Hello, JerryRussell, and welcome to Wikipedia! Thank you for your contributions. I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are a few links to pages you might find helpful:
You may also want to take the Wikipedia Adventure, an interactive tour that will help you learn the basics of editing Wikipedia. You can visit The Teahouse to ask questions or seek help.
Please remember to sign your messages on talk pages by typing four tildes (~~~~); this will automatically insert your username and the date. If you need help, check out Wikipedia:Questions, ask me on my talk page, or , and a volunteer should respond shortly. Again, welcome! SwisterTwister talk 00:07, 19 March 2016 (UTC)
Stop treating Wikipedia like your blog. Just stop it. learn the policies and guidelines and work by them. Jytdog ( talk) 02:02, 27 May 2016 (UTC)
No. The concept of fringe is well defined at WP:FRINGE and Fringe theory. MjolnirPants Tell me all about it. 20:36, 27 May 2016 (UTC)
To answer this your question... (a) I almost always respond when someone pings me or asks me a question. (b) I have a habit of watching all old disputes where I previously commented, until these disputes are settled. (c) I am interested in certain subjects and watch certain pages. None of that is forbidden. To the contrary, a positive collaboration in the project (that is what I do) is encouraged. My very best wishes ( talk) 18:31, 19 June 2016 (UTC)
I note that you've left a query as to how to ping users from talk pages. Template:Reply to is the best starting point for learning the ins and outs of alerting other editors. It only works for those who have accounts, not for IP contributors. You don't need to ping editors from their own talk page as they will receive a notification of a message having been left on their talk page, or of having been 'mentioned' from the menu across the very top of the right hand side of the screen (Your user account → 2 boxes (alerts + messages) → Talk → Sandbox → et. al. In effect, pinging someone from their own talk page is redundant. If someone doesn't respond immediately, it's usually an indicator that they're busy in some other area of Wikipedia or may have logged out for the day. If there isn't a response for a while (I'm talking a couple of days), it's useful to check their editing history to see whether they've been editing at all since you left the message. If they haven't, just wait. If they have been editing, you may want to follow up with another reminder. Editors don't always respond if they have their own reasons for not wanting to respond. If it seems that you're being ignored, there's nothing to be done about it per WP:NOTCOMPULSORY. It shouldn't be considered an affront or a concern unless the behaviour fits WP:NOTHERE and the editor is obviously avoiding any attempts to respond to content concerns you may have. That's a different kettle of fish entirely. -- Iryna Harpy ( talk) 04:09, 20 June 2016 (UTC)
Thank you for stepping up and doing the reading on the Earthquake Prediction page's POV/neutrality issues. That discussion desperately needed another voice. Elriana ( talk) 23:21, 5 July 2016 (UTC)
I've been engaged in a discussion with @ J. Johnson: at Talk:Earthquake prediction, and it was going far off-topic with respect to the specific questions he asked at his RfC. He requested that we move the conversation here to my talk page.
I would like to make it clear that in general, I agree that many or perhaps all of the Greek IP editors' proposed changes to the article went well beyond NPOV, to the point of advocacy for the VAN method. I appreciate JJ's work in challenging the IP editors regarding those edits.
JJ, your comments to the IP editors (and to me) indicate that you believe the VAN method is pathological science, and should be treated according to WP:FRINGE policies. I feel there's considerable merit in that position. Various sources clearly state that the VAN group has mis-represented their results, that they have no valid methodology, and that they have unnecessarily caused public panic on numerous occasions. One source specifically states that they believe VAN is pathological.
But on the other hand, I also see that the VAN group have vigorously rebutted those accusations at every opportunity. No academic tribunals have been successfully instituted to redress alleged misconduct, and that they continue to publish their materials in highly respected journals. I think it's notable that a group from Peking has recently taken an interest in the VAN method (see [1] and [2]).
The Greek IP editors have also indicated their view that critics of VAN may be representing a government policy. I see some possible merit in that position as well.
As Wiki editors, I understand that it's not our job to determine Truth, but that our job is to determine what the RS say. For WP:FRINGE to apply, we would need to find that the RS indicate something approaching a scientific consensus that VAN is pathological. (This consensus wouldn't necessarily need to extend to the VAN group themselves, or their close associates). You could certainly make a case for that, and I would respect your opinion.
But, at this point, I still feel that the scientific jury hasn't collectively finished with this. Uyeda and the Japanese group can't be obviously dismissed as a dependent source, and now there is support from China as well. And the possibility of a COI on the part of VAN critics can't be dismissed out of hand, either. JerryRussell ( talk) 15:38, 7 July 2016 (UTC)
BTW, you said above that you saw "some possible merit" in the view that "critics of VAN may be representing a government policy
". How do you reckon that? In that the principal critics (Geller, Wyss, Mulargia, Gasperini, Kagan, Jackson, etc.) are not Greek, which government, and which policy, are they supposedly representing? ~
J. Johnson (JJ) (
talk)
22:08, 11 July 2016 (UTC)
critics of VAN may be representing a government policy" : This statement is not correct. There was no government policy in Greece against VAN. There was always a flow of research funds to the VAN team originally and to the Solid Earth Physics Institute later. Also there was support by the Hellenic Army with communication facilities, especially in the early period, and with provision of support personnel. However partisan politics were frequently mixed in the early controvesies and political influence and affiliations were covertly used by both sides, especially by the opponents of VAN. SV1XV ( talk) 16:24, 14 July 2016 (UTC)
The political and social situation is much more complicated. When there is an earthquate, the public is charging government officials with failure to act, or even with suppressing scientific information. But when the government announces that there is a possible impending EQ at a specific area (based on foreshocks) locals accuse the government that the announcement and associated publicity causes reduction to turism in the area. It's a no win situation.
Criticism on VAN within Greece was not politically motivated, it was motivated by competition for limited research funds.
About partisan politics now, you have to understand that in Greece people need political patronage even for minor issues. I cannot explain in detail how this affects the VAN controvesies of 1981-2000 without naming 2-3 living persons with good leftist political connections, so I have to end it here. I can only say that in technical terms the criticism was as vague as VAN's assumptions of SES propagation and spatial selectivity. When the critics were pressed for technical detail, they invariably switched their rhetoric to issues related to the usufulness of a successful prediction. After about 2000 all discussions have died out, the opponents have moved to other activities, Varotsos and Eftaxias are now retired and younger people simply ignore the issue. SV1XV ( talk) 02:27, 15 July 2016 (UTC)
In the above discussion on VAN method, I find that I am becoming confused about the role of personal opinions at Wikipedia. I have read the various policy and guidance pages, and find them confusing and contradictory. Some key principles are: (1) Wiki is not a soapbox, discussions should be focused on content; (2) Content is to be based on reliable sources; (3) User pages are primarily for discussion of user conduct issues; (4) "Meta" discussions about editing are OK in user space.
Has the discussion crossed over the line, from discussing what the sources say, to having a debate about our own opinions? I have been assuming that everyone participating in the discussion is comfortable about its appropriateness, but am not sure. Does anyone have any concerns that the discussion has been inappropriate or tendentious or sanctionable, especially on my part? JerryRussell ( talk) 20:40, 13 July 2016 (UTC)
Would anyone agree that an unavoidable Wiki editorial duty is the evaluation of reliable sources to determine whether those sources are biased? That is, perhaps, the essence of the discussion above: our views about whether VAN sources are biased and unreliable, and conversely whether the critics might be similarly biased because of disclosed or undisclosed COI. JerryRussell ( talk) 21:08, 13 July 2016 (UTC)
an unavoidable Wiki editorial duty" to evaluate (and weigh) sources. Not just for "bias", but to evaluate their notability, whether the view is representative of the mainstream view, etc. By sharing our views on such matters we (hopefully) improve those views. No problem if we have go around a few times to get to the bottom of something; in the end it means our opinions are better founded. (And well screwed-in?) The ban against expression of personal opinions can't be taken too strictly (as all judgements are, in the end, opinion), and is mainly about using WP space more like a blog. I don't think there is any problem where we are discussing why we have differents about the sources, etc. It is to be expected that no two WP editors will come up with a single, consistent POV on the first read. Discussing these is how we sort these out and move toward a single voice. ~ J. Johnson (JJ) ( talk) 22:18, 13 July 2016 (UTC)
OK, thanks! I really do want to do the work, as I'm very curious to know if there's any possible way to forecast earthquakes here in the Cascadia subduction zone. Or, it would also be useful to be able to predict if there's Not going to be an earthquake here anytime soon. (whatever else you can say about Omerbashich, that's one angle about his approach that I like.)
Otherwise I'm going to have to stop procrastinating on another project: beef up my house! Helical foundation anchors? Better facilities for duck-and-cover? JerryRussell ( talk) 21:43, 14 July 2016 (UTC)
Hey! I was actually out there last month training for how to unmuck the west coast when Cascadia goes bananas and pull you guys out of burning buildings and such.
Anyway, about the Nehlen article, I reverted an edit you did there. Please review WP:BLP. For legal and ethical reasons, Wikipedia has pretty strict rules about what goes into a biography of a living person, and it's probably going to take more than a local newspaper article to meet those. If you have any questions, feel free to respond on my talk. TimothyJosephWood 00:00, 16 July 2016 (UTC)
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Die Frage, mit der sich unsere Zeit so viel beschäftigt hat ob nämlich Dieser, ob Jesus der historische Christus sey, haben wir damit beantwortet dass wir zeigten, dass Alles, was der historische Christus ist, was von ihm gesagt wird, was wir von ihm wissen, der Welt der Vorstellung und zwar der christlichen Vorstellung angehört, also auch mit einem Menschen, der der wirklichen Welt angehört Nichts zu thun hat. Die Frage ist damit beantwortet, dass sie für alle Zukunft gestrichen ist. (Image of Title page & p. 308 at Google Books)
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help)Image of p. 157 at Google Books.
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(
help)Many positions accept the historical existence of a human being who called himself Jesus. These include the positions of Remsburg, Frazer, John Robertson, Herbert George Wood and GA Wells.
Wood, Herbert George (1934).
Christianity and the nature of history. University Press. p. 40. [T]he sociological fashion reflected in the rise of Formgeschichte lends colour to Christ-myth theories and indeed to all theories which regard Jesus as an historical but insignificant figure.
Dodd, Charles Harold (1938).
History and the Gospel. Charles Scribner's Sons. pp. 16–17. ...a religion may be based upon, the teachings of a sage or holy man, without any especial reference to the events of his life [...] in the period to which the origins of Christianity are to be assigned, ...were groups which had relations with the Jewish religion, and some of these last came to identify their Saviour-god with the Jewish Messiah, and created for him a mythical embodiment in a figure bearing the cult-name 'Jesus', derived from a Hebrew word meaning 'salvation'. Or alternatively, they seized upon the report of an obscure Jewish holy-man bearing this name, and arbitrarily attached the 'cult-myth' to him.
Robertson, Archibald (1946).
