![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
I was a bit slow in my response yesterday, I have family pressure to spend time dealing with real world problems. Wikipedia must be put on the back burner. Unfortunately most Wikipedians must depend on Google books which limits the quality of the content. To compound matters Wikipedia can become a battleground for ethnic warriors. -- Woogie10w ( talk) 10:51, 30 November 2015 (UTC)
Hi! You mentioned that axishistory.org is not a reliable source. I was just wondering what page I made that edit to so I can revert it for you. Thanks:) Thomasnetrpm ( talk) 19:14, 3 December 2015 (UTC)
G'day K.e.coffman, I have seen that you have placed a number of {{cn}} tags on 11th SS Volunteer Panzergrenadier Division Nordland and others. I see you also put a {{refimprove}} on the former article as well. In case you didn't know, it is completely unnecessary to tag every uncited paragraph with a {{cn}} when the whole article has been tagged for reference improvement. Thanks, Peacemaker67 ( crack... thump) 01:45, 5 December 2015 (UTC)
Hi, I'm unclear why you removed all 3 links to relevant websites in Panzer Division Jüterbog, as I used them to validate the order of battle. Maybe I forgot to add relevant citations... would adding these address any concerns you may have? Regards, DPdH ( talk) 02:49, 5 December 2015 (UTC)
Some acceptable links include those that contain further research that is accurate and on-topic, information that could not be added to the article for reasons such as copyright or amount of detail, or other meaningful, relevant content that is not suitable for inclusion in an article for reasons unrelated to its accuracy. Some external links are welcome (see § What can normally be linked), but it is not Wikipedia's purpose to include a lengthy or comprehensive list of external links related to each topic. No page should be linked from a Wikipedia article unless its inclusion is justifiable according to this guideline and common sense. The burden of providing this justification is on the person who wants to include an external link.
Hello, you appear to be removing fprado, armorsite and axis history as references from multiple articles. I don't think this is helpful. These sites provide their own sources at the bottom of their pages. If you think they are unreliable, I think it would be better to mark this with tags (like {{unreliable source?}}, and/or check the sources they use as references and use those instead, if appropriate. You are also sometimes removing the text they support - you should only do this if you think the text is actually wrong, rather than badly supported. ( Hohum @) 16:41, 5 December 2015 (UTC)
Thank you for your comment on my talk page about Lulu's unreliability. I actually agree with you. The reason why I had added reference to this source to List of members of the British Free Corps was in order to point out the errors therein. I feel that, where there is incorrect information on a topic circulating around the web, Wikipedia can perform a valuable function in correcting it (with reliable sources, of course!). Alekksandr ( talk) 20:17, 5 December 2015 (UTC)
G'day, sorry but there appears to be some sort of misunderstanding about what should be deleted on WP, and I just want to clarify it before this gets too far down the track. If someone has added material to an article (and WP:BLP]] doesn't apply) and it hasn't been cited, then you have a few options. If that is the case with quite a bit of the article, you can place a {{refimprove}} tag at the top, but don't use a {{cn}} tag on every uncited paragraph. If you reasonably suspect a particular bit of information is dubious, you might use the {{dubious}} tag, or in the same situation, you might use the {{cn}} tag. But some material being in an article for years without a citation is not justification for its wholesale deletion. It may in fact be entirely correct, and you are not helping to build the encyclopedia (however flawed it may be) by just deleting such material. On a positive note, IMHO it is good that you are deleting citations from unreliable bloggy sources like axishistory and feldgrau. But just because material is sourced to them doesn't mean it is wrong. Thanks, Peacemaker67 ( crack... thump) 02:33, 5 December 2015 (UTC)
- During 1941, the Heer officers in charge of the deployment of the SS Division "Wiking" were sceptical of its fighting abilities and so were hesitant to commit it to any major actions. As the division proved itself again and again in combat, it began to earn the grudging respect of the Heer commanders.
- During its first action, near Tarnopol in Galicia, Ukraine, the division acquitted itself well.
- "Nordland"'s assault soon bogged down, as the soldiers realised that not only were they outnumbered by the Red Army, but the latter were also well entrenched in prepared positions. Within thirty minutes, almost half of the men of the regiment had fallen. Despite this, they still captured the hill.
- Several combat units were reduced to only dozens of men, and as a veteran later wrote, "Casualties weren't counted any more, just men left alive."
