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Thanks for thoroughly checking this article. I didn't have access to Krause 2004, so I let it pass on good faith. Maybe I shouldn't have. QVVERTYVS ( hm?) 09:59, 18 August 2014 (UTC)
Hello Jytdog I note you've again edited this article, despite having on the MDann52 talk page undertaken not to do so. This is your right of course, but you've also made edits which you neither drew attention to or gave reasons for in either your edit summary or within the comments you made on the article talk page. I've mentioned and responded to these edits in the section you created on the article talk page entitled "edits by MDann52"
I also note you've now expressed a willingness to compromise with other editors, and this of course is very welcome. Please see the aforementioned article talk page section, where you'll see I've added a response suggesting a compromise edit which hopefully deals with the issues that you did mention in your edit summary. Thanks for this - it would be good if this matter can be resolved, and it does appear some progress is now being made towards this. Best wishes, UK1000 ( talk) 16:28, 6 September 2014 (UTC)
Your comments are unfortunately again condescending and confrontational, as well as inconsistent with the discussion on the article talk page which, along with your disregard for both basic courtesy and Wikipedia policies (as suggested by the frequent reverting of your edits not by myself but by very experienced Wikipedia editors) is plain on the article talk page to see. Thanks however for your input. UK1000 ( talk) 22:05, 10 September 2014 (UTC)
Ok, would you please reframe it? There were some changes from "God" to "YHWH". The point of course is that we have one pov editor who wants to change it all, and an RfC seems the best way to deal with it. Dougweller ( talk) 13:12, 20 August 2014 (UTC)
Everything I posted on the talk page was accurate. I would be happy to source anything you believe erroneous reliably. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.66.215.166 ( talk) 00:49, 20 August 2014 (UTC)
I have a fondness for the new-fangled King James Old Testament transliterations; they certainly have their place. But in many cases I prefer the old classical Greco-Latin transliterations found in the Vulgate derived translations (and the KJV New Testament and Apocrypha), not because they are more accurate (They are not!), but because they are dignified by age, and because their classical endings are cool. So I prefer Elias to Elijah, Tobias to Tobit, Core to Korah, Jesus to Yeshua (or Joshua). To say nothing of Cyclops for Kuklops, Cyrus to Kuros, Dinosaur to Deinosauros, etc. ad nauseam.
But my preference is neither here or there. It is important to have the classical transliterations, even when they have fallen out use in modern English, because they are used in the older pre-KJV translations of the Bible, as well as in current translations in the Romance languages, where the classical transliterations have never gone out of fashion. The fact that they are obscure now, makes it more necessary, not less, to include them, so that readers who stumble across these mystifying names can find them on Wikipedia. There is now a page called Nohestan that redirects to Nehushtan, and a pet peeve of mine is to get redirected to page and find nothing about the actual term I typed in. I will grant you that in this case, it will be clear to any educated reader than Nehushtan must be a variant of Nohestan, but not all readers are educated, and anyway, what's the harm?
Thanks. Rwflammang ( talk) 23:59, 25 August 2014 (UTC)
I'm new to editing Wikipedia but I do know a lot of random triva and have a relatively good grasp of the English language. I found out about Advisorshares from the history on Philippe Cousteau Jr.'s page after I saw something on the news about Philippe Cousteau Jr. coming to Iceland. I don't have any conflict of interest with AdvisorShares. They do not operate in my country. I explained in other posts that I am not the "ETFCanadian" and no one has yet proved otherwise. However, I do kind of have an adversion to people who try to hide the truth and deceive others. While I do not want to generalize or stereotype, there are a lot of people like this in the financial sector as anyone from Iceland knows.
I don't see why the stories and links about Advisorshares need to be hidden. From my knowledge there is freedom of speech in the US and you don't have crazy libel laws like in the UK. Plus the information that has been deleted is not libeling anyone, it is just restatement of facts as they were reported by journalist, judges and others. I do not want to get to a confrontation with you. It is against my nature. I would just like to know: Why does any negative but true information about a US financial company need to be hidden from the public? If it's not true or biased can't someone just make an argument for the opposite side? If you have a good reason, I would love to hear it! Icelandicgolfer ( talk) 00:16, 24 August 2014 (UTC)
I noticed your edit here. I think the previous version, saying Midrash, is also correct. The Midrash is also part of the Oral tradition. And if you meant to say that this text is referring specifically to halakhic traditions, which in itself I wouldn't agree with, then there are halakhic midrashim as well. In addition, the Mishnah is part of the Talmud, so after your change "Mishnah and Talmud" is a little overdoing things. In short, unless you have an additional argument, I'd like to restore Midrash and Talmud. Debresser ( talk) 15:50, 31 August 2014 (UTC)
Please advise me if I have a COI in editing pages concerning agriculture and specifically those with organic and related sustainability topics. I do research in developing an alternative agricultural model. I am not paid by anyone to do this research, and it is completely funded by the sales of tomatoes and peppers from my test plots. (I have 2 test plots. 1 is ~1/10th an acre and the other is ~1 acre.) I receive absolutely no outside funding from any industry or government, neither the organic industry nor the conventional industry. The produce is not certified organic. However:
The trials using the methods I am developing use these 10 principles:
In the past I have worked in conventional agriculture, however that was over 30 years ago. So I doubt that is a COI either.