Jesus: Myth or History?. International Publishers. p. 44. Robertson is prepared to concede the possibility of an historical Jesus perhaps more than one having contributed something to the Gospel story. "A teacher or teachers named Jesus, or several differently named teachers called Messiahs " (of whom many are on record) may have uttered some of the sayings in the Gospels. (J. M. Robertson, Christianity and Mythology, revised edition, p. 125)
Mead, G. R. S. (8 November 2013). Did Jesus Live 100 B.C.?. Jazzybee Verlag. ISBN 978-3-8496-4051-4.
96.29.176.92 ( talk) 05:22, 9 September 2016 (UTC) & link 14:20, 9 September 2016 (UTC)
Evans, Craig A. (26 September 2008).
Fabricating Jesus: How Modern Scholars Distort the Gospels. InterVarsity Press. p. 25.
ISBN
978-0-8308-3355-9. [R. M.] Price thinks the evidence is so weak for the historical Jesus that we cannot know anything certain or meaningful about him. He is even willing to entertain the possibility that there never was a historical Jesus.
Eddy, Paul Rhodes; Boyd, Gregory A. (1 August 2007).
The Jesus Legend: A Case for the Historical Reliability of the Synoptic Jesus Tradition. Baker Academic. pp. 24–25.
ISBN
978-0-8010-3114-4. Scholars such as Bruno Bauer, Arthur Drews, and G. A. Wells have argued that the Jesus tradition is virtually—perhaps entirely—fictional in nature ...this view holds that we have no good grounds for thinking any aspect of the Jesus narrative is rooted in history, including the very existence of an actual historical person named Jesus. Some scholars we could include in this category, such as Robert Price, would back off this thesis slightly and argue that we simply lack sufficient information to decide whether a historical Jesus existed. Here, a sort of "Jesus agnosticism" emerges.
Eddy, Paul Rhodes; Boyd, Gregory A. (1 August 2007).
The Jesus Legend: A Case for the Historical Reliability of the Synoptic Jesus Tradition. Baker Academic. p. 165.
ISBN
978-0-8010-3114-4. [Some Christ myth theorists] make much of the claim that there is little or no credible information about the historical Jesus to be found in first—and second—century non-Christian sources or in Paul, the earliest Christian source. Surely if a miracle-working prophet like the Jesus of the Gospels actually existed, it is argued, Paul and pagan contemporaries would have mentioned his feats and his teachings. Instead, they argue, we find a virtual silence. And this strongly suggests that the miracle-working teacher of the Gospels is mostly, if not entirely, legendary.
Doherty, Earl (September 2009).
Jesus: Neither God Nor Man - The Case for a Mythical Jesus. Age of Reason Publications. pp. vii–viii.
ISBN
978-0-9689259-2-8. [The Mythical Jesus viewpoint is] the theory that no historical Jesus worthy of the name existed, that Christianity began with a belief in a spiritual, mythical figure, that the Gospels are essentially allegory and fiction, and [also rejecting the
Q source advanced by Wells] that no single identifiable person lay at the root of the Galilean preaching tradition
96.29.176.92 ( talk) 19:59, 27 October 2016 (UTC) & update 07:00, 28 October 2016 (UTC)
Per,
Thompson makes several clarifications in the comments section. 96.29.176.92 ( talk) 04:21, 18 September 2016 (UTC)
"The peoples of Islam will always be closer to us than, for example, France, in spite of the fact that we are related by blood. It is a tragedy that France has consistently degenerated in the course of centuries and that her upper classes have been perverted by the Jews. France is now condemned to the pursuit of a Jewish policy."
Here is the true QUOTE, wrote by Hitler in his political testament : https://archive.org/stream/PoliticalTestamentOfAdolfHitler/PTAH_djvu.txt
Stop denying this. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 176.190.253.53 ( talk) 20:46, 18 September 2016 (UTC)
Per Talk:Christ myth theory § Citations Demonstrating Scholarly Support for the CMT
I found one for Thompson. 96.29.176.92 ( talk) 04:39, 19 September 2016 (UTC)
Hi Jerry. Look, I'm sorry if I have made you angry. Please note that I, too, am pretty exasperated by some of the proceedings, but I think we should be able to sort it out, on the basis of shared purposes, etc. (Note that I have no such expectation re our SPE, for lack of shared purpose.)
I would like to offer a suggestion. I see that (like many other editors) you often have several edits in quick succession. While that certainly doesn't hurt your edit count, it can obfuscate what is going on, and where. I think there is much to said for composing one's remarks off-line, giving them a bit of rest for reflection, and then pasting them in. It also avoids confusion where someone starts replying before your comments are settled.Of course, I am a little swayed by my context, where I am often interrupted, but still, you might find off-line composing a little less frenetic.
Yeah, slide rules are cool. I still use one (well, in theory). But I think we're giving away our age. ~ J. Johnson (JJ) ( talk) 23:55, 10 October 2016 (UTC)
yes in my view it was tacky. in general it is bad form to move other people's comments without their permission. Jytdog ( talk) 21:31, 17 October 2016 (UTC)
FYI:
Ellegård, Alvar (2008).
"Theologians as historians - Comments by Birger Olsson". Scandia: Tidskrift för historisk forskning (59): 193–196. Olsson devotes, quite unnecessarily, half his space to a quite fair summary of my hypothesis. That leaves him only a page or so to criticize it. (Reply by Alvar Ellegård, p. 199)
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96.29.176.92 (
talk)
21:06, 21 October 2016 (UTC)
Ehrman-Price Debate #2: Price’s Opening Address at vridar.org: Per the comments section, see Tim Bos, he notes that Ehrman used the Compatibility Thesis to refute Mythicism in a recent debate with Price. Its utterly ridiculous, but is broadly parroted. — 96.29.176.92 ( talk) 05:16, 25 October 2016 (UTC)
... has obviously failed, as it must in a place where the power is controlled by a group of people who oppose this, similar to how governance is dominated by oligarchy. Established power does not want to be called out or limited, and will do what needs to be done to block reforms like that. Meanwhile, i'm being pilloried at WP:AE in part for what i spoke in the threaded discussion there about the fringe guideline. Apparently it's evidence sufficient to add up to a siteban for me because i speak critically about patterns i see within Wikipedia. What's the best description of such a dynamic if it were a state governance setup? I'd say it's not the best nor is it a real participatory democracy, but more like the appearance of a place where ideas matter but in which there is a predetermined outcome. Anyway, cheers. I loved the ideals of Wikipedia but can't stand the practice that i ended up seeing. What really happens is so far different from what's described by the policies. SageRad ( talk) 16:42, 25 October 2016 (UTC)
Thanks for your welcoming comments at "Ask a seismologist", which take the edge off of IP202's implication that scientists commenting on WP are low-status. We are really lucky if he will comment, and hopefully everyone will show appreciation. ~ J. Johnson (JJ) ( talk) 22:10, 26 October 2016 (UTC)
[Per the writings of the New Testament] the earliest writings that survive are the genuine letters of Paul. They were written some twenty to thirty years after the death of Jesus. Yet Paul was not a follower of Jesus during his lifetime; nor does he ever claim to have seen Jesus during his ministry. Moreover, Paul's letters were written not to people who lived in the Jewish homeland or who would have heard reports about Jesus from his own time. Instead, his letters were written to new converts who lived in far-off regions of the Roman Empire, western Turkey, Greece, and even Rome itself. Although they are the earliest version of the story, they nonetheless stand at some distance temporally and culturally from the world of Jesus. Even so, they clearly reflect some information about the life of Jesus based on the stories that circulated orally about him.
Interesting geographical elaboration. - 96.29.176.92 ( talk) 16:44, 31 October 2016 (UTC)
Hello, JerryRussell. Voting in the 2016 Arbitration Committee elections is open from Monday, 00:00, 21 November through Sunday, 23:59, 4 December to all unblocked users who have registered an account before Wednesday, 00:00, 28 October 2016 and have made at least 150 mainspace edits before Sunday, 00:00, 1 November 2016.
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Jerry. The Terms of Use say:
The community – the network of users who are constantly building and using the various sites or Projects – are the principal means through which the goals of the mission are achieved. The community contributes to and helps govern our sites. The community undertakes the critical function of creating and enforcing policies for the specific Project editions (such as the different language editions for the Wikipedia Project or the Wikimedia Commons multi-lingual edition).
it also says:
The Wikimedia community and its members may also take action when so allowed by the community or Foundation policies applicable to the specific Project edition, including but not limited to warning, investigating, blocking, or banning users who violate those policies. You agree to comply with the final decisions of dispute resolution bodies that are established by the community for the specific Project editions (such as arbitration committees); these decisions may include sanctions as set out by the policy of the specific Project edition.
This is the en-wiki project, governed by the en-wiki community.
The relevant policy bits here are:
-- Jytdog ( talk) 19:53, 2 December 2016 (UTC)
December 2016/January 2017 Volume 37 Number 1
Mythicism By Robert Stewart, Ph.D. and Marilyn Stewart, M.Div.
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help)Jefferey Querner
Johnny Walker (December 15, 2013). "Jesus Never Existed - How Do We Respond? - 4 Questions to Ask". Freedom in Orthodoxy?.