- By now the division had gained a reputation as an elite formation.
- Erich von Manstein threw 5 SS "Wiking" and the 11th Panzer-Division into action against the Soviet Mobile Group Popov, which was threatening to break through to the vital rail line. 5 SS "Wiking" had great difficulty dealing with the armour-heavy Soviet formation. The Panzergrenadier regiments of 5 SS "Wiking" were exhausted and understrength from the fighting in the Caucasus. Despite this, the division held off the Soviet assault, protecting the vital rail line and helping bring about the destruction of Mobile Group "Popov".
- His replacement was Herbert Otto Gille, who was to prove himself Steiner's equal.
- The 5 SS "Wiking" was engaged against the forces near Kharkov, with the Estonians acquitting themselves well, destroying around 100 Red Army tanks over several days.
- In subsequent fighting, the SS divisions defeated two Soviet tank armies (totaling over 1,000 tanks), destroying over 800 of them. At no time did the SS divisions have any more than 50 panzers in working order.
- It was the subject of ridicule by many "Wiking" veterans until they proved their worth in the fighting for a forest near Teklino, at the head of a salient into the Soviet lines.
- After repulsing all Soviet attempts to break through near the town of Novaya-Buda, the 5 SS "Wiking" rearguard split up and began withdrawing under cover of darkness. Advancing through "Hell's Gate", the "Wiking" came under heavy fire. The division suffered heavy losses in men and materials during the carnage of the Korsun Pocket. Gille, the Divisional commander, had proven his loyalty to his men, fighting alongside them and remaining in action until all survivors had escaped. He was one of the last to cross the Gniloy Tikich River to safety.
- Nicolussi Leck immediately launched an attack with five tanks. Soon after beginning the assault, he received a radio message from the besieged commander to halt his attack and withdraw. Leck ordered his radio operator to ignore the call, and continue with the attack.
- A heavy battle ensued, with the "Wiking" and the "Totenkopf" seeing many of the Red Army tanks destroyed. In three days, the two formations had driven 45 kilometres over rugged terrain, over half the distance from their start point to Budapest. The Soviets manoeuvred forces to block the advance, and they barely managed to halt the Germans at Bicske, only 28 kilometres from Budapest.
- In atrocious conditions, the "Wiking" advanced south towards Budapest.
- Despite the operation's success, it had been overextended and were vulnerable to attack, unable to exploit its breakthrough and eventually ordered to pull back and regroup. Hitler was furious at the lack of progress, and called the operation 'utterly pointless'.
- Acting quickly, Balck recommended moving the I SS Panzer Corps north to plug the gap and prevent the encirclement of the IV SS Panzer Corps. Despite this quick thinking, a Führer Order authorising this move was slow in coming.
- Desperate, Balck threw the veteran 9th SS Panzer Division "Hohenstaufen" into the area to hold open the small exit.
I was asked to comment on this discussion on my talk page by K.e.coffman. Given the amount of fanboy nonsense in articles on the Waffen-SS, I think that there's a solid case for removing dubious-looking and unreferenced material, and then rebuilding the article. Regarding the material in question it looks like a mix of stuff which I think should be removed (eg, "During 1941, the Heer officers in charge of the deployment of the SS Division "Wiking" were sceptical of its fighting abilities and so were hesitant to commit it to any major actions. As the division proved itself again and again in combat, it began to earn the grudging respect of the Heer commanders.") and material which could be left for now (eg, most of the para starting with "In the first week of November 1942, the division was transferred from the Terek bend"). Nick-D ( talk) 05:58, 5 December 2015 (UTC)
K.e.: A few things to remember - grammar footnote: German language nouns, even common nouns, are always capitalized; further one is to use italics for phrases in other languages and for isolated foreign words that are not currently used in English, per WP:MOS. So, please do not revert when properly used in an article. And if you have reverted isolated foreign words (German) in certain articles I have not seen, then please revert back, accordingly. Here is one of the recent times this was discussed, [1], even though it was not the main issue. BTW-some books shown on Google Books preview shows ranks not in italics for certain books, but in the print edition in Stein's book "The Waffen-SS: Hitler's Elite Guard at War 1939–1945", for example, which I have, German SS ranks are in italics. Thanks, Kierzek ( talk) 22:51, 7 December 2015 (UTC)
I am going through units and individuals to cut any grotesque puffery. Some of the stuff reads like the worst of The Forgotten Soldier. 12th SS looks fairly sane, but will work through it and others. Knights cross holders bios are fairly bad at the moment. I will not be directly removing sources, merely cutting the more self-pitying rubbish that appears to be the Neo-Nazi idea of literary style. I think we should co-ordinate. Regards Irondome ( talk) 03:30, 9 December 2015 (UTC)
This would probably be a good place to start for the units: List of Waffen-SS divisions. And here for Waffen-SS generals: Obergruppenführer They are probably the most prominent ones, as commanders or large units, book authors, etc. What do you think? K.e.coffman ( talk) 04:19, 9 December 2015 (UTC)
@ Irondome: Some further thoughts following the inputs by others. Coincidentally, I posted a similar message on Nick-D's page, and his suggestion was perhaps posting to the MilHist discussion board -- WT:MILHIST -- asking for help. What do you think? It may help to define the parameters of the clean-up.