I honestly don't feel like there is a COI either way, since while I did make a living in conventional ag years ago, that was long past, and the trials I do now are not making me a living, any income simply funds the trials. But I am inexperienced with certain details about WIKI so I defer to your judgement and will be happy to post a COI if you think it is needed. If my trials end up being successful in scaling up to full size, then there could potentially be profits that might be needing to be disclosed. That hasn't happened yet, and might not ever happen. Redddbaron ( talk) 19:05, 29 August 2014 (UTC)
Nice work on Organic food. Well done. bobrayner ( talk) 19:23, 31 August 2014 (UTC)
I appreciate the work you are doing, but it is not correct to say that it was "one of the most contaminated..... until its remediation". It almost certainly still is one of the most contaminated sites , but now its got a concrete cap on it. The cap may well limit the surface drainage issues but the contaminants remain inside the site and available to the wider world when the concrete degrades or when the leachate finds its way out through the ground-water. Regards Velella Velella Talk 11:55, 2 September 2014 (UTC)
on the issues raised at User_talk:2over0#Bit_of_a_tiff_about_a_source. This isn't meant as, or to be construed as, canvassing because it's about a simple matter of fact, which I'm asking you about because you're scientifically literate and objective. I've asked a couple other clueful users, who I trust to be objective, to comment as well. Thanks! regards, Middle 8 ( POV-pushing • COI) 17:30, 2 September 2014 (UTC)
Huh... I made it from "BlankMap-World-large", which is in wikimedia commons, so there's no copyright. Info used from their webpage is also available everywhere else (news pages, see links), so there's no copyright either. That's just a list of countries. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Le Déchaîné ( talk • contribs) 14:34, 3 September 2014 (UTC)
Hi Jytdog, i think the recent edit at Z is notable, however the article will likely never be accurate in patient anamnesis/physical examination/diagnosis. -- prokaryotes ( talk) 21:44, 3 September 2014 (UTC)
Appreciated your thoughtful comments as always (it is always especially fun to hear thoughful comments about myself ;-) ). Based on your feedback, and Guy's and others particularly at my COI/N, I rewrote it, FWIW: User:Middle_8/COI. cheers, -- Middle 8 ( POV-pushing • COI) 08:08, 4 September 2014 (UTC)
Jytdog - I see there's a bit of an edit war taking place on Biofuel. Reviewing edit history, it appears to me that you're correct about AesopSmart / Whoisjoking is engaging in sock use. Further, it appears that AesopWise may also be a sock. Do you know how this is best handled?-- E8 ( talk) 16:28, 7 September 2014 (UTC)
@ Jytdog:, Shalom! Persecution of Jews in Arab lands was not limited to the Almohads of Spain or North Africa. It was also prevalent in Yemen, where the Mawza Exile is sketched deep in the sub-conscious of every Yemenite Jew, and even described in the Jewish Encyclopedia and in many other Hebrew writings. Jews were scattered throughout the Diaspora, and, as in many other places, persecution of Jews in Yemen also had its dark periods. I wish to cordially make one correction in what I was wrongly accused of doing, namely, of WP:EDITWARRING. This is certainly not true in my case, as I can prove forthrightly. When my first edit was deleted, the reason given was that it lacked sources. I then reposted the edit, with a reference to the source. Then I was told that the sources were not adequate enough, so I changed the sources, bringing down better sources, and merging my edit with the previous editor's edit - without diminishing aught from the previous edit. Still my newest edit was deleted. Is there no place here for mentioning the sufferings of the Jews of Yemen in the 17th century? Davidbena ( talk) 01:10, 8 September 2014 (UTC)
Hello. This message is being sent to inform you that there is currently a discussion involving you at
Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Edit warring regarding a possible violation of Wikipedia's policy on
edit warring. Thank you. — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
Blacksun1942 (
talk •
contribs)
20:59, 11 September 2014 (UTC)
Try looking at their other
. No discussion is really necessary...please revert.
—
Berean Hunter
(talk)
22:45, 8 September 2014 (UTC)
thanks everybody, interesting discussion. Jytdog ( talk) 20:46, 11 September 2014 (UTC)
Hi Jytdog. I wanted to let you know that I opened an incident report on EllenCT at the administrator's noticeboard. This isn't a request for comment (although you're welcome to if you want), but rather just letting you know since you spent quite a bit of time and effort trying to help Ellen out and that I cited some of your talk page responses. Thanks. Kingofaces43 ( talk) 09:34, 16 September 2014 (UTC)
I would like some guidance relating to the Interleukin 2 page. You continue to revert my edits, which come directly from Dr. Robert Gallo. What am I doing wrong? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Harryhammel ( talk • contribs) 14:02, 2 October 2014 (UTC
And who are you? ( Kasmith ( talk) 15:16, 5 October 2014 (UTC))
Relying on secondary and tertiary references to be more "true" than primary references because the "community" has presumably vetted them is fallacious. Please read ( http://journal.frontiersin.org/Journal/10.3389/fimmu.2013.00079/full), which goes into the "hidden agendas" that many review authors have used, and how it corrupts our literature and the field. ( Kasmith ( talk) 19:56, 6 October 2014 (UTC)).
This issue is essentially about how new knowledge is acquired, how it's veracity is established and how it is reported to the public. How does one know what is "true"? ( Kasmith ( talk) 17:43, 7 October 2014 (UTC))
Could you please take a few minutes to consider the following?
My intention is to have a fair and accurate representation of the fluoridation controversy. To that end, I have read publications from the 30s, 40s, 50s, 60, and 70s as well as more current material. I’ve read over a thousand pages. It is hard to pull a few pages out of context, but I identified a few pages in 3 of those resources for which I’d appreciate your feedback.
Item 1
This entire excerpt is wonderful, but back up to Chapter 1 in this 2010 book to look at Tables 1, 2 and 3. Also read the section “WHO says so” which focuses on studies from all decades.
http://books.google.com/books?id=KPn4AwAAQBAJ&pg=PT153&lpg=PT153&dq=books+by+philip+sutton+fluoride&source=bl&ots=lhg0T_8ZrG&sig=RMdFFYKnJgIVimwtfrf49fbtw9U&hl=en&sa=X&ei=P-gcVNjZD9edygTl2YDYDQ&ved=0CDIQ6AEwBjgK#v=onepage&q=books%20by%20philip%20sutton%20fluoride&f=false
Item 2 The 1960 book by Philip R.N. Sutton is entirely based on the analysis of the initial studies. He was a statistician and didn't have a POV regarding fluoridation, just the way the trials were conducted. I don't know whether you'd want to read the entire book, but it at least proves that there were objections based on something other than "communists" in the 1950s. I've included a couple of shorter options, below. He was cited in the 2010 book above.
Item 3"'
The first 250 pages in The Great Dilemma (1978) are primarily science, and I found them fascinating. Sections, mostly clinical notes on patients, are reprinted from Waldbott’s 1965 book.
George Waldbott was an internationally recognized allergist and research scientist who first identified penicillin allergies, human anaphylactic shock and the connection between what was then called idiopathic asthma and smoking.