Response by Jefferey Querner (January 1, 2014) - I always find it funny when someone starts off by attacking mythicists as fringe conspiracy theorists
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1. I have been studying Christianity for about 14 years. I believed in a historical Jesus for about half that time (as well as before I started studying the subject). I have read over 100 scholarly books on the topic and own a bookcase full of books dedicated to that topic alone. I changed my mind not because of any scholarship but because I discovered the Sepher Toledot Yeshu, which placed Jesus in the 1st century B.C. Seeing the earliest version of the Toledot was not derivative of the gospels and finding parallel confirmation in other sources such as Epiphanius and Mara Bar Serapion, I came to the conclusion that Jesus really lived in the first century B.C. and that the gospel Jesus was a myth based on the church’s reaction to the First Jewish-Roman war. 2. The scholars I most align myself with are G.R.S. Mead, Robert M. Price, Earl Doherty, John Dominic Crossan, Delbert Burkett, Richard Friedman, and Israel Finkelstein. I am also a fan of Rudolf Bultmann, Alvar Ellegard, Robert Funk, Albert Schweitzer, Paula Fredriksen, William G. Dever, Helmut Koester, Randel McCraw Helms, Joseph B. Tyson, Robert Eisenman, Margaret Barker, Hyam Maccoby and Joseph Campbell. Yes, I know Crossan believes in a historical Jesus, but that doesn’t mean that his scholarship, along with that of the Jesus Seminar, hasn’t done a great deal of undercutting of the historical underpinnings of the gospel Jesus by explaining why some 80% of Jesus’ sayings could not or probably do not go back to him. It really should not be at all surprising that people who decide to dedicate their lives to studying Christianity would have a bias against mythicism. Most Biblical scholars start off as Biblical Literalists who want to study the Word of God and eventually come around to the truth that the Bible is a human work full of contradictions and interpolations, so it’s hardly surprising that the idea that Jesus never existed would be a bridge too far. 3. That’s easy. Just look at the epistles, excluding the second century Pastorals, and you can see that nothing in them identifies Jesus as a first century itinerant healer or the originator of the teachings being promulgated. Jesus’ “brothers” in Mark’s gospel can be shown to be references to famous first century Galilean figures, showing it to be a story of fiction and not a mythologized bibliography. The canonical texts were chosen in lieu of the decision to regard the Apostolic Church as founded by the gospel Jesus. Other apocryphal texts such as the Didakhe fail to mention Jesus a itinerant healer/preacher as well and the The Sherpherd of Hermas, despite being immense, amazingly fails to even refer to Jesus by name! Other Gnostic texts like Gospel of Judas, which portrays Judas as Jesus’ twin and the only person to truly understand him, are obviously meant to be read as fiction. As to the credibility of a religion starting without a founder, most scholars generally agree that Judaism did not really originate with Moses but came about much later, probably with the canonization of the Bible during Ezra’s time. Apart from that, did Hinduism need a historical originator? Neither Buddha nor Zoroaster can be pinned down to a particular time period with any certainty. Just lately a Buddhist shrine in Nepal was dated 300 years before the generally accepted date for Buddha. Finally, one must ask about the historical likelihood that a localized peasant sect could grow into what became Christainity without overtaking a larger movement, such as the Essenes, in the process. Are there any other religions known in the world that began with someone as low on the totem pole as a Galilean peasant? I think my own theory, that Jesus can be identified with a priest from the Onias dynasty, which owned the rights to the Temple Mount before they were ousted from power, does better to account for how a religious movement could maintain the kind of early popularity necessary to become a major religion. 4. I have read the parallel texts and have written extensively on them. I should add that I do agree that Osiris and Mithras in particular are often overblown and mischaracterized by mythicists. Mithras did not die and come back and Osiris’ resurrection is done in a way that does not particularly parallel Jesus. Mythicists should instead focus their attention to Sumerian and other Mesopotamian texts, whose Biblical parallels with the Garden of Eden, the Fall of Man, Cain and Abel, Noah’s Ark, and the death and resurrection of the fertility god are undeniable. I am always shocked at how little is known among Biblical scholars about the Mesopotamian texts with Biblical parallels considering they really should be required reading for anyone serious about studying the Bible. Ezekiel places the dying-and-rising god Tammuz as being worshiped by women at the Jerusalem Temple itself. If linking a dying-and-rising god to the time of Ezekiel’s composition isn’t good enough because it isn’t close enough to the first century A.D., we can look to Jerome, who said that “From Hadrian’s time [135 A.D.] until the reign of Constantine, for about 180 years…Bethlehem, now ours, and the earth’s, most sacred spot…was overshadowed by a grove of Tammuz, which is Adonis, and in the cave where the infant Messiah once cried, the paramour of Venus was bewailed.” Are we to believe the same pagans who persecuted Christianity stole the site and rededicated it to a much older god who just so happened to also be depicted as a shepherd and a fisherman, whose name Tammuz means “True Son”, and whose Eucharistic meal consisted of bread and wine, all from within a town that just coincidentally means “House of Bread”? The talisman depicting Orpheus becoming an avatar of the god Bacchus by being crucified beneath the seven planets, as shown on the cover of Freke and Gandy’s “The Jesus Mysteries,” is proof positive of correspondence with Christianity. Finally, I believe pretty much all Orthodox Jews would take issue with the assumption that the authors of the New Testament were “thoroughly Jewish” considering some verses such as blood becoming wine or Paul wishing that the “men of the circumcision” would just go all the way and castrate themselves. The New Testament itself is written in Greek, not Herbew or Aramaic. Plenty of non-mythicist scholars have drawn parallels between the teachings attributed to Jesus and the Greek philosophies of Cynicism and Stoicism. |
Stephen J. Bedard (26 August 2016). "5 Questions to Ask Jesus Mythicists". Hope's Reason.
Response by Jefferey Querner (September 1, 2016) - My thoughts on “5 Questions to Ask Jesus Mythicists”
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1. Reading about mythology has been a hobby of mine for over 20 years, so much so that I consider myself an amateur mythologist, especially in regards to ancient Near East mythology. I have a Masters in English Literature, took courses on Arthurian legend, and I did my thesis on the different stages of mythological development. 2. I would assume that they would tell you that the question is beyond the scope of ancient history in general and that you should contact someone who has researched the historical evidence behind that specific question. 3. Josephus scholars who believed the Testimonium to be a complete forgery include: Schurer, Niese, Norden, Zeitlin, Lewy, Juster, von Dobschutz, Karl Kautsky, S.G.F. Brandon, Charles Guignebert, and Twelftree. 4. The question brings an erroneous assumption. It is equivalent to asking “Why do Christians say Jesus was virgin born when the Gospel of Mark says that his mother believed her son to a mortal crazy person?” (Mark 3:21). The answer to both questions is that different sources provide contradictory answers. I could bring up Perseus’ mother, who was impregnated by a shower of golden light, but really the whole argument misses the point. The motif of virgin birth is symbolic of single motherhood. The Jewish tradition, as handed down by the Talmud, the Toledot and Celsus make a great deal about Jesus being a bastard, and this motif, whether historical or not, is in turn implied by the single motherhood in Mark, the fact that the four women mentioned in Matthew’s genealogy are notable for having questionable purity, and the saying recorded by the Gospel of Thomas: “Whoever knows the father and the mother will be called the child of a whore.” In any case, the virgin birth motif is hardly the most important shared theme. The dying-and-rising god Dumuzi, or Tammuz, was called both a Shepherd and a Fisherman, he was killed and raised under “the great apple tree” just as Jesus was said to have been crucified on the Tree of Life in Eden, the festival of his death is at the same time as the Jewish Festival of the Booths and the festival of his resurrection is marked him his name on the Jewish calendar, he had a sacrament of bread and water similar to the bread and wine sacrament of Communion (plus his sister is a wine goddess and later iterations of the dying-and-rising god like Dionysus would use wine instead of water), he guarded the gates of heaven similar to St. Peter and only allowed the Kassite Adam, named Adapa, to enter heaven only after Adapa sympathized with his death, he was associated with the serpent and his companion was associated with the same serpent pole (asklepian/caduceus) that Moses used for healing and that Jesus referenced as a symbol of his resurrection, the Song of Solomon is made up of his sex poetry, he was ritually mourned by women at the Jerusalem Temple, and Jerome claimed that the shrine to Jesus in Bethlehem was at one time dedicated to Dumuzi-Adonis instead. Dumuzi’s father Enki created an immortal land like Eden, got sick after eating a “forbidden fruit”, was healed by a rib goddess, gave Dumuzi’s wife the Sumerian mi “the Knowledge of Good and Evil”, and built the ark that survived the flood. 5. The Gospels and epistles are not discounted as historical documents because they are religious documents. The degree of historicity afforded various statements in the Bible depends on how it accords with the contradicting details in other books from the Bible, reported facts in historical documents, and metaphorical fictions in mythological documents. Although Luke claims to be writing history, the author of Mark and Matthew make no similar claim, so it is the reader that is working under the assumption that the author intended those gospels to be historical non-fiction. |
96.29.176.92 ( talk) 06:48, 11 December 2016 (UTC) & update 04:57, 14 December 2016 (UTC)
Please do not use the shorthand 'Wiki' to refer to Wikipedia. You have done this more than once in the discussion of an RFC on earthquake prediction. The use of the shorthand Wiki to mean Wikipedia is very confusing, because there are many wikis and only one Wikipedia, and it is not always clear from context that you mean the one real Wikipedia. Please do not use the shorthand 'Wiki'. At best, it doesn't help, and it can show laziness. Robert McClenon ( talk) 16:42, 4 January 2017 (UTC)
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does not work unless mentioning is correct and the post has te editor's signature, at the same time. Some pings in EP cal for rfc might have been lost.-- 85.74.39.251 ( talk) 03:14, 24 January 2017 (UTC)
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About this survey: You can find more information about this project here or you can read the frequently asked questions. This survey is hosted by a third-party service and governed by this privacy statement. If you need additional help, or if you wish to opt-out of future communications about this survey, send an email through EmailUser function to User:EGalvez (WMF) or surveys@wikimedia.org. About the Wikimedia Foundation: The Wikimedia Foundation supports you by working on the software and technology to keep the sites fast, secure, and accessible, as well as supports Wikimedia programs and initiatives to expand access and support free knowledge globally. Thank you! -- EGalvez (WMF) ( talk) 08:25, 23 February 2017 (UTC)
Scholarly recpetion: I like the subsections "Rejection of alleged mythological parallels" and "Methodological concerns." I'd reinsert it rigth away, if it wasn't for the article size. But see User:Joshua Jonathan/List of Christ myth proponents for a start to split-off the list of proponents. Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 12:07, 21 March 2017 (UTC)
Jerry, a tip regarding diffs. Instead of doing the whole url like this:
just use the {{ diff2}} template like this:
Much easier, and much cleaner. Note that you need only the value of "&diff=". But don't take it from the url of the "next edit"; it needs to be from the url of the "prev" in the history. ~ J. Johnson (JJ) ( talk) 18:40, 11 April 2017 (UTC)
The green text formatting tq| on talk pages is intended for quoting other Wikipedia users, it's fine to quote source text in regular old black and white (or Italic). Also See: Template:Talkquote#Usage. Thank you for your contributions to Wikipedia, hope you're having a great day! -- Jobrot ( talk) 03:46, 30 July 2017 (UTC)
Here you added BC to a BCE article, one reason an editor changed it all to BC. Please follow MOS:ERA in the future. Thanks. Doug Weller talk 06:58, 19 September 2017 (UTC)
Hey, I noticed your formatting comment at The Exodus. If you want to make an = sign show up in a tq template, you can do it like this (just peek in the latest diff to see the code I wrote to make that work):
Israelites=Hyksos
The problem is that the = sign is used basically as a computer programming sign and confuses the computer. Putting something in <nowiki> makes the computer simply display the character and lets it know that it's not a part of the programming, but just part of what you're writing. Alephb ( talk) 00:22, 22 September 2017 (UTC)
Other ways to do this is using 1= or {{=}} where necessary: Israelites=Hyksos
, Israelites=Hyksos
(see source). —
Paleo
Neonate –
00:38, 22 September 2017 (UTC)
The article's talk page has broken off into new and bizarre directions. My advice is to ignore this. I'll get around to revising the subsection on the Hyksos/Akhnaten etc quite son, and look forward to your input at that point, but let's sit this dust storm out. PiCo ( talk) 11:23, 23 September 2017 (UTC)
Hi. You haven’t copied anything into it from other articles have you? Doug Weller talk 19:59, 9 October 2017 (UTC)
Null edit, original creation contained content from [[Foo]], [[Fee]], and [[Fii]], see those pages for attribution.
TonyBallioni (
talk)
20:25, 9 October 2017 (UTC)A discussion is taking place as to whether the article Ralph Ellis (author) is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia according to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted.
The article will be discussed at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Ralph Ellis (author) until a consensus is reached, and anyone is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on high-quality evidence and our policies and guidelines.
