation or guideline if someone undoes or changes your edit, pointing at a guideline, which means, we've discussed this issue before, and found that this is the accepted outcome. I have always had as a rule of thumb that if there is a rule on wikipedia, I follow it, unless I understand the rule and all it's nuances very well, and can articulate exactly why it's OK to ignore it in this particular instance. This happens very very rarely, which goes to show that our rules, despite being complex, large in number, sometimes vague, and sometimes overly exact, are probably pretty good.
As on the issue that they are acceptable because they were accepted in review and rating, well, the average Wikipedia page violates about a bazillion Wikipedia rules (give or take). Even our featured articles have still room left for improvement. The only thing you can really take away from something being reviewed is that it passes the bar for speedy deletion, and someone thought that it wouldn't qualify for regular deletion. A whole lot of work goes in to an article to make it go from passing review to making a featured article - a status very few articles ever reach. That means neither that a page that came by review is a bad thing for the encyclopedia, nor that it is very good right away. Just that it's at least in a vaguely passable state, e.g. no irredeemable spam, not gibberish, and that the subject is probably suitable for inclusion. Many articles are far better than that when they pass review, but few are actually very good. That's alright. We're a work in progress. But you can't really draw any other conclusions from it.
I'm not really familiar with either KPop itself of our coverage of it, but I expect it to be one of those subjects that suffer a great deal of systemic bias. There are relatively few English speaking people with an interest in developing articles on the subject in comparison to the size and global notability of the subject matter. What happens often in those areas is that editors lack sufficient reading and writing proficiency in English to either write good prose, understand our rules and guidelines (they are difficult enough to grasp for native speakers, throw in an extra language barrier, and it basically becomes impossible to understand what's going on), or to engage meaningfully with other editors. Couple that with a subject matter that is mainly interesting to, forgive my crudeness, teenage fanboys/fangirls, and that leaves us with something that doesn't have very much resemblance to an encyclopedia anymore. I understand that for editors who want to bring those articles up to a decent state, things must be a constant struggle. It can be exhausting to explain the same thing over and over again to newcomers.
How well one deals with that differs from person to person. I find it very rewarding whenever I am able to actually help someone explain what this place is about, and help them become (better) editors, which for me makes up for the hoards of people who are not here to become (better) editors or to improve Wikipedia, but just to tell the world about how awesome their favorite X is. But from an utilitarian point of view, it makes no sense to try to invest that time in a newcomer whose proficiency in English is simply too poor to ever become an effective editor, as in the case of your story of unwelcomingness. This harsh truth is very unpleasant, and feel like it should be very much removed from the Wikipedia ideal, where we strive to always do the right thing. But currently, it's not, and for a subject matter of which our coverage is - or so I've been told be my multiple people - a mess, I can't blame anyone for not taking the time to help a newcomer when the expected return of investment of helping that newcomer is close to zero. It almost physically hurts me to be so unkind and calculating, but it's the naked truth of the matter. But here me and my soapbox go again, and the best way for anyone to really learn Wikipedia is to do it. So I'd best let you back at it. And so should I, really. Despite my long tenure here, I've never written a single good article, and I really should wipe that blemish from my name. Race you to it? Regards, Martijn Hoekstra ( talk) 23:15, 18 January 2015 (UTC)
Martijn Hoekstra thanks for your time. Yes, I looked through the rating list for articles early on, and am cheered if I get a Start! Hey, it's not a stub! I don't expect to rise very high with K-pop and Korean popular culture related pages, but I'm getting good practice! Good luck with the GA in the near future. And, yes, I'm trying to abide by the rules - I think I may be doing overkill on references. Yes, my acquaintances in K-pop interests are older - but I have seen some good work on WP by serious young people who list bios on their User pages - it's good to see young people excited about WP!
However, a sad note (I did check back to the host page discussion and was concerned that Shinyang-i had called me a "lazy cretin" and then deleted it, which does not delete. Not being that well versed in her level of street language, I had to look it up - I can accept the first definition 1. 1) a stupid person (used as a general term of abuse). but find the 2) a person who is deformed and mentally handicapped because of congenital thyroid deficiency. - a very sad and deplorable way for any person connected to any portion of WP administration to be speaking - and saying it to you, another Administrator. Many of the Talk pages read like novels - but to have this low form of language - especially in connection with handicapped people - is very disheartening. I like intellectual sparring and I have a bawdy sense of humor, she could have called me a bi**ch, a do**chebag or any number of things - but references to handicapped people is politically incorrect and over the top.) I won't make more of an issue of it, I think nature will take it's course.-- Bonnielou2013 ( talk) 01:30, 19 January 2015 (UTC)
Hello! You have been randomly selected to receive an invitation to participate in the request for comment on Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Linking. Should you wish to respond, your contribution to this discussion will be appreciated.