You can find these references on www dot whale dot to /b/Waldbott_DILEMMA_ocr.pdf
Excerpt, p 380:
“For nearly a decade after 1931, the PHS sought to remove excessive fluoride from water supplies because of endemic mottled teeth. But after 1940, the balance began to tilt in the opposite direction - to augment water supplies with fluoride. On the basis of studies on a very small number of healthy young men, plus limited surveys of health effect in natural fluoride areas, PHS scientists concluded that fluoride had no significant adverse effect on health, except for occasional mild mottling….. “
Item 4 A short 2005 article from the Journal of American Physicians and Surgeons re science & controversy: http://www.jpands.org/vol10no2/kauffman.pdf
Again, my purpose is to have a fair and unbiased Wikipedia representation of the fluoridation controversy. As it stands, it is incomplete and inaccurate. I thought perhaps bringing it to your talk page would be more appropriate. Thank you.
Seabreezes1 ( talk) 18:21, 22 September 2014 (UTC)
You may be interested in this candidate for deletion. My listing it for deletion today prompted an editor to double its size from 13 words to 26; you may some views on its merits or possibilities. It seems to me you have the notable aspect of the subject covered in the casein article. BlackCab ( TALK) 13:47, 24 September 2014 (UTC)
The two of you need to stop edit warring. You do not own this article. The edit I made is better sourced and updated. It makes more sense and makes things very clear to the reader. This isn't about you and Gandydancer. Stop! Thanks. SW3 5DL ( talk) 23:06, 27 September 2014 (UTC)
Jytdog, what medical journals do you read regularly? If any? -- Nbauman ( talk) 00:50, 28 September 2014 (UTC)
first, removing sources that fail MEDRS and content based on them from a health-related article is not disruptive. we have to do that all the time, when editors get overenthusiastic digging into primary sources. Second... i do acknowledge that there are a lot of people who feel that the pharma/biotech industries are corrupt and corrupting and yes one can read endless books and articles about that. I have acknowledged that all along, i believe. And I have said, several times, that all these editors are still in the business of medical publishing, and these articles continue to be published, and they continue to serve their purpose. The real world is what I am holding up against you, to say that the broad brush strokes you have painted with, just do not correspond to what the mainstream is actually doing every day. Going through Horton's 10 points:
All that adds up to "yep there are some problems". Not the broad brush strokes you painted. And as I have said several times, it is the broad brush that makes it FRINGE in my eyes; it just a matter of lack of moderation, of too much black and white. Jytdog ( talk) 09:47, 28 September 2014 (UTC)
Dear Jytdog, Would you let me talk to you for a moment. When a great scientist is working on a difficult problem, does he just know the answer. Does he take a stance and guard it or does he refuse to take a permanent stance and flow with the tide of the latest research. Which strategies do great reasoners with great courage use to stand up for what is right and thereby gain the respect of their peers for generations?
I think it is easiest to define a good scientist by objectively measurable qualities and leave the subjective stuff to the arts & individual spirituality. Modern science has produced Multiple Intelligence Theory as an objective way of defining the ways people can be intelligent in different areas. Sometimes scientists are very highly developed in many lines but have difficulty noticing their blind spots because they haven't had a friend introduce them to Multiple Intelligences Theory, and many people are uncomfortable adopting continues on with medieval stereotypes about biomedical subjects.
In the very near future, a good way for us to assess our scientists' balance of these different intelligences would be for them to, simply, take a multiple intelligences test online. Won't it be amazing when scientists everywhere realize that the tools to hone their own minds and their own self-awareness exist only seconds away? Even more incredible is how widespread understanding of the scientific method is. Truly science is making great progress in understanding nature right now. It's even bizarre because so often we learn something a year ago or ten years ago and that idea has already been made obsolete.
I just want to THANK YOU for your efforts in maintaining scientific rigor and being a truly amazing, humble contributor who's always willing to question archaic ideas. Thanks Jytdog, Boleroinferno ( talk) 13:59, 28 September 2014 (UTC)
Hello. This message is being sent to inform you that there is currently a discussion involving you at
Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Edit warring regarding a possible violation of Wikipedia's policy on
edit warring. Thank you.
SW3 5DL (
talk)
23:45, 27 September 2014 (UTC)
In vitro activity against bacteria does not make the citation medical in nature, so far it is more biological. So at that stage where medical application / activity is not yet concerned, I believe a primary source may be feasible wrt. MEDRS. Think of action as a food preservative etc. The src was from a food science article. 70.137.135.214 ( talk) 09:28, 1 October 2014 (UTC) Also think of an unwanted action, maybe shared with synthetic derivatives, as a biocide, acting on beneficial or symbiotic bacteria. Would still not be medical in nature. 70.137.135.214 ( talk) 10:11, 1 October 2014 (UTC)
What's your next step? Waiting if the editor got the message, Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement, or something else? -- NeilN talk to me 23:52, 2 October 2014 (UTC)
User:Jytdog, Hi. There is a question about what is considered worthy or not worthy of publishing on a WP article page in terms of photos because of what may or may not be perceived by others as distasteful (bad taste). The editor, User "PacificWarrior101," who has lately been joined by User "Amire80," have posted a Commons photograph of Israeli singer and transgender, Dana International, a photograph which I personally feel shows bad taste and tends to "flout" the dignity and self-respect of the Yemenite Jewish people. I voiced my concerns to the editor about my feelings of repugnancy evoked by the picture on a main article page, Yemenite Jews, that treats on ethnicity and, to a large extent, the history of Yemenite Jews. Most Yemenite Jews will feel a sense of shame by seeing this photo of "Dana International" on the page that speaks specifically about them as a people - and who, by the way, are mostly conservative to religious. While I have no personal problems about discussing issues of transgender, here the matter is different. Dana International's photograph on the main page of an article which treats on ethnicity is tantamount to putting up an image of the serial killer "Son of Sam" (David Berkowitz) on the ethnicity page, Jews. Or, let's say, a photo of Israeli troops shooting at an Arab child, on a page which speaks on Israeli ethnicity. There should be a place for common considerations as for what is tactful and what is not, particularly when the photo is controversial and evokes shame. See the Talk page on Yemenite Jews, and the sub-section: "Flouting an Ethnic Group." Any advice by you will be much appreciated. Davidbena ( talk) 19:30, 29 September 2014 (UTC)
Fascinating essays on your userpage!
Have you ever watched the show Penn & Teller: Bullshit! ?