Users may edit the article during the discussion, including to improve the article to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the article-for-deletion notice from the top of the article. KDS4444 ( talk) 00:24, 12 October 2017 (UTC)
Ellis can no longer post to his talk page. As a courtesy to him, please don't post there. If you feel like answering my questions, feel free to do it on my talk page - if you don't, fine. Thanks. Doug Weller talk 17:17, 13 October 2017 (UTC)
Per Wikia you could create a new Wiki with one or more "articles" (also called "pages" in Wiki parlance).
Examples:
[[Wikia:Religion:Christ myth theory]]
[[Wikia:Pagan:Jesus as Myth]]
Per RationalWiki: Wiki § Wikia:
74.138.106.1 ( talk) 14:59, 17 October 2017 (UTC)
It has become clear to me that the goals that I have sought to achieve here, can only be realized to a very limited extent, and at great cost in terms of time and emotional energy.
Thanks to 74.138.106.1 for the suggestion that Wikia might be a better outlet. I am also very interested in www.infogalactic.com. They have some very interesting ideas about structuring the database to allow multiple points of view, and levels of RS, to coexist on the system. It remains to be seen whether they can attain critical mass to become a credible alternative; and also whether they can transcend their alt-right origins to become a general resource.
For now, of course, Wikipedia is the default go-to on the Internet for encyclopedia-style information.
At Doug Weller's talk page, I said "I think I'm done with Wikipedia editing for a very, very long time. Trying to get fair treatment for minority views (aka 'fringe') is a form of self-flagellation that I can do without.
That was a bit self-indulgent and theatrical, and I probably shouldn't have said it.
J. Johnson replied "As we have worked together in (I think!) improving Wikipedia,I would be a little sad to see you go."
That's very kind of you to say, JJ, and I really appreciate it. If you ever need me for anything, just post a note here on my talk page, and the system will ping me with an email.
As to how long my Wikibreak will be, let me just say that for a person locked into a negative addiction, even a day or two can seem like a very long time. My exile is self-imposed and I reserve the right to terminate it and resume editing at any time, for as long as Wikipedia admins and community will allow it.
I have given up all hope of successful earthquake prediction, and the tie-down brackets connecting my house to its foundation have just been installed. I should be ready to ride out the Cascadia Earthquake in style, when it happens. Good! -JJ
JJ -- about our article, perhaps you might be interested to take a look at The Exodus and The Exodus: sources and parallels. This pair of articles was the outcome of the discussion I was involved with at Talk:The Exodus. As I said, I consider that my opponents won the content dispute at 'The Exodus', but the end result is not too unfavorable. The main article is very short, and represents almost exclusively the mainstream view. The subsidiary article is almost as long, and includes some so-called "fringe" analysis. I think the EQ prediction article would be much more readable, and serve all users better, if it were organized along similar lines.
And, about Ellis -- Our wikipedia article about Ice age says "The causes of ice ages are not fully understood for either the large-scale ice age periods or the smaller ebb and flow of glacial–interglacial periods within an ice age." Following this summary, the article presents a couple of lame theories marked citation needed. The section Negative Feedback Processes, about mechanisms that might end an ice age and cause a return to interglacial conditions, is similarly inconclusive and poorly cited.
Ellis proposes a simple and robust mechanism, that low atmospheric CO2 at the end of an ice age leads to desertification and dust storms. The dust darkens the glacial cover, resulting in increased absorption of solar insolation, and ending the ice age.
Do you know if this idea has already been considered and rejected by specialists? So far, in the discussions about Ellis's idea, no editor has had anything to say aside from ad hominem insults. JerryRussell ( talk) 18:48, 17 October 2017 (UTC)
I agree that your comments are relevant to how we determine reliable sources. The question of whether Ellis's article represents "the truth" is a completely different question, which we as Wikipedia editors really aren't supposed to talk about.
which is exactly why we should only represent the most significant and widely accepted knowledge on topics, which are found in reliable secondary and tertiary sources (the encyclopedia is not a directory, research development platform or novel hypothesis promotion). Of course, if a best seller covers fringe topics but also has plenty of reviews (positive and negative) an article about it is very acceptable on notability grounds. —
Paleo
Neonate –
20:26, 17 October 2017 (UTC)
Sorry for the second arbitrary identation break in a row. I admit that Wikipedia can be a complex system. After this post I will not pursue this discussion to avoid running in circles (but am always glad to try to help on request). I'll end with a comment about the wikibreak notice: I assume that you're not threatening to leave as a pressure game, but that you feel an impass exists and are considering to spend your time elsewhere. This is respectable, although I would only like to remind that there are many less contentious topics and articles that are much easier to work on. Of course, if the main goal was to promote alternative views, Wikipedia is indeed not the place for it (no matter how tempting because of its strong presence).
You already mentioned that other wikis are available, some more adequate for this, along with the concern about them being considered less credible and less commonly used as reference.
I personally think that these stricter policies we have are also what makes Wikipedia a more popular reference that is trusted by many; although it has its fair share of criticism it is also commonly praised as a good encyclopedia. Its users must also learn basic critical thinking skills and to systematically go further than the in-article text to verify references when they can and assess reliability. Sites like Google and Facebook are now systematically linking to Wikipedia and/or providing article summaries. It's imperfect but works and hoaxes inserted by editors are rapidly corrected when exposed.
If you've been around a while, you may also have noticed that its policies have become better defined and more strongly enforced over time (a particularly obvious area being BLPs). As it became one of the most consulted, better known and fastest growing sites, there were pressing needs to address which prompted those changes to keep the general quality acceptable. These changes and experiments are still ongoing like
WP:ACTRIAL, RFCs, arbitration cases for behavioral issues, etc. All that makes Wikipedia stand apart from indiscriminate directories, sensationalist tabloids and "history" TV documentaries, etc.
Assessing what sources are reliable is also a growing challenge with the advent of predatory journals and indiscriminate indexes. Fortunately we can request help at
WP:RSN as previously mentioned. By working with others for help and to reach consensus while attempting to avoid wasting too much time on details or reiterating old threads, the system generally works. We all make mistakes and if we accept that and move on, progress occurs (see my ignorance
here today).
If you're leaving, I wish you farewell. As far as I know, you're not banned and can return anytime. In any case, perhaps that the way Wikipedia works can still result in a positive personal learning experience. —
Paleo
Neonate –
22:27, 17 October 2017 (UTC)
I assume that you're not threatening to leave as a pressure game, but that you feel an impass exists and are considering to spend your time elsewhere.Yes, that's right. My main purpose was to leave a message for IP74 and JJ about my intentions, before disappearing.
ad hominem insults" is itself ad hominem? As to Ellis' concept/theory: I think there has been work done on the effects of dust on glaciation (or deglaciation), but as I haven't followed the climate stuff for many years I can't really say. Nor whether anyone has specifically considered his claim. But it is unlikely any "qualified scientist" has bothered, as he is going against a whole lot of established science. (I see that one of the articles his article links to suggests that CO2 is not cause of global warming, but the result. Completely incredible.) You should keep in mind that simply being published in a journal (no matter how "reliable" or respected) is NOT evidence of "truth", but only a presentation for consideration. Neither Ellis nor his theory seems to have any significance or notability, not even to the point of being considered. Aside, that is, from the hothouse of GW deniers. Which is generally, and properly, discredited. ~ J. Johnson (JJ) ( talk) 23:55, 17 October 2017 (UTC)
Hello, JerryRussell. Voting in the 2017 Arbitration Committee elections is now open until 23.59 on Sunday, 10 December. All users who registered an account before Saturday, 28 October 2017, made at least 150 mainspace edits before Wednesday, 1 November 2017 and are not currently blocked are eligible to vote. Users with alternate accounts may only vote once.
The Arbitration Committee is the panel of editors responsible for conducting the Wikipedia arbitration process. It has the authority to impose binding solutions to disputes between editors, primarily for serious conduct disputes the community has been unable to resolve. This includes the authority to impose site bans, topic bans, editing restrictions, and other measures needed to maintain our editing environment. The arbitration policy describes the Committee's roles and responsibilities in greater detail.
If you wish to participate in the 2017 election, please review the candidates and submit your choices on the voting page. MediaWiki message delivery ( talk) 18:42, 3 December 2017 (UTC)
Hello Jerry, I found some of your work off Wikipedia interesting (particularly regarding the British Empire and the Irish Question, though I don't agree with your opposition to Marxism-Leninism. Lenin had no British links). You may find the following areas for investigation intriguing; the Grand Orient of Russia’s Peoples (whose members led the liberal February Revolution in Russia) and the fact that the last Secretary General of that group, Alexander Halpern, worked as a subversive spy for the Brits in the United States to get you into World War II (as part of British Security Co-ordination). The machinations of this group are laid out in the excellent book Desperate Deception: British Covert Operations in the United States, 1939–44. Obviously, the Empire is still up to its old tricks today with the likes of Christopher Steele trying to set the fires of a Russia vs. Anglophile America global conflict. Keep up the good work. Claíomh Solais ( talk) 00:07, 18 December 2017 (UTC)
Hello, JerryRussell. Voting in the 2018 Arbitration Committee elections is now open until 23.59 on Sunday, 3 December. All users who registered an account before Sunday, 28 October 2018, made at least 150 mainspace edits before Thursday, 1 November 2018 and are not currently blocked are eligible to vote. Users with alternate accounts may only vote once.
The Arbitration Committee is the panel of editors responsible for conducting the Wikipedia arbitration process. It has the authority to impose binding solutions to disputes between editors, primarily for serious conduct disputes the community has been unable to resolve. This includes the authority to impose site bans, topic bans, editing restrictions, and other measures needed to maintain our editing environment. The arbitration policy describes the Committee's roles and responsibilities in greater detail.
If you wish to participate in the 2018 election, please review the candidates and submit your choices on the voting page. MediaWiki message delivery ( talk) 18:42, 19 November 2018 (UTC)
Hi Jerry, I hope you have been doing well. I kind of hate to pull you back in here, but there's an issue at ANI (see this) where someone is claiming that despicable me ran you out of here. I could use your help here. Thanks. ♦ J. Johnson (JJ) ( talk) 00:02, 14 March 2020 (UTC)
Hello, I saw your recent edits on Herbert Wigwe. The edits that you restored are the work of a long-term vandal who uses self-published sources to promote hoaxes about nonexistent people. For example, see this article that implicates the fictional Edwin Symonowicz in the Sandy Hook school shooting, or this bit of silly nonsense. I suggest googling "Edwin Symonowicz" to see more of this. It should be obvious from articles such as "Minister of Arts and Culture, Mrs Hannatu Musawa Resign Now!!!" that 9newsng isn't a credible source. Spicy ( talk) 23:56, 14 February 2024 (UTC)
Hello, JerryRussell, and welcome to Wikipedia! Thank you for your contributions. I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are a few links to pages you might find helpful:
You may also want to take the Wikipedia Adventure, an interactive tour that will help you learn the basics of editing Wikipedia. You can visit The Teahouse to ask questions or seek help.