I think that at the very least both non-NPOV language and dubious unsourced claims (destroyed 100 tanks; annihilated an enemy division; led from the front; etc) should be removed. Where we may need to get consensus from other members is what to do with "dubious claims sourced to dubious tertiary sources" i.e. Axishistory, feldgrau, etc. as well as various articles, which in turn cite from divisional histories/memoirs written by former Waffen-SS members. (That's a major issue on Div Hitlerjugend's page, where Latimer quotes from Meyer, and Latimer's article has over 20 refs in the page.) Separately, we need to discuss what to do with dubious claims sourced to works by various SS admirers, such as Yerger, Williamson, Agte, (others?), etc. BTW, I did get feedback from the RSN on Atge; but need to decide what to do with the claims the Agte source supports. IMO, they should go; while another view may be to not remove statements, but look for better sources. (However, with the scope of this project, I don't see how the latter is feasible).
BTW, while copy-editing Williamson's article, I came across a review of his The SS: Hitler's Instrument of Terror from AxisHistory.com. The review has eerie similarities to the language and tone I've been encountering on the Waffen-SS unit and commander pages: "Holding the Line", desperate defensive battles, "The Birth of the SS", "Forged in Combat", infamous (this word appears 4 times in the review), military exploits; also notice "even" in "even the Waffen-SS committed crimes". So even via a 3-rd party review, it looks (?) like all of these articles have been sourced from somewhere very close to Williamson's rendering of the Waffen-SS.
Separately, while the divisional list is good, I now think that Obergruppenführer is too high of a level to start with for personnel, and it also catches SD, Gestapo, etc. An option, instead, could be to look at "Commanders" in the infoblock ( example) or "Commanders" sections in the divisional article, such as here. (I believe that's how I came across Witt/Meyer/Wunsche.) As the higher ranking officers, they may be good for the first pass at the personnel articles. What do you think? And please let me know about posting to MilHist. K.e.coffman ( talk) 21:08, 9 December 2015 (UTC)
Dubious claims defined as those that are potentially unverifiable or that make a strong statement that needs to be cited to meet WP's requirement for verifiability/reliability: Lead from the front; annihilated an enemy division; destroyed 100 tanks; was instrumental in the victory; repulsed all attacks; etc.
Non-controversial statements defined as those that are potentially verifiable: unit movements; unit order of battle; fact of a decoration; participation in an operation; date of birth/death; date of promotion; date of surrender; etc.
Okay, I will take 1 through 4; that will be a big improvement. Can we throw in the External links too? :-) I'm reading in WP:EXT:
Some acceptable links include those that contain further research that is accurate and on-topic, information that could not be added to the article for reasons such as copyright or amount of detail, or other meaningful, relevant content that is not suitable for inclusion in an article for reasons unrelated to its accuracy.
The examples given (axishistory; panzerace; etc) are not known for their accuracy, IMO.
I also agree on discernment. For high-profile or well-tended articles, we could take any content/source removal to the Talk page first, rather than editing outright. One of my outstanding items of this nature it to close out on Peiper/Agte. In any case, for virtue of being high-profile articles, the major issues we are discussing here should be pretty infrequent. Does this sound good? K.e.coffman ( talk) 23:11, 9 December 2015 (UTC)
Here's the outcome from the Waffen-SS and Individual Articles discussion above:
Project scope: Initial scope will be Waffen-SS divisions and Waffen-SS divisional commanders, as listed in the divisional articles.