— Cirt ( talk) 02:14, 2 October 2014 (UTC)
Please remove the mention of an email from SW3's talk page since as you know I did not send any emails to you (or anyone else, as far as that goes). Perhaps it does not bother you to see it used to add to his poor characterization of me, but it does matter to me. Thanks. Gandydancer ( talk) 20:50, 3 October 2014 (UTC)
Jytdog, please don't come back to my talk page. Unfortunately, neither of you have made constructive comments there and as I said on my last post, that conversation has ended. SW3 5DL ( talk) 01:02, 4 October 2014 (UTC)
accuse people of adding material that they did not add, such as "Your content, " Still other publications appear as advertising disguised as science." is reverted because it violates the policy," at Talk:Sugar_beet. If you stopped to think a little more it might seep through to you that the reason these pages get so much controversy is because you are inhibiting discussion of points that people don't understand. But I've had enough of your don't-dare-to-discuss-these-matters-because-I- own-the-pages attitude and will not discuss this further. Good bye. Please do not edit my talk page, and I won't edit yours again. Sminthopsis84 ( talk) 17:36, 4 October 2014 (UTC)
Nothing personal, and if I believed it to be racist, I would be the first to expunge it. - Roxy the dog™ ( resonate) 00:04, 7 October 2014 (UTC)
There is currently a discussion at
Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. Thank you.
EllenCT (
talk)
06:23, 7 October 2014 (UTC)
![]() |
The Barnstar of Integrity | |
for diffusive and even-handed input in editor disputes DocumentError ( talk) 02:46, 6 October 2014 (UTC) |
Thanks for your patient work at Environmental impact of hydraulic fracturing, defending use of secondary and WP:MEDRS. A well-deserved barnstar! Cheers, Pete Tillman ( talk) 02:11, 10 October 2014 (UTC)
Mayday. I almost had convulsions when I read "3D printers to create synthetic life" in Craig Venter. I want to hit delete so badly I but want you to be my wing-man and keep me cool. BatteryIncluded ( talk) 13:43, 12 October 2014 (UTC)
Thanks for reverting all my changes, and bringing the wiki page for 'Biomedical Engineering' back to the condition that it was in. The talk page clearly said: "If you can improve it, please do." linking to the wiki article: /info/en/?search=Wikipedia:Be_bold And that is what I did.
I did not contribute based on "original research" or "non-verified" work (the reasons that you have cited while reverting the edits). All the information was from IEEE EMBS page, which was referenced right at the beginning of the section of Subdisciplines. This page needed huge improvements, and I spent huge amount of my time trying to do that. And I had clearly mentioned in comments that this still needs more work. It was in no way complete; it still needed references, more information under each subdiscipline, etc. What I had done was created a starting template (what you called an essay) for more people to come and contribute, because clearly there were lot such offers in Talk page before, but either disinterest or politics did not let those efforts materialize.
I can guarantee you that the edits reflected the wide field of BME much more than what it is right now. I had not deleted anything significant from what was already there. If you really think you are the guardian of this page, I highly suggest that you improve it. Thanks! A Proud Biomedical Engineer - Craziwiki ( talk) 20:14, 12 October 2014 (UTC)
I wanted to talk about your recent deletion at The Federalist (website). I don't understand how this is a WP:BLP issue? Yes RfC on the entry into Neil deGrasse Tyson's bio page has not been decided yet. But it isn't for reasons of verifiability. Neil deGrasse Tyson himself explicitly said: "But I was wrong about when he said it. It appears in his speech after the Columbia Shuttle disaster, eighteen months after September 11th 2001. My bad. And I here publicly apologize to the President for casting his quote in the context of contrasting religions rather than as a poetic reference to the lost souls of Columbia. I have no excuse for this, other than both events-- so close to one another -- upset me greatly." [2] As such this WP:BLPSELFPUB verifies the fact that it occurred, and eliminates any WP:BLP concerns. The reason that it wasn't immediately entered into Neil deGrasse Tyson's bio page is that there are still concerns about WP:WEIGHT. It is entirely possible that there is not enough WP:WEIGHT to include it in Neil deGrasse Tyson's bio page at all, and yet it still be relevant to the The Federalist (website) satisfying the WP:WEIGHT requirements for that page. Do you disagree, and if so why?-- Obsidi ( talk ) 03:05, 13 October 2014 (UTC)
Jytdog, I take it from your deletion of the conversation you initiated on Gamaliel's user talk page, after I appropriately transferred it from Gamaliel's talk page to yours, that you do not have the courage of your convictions. You have repeatedly accused me of ignorance and violations of policy and guidelines, and impliedly threatened me with sanctions. Well, in the words of the cliche, "it's time to put up, or shut up." Please let me know if you would like to argue your point at ANI or the 3RR/Editwar noticeboard -- otherwise, please cease trying to provoke me, making unsubstantiated accusations about me, or generally behaving in uncivil manner towards me. Thank you. Dirtlawyer1 ( talk) 15:09, 14 October 2014 (UTC)
FYI, I have decided to remove your user talk page from my watch list. Please understand that my failure to respond further to your various accusations is not in any way an acceptance of their validity. It is simply an acknowledgment that this conversation has exhausted whatever useful purpose it may have had. Regards, Dirtlawyer1 ( talk) 16:27, 14 October 2014 (UTC)
Jytdog, can you support the "alternative text" that begins "In the summer and fall of 2014, conservative websites and social media attacked Tyson's character . . ." In the discussion you seem to be arguing in its favor, while recognizing the concerns of everyone involved. Can you commit to it (or something very similar)? I think it strikes the right tone, reduces the controversy to its essential elements, and provides something like the minimum explanation and context for the reader to make sense of it. I think it also addresses the concerns of WEIGHT and UNDUE that appear to be the only remaining objections of any merit. Tough to argue that two sentences out of 55,000 bytes are somehow giving unfair attention to one controversy in the life of this man. If it can be properly place within an appropriate section of the article, the added content probably does not require one of those obnoxious "controversy" subheaders, either. Dirtlawyer1 ( talk) 15:08, 16 October 2014 (UTC)