Please remember to sign your messages on talk pages by typing four tildes (~~~~); this will automatically insert your username and the date. If you need help, check out Wikipedia:Questions, ask me on my talk page, or , and a volunteer should respond shortly. Again, welcome! SwisterTwister talk 00:07, 19 March 2016 (UTC)
Stop treating Wikipedia like your blog. Just stop it. learn the policies and guidelines and work by them. Jytdog ( talk) 02:02, 27 May 2016 (UTC)
No. The concept of fringe is well defined at WP:FRINGE and Fringe theory. MjolnirPants Tell me all about it. 20:36, 27 May 2016 (UTC)
To answer this your question... (a) I almost always respond when someone pings me or asks me a question. (b) I have a habit of watching all old disputes where I previously commented, until these disputes are settled. (c) I am interested in certain subjects and watch certain pages. None of that is forbidden. To the contrary, a positive collaboration in the project (that is what I do) is encouraged. My very best wishes ( talk) 18:31, 19 June 2016 (UTC)
I note that you've left a query as to how to ping users from talk pages. Template:Reply to is the best starting point for learning the ins and outs of alerting other editors. It only works for those who have accounts, not for IP contributors. You don't need to ping editors from their own talk page as they will receive a notification of a message having been left on their talk page, or of having been 'mentioned' from the menu across the very top of the right hand side of the screen (Your user account → 2 boxes (alerts + messages) → Talk → Sandbox → et. al. In effect, pinging someone from their own talk page is redundant. If someone doesn't respond immediately, it's usually an indicator that they're busy in some other area of Wikipedia or may have logged out for the day. If there isn't a response for a while (I'm talking a couple of days), it's useful to check their editing history to see whether they've been editing at all since you left the message. If they haven't, just wait. If they have been editing, you may want to follow up with another reminder. Editors don't always respond if they have their own reasons for not wanting to respond. If it seems that you're being ignored, there's nothing to be done about it per WP:NOTCOMPULSORY. It shouldn't be considered an affront or a concern unless the behaviour fits WP:NOTHERE and the editor is obviously avoiding any attempts to respond to content concerns you may have. That's a different kettle of fish entirely. -- Iryna Harpy ( talk) 04:09, 20 June 2016 (UTC)
Thank you for stepping up and doing the reading on the Earthquake Prediction page's POV/neutrality issues. That discussion desperately needed another voice. Elriana ( talk) 23:21, 5 July 2016 (UTC)
I've been engaged in a discussion with @ J. Johnson: at Talk:Earthquake prediction, and it was going far off-topic with respect to the specific questions he asked at his RfC. He requested that we move the conversation here to my talk page.
I would like to make it clear that in general, I agree that many or perhaps all of the Greek IP editors' proposed changes to the article went well beyond NPOV, to the point of advocacy for the VAN method. I appreciate JJ's work in challenging the IP editors regarding those edits.
JJ, your comments to the IP editors (and to me) indicate that you believe the VAN method is pathological science, and should be treated according to WP:FRINGE policies. I feel there's considerable merit in that position. Various sources clearly state that the VAN group has mis-represented their results, that they have no valid methodology, and that they have unnecessarily caused public panic on numerous occasions. One source specifically states that they believe VAN is pathological.
But on the other hand, I also see that the VAN group have vigorously rebutted those accusations at every opportunity. No academic tribunals have been successfully instituted to redress alleged misconduct, and that they continue to publish their materials in highly respected journals. I think it's notable that a group from Peking has recently taken an interest in the VAN method (see [1] and [2]).
The Greek IP editors have also indicated their view that critics of VAN may be representing a government policy. I see some possible merit in that position as well.
As Wiki editors, I understand that it's not our job to determine Truth, but that our job is to determine what the RS say. For WP:FRINGE to apply, we would need to find that the RS indicate something approaching a scientific consensus that VAN is pathological. (This consensus wouldn't necessarily need to extend to the VAN group themselves, or their close associates). You could certainly make a case for that, and I would respect your opinion.
But, at this point, I still feel that the scientific jury hasn't collectively finished with this. Uyeda and the Japanese group can't be obviously dismissed as a dependent source, and now there is support from China as well. And the possibility of a COI on the part of VAN critics can't be dismissed out of hand, either. JerryRussell ( talk) 15:38, 7 July 2016 (UTC)
BTW, you said above that you saw "some possible merit" in the view that "critics of VAN may be representing a government policy
". How do you reckon that? In that the principal critics (Geller, Wyss, Mulargia, Gasperini, Kagan, Jackson, etc.) are not Greek, which government, and which policy, are they supposedly representing? ~
J. Johnson (JJ) (
talk)
22:08, 11 July 2016 (UTC)
critics of VAN may be representing a government policy" : This statement is not correct. There was no government policy in Greece against VAN. There was always a flow of research funds to the VAN team originally and to the Solid Earth Physics Institute later. Also there was support by the Hellenic Army with communication facilities, especially in the early period, and with provision of support personnel. However partisan politics were frequently mixed in the early controvesies and political influence and affiliations were covertly used by both sides, especially by the opponents of VAN. SV1XV ( talk) 16:24, 14 July 2016 (UTC)
The political and social situation is much more complicated. When there is an earthquate, the public is charging government officials with failure to act, or even with suppressing scientific information. But when the government announces that there is a possible impending EQ at a specific area (based on foreshocks) locals accuse the government that the announcement and associated publicity causes reduction to turism in the area. It's a no win situation.
Criticism on VAN within Greece was not politically motivated, it was motivated by competition for limited research funds.
About partisan politics now, you have to understand that in Greece people need political patronage even for minor issues. I cannot explain in detail how this affects the VAN controvesies of 1981-2000 without naming 2-3 living persons with good leftist political connections, so I have to end it here. I can only say that in technical terms the criticism was as vague as VAN's assumptions of SES propagation and spatial selectivity. When the critics were pressed for technical detail, they invariably switched their rhetoric to issues related to the usufulness of a successful prediction. After about 2000 all discussions have died out, the opponents have moved to other activities, Varotsos and Eftaxias are now retired and younger people simply ignore the issue. SV1XV ( talk) 02:27, 15 July 2016 (UTC)
In the above discussion on VAN method, I find that I am becoming confused about the role of personal opinions at Wikipedia. I have read the various policy and guidance pages, and find them confusing and contradictory. Some key principles are: (1) Wiki is not a soapbox, discussions should be focused on content; (2) Content is to be based on reliable sources; (3) User pages are primarily for discussion of user conduct issues; (4) "Meta" discussions about editing are OK in user space.
Has the discussion crossed over the line, from discussing what the sources say, to having a debate about our own opinions? I have been assuming that everyone participating in the discussion is comfortable about its appropriateness, but am not sure. Does anyone have any concerns that the discussion has been inappropriate or tendentious or sanctionable, especially on my part? JerryRussell ( talk) 20:40, 13 July 2016 (UTC)
Would anyone agree that an unavoidable Wiki editorial duty is the evaluation of reliable sources to determine whether those sources are biased? That is, perhaps, the essence of the discussion above: our views about whether VAN sources are biased and unreliable, and conversely whether the critics might be similarly biased because of disclosed or undisclosed COI. JerryRussell ( talk) 21:08, 13 July 2016 (UTC)
an unavoidable Wiki editorial duty" to evaluate (and weigh) sources. Not just for "bias", but to evaluate their notability, whether the view is representative of the mainstream view, etc. By sharing our views on such matters we (hopefully) improve those views. No problem if we have go around a few times to get to the bottom of something; in the end it means our opinions are better founded. (And well screwed-in?) The ban against expression of personal opinions can't be taken too strictly (as all judgements are, in the end, opinion), and is mainly about using WP space more like a blog. I don't think there is any problem where we are discussing why we have differents about the sources, etc. It is to be expected that no two WP editors will come up with a single, consistent POV on the first read. Discussing these is how we sort these out and move toward a single voice. ~ J. Johnson (JJ) ( talk) 22:18, 13 July 2016 (UTC)
OK, thanks! I really do want to do the work, as I'm very curious to know if there's any possible way to forecast earthquakes here in the Cascadia subduction zone. Or, it would also be useful to be able to predict if there's Not going to be an earthquake here anytime soon. (whatever else you can say about Omerbashich, that's one angle about his approach that I like.)
Otherwise I'm going to have to stop procrastinating on another project: beef up my house! Helical foundation anchors? Better facilities for duck-and-cover? JerryRussell ( talk) 21:43, 14 July 2016 (UTC)
Hey! I was actually out there last month training for how to unmuck the west coast when Cascadia goes bananas and pull you guys out of burning buildings and such.
Anyway, about the Nehlen article, I reverted an edit you did there. Please review WP:BLP. For legal and ethical reasons, Wikipedia has pretty strict rules about what goes into a biography of a living person, and it's probably going to take more than a local newspaper article to meet those. If you have any questions, feel free to respond on my talk. TimothyJosephWood 00:00, 16 July 2016 (UTC)
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Do you use:
Die Frage, mit der sich unsere Zeit so viel beschäftigt hat ob nämlich Dieser, ob Jesus der historische Christus sey, haben wir damit beantwortet dass wir zeigten, dass Alles, was der historische Christus ist, was von ihm gesagt wird, was wir von ihm wissen, der Welt der Vorstellung und zwar der christlichen Vorstellung angehört, also auch mit einem Menschen, der der wirklichen Welt angehört Nichts zu thun hat. Die Frage ist damit beantwortet, dass sie für alle Zukunft gestrichen ist. (Image of Title page & p. 308 at Google Books)
{{
cite book}}
: External link in |quote=
(
help)Image of p. 157 at Google Books.
{{
cite book}}
: External link in |quote=
(
help)Many positions accept the historical existence of a human being who called himself Jesus. These include the positions of Remsburg, Frazer, John Robertson, Herbert George Wood and GA Wells.
Wood, Herbert George (1934).
Christianity and the nature of history. University Press. p. 40. [T]he sociological fashion reflected in the rise of Formgeschichte lends colour to Christ-myth theories and indeed to all theories which regard Jesus as an historical but insignificant figure.
Dodd, Charles Harold (1938).
History and the Gospel. Charles Scribner's Sons. pp. 16–17. ...a religion may be based upon, the teachings of a sage or holy man, without any especial reference to the events of his life [...] in the period to which the origins of Christianity are to be assigned, ...were groups which had relations with the Jewish religion, and some of these last came to identify their Saviour-god with the Jewish Messiah, and created for him a mythical embodiment in a figure bearing the cult-name 'Jesus', derived from a Hebrew word meaning 'salvation'. Or alternatively, they seized upon the report of an obscure Jewish holy-man bearing this name, and arbitrarily attached the 'cult-myth' to him.
Robertson, Archibald (1946).
Jesus: Myth or History?. International Publishers. p. 44. Robertson is prepared to concede the possibility of an historical Jesus perhaps more than one having contributed something to the Gospel story. "A teacher or teachers named Jesus, or several differently named teachers called Messiahs " (of whom many are on record) may have uttered some of the sayings in the Gospels. (J. M. Robertson, Christianity and Mythology, revised edition, p. 125)
Mead, G. R. S. (8 November 2013). Did Jesus Live 100 B.C.?. Jazzybee Verlag. ISBN 978-3-8496-4051-4.