Mode of operation: Exercise discernment, especially around well-tended articles or those that are GA or FA. In these instances, discuss any proposed content/source removal on the Talk page first.
Definitions:
Specific ations:
Should I ping the others – MisterBee, PeaceMaker, Hohum – to make sure we are all on the same page? K.e.coffman ( talk) 23:38, 9 December 2015 (UTC)
Thanks for your message about 11th SS Volunteer Panzergrenadier Division Nordland. The man to whom you refer has an article at Douglas Berneville-Claye.
"early March 1945 when he was appointed to the staff of the III (Germanic) SS Panzer Corps at Templin, dressed as a SS Hauptsturmführer. He was invited to dine with the III Corps commander, Obergruppenführer Felix Steiner, where he explained that although he was a captain in the Coldstream Guards and a member of the British peerage, "Lord Charlesworth", he was a firm anti-communist and had volunteered to fight to preserve Europe from the Communist threat. Apparently, he was so convincing that Steiner took him at face value. At that time, the remains of the British Free Corps were in the same area, and Steiner decided to appoint Claye to take charge of them. On 19 April 1945 he arrived at the Corps' base in Templin 'dressed in a black SS tank uniform bearing the insignia of Hauptsturmführer in the British Free Corps.' [1] Claye told the Corps members 'that he was the son of an earl, a captain in the Coldstream Guards and was going to collect two armoured cars and lead them against the Russians. He also guaranteed that the BFC men would be in no trouble with the British authorities, telling them that Britain would be at war with the Russians within a few days.'. [2] When the Corps members refused to follow him, Claye took Alexander MacKinnon, one of the Free Corps soldiers, [3] as a driver, and headed west in a stolen vehicle. He discarded his German uniform and surrendered to a British airborne unit somewhere west of Schwerin."
Am I (GT) right in thinking that the 11th SS Volunteer Panzergrenadier Division Nordland was a subdivision of the III (Germanic) SS Panzer Corps?
Adrian Weale's book 'Renegades' says that the BFC were in Dresden when the British bombing raid started on the evening of 12th February 1945, were soon afterwards arrested en masse because one of their members claimed to have prior knowledge of the raid, and then traveled from Dresden to Berlin on 24th February. Which certainly does not tie in with them fighting in present-day Poland on 16th and 17th February. I suggest deleting the statement that the BFC were involved in Operation Sonnenwende. Alekksandr ( talk) 20:31, 10 December 2015 (UTC)
References
Here's a beauty. 33rd Waffen Grenadier Division of the SS Charlemagne (1st French) I see K and Mr B have worked on it, but wording needs some improvement. Taking on that, trimming any peacocky stuff that may have escaped attention. It is also poorly, sparsely sourced, which is actually better than wading through a mass of crap. Irondome ( talk) 23:24, 9 December 2015 (UTC)
K.e.: this article was in pretty poor shape and your recent edits brought it back to my attention. It is getting in better shape but still needs work. It could use more details as to his time in the SS and his life. The quotes give some powerful information but there are too many of them. If you have the time maybe you can work on conveying the important points and pull out some of the long quotes. Wikipedia does not like articles to have too much copyright work in them. See WP:QUOTEFARM, for example. Anyway, I will not be able to edit too much this weekend as real life calls. Cheers, Kierzek ( talk) 16:16, 14 November 2015 (UTC)
Thank you for the correction - it's good to know. How do you then define Bender Publishing and other similar imprints that bear the author's name? I was curious about them. Do they fall under the category of 'small presses', similar to Schiffer Publishing? K.e.coffman ( talk) 18:38, 15 December 2015 (UTC)
![]() |
The WikiProject Barnstar | |
For "diligence and work on checking into unsourced claims and non-NPOV language of World War II and Waffen-SS related articles," I have the honor of awarding you this WikiProject Barnstar as an honorable mention in the Military History Newcomer of the Year 2015 vote. For the Military history WikiProject, TomStar81 ( Talk) 02:33, 22 December 2015 (UTC) |
It would be more beneficial, helpful, friendly, courteous and kind if you would start citing the information instead of deleting everything you come across. Thanks MisterBee1966 ( talk) 12:51, 28 December 2015 (UTC)
![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
I was a bit slow in my response yesterday, I have family pressure to spend time dealing with real world problems. Wikipedia must be put on the back burner. Unfortunately most Wikipedians must depend on Google books which limits the quality of the content. To compound matters Wikipedia can become a battleground for ethnic warriors. -- Woogie10w ( talk) 10:51, 30 November 2015 (UTC)