( talk page stalker) I've been watching this from a distance, and I sure do hope that the two of you can come to agreement, because the two of you have been, separately, people I have edited with and found to be very sensible and likable, so it dismayed me to see you disagreeing with each other. -- Tryptofish ( talk) 21:59, 17 October 2014 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | ← | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | Archive 6 | Archive 7 | Archive 8 | → | Archive 10 |
Thanks for thoroughly checking this article. I didn't have access to Krause 2004, so I let it pass on good faith. Maybe I shouldn't have. QVVERTYVS ( hm?) 09:59, 18 August 2014 (UTC)
Hello Jytdog I note you've again edited this article, despite having on the MDann52 talk page undertaken not to do so. This is your right of course, but you've also made edits which you neither drew attention to or gave reasons for in either your edit summary or within the comments you made on the article talk page. I've mentioned and responded to these edits in the section you created on the article talk page entitled "edits by MDann52"
I also note you've now expressed a willingness to compromise with other editors, and this of course is very welcome. Please see the aforementioned article talk page section, where you'll see I've added a response suggesting a compromise edit which hopefully deals with the issues that you did mention in your edit summary. Thanks for this - it would be good if this matter can be resolved, and it does appear some progress is now being made towards this. Best wishes, UK1000 ( talk) 16:28, 6 September 2014 (UTC)
Your comments are unfortunately again condescending and confrontational, as well as inconsistent with the discussion on the article talk page which, along with your disregard for both basic courtesy and Wikipedia policies (as suggested by the frequent reverting of your edits not by myself but by very experienced Wikipedia editors) is plain on the article talk page to see. Thanks however for your input. UK1000 ( talk) 22:05, 10 September 2014 (UTC)
Ok, would you please reframe it? There were some changes from "God" to "YHWH". The point of course is that we have one pov editor who wants to change it all, and an RfC seems the best way to deal with it. Dougweller ( talk) 13:12, 20 August 2014 (UTC)
Everything I posted on the talk page was accurate. I would be happy to source anything you believe erroneous reliably. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.66.215.166 ( talk) 00:49, 20 August 2014 (UTC)
I have a fondness for the new-fangled King James Old Testament transliterations; they certainly have their place. But in many cases I prefer the old classical Greco-Latin transliterations found in the Vulgate derived translations (and the KJV New Testament and Apocrypha), not because they are more accurate (They are not!), but because they are dignified by age, and because their classical endings are cool. So I prefer Elias to Elijah, Tobias to Tobit, Core to Korah, Jesus to Yeshua (or Joshua). To say nothing of Cyclops for Kuklops, Cyrus to Kuros, Dinosaur to Deinosauros, etc. ad nauseam.
But my preference is neither here or there. It is important to have the classical transliterations, even when they have fallen out use in modern English, because they are used in the older pre-KJV translations of the Bible, as well as in current translations in the Romance languages, where the classical transliterations have never gone out of fashion. The fact that they are obscure now, makes it more necessary, not less, to include them, so that readers who stumble across these mystifying names can find them on Wikipedia. There is now a page called Nohestan that redirects to Nehushtan, and a pet peeve of mine is to get redirected to page and find nothing about the actual term I typed in. I will grant you that in this case, it will be clear to any educated reader than Nehushtan must be a variant of Nohestan, but not all readers are educated, and anyway, what's the harm?
Thanks. Rwflammang ( talk) 23:59, 25 August 2014 (UTC)
I'm new to editing Wikipedia but I do know a lot of random triva and have a relatively good grasp of the English language. I found out about Advisorshares from the history on Philippe Cousteau Jr.'s page after I saw something on the news about Philippe Cousteau Jr. coming to Iceland. I don't have any conflict of interest with AdvisorShares. They do not operate in my country. I explained in other posts that I am not the "ETFCanadian" and no one has yet proved otherwise. However, I do kind of have an adversion to people who try to hide the truth and deceive others. While I do not want to generalize or stereotype, there are a lot of people like this in the financial sector as anyone from Iceland knows.
I don't see why the stories and links about Advisorshares need to be hidden. From my knowledge there is freedom of speech in the US and you don't have crazy libel laws like in the UK. Plus the information that has been deleted is not libeling anyone, it is just restatement of facts as they were reported by journalist, judges and others. I do not want to get to a confrontation with you. It is against my nature. I would just like to know: Why does any negative but true information about a US financial company need to be hidden from the public? If it's not true or biased can't someone just make an argument for the opposite side? If you have a good reason, I would love to hear it! Icelandicgolfer ( talk) 00:16, 24 August 2014 (UTC)
I noticed your edit here. I think the previous version, saying Midrash, is also correct. The Midrash is also part of the Oral tradition. And if you meant to say that this text is referring specifically to halakhic traditions, which in itself I wouldn't agree with, then there are halakhic midrashim as well. In addition, the Mishnah is part of the Talmud, so after your change "Mishnah and Talmud" is a little overdoing things. In short, unless you have an additional argument, I'd like to restore Midrash and Talmud. Debresser ( talk) 15:50, 31 August 2014 (UTC)
Please advise me if I have a COI in editing pages concerning agriculture and specifically those with organic and related sustainability topics. I do research in developing an alternative agricultural model. I am not paid by anyone to do this research, and it is completely funded by the sales of tomatoes and peppers from my test plots. (I have 2 test plots. 1 is ~1/10th an acre and the other is ~1 acre.) I receive absolutely no outside funding from any industry or government, neither the organic industry nor the conventional industry. The produce is not certified organic. However:
The trials using the methods I am developing use these 10 principles:
In the past I have worked in conventional agriculture, however that was over 30 years ago. So I doubt that is a COI either.