96.29.176.92 ( talk) 05:22, 9 September 2016 (UTC) & link 14:20, 9 September 2016 (UTC)
Evans, Craig A. (26 September 2008).
Fabricating Jesus: How Modern Scholars Distort the Gospels. InterVarsity Press. p. 25.
ISBN
978-0-8308-3355-9. [R. M.] Price thinks the evidence is so weak for the historical Jesus that we cannot know anything certain or meaningful about him. He is even willing to entertain the possibility that there never was a historical Jesus.
Eddy, Paul Rhodes; Boyd, Gregory A. (1 August 2007).
The Jesus Legend: A Case for the Historical Reliability of the Synoptic Jesus Tradition. Baker Academic. pp. 24–25.
ISBN
978-0-8010-3114-4. Scholars such as Bruno Bauer, Arthur Drews, and G. A. Wells have argued that the Jesus tradition is virtually—perhaps entirely—fictional in nature ...this view holds that we have no good grounds for thinking any aspect of the Jesus narrative is rooted in history, including the very existence of an actual historical person named Jesus. Some scholars we could include in this category, such as Robert Price, would back off this thesis slightly and argue that we simply lack sufficient information to decide whether a historical Jesus existed. Here, a sort of "Jesus agnosticism" emerges.
Eddy, Paul Rhodes; Boyd, Gregory A. (1 August 2007).
The Jesus Legend: A Case for the Historical Reliability of the Synoptic Jesus Tradition. Baker Academic. p. 165.
ISBN
978-0-8010-3114-4. [Some Christ myth theorists] make much of the claim that there is little or no credible information about the historical Jesus to be found in first—and second—century non-Christian sources or in Paul, the earliest Christian source. Surely if a miracle-working prophet like the Jesus of the Gospels actually existed, it is argued, Paul and pagan contemporaries would have mentioned his feats and his teachings. Instead, they argue, we find a virtual silence. And this strongly suggests that the miracle-working teacher of the Gospels is mostly, if not entirely, legendary.
Doherty, Earl (September 2009).
Jesus: Neither God Nor Man - The Case for a Mythical Jesus. Age of Reason Publications. pp. vii–viii.
ISBN
978-0-9689259-2-8. [The Mythical Jesus viewpoint is] the theory that no historical Jesus worthy of the name existed, that Christianity began with a belief in a spiritual, mythical figure, that the Gospels are essentially allegory and fiction, and [also rejecting the
Q source advanced by Wells] that no single identifiable person lay at the root of the Galilean preaching tradition
96.29.176.92 ( talk) 19:59, 27 October 2016 (UTC) & update 07:00, 28 October 2016 (UTC)
Per,
Thompson makes several clarifications in the comments section. 96.29.176.92 ( talk) 04:21, 18 September 2016 (UTC)
"The peoples of Islam will always be closer to us than, for example, France, in spite of the fact that we are related by blood. It is a tragedy that France has consistently degenerated in the course of centuries and that her upper classes have been perverted by the Jews. France is now condemned to the pursuit of a Jewish policy."
Here is the true QUOTE, wrote by Hitler in his political testament : https://archive.org/stream/PoliticalTestamentOfAdolfHitler/PTAH_djvu.txt
Stop denying this. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 176.190.253.53 ( talk) 20:46, 18 September 2016 (UTC)
Per Talk:Christ myth theory § Citations Demonstrating Scholarly Support for the CMT
I found one for Thompson. 96.29.176.92 ( talk) 04:39, 19 September 2016 (UTC)
Hi Jerry. Look, I'm sorry if I have made you angry. Please note that I, too, am pretty exasperated by some of the proceedings, but I think we should be able to sort it out, on the basis of shared purposes, etc. (Note that I have no such expectation re our SPE, for lack of shared purpose.)
I would like to offer a suggestion. I see that (like many other editors) you often have several edits in quick succession. While that certainly doesn't hurt your edit count, it can obfuscate what is going on, and where. I think there is much to said for composing one's remarks off-line, giving them a bit of rest for reflection, and then pasting them in. It also avoids confusion where someone starts replying before your comments are settled.Of course, I am a little swayed by my context, where I am often interrupted, but still, you might find off-line composing a little less frenetic.
Yeah, slide rules are cool. I still use one (well, in theory). But I think we're giving away our age. ~ J. Johnson (JJ) ( talk) 23:55, 10 October 2016 (UTC)
yes in my view it was tacky. in general it is bad form to move other people's comments without their permission. Jytdog ( talk) 21:31, 17 October 2016 (UTC)
FYI:
Ellegård, Alvar (2008).
"Theologians as historians - Comments by Birger Olsson". Scandia: Tidskrift för historisk forskning (59): 193–196. Olsson devotes, quite unnecessarily, half his space to a quite fair summary of my hypothesis. That leaves him only a page or so to criticize it. (Reply by Alvar Ellegård, p. 199)
-
96.29.176.92 (
talk)
21:06, 21 October 2016 (UTC)
Ehrman-Price Debate #2: Price’s Opening Address at vridar.org: Per the comments section, see Tim Bos, he notes that Ehrman used the Compatibility Thesis to refute Mythicism in a recent debate with Price. Its utterly ridiculous, but is broadly parroted. — 96.29.176.92 ( talk) 05:16, 25 October 2016 (UTC)
... has obviously failed, as it must in a place where the power is controlled by a group of people who oppose this, similar to how governance is dominated by oligarchy. Established power does not want to be called out or limited, and will do what needs to be done to block reforms like that. Meanwhile, i'm being pilloried at WP:AE in part for what i spoke in the threaded discussion there about the fringe guideline. Apparently it's evidence sufficient to add up to a siteban for me because i speak critically about patterns i see within Wikipedia. What's the best description of such a dynamic if it were a state governance setup? I'd say it's not the best nor is it a real participatory democracy, but more like the appearance of a place where ideas matter but in which there is a predetermined outcome. Anyway, cheers. I loved the ideals of Wikipedia but can't stand the practice that i ended up seeing. What really happens is so far different from what's described by the policies. SageRad ( talk) 16:42, 25 October 2016 (UTC)
Thanks for your welcoming comments at "Ask a seismologist", which take the edge off of IP202's implication that scientists commenting on WP are low-status. We are really lucky if he will comment, and hopefully everyone will show appreciation. ~ J. Johnson (JJ) ( talk) 22:10, 26 October 2016 (UTC)
[Per the writings of the New Testament] the earliest writings that survive are the genuine letters of Paul. They were written some twenty to thirty years after the death of Jesus. Yet Paul was not a follower of Jesus during his lifetime; nor does he ever claim to have seen Jesus during his ministry. Moreover, Paul's letters were written not to people who lived in the Jewish homeland or who would have heard reports about Jesus from his own time. Instead, his letters were written to new converts who lived in far-off regions of the Roman Empire, western Turkey, Greece, and even Rome itself. Although they are the earliest version of the story, they nonetheless stand at some distance temporally and culturally from the world of Jesus. Even so, they clearly reflect some information about the life of Jesus based on the stories that circulated orally about him.
Interesting geographical elaboration. - 96.29.176.92 ( talk) 16:44, 31 October 2016 (UTC)
Hello, JerryRussell. Voting in the 2016 Arbitration Committee elections is open from Monday, 00:00, 21 November through Sunday, 23:59, 4 December to all unblocked users who have registered an account before Wednesday, 00:00, 28 October 2016 and have made at least 150 mainspace edits before Sunday, 00:00, 1 November 2016.
The Arbitration Committee is the panel of editors responsible for conducting the Wikipedia arbitration process. It has the authority to impose binding solutions to disputes between editors, primarily for serious conduct disputes the community has been unable to resolve. This includes the authority to impose site bans, topic bans, editing restrictions, and other measures needed to maintain our editing environment. The arbitration policy describes the Committee's roles and responsibilities in greater detail.
If you wish to participate in the 2016 election, please review the candidates' statements and submit your choices on the voting page. MediaWiki message delivery ( talk) 22:08, 21 November 2016 (UTC)
Jerry. The Terms of Use say:
The community – the network of users who are constantly building and using the various sites or Projects – are the principal means through which the goals of the mission are achieved. The community contributes to and helps govern our sites. The community undertakes the critical function of creating and enforcing policies for the specific Project editions (such as the different language editions for the Wikipedia Project or the Wikimedia Commons multi-lingual edition).
it also says:
The Wikimedia community and its members may also take action when so allowed by the community or Foundation policies applicable to the specific Project edition, including but not limited to warning, investigating, blocking, or banning users who violate those policies. You agree to comply with the final decisions of dispute resolution bodies that are established by the community for the specific Project editions (such as arbitration committees); these decisions may include sanctions as set out by the policy of the specific Project edition.
This is the en-wiki project, governed by the en-wiki community.
The relevant policy bits here are:
-- Jytdog ( talk) 19:53, 2 December 2016 (UTC)
December 2016/January 2017 Volume 37 Number 1
Mythicism By Robert Stewart, Ph.D. and Marilyn Stewart, M.Div.
{{
cite web}}
: External link in |quote=
(
help)Jefferey Querner
Johnny Walker (December 15, 2013). "Jesus Never Existed - How Do We Respond? - 4 Questions to Ask". Freedom in Orthodoxy?.