Hi! You mentioned that axishistory.org is not a reliable source. I was just wondering what page I made that edit to so I can revert it for you. Thanks:) Thomasnetrpm ( talk) 19:14, 3 December 2015 (UTC)
G'day K.e.coffman, I have seen that you have placed a number of {{cn}} tags on 11th SS Volunteer Panzergrenadier Division Nordland and others. I see you also put a {{refimprove}} on the former article as well. In case you didn't know, it is completely unnecessary to tag every uncited paragraph with a {{cn}} when the whole article has been tagged for reference improvement. Thanks, Peacemaker67 ( crack... thump) 01:45, 5 December 2015 (UTC)
Hi, I'm unclear why you removed all 3 links to relevant websites in Panzer Division Jüterbog, as I used them to validate the order of battle. Maybe I forgot to add relevant citations... would adding these address any concerns you may have? Regards, DPdH ( talk) 02:49, 5 December 2015 (UTC)
Some acceptable links include those that contain further research that is accurate and on-topic, information that could not be added to the article for reasons such as copyright or amount of detail, or other meaningful, relevant content that is not suitable for inclusion in an article for reasons unrelated to its accuracy. Some external links are welcome (see § What can normally be linked), but it is not Wikipedia's purpose to include a lengthy or comprehensive list of external links related to each topic. No page should be linked from a Wikipedia article unless its inclusion is justifiable according to this guideline and common sense. The burden of providing this justification is on the person who wants to include an external link.
Hello, you appear to be removing fprado, armorsite and axis history as references from multiple articles. I don't think this is helpful. These sites provide their own sources at the bottom of their pages. If you think they are unreliable, I think it would be better to mark this with tags (like {{unreliable source?}}, and/or check the sources they use as references and use those instead, if appropriate. You are also sometimes removing the text they support - you should only do this if you think the text is actually wrong, rather than badly supported. ( Hohum @) 16:41, 5 December 2015 (UTC)
Thank you for your comment on my talk page about Lulu's unreliability. I actually agree with you. The reason why I had added reference to this source to List of members of the British Free Corps was in order to point out the errors therein. I feel that, where there is incorrect information on a topic circulating around the web, Wikipedia can perform a valuable function in correcting it (with reliable sources, of course!). Alekksandr ( talk) 20:17, 5 December 2015 (UTC)
G'day, sorry but there appears to be some sort of misunderstanding about what should be deleted on WP, and I just want to clarify it before this gets too far down the track. If someone has added material to an article (and WP:BLP]] doesn't apply) and it hasn't been cited, then you have a few options. If that is the case with quite a bit of the article, you can place a {{refimprove}} tag at the top, but don't use a {{cn}} tag on every uncited paragraph. If you reasonably suspect a particular bit of information is dubious, you might use the {{dubious}} tag, or in the same situation, you might use the {{cn}} tag. But some material being in an article for years without a citation is not justification for its wholesale deletion. It may in fact be entirely correct, and you are not helping to build the encyclopedia (however flawed it may be) by just deleting such material. On a positive note, IMHO it is good that you are deleting citations from unreliable bloggy sources like axishistory and feldgrau. But just because material is sourced to them doesn't mean it is wrong. Thanks, Peacemaker67 ( crack... thump) 02:33, 5 December 2015 (UTC)
- During 1941, the Heer officers in charge of the deployment of the SS Division "Wiking" were sceptical of its fighting abilities and so were hesitant to commit it to any major actions. As the division proved itself again and again in combat, it began to earn the grudging respect of the Heer commanders.
- During its first action, near Tarnopol in Galicia, Ukraine, the division acquitted itself well.
- "Nordland"'s assault soon bogged down, as the soldiers realised that not only were they outnumbered by the Red Army, but the latter were also well entrenched in prepared positions. Within thirty minutes, almost half of the men of the regiment had fallen. Despite this, they still captured the hill.
- Several combat units were reduced to only dozens of men, and as a veteran later wrote, "Casualties weren't counted any more, just men left alive."