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I watched you comment on astro object and invite you to look at something more on earth, as just explained here, - perhaps I can understand you better then. Watching here, unless you want to comment in the other template discussion. -- Gerda Arendt ( talk) 14:44, 26 January 2015 (UTC)
Thanks for letting me know. However, I don't like to be called Jackninja. Call me Jack, Ninja5 or Jackninja5. :) Jackninja5 ( talk) 06:36, 27 January 2015 (UTC)
Hey Martin, would you be able to finish the discussion which resulted in the deletion of this template? Thanks! Kevin Rutherford ( talk) 16:11, 27 January 2015 (UTC)
Martijn, I have a question for you. Until mid-December 2014, admin Plastikspork had closed most TfD discussions during my 5+ years on Wikipedia, and recently had closed virtually all of them. For a variety of reasons, I am glad that you have stepped up over the last several weeks and taken the closing of TfDs in hand. I am curious: was this done by pre-arrangement with Plastikspork? Or have you just stepped into the void to fill the need? Plastikspork seems to have stopped editing abruptly in mid-December and has not edited or closed any TfDs since.
I still owe you a follow-up response to several issues you raised on my talk page. That will happen soon. Regards, Dirtlawyer1 ( talk) 00:03, 28 January 2015 (UTC)
I wish they'd come back though, it's better if more then one person does these kinds of things. When it's almost a single person doing something, there is the risk that the process gets molded too much to the interpretation of that single editor, and that's not good for a community process, and also because having a low bus factor is never a good thing (though I'm not too worried about that. In my experience if that does happen, somebody else will step in if the backlog gets too unbearable). I look forward to your follow-up, but don't feel pressured or rushed. I will not hold it against you if you need some more time to gather your thoughts or formulate them well for yourself before writing them down. Martijn Hoekstra ( talk) 00:54, 28 January 2015 (UTC)
No cheering, Martijn. I am hopeful, however, that there will be greater adherence to basic XfD procedures. Dirtlawyer1 ( talk) 14:16, 28 January 2015 (UTC)
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Martijn, I would like to request the immediate closure of Wikipedia:Templates for discussion/Log/2015 January 22#Template:Infobox academic division. This TfD was originally initiated as a delete TfD on November 29, 2014; was re-opened as a merge TfD on December 8, 2014, and remained open for 25 days until it was closed as a "keep" by a non-administrator on January 2, 2015; it was re-opened pursuant to a DRV for an inadequate/inappropriate NAC on January 22, 2015, and it has now been open for seven days since then. During the seven days, four more discussion participants have evenly split 2–2, adding to a cumulative !vote of 13–7, or 65% opposed to the proposed merge. It is time that this TfD be closed: it has been open for a total of 32 days, and has attracted 20 participants -- more than all but a handful of TfDs in the past year. It is also evident there is no consensus to support the proposed merge; it's time to draw a line under this one. Thanks. Dirtlawyer1 ( talk) 04:44, 29 January 2015 (UTC)
For the general case, an interesting thought-experiment for the non-applicable parameters is to ask how editors know these non-applicable parameters exist. I assert very few check the template itself for parameters, but rather the documentation.
Now if we would have, hypothetically, a very broad template, with very many parameters that are only applicable for certain cases, and we have very thin wrappers that only allow for the use of certain parameters which it directly forwards to the broad template, and the documentation were to only describe the supported parameters, that wouldn't be a problem. The only effective difference between these two templates would be the documentation. Now suppose we could have a trick to redirect all parameters automatically to the central template, but the documentation of the page would only show the documentation for the specific thin wrapper, how many editors would know the difference between the two (come to think of it, this trick might actually be possible with a Lua module, but that's largely besides the point).
How much worse would having that documentation centrally on the broader template for the specific usecases? To me, the additional effort of finding the right copy/paste template is the only downside over having a thin wrapper, while the upside would be if a parameter is added or changed, the only thing that needs to be changed is the documentation of the template where the actual change is made, as opposed to finding all applicable wrappers, updating them all, and updating all their documentation. Martijn Hoekstra ( talk) 13:17, 29 January 2015 (UTC)
The accumulation of cruft in the more general templates is an issue that is not mitigated by thin wrappers though. The desire to put a large amount of information in infoboxes, and the desire to have infoboxes that present uniform information over a large number of articles are at odds with each other for that case. I do have the feeling that the accumulation of cruft leads to more intricacies and maintenance headaches in templates than having redundant templates does. The desire to create broad templates everyone is happy with can sometimes result in the creation of overly broad templates nobody is happy with, and it's a balancing act what to do exactly. I prefer in general more uniform templates across a wider range of articles, and generally prefer to trim little-used parameters as I believe our infoboxes being uniform is more of a service to our readers than our infoboxes having more information (within reasonable limits, where reasonable is totally subjective), but that's definitely not agreed by everybody.