Response by Jefferey Querner (January 1, 2014) - I always find it funny when someone starts off by attacking mythicists as fringe conspiracy theorists
|
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1. I have been studying Christianity for about 14 years. I believed in a historical Jesus for about half that time (as well as before I started studying the subject). I have read over 100 scholarly books on the topic and own a bookcase full of books dedicated to that topic alone. I changed my mind not because of any scholarship but because I discovered the Sepher Toledot Yeshu, which placed Jesus in the 1st century B.C. Seeing the earliest version of the Toledot was not derivative of the gospels and finding parallel confirmation in other sources such as Epiphanius and Mara Bar Serapion, I came to the conclusion that Jesus really lived in the first century B.C. and that the gospel Jesus was a myth based on the church’s reaction to the First Jewish-Roman war. 2. The scholars I most align myself with are G.R.S. Mead, Robert M. Price, Earl Doherty, John Dominic Crossan, Delbert Burkett, Richard Friedman, and Israel Finkelstein. I am also a fan of Rudolf Bultmann, Alvar Ellegard, Robert Funk, Albert Schweitzer, Paula Fredriksen, William G. Dever, Helmut Koester, Randel McCraw Helms, Joseph B. Tyson, Robert Eisenman, Margaret Barker, Hyam Maccoby and Joseph Campbell. Yes, I know Crossan believes in a historical Jesus, but that doesn’t mean that his scholarship, along with that of the Jesus Seminar, hasn’t done a great deal of undercutting of the historical underpinnings of the gospel Jesus by explaining why some 80% of Jesus’ sayings could not or probably do not go back to him. It really should not be at all surprising that people who decide to dedicate their lives to studying Christianity would have a bias against mythicism. Most Biblical scholars start off as Biblical Literalists who want to study the Word of God and eventually come around to the truth that the Bible is a human work full of contradictions and interpolations, so it’s hardly surprising that the idea that Jesus never existed would be a bridge too far. 3. That’s easy. Just look at the epistles, excluding the second century Pastorals, and you can see that nothing in them identifies Jesus as a first century itinerant healer or the originator of the teachings being promulgated. Jesus’ “brothers” in Mark’s gospel can be shown to be references to famous first century Galilean figures, showing it to be a story of fiction and not a mythologized bibliography. The canonical texts were chosen in lieu of the decision to regard the Apostolic Church as founded by the gospel Jesus. Other apocryphal texts such as the Didakhe fail to mention Jesus a itinerant healer/preacher as well and the The Sherpherd of Hermas, despite being immense, amazingly fails to even refer to Jesus by name! Other Gnostic texts like Gospel of Judas, which portrays Judas as Jesus’ twin and the only person to truly understand him, are obviously meant to be read as fiction. As to the credibility of a religion starting without a founder, most scholars generally agree that Judaism did not really originate with Moses but came about much later, probably with the canonization of the Bible during Ezra’s time. Apart from that, did Hinduism need a historical originator? Neither Buddha nor Zoroaster can be pinned down to a particular time period with any certainty. Just lately a Buddhist shrine in Nepal was dated 300 years before the generally accepted date for Buddha. Finally, one must ask about the historical likelihood that a localized peasant sect could grow into what became Christainity without overtaking a larger movement, such as the Essenes, in the process. Are there any other religions known in the world that began with someone as low on the totem pole as a Galilean peasant? I think my own theory, that Jesus can be identified with a priest from the Onias dynasty, which owned the rights to the Temple Mount before they were ousted from power, does better to account for how a religious movement could maintain the kind of early popularity necessary to become a major religion. 4. I have read the parallel texts and have written extensively on them. I should add that I do agree that Osiris and Mithras in particular are often overblown and mischaracterized by mythicists. Mithras did not die and come back and Osiris’ resurrection is done in a way that does not particularly parallel Jesus. Mythicists should instead focus their attention to Sumerian and other Mesopotamian texts, whose Biblical parallels with the Garden of Eden, the Fall of Man, Cain and Abel, Noah’s Ark, and the death and resurrection of the fertility god are undeniable. I am always shocked at how little is known among Biblical scholars about the Mesopotamian texts with Biblical parallels considering they really should be required reading for anyone serious about studying the Bible. Ezekiel places the dying-and-rising god Tammuz as being worshiped by women at the Jerusalem Temple itself. If linking a dying-and-rising god to the time of Ezekiel’s composition isn’t good enough because it isn’t close enough to the first century A.D., we can look to Jerome, who said that “From Hadrian’s time [135 A.D.] until the reign of Constantine, for about 180 years…Bethlehem, now ours, and the earth’s, most sacred spot…was overshadowed by a grove of Tammuz, which is Adonis, and in the cave where the infant Messiah once cried, the paramour of Venus was bewailed.” Are we to believe the same pagans who persecuted Christianity stole the site and rededicated it to a much older god who just so happened to also be depicted as a shepherd and a fisherman, whose name Tammuz means “True Son”, and whose Eucharistic meal consisted of bread and wine, all from within a town that just coincidentally means “House of Bread”? The talisman depicting Orpheus becoming an avatar of the god Bacchus by being crucified beneath the seven planets, as shown on the cover of Freke and Gandy’s “The Jesus Mysteries,” is proof positive of correspondence with Christianity. Finally, I believe pretty much all Orthodox Jews would take issue with the assumption that the authors of the New Testament were “thoroughly Jewish” considering some verses such as blood becoming wine or Paul wishing that the “men of the circumcision” would just go all the way and castrate themselves. The New Testament itself is written in Greek, not Herbew or Aramaic. Plenty of non-mythicist scholars have drawn parallels between the teachings attributed to Jesus and the Greek philosophies of Cynicism and Stoicism. |
Stephen J. Bedard (26 August 2016). "5 Questions to Ask Jesus Mythicists". Hope's Reason.
Response by Jefferey Querner (September 1, 2016) - My thoughts on “5 Questions to Ask Jesus Mythicists”
|
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1. Reading about mythology has been a hobby of mine for over 20 years, so much so that I consider myself an amateur mythologist, especially in regards to ancient Near East mythology. I have a Masters in English Literature, took courses on Arthurian legend, and I did my thesis on the different stages of mythological development. 2. I would assume that they would tell you that the question is beyond the scope of ancient history in general and that you should contact someone who has researched the historical evidence behind that specific question. 3. Josephus scholars who believed the Testimonium to be a complete forgery include: Schurer, Niese, Norden, Zeitlin, Lewy, Juster, von Dobschutz, Karl Kautsky, S.G.F. Brandon, Charles Guignebert, and Twelftree. 4. The question brings an erroneous assumption. It is equivalent to asking “Why do Christians say Jesus was virgin born when the Gospel of Mark says that his mother believed her son to a mortal crazy person?” (Mark 3:21). The answer to both questions is that different sources provide contradictory answers. I could bring up Perseus’ mother, who was impregnated by a shower of golden light, but really the whole argument misses the point. The motif of virgin birth is symbolic of single motherhood. The Jewish tradition, as handed down by the Talmud, the Toledot and Celsus make a great deal about Jesus being a bastard, and this motif, whether historical or not, is in turn implied by the single motherhood in Mark, the fact that the four women mentioned in Matthew’s genealogy are notable for having questionable purity, and the saying recorded by the Gospel of Thomas: “Whoever knows the father and the mother will be called the child of a whore.” In any case, the virgin birth motif is hardly the most important shared theme. The dying-and-rising god Dumuzi, or Tammuz, was called both a Shepherd and a Fisherman, he was killed and raised under “the great apple tree” just as Jesus was said to have been crucified on the Tree of Life in Eden, the festival of his death is at the same time as the Jewish Festival of the Booths and the festival of his resurrection is marked him his name on the Jewish calendar, he had a sacrament of bread and water similar to the bread and wine sacrament of Communion (plus his sister is a wine goddess and later iterations of the dying-and-rising god like Dionysus would use wine instead of water), he guarded the gates of heaven similar to St. Peter and only allowed the Kassite Adam, named Adapa, to enter heaven only after Adapa sympathized with his death, he was associated with the serpent and his companion was associated with the same serpent pole (asklepian/caduceus) that Moses used for healing and that Jesus referenced as a symbol of his resurrection, the Song of Solomon is made up of his sex poetry, he was ritually mourned by women at the Jerusalem Temple, and Jerome claimed that the shrine to Jesus in Bethlehem was at one time dedicated to Dumuzi-Adonis instead. Dumuzi’s father Enki created an immortal land like Eden, got sick after eating a “forbidden fruit”, was healed by a rib goddess, gave Dumuzi’s wife the Sumerian mi “the Knowledge of Good and Evil”, and built the ark that survived the flood. 5. The Gospels and epistles are not discounted as historical documents because they are religious documents. The degree of historicity afforded various statements in the Bible depends on how it accords with the contradicting details in other books from the Bible, reported facts in historical documents, and metaphorical fictions in mythological documents. Although Luke claims to be writing history, the author of Mark and Matthew make no similar claim, so it is the reader that is working under the assumption that the author intended those gospels to be historical non-fiction. |
96.29.176.92 ( talk) 06:48, 11 December 2016 (UTC) & update 04:57, 14 December 2016 (UTC)
Please do not use the shorthand 'Wiki' to refer to Wikipedia. You have done this more than once in the discussion of an RFC on earthquake prediction. The use of the shorthand Wiki to mean Wikipedia is very confusing, because there are many wikis and only one Wikipedia, and it is not always clear from context that you mean the one real Wikipedia. Please do not use the shorthand 'Wiki'. At best, it doesn't help, and it can show laziness. Robert McClenon ( talk) 16:42, 4 January 2017 (UTC)
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does not work unless mentioning is correct and the post has te editor's signature, at the same time. Some pings in EP cal for rfc might have been lost.-- 85.74.39.251 ( talk) 03:14, 24 January 2017 (UTC)
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About this survey: You can find more information about this project here or you can read the frequently asked questions. This survey is hosted by a third-party service and governed by this privacy statement. If you need additional help, or if you wish to opt-out of future communications about this survey, send an email through EmailUser function to User:EGalvez (WMF) or surveys@wikimedia.org. About the Wikimedia Foundation: The Wikimedia Foundation supports you by working on the software and technology to keep the sites fast, secure, and accessible, as well as supports Wikimedia programs and initiatives to expand access and support free knowledge globally. Thank you! -- EGalvez (WMF) ( talk) 08:25, 23 February 2017 (UTC)
Scholarly recpetion: I like the subsections "Rejection of alleged mythological parallels" and "Methodological concerns." I'd reinsert it rigth away, if it wasn't for the article size. But see User:Joshua Jonathan/List of Christ myth proponents for a start to split-off the list of proponents. Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 12:07, 21 March 2017 (UTC)
Jerry, a tip regarding diffs. Instead of doing the whole url like this:
just use the {{ diff2}} template like this:
Much easier, and much cleaner. Note that you need only the value of "&diff=". But don't take it from the url of the "next edit"; it needs to be from the url of the "prev" in the history. ~ J. Johnson (JJ) ( talk) 18:40, 11 April 2017 (UTC)
The green text formatting tq| on talk pages is intended for quoting other Wikipedia users, it's fine to quote source text in regular old black and white (or Italic). Also See: Template:Talkquote#Usage. Thank you for your contributions to Wikipedia, hope you're having a great day! -- Jobrot ( talk) 03:46, 30 July 2017 (UTC)
Here you added BC to a BCE article, one reason an editor changed it all to BC. Please follow MOS:ERA in the future. Thanks. Doug Weller talk 06:58, 19 September 2017 (UTC)
Hey, I noticed your formatting comment at The Exodus. If you want to make an = sign show up in a tq template, you can do it like this (just peek in the latest diff to see the code I wrote to make that work):
Israelites=Hyksos
The problem is that the = sign is used basically as a computer programming sign and confuses the computer. Putting something in <nowiki> makes the computer simply display the character and lets it know that it's not a part of the programming, but just part of what you're writing. Alephb ( talk) 00:22, 22 September 2017 (UTC)
Other ways to do this is using 1= or {{=}} where necessary: Israelites=Hyksos
, Israelites=Hyksos
(see source). —
Paleo
Neonate –
00:38, 22 September 2017 (UTC)
The article's talk page has broken off into new and bizarre directions. My advice is to ignore this. I'll get around to revising the subsection on the Hyksos/Akhnaten etc quite son, and look forward to your input at that point, but let's sit this dust storm out. PiCo ( talk) 11:23, 23 September 2017 (UTC)
Hi. You haven’t copied anything into it from other articles have you? Doug Weller talk 19:59, 9 October 2017 (UTC)
Null edit, original creation contained content from [[Foo]], [[Fee]], and [[Fii]], see those pages for attribution.