I honestly don't feel like there is a COI either way, since while I did make a living in conventional ag years ago, that was long past, and the trials I do now are not making me a living, any income simply funds the trials. But I am inexperienced with certain details about WIKI so I defer to your judgement and will be happy to post a COI if you think it is needed. If my trials end up being successful in scaling up to full size, then there could potentially be profits that might be needing to be disclosed. That hasn't happened yet, and might not ever happen. Redddbaron ( talk) 19:05, 29 August 2014 (UTC)
Nice work on Organic food. Well done. bobrayner ( talk) 19:23, 31 August 2014 (UTC)
I appreciate the work you are doing, but it is not correct to say that it was "one of the most contaminated..... until its remediation". It almost certainly still is one of the most contaminated sites , but now its got a concrete cap on it. The cap may well limit the surface drainage issues but the contaminants remain inside the site and available to the wider world when the concrete degrades or when the leachate finds its way out through the ground-water. Regards Velella Velella Talk 11:55, 2 September 2014 (UTC)
on the issues raised at User_talk:2over0#Bit_of_a_tiff_about_a_source. This isn't meant as, or to be construed as, canvassing because it's about a simple matter of fact, which I'm asking you about because you're scientifically literate and objective. I've asked a couple other clueful users, who I trust to be objective, to comment as well. Thanks! regards, Middle 8 ( POV-pushing • COI) 17:30, 2 September 2014 (UTC)
Huh... I made it from "BlankMap-World-large", which is in wikimedia commons, so there's no copyright. Info used from their webpage is also available everywhere else (news pages, see links), so there's no copyright either. That's just a list of countries. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Le Déchaîné ( talk • contribs) 14:34, 3 September 2014 (UTC)
Hi Jytdog, i think the recent edit at Z is notable, however the article will likely never be accurate in patient anamnesis/physical examination/diagnosis. -- prokaryotes ( talk) 21:44, 3 September 2014 (UTC)
Appreciated your thoughtful comments as always (it is always especially fun to hear thoughful comments about myself ;-) ). Based on your feedback, and Guy's and others particularly at my COI/N, I rewrote it, FWIW: User:Middle_8/COI. cheers, -- Middle 8 ( POV-pushing • COI) 08:08, 4 September 2014 (UTC)
Jytdog - I see there's a bit of an edit war taking place on Biofuel. Reviewing edit history, it appears to me that you're correct about AesopSmart / Whoisjoking is engaging in sock use. Further, it appears that AesopWise may also be a sock. Do you know how this is best handled?-- E8 ( talk) 16:28, 7 September 2014 (UTC)
@ Jytdog:, Shalom! Persecution of Jews in Arab lands was not limited to the Almohads of Spain or North Africa. It was also prevalent in Yemen, where the Mawza Exile is sketched deep in the sub-conscious of every Yemenite Jew, and even described in the Jewish Encyclopedia and in many other Hebrew writings. Jews were scattered throughout the Diaspora, and, as in many other places, persecution of Jews in Yemen also had its dark periods. I wish to cordially make one correction in what I was wrongly accused of doing, namely, of WP:EDITWARRING. This is certainly not true in my case, as I can prove forthrightly. When my first edit was deleted, the reason given was that it lacked sources. I then reposted the edit, with a reference to the source. Then I was told that the sources were not adequate enough, so I changed the sources, bringing down better sources, and merging my edit with the previous editor's edit - without diminishing aught from the previous edit. Still my newest edit was deleted. Is there no place here for mentioning the sufferings of the Jews of Yemen in the 17th century? Davidbena ( talk) 01:10, 8 September 2014 (UTC)
Hello. This message is being sent to inform you that there is currently a discussion involving you at
Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Edit warring regarding a possible violation of Wikipedia's policy on
edit warring. Thank you. — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
Blacksun1942 (
talk •
contribs)
20:59, 11 September 2014 (UTC)
Try looking at their other
. No discussion is really necessary...please revert.
—
Berean Hunter
(talk)
22:45, 8 September 2014 (UTC)
thanks everybody, interesting discussion. Jytdog ( talk) 20:46, 11 September 2014 (UTC)
Hi Jytdog. I wanted to let you know that I opened an incident report on EllenCT at the administrator's noticeboard. This isn't a request for comment (although you're welcome to if you want), but rather just letting you know since you spent quite a bit of time and effort trying to help Ellen out and that I cited some of your talk page responses. Thanks. Kingofaces43 ( talk) 09:34, 16 September 2014 (UTC)
I would like some guidance relating to the Interleukin 2 page. You continue to revert my edits, which come directly from Dr. Robert Gallo. What am I doing wrong? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Harryhammel ( talk • contribs) 14:02, 2 October 2014 (UTC
And who are you? ( Kasmith ( talk) 15:16, 5 October 2014 (UTC))
Relying on secondary and tertiary references to be more "true" than primary references because the "community" has presumably vetted them is fallacious. Please read ( http://journal.frontiersin.org/Journal/10.3389/fimmu.2013.00079/full), which goes into the "hidden agendas" that many review authors have used, and how it corrupts our literature and the field. ( Kasmith ( talk) 19:56, 6 October 2014 (UTC)).
This issue is essentially about how new knowledge is acquired, how it's veracity is established and how it is reported to the public. How does one know what is "true"? ( Kasmith ( talk) 17:43, 7 October 2014 (UTC))
Could you please take a few minutes to consider the following?
My intention is to have a fair and accurate representation of the fluoridation controversy. To that end, I have read publications from the 30s, 40s, 50s, 60, and 70s as well as more current material. I’ve read over a thousand pages. It is hard to pull a few pages out of context, but I identified a few pages in 3 of those resources for which I’d appreciate your feedback.
Item 1
This entire excerpt is wonderful, but back up to Chapter 1 in this 2010 book to look at Tables 1, 2 and 3. Also read the section “WHO says so” which focuses on studies from all decades.
http://books.google.com/books?id=KPn4AwAAQBAJ&pg=PT153&lpg=PT153&dq=books+by+philip+sutton+fluoride&source=bl&ots=lhg0T_8ZrG&sig=RMdFFYKnJgIVimwtfrf49fbtw9U&hl=en&sa=X&ei=P-gcVNjZD9edygTl2YDYDQ&ved=0CDIQ6AEwBjgK#v=onepage&q=books%20by%20philip%20sutton%20fluoride&f=false
Item 2 The 1960 book by Philip R.N. Sutton is entirely based on the analysis of the initial studies. He was a statistician and didn't have a POV regarding fluoridation, just the way the trials were conducted. I don't know whether you'd want to read the entire book, but it at least proves that there were objections based on something other than "communists" in the 1950s. I've included a couple of shorter options, below. He was cited in the 2010 book above.
Item 3"'
The first 250 pages in The Great Dilemma (1978) are primarily science, and I found them fascinating. Sections, mostly clinical notes on patients, are reprinted from Waldbott’s 1965 book.
George Waldbott was an internationally recognized allergist and research scientist who first identified penicillin allergies, human anaphylactic shock and the connection between what was then called idiopathic asthma and smoking.