- By now the division had gained a reputation as an elite formation.
- Erich von Manstein threw 5 SS "Wiking" and the 11th Panzer-Division into action against the Soviet Mobile Group Popov, which was threatening to break through to the vital rail line. 5 SS "Wiking" had great difficulty dealing with the armour-heavy Soviet formation. The Panzergrenadier regiments of 5 SS "Wiking" were exhausted and understrength from the fighting in the Caucasus. Despite this, the division held off the Soviet assault, protecting the vital rail line and helping bring about the destruction of Mobile Group "Popov".
- His replacement was Herbert Otto Gille, who was to prove himself Steiner's equal.
- The 5 SS "Wiking" was engaged against the forces near Kharkov, with the Estonians acquitting themselves well, destroying around 100 Red Army tanks over several days.
- In subsequent fighting, the SS divisions defeated two Soviet tank armies (totaling over 1,000 tanks), destroying over 800 of them. At no time did the SS divisions have any more than 50 panzers in working order.
- It was the subject of ridicule by many "Wiking" veterans until they proved their worth in the fighting for a forest near Teklino, at the head of a salient into the Soviet lines.
- After repulsing all Soviet attempts to break through near the town of Novaya-Buda, the 5 SS "Wiking" rearguard split up and began withdrawing under cover of darkness. Advancing through "Hell's Gate", the "Wiking" came under heavy fire. The division suffered heavy losses in men and materials during the carnage of the Korsun Pocket. Gille, the Divisional commander, had proven his loyalty to his men, fighting alongside them and remaining in action until all survivors had escaped. He was one of the last to cross the Gniloy Tikich River to safety.
- Nicolussi Leck immediately launched an attack with five tanks. Soon after beginning the assault, he received a radio message from the besieged commander to halt his attack and withdraw. Leck ordered his radio operator to ignore the call, and continue with the attack.
- A heavy battle ensued, with the "Wiking" and the "Totenkopf" seeing many of the Red Army tanks destroyed. In three days, the two formations had driven 45 kilometres over rugged terrain, over half the distance from their start point to Budapest. The Soviets manoeuvred forces to block the advance, and they barely managed to halt the Germans at Bicske, only 28 kilometres from Budapest.
- In atrocious conditions, the "Wiking" advanced south towards Budapest.
- Despite the operation's success, it had been overextended and were vulnerable to attack, unable to exploit its breakthrough and eventually ordered to pull back and regroup. Hitler was furious at the lack of progress, and called the operation 'utterly pointless'.
- Acting quickly, Balck recommended moving the I SS Panzer Corps north to plug the gap and prevent the encirclement of the IV SS Panzer Corps. Despite this quick thinking, a Führer Order authorising this move was slow in coming.
- Desperate, Balck threw the veteran 9th SS Panzer Division "Hohenstaufen" into the area to hold open the small exit.
I was asked to comment on this discussion on my talk page by K.e.coffman. Given the amount of fanboy nonsense in articles on the Waffen-SS, I think that there's a solid case for removing dubious-looking and unreferenced material, and then rebuilding the article. Regarding the material in question it looks like a mix of stuff which I think should be removed (eg, "During 1941, the Heer officers in charge of the deployment of the SS Division "Wiking" were sceptical of its fighting abilities and so were hesitant to commit it to any major actions. As the division proved itself again and again in combat, it began to earn the grudging respect of the Heer commanders.") and material which could be left for now (eg, most of the para starting with "In the first week of November 1942, the division was transferred from the Terek bend"). Nick-D ( talk) 05:58, 5 December 2015 (UTC)
K.e.: A few things to remember - grammar footnote: German language nouns, even common nouns, are always capitalized; further one is to use italics for phrases in other languages and for isolated foreign words that are not currently used in English, per WP:MOS. So, please do not revert when properly used in an article. And if you have reverted isolated foreign words (German) in certain articles I have not seen, then please revert back, accordingly. Here is one of the recent times this was discussed, [1], even though it was not the main issue. BTW-some books shown on Google Books preview shows ranks not in italics for certain books, but in the print edition in Stein's book "The Waffen-SS: Hitler's Elite Guard at War 1939–1945", for example, which I have, German SS ranks are in italics. Thanks, Kierzek ( talk) 22:51, 7 December 2015 (UTC)
I am going through units and individuals to cut any grotesque puffery. Some of the stuff reads like the worst of The Forgotten Soldier. 12th SS looks fairly sane, but will work through it and others. Knights cross holders bios are fairly bad at the moment. I will not be directly removing sources, merely cutting the more self-pitying rubbish that appears to be the Neo-Nazi idea of literary style. I think we should co-ordinate. Regards Irondome ( talk) 03:30, 9 December 2015 (UTC)
This would probably be a good place to start for the units: List of Waffen-SS divisions. And here for Waffen-SS generals: Obergruppenführer They are probably the most prominent ones, as commanders or large units, book authors, etc. What do you think? K.e.coffman ( talk) 04:19, 9 December 2015 (UTC)
@ Irondome: Some further thoughts following the inputs by others. Coincidentally, I posted a similar message on Nick-D's page, and his suggestion was perhaps posting to the MilHist discussion board -- WT:MILHIST -- asking for help. What do you think? It may help to define the parameters of the clean-up.