TonyBallioni (
talk)
20:25, 9 October 2017 (UTC)A discussion is taking place as to whether the article Ralph Ellis (author) is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia according to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted.
The article will be discussed at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Ralph Ellis (author) until a consensus is reached, and anyone is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on high-quality evidence and our policies and guidelines.
Users may edit the article during the discussion, including to improve the article to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the article-for-deletion notice from the top of the article. KDS4444 ( talk) 00:24, 12 October 2017 (UTC)
Ellis can no longer post to his talk page. As a courtesy to him, please don't post there. If you feel like answering my questions, feel free to do it on my talk page - if you don't, fine. Thanks. Doug Weller talk 17:17, 13 October 2017 (UTC)
Per Wikia you could create a new Wiki with one or more "articles" (also called "pages" in Wiki parlance).
Examples:
[[Wikia:Religion:Christ myth theory]]
[[Wikia:Pagan:Jesus as Myth]]
Per RationalWiki: Wiki § Wikia:
74.138.106.1 ( talk) 14:59, 17 October 2017 (UTC)
It has become clear to me that the goals that I have sought to achieve here, can only be realized to a very limited extent, and at great cost in terms of time and emotional energy.
Thanks to 74.138.106.1 for the suggestion that Wikia might be a better outlet. I am also very interested in www.infogalactic.com. They have some very interesting ideas about structuring the database to allow multiple points of view, and levels of RS, to coexist on the system. It remains to be seen whether they can attain critical mass to become a credible alternative; and also whether they can transcend their alt-right origins to become a general resource.
For now, of course, Wikipedia is the default go-to on the Internet for encyclopedia-style information.
At Doug Weller's talk page, I said "I think I'm done with Wikipedia editing for a very, very long time. Trying to get fair treatment for minority views (aka 'fringe') is a form of self-flagellation that I can do without.
That was a bit self-indulgent and theatrical, and I probably shouldn't have said it.
J. Johnson replied "As we have worked together in (I think!) improving Wikipedia,I would be a little sad to see you go."
That's very kind of you to say, JJ, and I really appreciate it. If you ever need me for anything, just post a note here on my talk page, and the system will ping me with an email.
As to how long my Wikibreak will be, let me just say that for a person locked into a negative addiction, even a day or two can seem like a very long time. My exile is self-imposed and I reserve the right to terminate it and resume editing at any time, for as long as Wikipedia admins and community will allow it.
I have given up all hope of successful earthquake prediction, and the tie-down brackets connecting my house to its foundation have just been installed. I should be ready to ride out the Cascadia Earthquake in style, when it happens. Good! -JJ
JJ -- about our article, perhaps you might be interested to take a look at The Exodus and The Exodus: sources and parallels. This pair of articles was the outcome of the discussion I was involved with at Talk:The Exodus. As I said, I consider that my opponents won the content dispute at 'The Exodus', but the end result is not too unfavorable. The main article is very short, and represents almost exclusively the mainstream view. The subsidiary article is almost as long, and includes some so-called "fringe" analysis. I think the EQ prediction article would be much more readable, and serve all users better, if it were organized along similar lines.
And, about Ellis -- Our wikipedia article about Ice age says "The causes of ice ages are not fully understood for either the large-scale ice age periods or the smaller ebb and flow of glacial–interglacial periods within an ice age." Following this summary, the article presents a couple of lame theories marked citation needed. The section Negative Feedback Processes, about mechanisms that might end an ice age and cause a return to interglacial conditions, is similarly inconclusive and poorly cited.
Ellis proposes a simple and robust mechanism, that low atmospheric CO2 at the end of an ice age leads to desertification and dust storms. The dust darkens the glacial cover, resulting in increased absorption of solar insolation, and ending the ice age.
Do you know if this idea has already been considered and rejected by specialists? So far, in the discussions about Ellis's idea, no editor has had anything to say aside from ad hominem insults. JerryRussell ( talk) 18:48, 17 October 2017 (UTC)
I agree that your comments are relevant to how we determine reliable sources. The question of whether Ellis's article represents "the truth" is a completely different question, which we as Wikipedia editors really aren't supposed to talk about.
which is exactly why we should only represent the most significant and widely accepted knowledge on topics, which are found in reliable secondary and tertiary sources (the encyclopedia is not a directory, research development platform or novel hypothesis promotion). Of course, if a best seller covers fringe topics but also has plenty of reviews (positive and negative) an article about it is very acceptable on notability grounds. —
Paleo
Neonate –
20:26, 17 October 2017 (UTC)
Sorry for the second arbitrary identation break in a row. I admit that Wikipedia can be a complex system. After this post I will not pursue this discussion to avoid running in circles (but am always glad to try to help on request). I'll end with a comment about the wikibreak notice: I assume that you're not threatening to leave as a pressure game, but that you feel an impass exists and are considering to spend your time elsewhere. This is respectable, although I would only like to remind that there are many less contentious topics and articles that are much easier to work on. Of course, if the main goal was to promote alternative views, Wikipedia is indeed not the place for it (no matter how tempting because of its strong presence).
You already mentioned that other wikis are available, some more adequate for this, along with the concern about them being considered less credible and less commonly used as reference.
I personally think that these stricter policies we have are also what makes Wikipedia a more popular reference that is trusted by many; although it has its fair share of criticism it is also commonly praised as a good encyclopedia. Its users must also learn basic critical thinking skills and to systematically go further than the in-article text to verify references when they can and assess reliability. Sites like Google and Facebook are now systematically linking to Wikipedia and/or providing article summaries. It's imperfect but works and hoaxes inserted by editors are rapidly corrected when exposed.
If you've been around a while, you may also have noticed that its policies have become better defined and more strongly enforced over time (a particularly obvious area being BLPs). As it became one of the most consulted, better known and fastest growing sites, there were pressing needs to address which prompted those changes to keep the general quality acceptable. These changes and experiments are still ongoing like
WP:ACTRIAL, RFCs, arbitration cases for behavioral issues, etc. All that makes Wikipedia stand apart from indiscriminate directories, sensationalist tabloids and "history" TV documentaries, etc.
Assessing what sources are reliable is also a growing challenge with the advent of predatory journals and indiscriminate indexes. Fortunately we can request help at
WP:RSN as previously mentioned. By working with others for help and to reach consensus while attempting to avoid wasting too much time on details or reiterating old threads, the system generally works. We all make mistakes and if we accept that and move on, progress occurs (see my ignorance
here today).
If you're leaving, I wish you farewell. As far as I know, you're not banned and can return anytime. In any case, perhaps that the way Wikipedia works can still result in a positive personal learning experience. —
Paleo
Neonate –
22:27, 17 October 2017 (UTC)
I assume that you're not threatening to leave as a pressure game, but that you feel an impass exists and are considering to spend your time elsewhere.Yes, that's right. My main purpose was to leave a message for IP74 and JJ about my intentions, before disappearing.
ad hominem insults" is itself ad hominem? As to Ellis' concept/theory: I think there has been work done on the effects of dust on glaciation (or deglaciation), but as I haven't followed the climate stuff for many years I can't really say. Nor whether anyone has specifically considered his claim. But it is unlikely any "qualified scientist" has bothered, as he is going against a whole lot of established science. (I see that one of the articles his article links to suggests that CO2 is not cause of global warming, but the result. Completely incredible.) You should keep in mind that simply being published in a journal (no matter how "reliable" or respected) is NOT evidence of "truth", but only a presentation for consideration. Neither Ellis nor his theory seems to have any significance or notability, not even to the point of being considered. Aside, that is, from the hothouse of GW deniers. Which is generally, and properly, discredited. ~ J. Johnson (JJ) ( talk) 23:55, 17 October 2017 (UTC)
Hello, JerryRussell. Voting in the 2017 Arbitration Committee elections is now open until 23.59 on Sunday, 10 December. All users who registered an account before Saturday, 28 October 2017, made at least 150 mainspace edits before Wednesday, 1 November 2017 and are not currently blocked are eligible to vote. Users with alternate accounts may only vote once.
The Arbitration Committee is the panel of editors responsible for conducting the Wikipedia arbitration process. It has the authority to impose binding solutions to disputes between editors, primarily for serious conduct disputes the community has been unable to resolve. This includes the authority to impose site bans, topic bans, editing restrictions, and other measures needed to maintain our editing environment. The arbitration policy describes the Committee's roles and responsibilities in greater detail.
If you wish to participate in the 2017 election, please review the candidates and submit your choices on the voting page. MediaWiki message delivery ( talk) 18:42, 3 December 2017 (UTC)
Hello Jerry, I found some of your work off Wikipedia interesting (particularly regarding the British Empire and the Irish Question, though I don't agree with your opposition to Marxism-Leninism. Lenin had no British links). You may find the following areas for investigation intriguing; the Grand Orient of Russia’s Peoples (whose members led the liberal February Revolution in Russia) and the fact that the last Secretary General of that group, Alexander Halpern, worked as a subversive spy for the Brits in the United States to get you into World War II (as part of British Security Co-ordination). The machinations of this group are laid out in the excellent book Desperate Deception: British Covert Operations in the United States, 1939–44. Obviously, the Empire is still up to its old tricks today with the likes of Christopher Steele trying to set the fires of a Russia vs. Anglophile America global conflict. Keep up the good work. Claíomh Solais ( talk) 00:07, 18 December 2017 (UTC)
Hello, JerryRussell. Voting in the 2018 Arbitration Committee elections is now open until 23.59 on Sunday, 3 December. All users who registered an account before Sunday, 28 October 2018, made at least 150 mainspace edits before Thursday, 1 November 2018 and are not currently blocked are eligible to vote. Users with alternate accounts may only vote once.
The Arbitration Committee is the panel of editors responsible for conducting the Wikipedia arbitration process. It has the authority to impose binding solutions to disputes between editors, primarily for serious conduct disputes the community has been unable to resolve. This includes the authority to impose site bans, topic bans, editing restrictions, and other measures needed to maintain our editing environment. The arbitration policy describes the Committee's roles and responsibilities in greater detail.
If you wish to participate in the 2018 election, please review the candidates and submit your choices on the voting page. MediaWiki message delivery ( talk) 18:42, 19 November 2018 (UTC)
Hi Jerry, I hope you have been doing well. I kind of hate to pull you back in here, but there's an issue at ANI (see this) where someone is claiming that despicable me ran you out of here. I could use your help here. Thanks. ♦ J. Johnson (JJ) ( talk) 00:02, 14 March 2020 (UTC)
Hello, I saw your recent edits on Herbert Wigwe. The edits that you restored are the work of a long-term vandal who uses self-published sources to promote hoaxes about nonexistent people. For example, see this article that implicates the fictional Edwin Symonowicz in the Sandy Hook school shooting, or this bit of silly nonsense. I suggest googling "Edwin Symonowicz" to see more of this. It should be obvious from articles such as "Minister of Arts and Culture, Mrs Hannatu Musawa Resign Now!!!" that 9newsng isn't a credible source. Spicy ( talk) 23:56, 14 February 2024 (UTC)