You can find these references on www dot whale dot to /b/Waldbott_DILEMMA_ocr.pdf
Excerpt, p 380:
“For nearly a decade after 1931, the PHS sought to remove excessive fluoride from water supplies because of endemic mottled teeth. But after 1940, the balance began to tilt in the opposite direction - to augment water supplies with fluoride. On the basis of studies on a very small number of healthy young men, plus limited surveys of health effect in natural fluoride areas, PHS scientists concluded that fluoride had no significant adverse effect on health, except for occasional mild mottling….. “
Item 4 A short 2005 article from the Journal of American Physicians and Surgeons re science & controversy: http://www.jpands.org/vol10no2/kauffman.pdf
Again, my purpose is to have a fair and unbiased Wikipedia representation of the fluoridation controversy. As it stands, it is incomplete and inaccurate. I thought perhaps bringing it to your talk page would be more appropriate. Thank you.
Seabreezes1 ( talk) 18:21, 22 September 2014 (UTC)
You may be interested in this candidate for deletion. My listing it for deletion today prompted an editor to double its size from 13 words to 26; you may some views on its merits or possibilities. It seems to me you have the notable aspect of the subject covered in the casein article. BlackCab ( TALK) 13:47, 24 September 2014 (UTC)
The two of you need to stop edit warring. You do not own this article. The edit I made is better sourced and updated. It makes more sense and makes things very clear to the reader. This isn't about you and Gandydancer. Stop! Thanks. SW3 5DL ( talk) 23:06, 27 September 2014 (UTC)
Jytdog, what medical journals do you read regularly? If any? -- Nbauman ( talk) 00:50, 28 September 2014 (UTC)
first, removing sources that fail MEDRS and content based on them from a health-related article is not disruptive. we have to do that all the time, when editors get overenthusiastic digging into primary sources. Second... i do acknowledge that there are a lot of people who feel that the pharma/biotech industries are corrupt and corrupting and yes one can read endless books and articles about that. I have acknowledged that all along, i believe. And I have said, several times, that all these editors are still in the business of medical publishing, and these articles continue to be published, and they continue to serve their purpose. The real world is what I am holding up against you, to say that the broad brush strokes you have painted with, just do not correspond to what the mainstream is actually doing every day. Going through Horton's 10 points:
All that adds up to "yep there are some problems". Not the broad brush strokes you painted. And as I have said several times, it is the broad brush that makes it FRINGE in my eyes; it just a matter of lack of moderation, of too much black and white. Jytdog ( talk) 09:47, 28 September 2014 (UTC)
Dear Jytdog, Would you let me talk to you for a moment. When a great scientist is working on a difficult problem, does he just know the answer. Does he take a stance and guard it or does he refuse to take a permanent stance and flow with the tide of the latest research. Which strategies do great reasoners with great courage use to stand up for what is right and thereby gain the respect of their peers for generations?
I think it is easiest to define a good scientist by objectively measurable qualities and leave the subjective stuff to the arts & individual spirituality. Modern science has produced Multiple Intelligence Theory as an objective way of defining the ways people can be intelligent in different areas. Sometimes scientists are very highly developed in many lines but have difficulty noticing their blind spots because they haven't had a friend introduce them to Multiple Intelligences Theory, and many people are uncomfortable adopting continues on with medieval stereotypes about biomedical subjects.
In the very near future, a good way for us to assess our scientists' balance of these different intelligences would be for them to, simply, take a multiple intelligences test online. Won't it be amazing when scientists everywhere realize that the tools to hone their own minds and their own self-awareness exist only seconds away? Even more incredible is how widespread understanding of the scientific method is. Truly science is making great progress in understanding nature right now. It's even bizarre because so often we learn something a year ago or ten years ago and that idea has already been made obsolete.
I just want to THANK YOU for your efforts in maintaining scientific rigor and being a truly amazing, humble contributor who's always willing to question archaic ideas. Thanks Jytdog, Boleroinferno ( talk) 13:59, 28 September 2014 (UTC)
Hello. This message is being sent to inform you that there is currently a discussion involving you at
Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Edit warring regarding a possible violation of Wikipedia's policy on
edit warring. Thank you.
SW3 5DL (
talk)
23:45, 27 September 2014 (UTC)
In vitro activity against bacteria does not make the citation medical in nature, so far it is more biological. So at that stage where medical application / activity is not yet concerned, I believe a primary source may be feasible wrt. MEDRS. Think of action as a food preservative etc. The src was from a food science article. 70.137.135.214 ( talk) 09:28, 1 October 2014 (UTC) Also think of an unwanted action, maybe shared with synthetic derivatives, as a biocide, acting on beneficial or symbiotic bacteria. Would still not be medical in nature. 70.137.135.214 ( talk) 10:11, 1 October 2014 (UTC)
What's your next step? Waiting if the editor got the message, Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement, or something else? -- NeilN talk to me 23:52, 2 October 2014 (UTC)
User:Jytdog, Hi. There is a question about what is considered worthy or not worthy of publishing on a WP article page in terms of photos because of what may or may not be perceived by others as distasteful (bad taste). The editor, User "PacificWarrior101," who has lately been joined by User "Amire80," have posted a Commons photograph of Israeli singer and transgender, Dana International, a photograph which I personally feel shows bad taste and tends to "flout" the dignity and self-respect of the Yemenite Jewish people. I voiced my concerns to the editor about my feelings of repugnancy evoked by the picture on a main article page, Yemenite Jews, that treats on ethnicity and, to a large extent, the history of Yemenite Jews. Most Yemenite Jews will feel a sense of shame by seeing this photo of "Dana International" on the page that speaks specifically about them as a people - and who, by the way, are mostly conservative to religious. While I have no personal problems about discussing issues of transgender, here the matter is different. Dana International's photograph on the main page of an article which treats on ethnicity is tantamount to putting up an image of the serial killer "Son of Sam" (David Berkowitz) on the ethnicity page, Jews. Or, let's say, a photo of Israeli troops shooting at an Arab child, on a page which speaks on Israeli ethnicity. There should be a place for common considerations as for what is tactful and what is not, particularly when the photo is controversial and evokes shame. See the Talk page on Yemenite Jews, and the sub-section: "Flouting an Ethnic Group." Any advice by you will be much appreciated. Davidbena ( talk) 19:30, 29 September 2014 (UTC)
Fascinating essays on your userpage!
Have you ever watched the show Penn & Teller: Bullshit! ?