I think that at the very least both non-NPOV language and dubious unsourced claims (destroyed 100 tanks; annihilated an enemy division; led from the front; etc) should be removed. Where we may need to get consensus from other members is what to do with "dubious claims sourced to dubious tertiary sources" i.e. Axishistory, feldgrau, etc. as well as various articles, which in turn cite from divisional histories/memoirs written by former Waffen-SS members. (That's a major issue on Div Hitlerjugend's page, where Latimer quotes from Meyer, and Latimer's article has over 20 refs in the page.) Separately, we need to discuss what to do with dubious claims sourced to works by various SS admirers, such as Yerger, Williamson, Agte, (others?), etc. BTW, I did get feedback from the RSN on Atge; but need to decide what to do with the claims the Agte source supports. IMO, they should go; while another view may be to not remove statements, but look for better sources. (However, with the scope of this project, I don't see how the latter is feasible).
BTW, while copy-editing Williamson's article, I came across a review of his The SS: Hitler's Instrument of Terror from AxisHistory.com. The review has eerie similarities to the language and tone I've been encountering on the Waffen-SS unit and commander pages: "Holding the Line", desperate defensive battles, "The Birth of the SS", "Forged in Combat", infamous (this word appears 4 times in the review), military exploits; also notice "even" in "even the Waffen-SS committed crimes". So even via a 3-rd party review, it looks (?) like all of these articles have been sourced from somewhere very close to Williamson's rendering of the Waffen-SS.
Separately, while the divisional list is good, I now think that Obergruppenführer is too high of a level to start with for personnel, and it also catches SD, Gestapo, etc. An option, instead, could be to look at "Commanders" in the infoblock ( example) or "Commanders" sections in the divisional article, such as here. (I believe that's how I came across Witt/Meyer/Wunsche.) As the higher ranking officers, they may be good for the first pass at the personnel articles. What do you think? And please let me know about posting to MilHist. K.e.coffman ( talk) 21:08, 9 December 2015 (UTC)
Dubious claims defined as those that are potentially unverifiable or that make a strong statement that needs to be cited to meet WP's requirement for verifiability/reliability: Lead from the front; annihilated an enemy division; destroyed 100 tanks; was instrumental in the victory; repulsed all attacks; etc.
Non-controversial statements defined as those that are potentially verifiable: unit movements; unit order of battle; fact of a decoration; participation in an operation; date of birth/death; date of promotion; date of surrender; etc.
Okay, I will take 1 through 4; that will be a big improvement. Can we throw in the External links too? :-) I'm reading in WP:EXT:
Some acceptable links include those that contain further research that is accurate and on-topic, information that could not be added to the article for reasons such as copyright or amount of detail, or other meaningful, relevant content that is not suitable for inclusion in an article for reasons unrelated to its accuracy.
The examples given (axishistory; panzerace; etc) are not known for their accuracy, IMO.
I also agree on discernment. For high-profile or well-tended articles, we could take any content/source removal to the Talk page first, rather than editing outright. One of my outstanding items of this nature it to close out on Peiper/Agte. In any case, for virtue of being high-profile articles, the major issues we are discussing here should be pretty infrequent. Does this sound good? K.e.coffman ( talk) 23:11, 9 December 2015 (UTC)
Here's the outcome from the Waffen-SS and Individual Articles discussion above:
Project scope: Initial scope will be Waffen-SS divisions and Waffen-SS divisional commanders, as listed in the divisional articles.