There is a catch-22 worth noting when it comes to the relation of wikiprojects and the templates they use. The people who write our articles on specific subjects often have a perspective that mainly focuses on that single subject. As such, there is the real risk they lose track of the bigger picture of uniformity across the whole of Wikipedia. The desire of some people in wikiprojects to maintain their "own" templates is an exponent of that, which runs directly counter to WP:OWN. I see a lot of sentiments on TfD of people who believe that "they" are trying to delete "our" templates, starting a TfD off with hostility from the get go.
That's why centralized discussion at TfD are important, and pre-grooming discussions at wikiprojects can be dangerous; sometimes views need to be a little more broad than a specific subject area in the best interest of the entire encyclopedia. At the same time, those editors are most qualified to discuss a templates; they are the ones who use them and encounter their limitations and problems, and can predict most problems of a merge or deletion.
For these specific closures (the "university set"), I share all of your concerns, from the nobody closing them for quite a while, to the lumbering forward as zombies in a fog of haze that clouds the central points being attempted to be made. But I'm not going to solve this particular issue.
At this point I'd like to ping Andy, not because I'm talking to him, but I will be talking about him, and I don't like to talk about people behind their backs too much. As for the nominator not proposing those things, well, I would prefer if he would do so as well, but there is some more perspective. Firstly, from what I see at TfD, Andy often makes a proposal, and only responds if he perceives something as factually wrong, with what I interpret as a desire to keep the discussion open and free. I've seen a lot of comments that say the exact opposite, that he tries to bludgeon discussion, but that's not my impression at all. I often see that when somebody actually brings up a reasonable alternative Andy supports it. He could be more forthcoming with suggesting compromises like thin wrappers himself (though he's under no obligation, and why should he, if others don't either? answer: because others often don't have the same grasp of the possibilities of what to best do with templates that he does)
That brings me to secondly though; he's often put in between a rock and a hard place. If he proposes a concrete proposal, he is getting blamed for not offering any alternatives. If he offers more alternatives in a TfD, he gets blamed for making suggestions not in line with the original proposal. If he includes them in the original proposal, he is getting told to proposal is too vague to support. There really is no way to do it right and please them all.
This is a similar situation where he is simultaneously blamed for including a TfD notification and not including a TfD notification of merge targets, sometimes in the same discussion. This is also a similar situation to where he proposes something for deletion, and people object saying it's not a merge proposal, and then when the TfD closes, and he re-opens a merge proposal, people object to it because a TfD about the subject was just recently closed as keep.
I note that this is almost the situation for the academic division one. You can't blame the man for in good faith listing some template for discussion, you can't blame him for re-opening as a merge proposal if a large number of people in the TfD just said that they oppose because it's not a merge proposal. You can't blame him for the discussion being relisted, and you can't blame him either for bringing a close to DRV, especially if the DRV closed in support of his nomination there. In the end, we have a lumbering zombie TfD, which sucks, but we have no witch to burn here that caused this in Andy. Martijn Hoekstra ( talk) 15:18, 29 January 2015 (UTC)
Thanks for thinking about motion in the infoboxes field. Mine would be even simpler: all participants stick to 1 revert in an article and 2 comments in a discussion. At present only I am restricted to two comments, see what happens. I didn't even mention Wikipedia:Disinfoboxes: a refutation this time ;) -- Gerda Arendt ( talk) 18:58, 29 January 2015 (UTC)
Hi Martijn. I'm closing some of the RfCs dealing with user-rights; when I'm done with that, I want to start some conversations on what makes people more (or less) comfortable with the issues. You said "There is talk of the grand AI in the sky" at WP:VPR ... and I'm torn on that one. If people agree that within 10 years, AI will be able to help us with some of the simpler admin chores, that might be reassuring ... we don't have to do all this hard work ourselves forever, we just need a solution that can work for up to 10 years. On the other hand, AI freaks a lot of people out. But I'm open to the idea that AI is part of the eventual mix; what did you have in mind with your comment? - Dank ( push to talk) 15:17, 30 January 2015 (UTC)
I'm also very weary of trying to frame discussions so that their outcomes would suit my preferences. We as a community should be able to come to a reasonable conclusion together without the need to frame the discussion in some way to get maximum traction. But empirically it's clear we aren't; I'm just still in denial. I'll now go and try to come to terms with my peevedness. Martijn Hoekstra ( talk) 16:31, 30 January 2015 (UTC)
You brightened my day with the info, hopefully this will brighten yours!
FKLinguista (
talk)
21:04, 31 January 2015 (UTC)