— Cirt ( talk) 02:14, 2 October 2014 (UTC)
Please remove the mention of an email from SW3's talk page since as you know I did not send any emails to you (or anyone else, as far as that goes). Perhaps it does not bother you to see it used to add to his poor characterization of me, but it does matter to me. Thanks. Gandydancer ( talk) 20:50, 3 October 2014 (UTC)
Jytdog, please don't come back to my talk page. Unfortunately, neither of you have made constructive comments there and as I said on my last post, that conversation has ended. SW3 5DL ( talk) 01:02, 4 October 2014 (UTC)
accuse people of adding material that they did not add, such as "Your content, " Still other publications appear as advertising disguised as science." is reverted because it violates the policy," at Talk:Sugar_beet. If you stopped to think a little more it might seep through to you that the reason these pages get so much controversy is because you are inhibiting discussion of points that people don't understand. But I've had enough of your don't-dare-to-discuss-these-matters-because-I- own-the-pages attitude and will not discuss this further. Good bye. Please do not edit my talk page, and I won't edit yours again. Sminthopsis84 ( talk) 17:36, 4 October 2014 (UTC)
Nothing personal, and if I believed it to be racist, I would be the first to expunge it. - Roxy the dog™ ( resonate) 00:04, 7 October 2014 (UTC)
There is currently a discussion at
Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. Thank you.
EllenCT (
talk)
06:23, 7 October 2014 (UTC)
![]() |
The Barnstar of Integrity | |
for diffusive and even-handed input in editor disputes DocumentError ( talk) 02:46, 6 October 2014 (UTC) |
Thanks for your patient work at Environmental impact of hydraulic fracturing, defending use of secondary and WP:MEDRS. A well-deserved barnstar! Cheers, Pete Tillman ( talk) 02:11, 10 October 2014 (UTC)
Mayday. I almost had convulsions when I read "3D printers to create synthetic life" in Craig Venter. I want to hit delete so badly I but want you to be my wing-man and keep me cool. BatteryIncluded ( talk) 13:43, 12 October 2014 (UTC)
Thanks for reverting all my changes, and bringing the wiki page for 'Biomedical Engineering' back to the condition that it was in. The talk page clearly said: "If you can improve it, please do." linking to the wiki article: /info/en/?search=Wikipedia:Be_bold And that is what I did.
I did not contribute based on "original research" or "non-verified" work (the reasons that you have cited while reverting the edits). All the information was from IEEE EMBS page, which was referenced right at the beginning of the section of Subdisciplines. This page needed huge improvements, and I spent huge amount of my time trying to do that. And I had clearly mentioned in comments that this still needs more work. It was in no way complete; it still needed references, more information under each subdiscipline, etc. What I had done was created a starting template (what you called an essay) for more people to come and contribute, because clearly there were lot such offers in Talk page before, but either disinterest or politics did not let those efforts materialize.
I can guarantee you that the edits reflected the wide field of BME much more than what it is right now. I had not deleted anything significant from what was already there. If you really think you are the guardian of this page, I highly suggest that you improve it. Thanks! A Proud Biomedical Engineer - Craziwiki ( talk) 20:14, 12 October 2014 (UTC)
I wanted to talk about your recent deletion at The Federalist (website). I don't understand how this is a WP:BLP issue? Yes RfC on the entry into Neil deGrasse Tyson's bio page has not been decided yet. But it isn't for reasons of verifiability. Neil deGrasse Tyson himself explicitly said: "But I was wrong about when he said it. It appears in his speech after the Columbia Shuttle disaster, eighteen months after September 11th 2001. My bad. And I here publicly apologize to the President for casting his quote in the context of contrasting religions rather than as a poetic reference to the lost souls of Columbia. I have no excuse for this, other than both events-- so close to one another -- upset me greatly." [2] As such this WP:BLPSELFPUB verifies the fact that it occurred, and eliminates any WP:BLP concerns. The reason that it wasn't immediately entered into Neil deGrasse Tyson's bio page is that there are still concerns about WP:WEIGHT. It is entirely possible that there is not enough WP:WEIGHT to include it in Neil deGrasse Tyson's bio page at all, and yet it still be relevant to the The Federalist (website) satisfying the WP:WEIGHT requirements for that page. Do you disagree, and if so why?-- Obsidi ( talk ) 03:05, 13 October 2014 (UTC)
Jytdog, I take it from your deletion of the conversation you initiated on Gamaliel's user talk page, after I appropriately transferred it from Gamaliel's talk page to yours, that you do not have the courage of your convictions. You have repeatedly accused me of ignorance and violations of policy and guidelines, and impliedly threatened me with sanctions. Well, in the words of the cliche, "it's time to put up, or shut up." Please let me know if you would like to argue your point at ANI or the 3RR/Editwar noticeboard -- otherwise, please cease trying to provoke me, making unsubstantiated accusations about me, or generally behaving in uncivil manner towards me. Thank you. Dirtlawyer1 ( talk) 15:09, 14 October 2014 (UTC)
FYI, I have decided to remove your user talk page from my watch list. Please understand that my failure to respond further to your various accusations is not in any way an acceptance of their validity. It is simply an acknowledgment that this conversation has exhausted whatever useful purpose it may have had. Regards, Dirtlawyer1 ( talk) 16:27, 14 October 2014 (UTC)
Jytdog, can you support the "alternative text" that begins "In the summer and fall of 2014, conservative websites and social media attacked Tyson's character . . ." In the discussion you seem to be arguing in its favor, while recognizing the concerns of everyone involved. Can you commit to it (or something very similar)? I think it strikes the right tone, reduces the controversy to its essential elements, and provides something like the minimum explanation and context for the reader to make sense of it. I think it also addresses the concerns of WEIGHT and UNDUE that appear to be the only remaining objections of any merit. Tough to argue that two sentences out of 55,000 bytes are somehow giving unfair attention to one controversy in the life of this man. If it can be properly place within an appropriate section of the article, the added content probably does not require one of those obnoxious "controversy" subheaders, either. Dirtlawyer1 ( talk) 15:08, 16 October 2014 (UTC)
( talk page stalker) I've been watching this from a distance, and I sure do hope that the two of you can come to agreement, because the two of you have been, separately, people I have edited with and found to be very sensible and likable, so it dismayed me to see you disagreeing with each other. -- Tryptofish ( talk) 21:59, 17 October 2014 (UTC)