Mode of operation: Exercise discernment, especially around well-tended articles or those that are GA or FA. In these instances, discuss any proposed content/source removal on the Talk page first.
Definitions:
Specific ations:
Should I ping the others – MisterBee, PeaceMaker, Hohum – to make sure we are all on the same page? K.e.coffman ( talk) 23:38, 9 December 2015 (UTC)
Thanks for your message about 11th SS Volunteer Panzergrenadier Division Nordland. The man to whom you refer has an article at Douglas Berneville-Claye.
"early March 1945 when he was appointed to the staff of the III (Germanic) SS Panzer Corps at Templin, dressed as a SS Hauptsturmführer. He was invited to dine with the III Corps commander, Obergruppenführer Felix Steiner, where he explained that although he was a captain in the Coldstream Guards and a member of the British peerage, "Lord Charlesworth", he was a firm anti-communist and had volunteered to fight to preserve Europe from the Communist threat. Apparently, he was so convincing that Steiner took him at face value. At that time, the remains of the British Free Corps were in the same area, and Steiner decided to appoint Claye to take charge of them. On 19 April 1945 he arrived at the Corps' base in Templin 'dressed in a black SS tank uniform bearing the insignia of Hauptsturmführer in the British Free Corps.' [1] Claye told the Corps members 'that he was the son of an earl, a captain in the Coldstream Guards and was going to collect two armoured cars and lead them against the Russians. He also guaranteed that the BFC men would be in no trouble with the British authorities, telling them that Britain would be at war with the Russians within a few days.'. [2] When the Corps members refused to follow him, Claye took Alexander MacKinnon, one of the Free Corps soldiers, [3] as a driver, and headed west in a stolen vehicle. He discarded his German uniform and surrendered to a British airborne unit somewhere west of Schwerin."
Am I (GT) right in thinking that the 11th SS Volunteer Panzergrenadier Division Nordland was a subdivision of the III (Germanic) SS Panzer Corps?
Adrian Weale's book 'Renegades' says that the BFC were in Dresden when the British bombing raid started on the evening of 12th February 1945, were soon afterwards arrested en masse because one of their members claimed to have prior knowledge of the raid, and then traveled from Dresden to Berlin on 24th February. Which certainly does not tie in with them fighting in present-day Poland on 16th and 17th February. I suggest deleting the statement that the BFC were involved in Operation Sonnenwende. Alekksandr ( talk) 20:31, 10 December 2015 (UTC)
References
Here's a beauty. 33rd Waffen Grenadier Division of the SS Charlemagne (1st French) I see K and Mr B have worked on it, but wording needs some improvement. Taking on that, trimming any peacocky stuff that may have escaped attention. It is also poorly, sparsely sourced, which is actually better than wading through a mass of crap. Irondome ( talk) 23:24, 9 December 2015 (UTC)
K.e.: this article was in pretty poor shape and your recent edits brought it back to my attention. It is getting in better shape but still needs work. It could use more details as to his time in the SS and his life. The quotes give some powerful information but there are too many of them. If you have the time maybe you can work on conveying the important points and pull out some of the long quotes. Wikipedia does not like articles to have too much copyright work in them. See WP:QUOTEFARM, for example. Anyway, I will not be able to edit too much this weekend as real life calls. Cheers, Kierzek ( talk) 16:16, 14 November 2015 (UTC)
Thank you for the correction - it's good to know. How do you then define Bender Publishing and other similar imprints that bear the author's name? I was curious about them. Do they fall under the category of 'small presses', similar to Schiffer Publishing? K.e.coffman ( talk) 18:38, 15 December 2015 (UTC)
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The WikiProject Barnstar | |
For "diligence and work on checking into unsourced claims and non-NPOV language of World War II and Waffen-SS related articles," I have the honor of awarding you this WikiProject Barnstar as an honorable mention in the Military History Newcomer of the Year 2015 vote. For the Military history WikiProject, TomStar81 ( Talk) 02:33, 22 December 2015 (UTC) |
It would be more beneficial, helpful, friendly, courteous and kind if you would start citing the information instead of deleting everything you come across. Thanks MisterBee1966 ( talk) 12:51, 28 December 2015 (UTC)